Decarbing - Before and After Rotor Pics
01-16-2013, 10:04 AM
#101
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I don't see what the benefit of getting the carbon out is.....if you cant get the carbon from around and behind the seals there is no point.
also, not sure if I overlooked it, but getting the carbon off is the same concept of cleaning your hot skillet with water, it will remove carbon immediatly from the temp change
also, not sure if I overlooked it, but getting the carbon off is the same concept of cleaning your hot skillet with water, it will remove carbon immediatly from the temp change
Last edited by RIWWP; 01-16-2013 at 10:06 AM.
01-16-2013, 10:15 AM
#102
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No I don't believe so. IIRC the accusations were that he basically regurgitates work and data published on other websites, etc. But people were afraid to call him out since he was a vendor and a mod and then those who did were banned.
01-16-2013, 10:41 AM
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In that theoretical test, the tune and fuel trims affect both rotors and the water does not. One will run leaner, one will run richer. Consistently. That's the problem you need to figure out. Perhaps just make them both run way rich? Do you move it so that one is perfect and the other is fairly rich? Do you move it so one is normal and the other is lean? Etc...
01-16-2013, 12:34 PM
#110
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If anyone has any suggestions for something else to try that would be reasonable for everyone to have access to, go ahead with the suggestion. I'm otherwise done, and will be putting in the new plugs and doing the oil flush this weekend, and will send a sample out for testing for water/contamination.
Like I've mentioned before. On Direct injection piston engines - water/seafoam/BG/ BK/MOC did absolutely nothing for heavy carbon removal resulting in significant misfires. GM top engine cleaner was found to be most effective.
01-16-2013, 12:50 PM
#112
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Same method you did with water. I've done a combination too. Soak for an hour(in some cases I let it sit overnight too), giving it a spin halfway, then administering lightly while someone revs ~3k. It's up to you how crazy you wanna go.
I'd try ~3oz in each chamber as a soak. Then about the same administered through both the LIM.
Note: This **** reaks! Don't breathe it in. Make sure your angry neighbor isn't around too.
I'd try ~3oz in each chamber as a soak. Then about the same administered through both the LIM.
Note: This **** reaks! Don't breathe it in. Make sure your angry neighbor isn't around too.
01-16-2013, 12:58 PM
#113
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I don't actually have any angry neighbors. I get along with all of them. They just aren't as sure about the young guy with the sports cars, and generating smoke clouds doesn't help much 
Hmm, not sure how I'd do that one then. Couldn't do it even near our house.
Hmm, not sure how I'd do that one then. Couldn't do it even near our house.
01-16-2013, 01:05 PM
#114
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Outside your should be okay. I've just done it in the shop with the exhaust fans running. When you give it some revs and the hose(s) pop off, or drive out the door it makes the shop smell.
We usually did it outside cause it lingers in the shop, you should be fine. Just wanted to give you a heads up that it's more intense than seafoam.
We usually did it outside cause it lingers in the shop, you should be fine. Just wanted to give you a heads up that it's more intense than seafoam.
01-16-2013, 01:39 PM
#115
there's no such thing as a soak. As soon as the rotor face comes across the port openings any excess liquid will flow out or be pushed out. This is one of the reasons why vehicles with cat converters need to have them disconnected before doing this, but essentially even catless midpipes should also be separated at the exhaust manifold outlet. You will also want to have a catch container underneath the open flange connection because whatever you use will pump right through the engine and out the exhaust. If you don't break the connection the exhaust will fill up and then burn/ignite this excess fluid within the pipe when you start the engine.
01-16-2013, 01:44 PM
#116
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Agreed, plenty just ends up burning off in the exhaust. 'Soak' is more of a relative term than a strictly accurate one. I would guess that only the lowest of the 6 apex seals actually has a chance at actually 'soaking' in the seafoam.
That test was to show what actually happens with the carbon in the typical method people use.
That test was to show what actually happens with the carbon in the typical method people use.
01-16-2013, 02:44 PM
#117
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Agreed, Team + RIWWP. I believe the soak method applies really only to piston engines to saturate carbon on top of the piston(and ideally break-down the carbon). A thorough soak would be way too time consuming on a rotary, and would be more susceptible to a hydro-lock condition. Not to mention all the liquid being pushed out into the exhaust upon start-up.
Which leads me to believe a soak is for cleaning the top of the piston, and an engine running scenario being administered through vacuum ports was ideally for the valves that were caked in carbon that I witnessed.
But that's apples to oranges!
Which leads me to believe a soak is for cleaning the top of the piston, and an engine running scenario being administered through vacuum ports was ideally for the valves that were caked in carbon that I witnessed.
But that's apples to oranges!
01-16-2013, 03:32 PM
#118
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Here is the Mazda decarb procedure. It is different in several points, including that it doesn't use a liquid cleaner, and it apparently influences the OMP, probably to inject much more oil for a short duration? Unknown what the details of that step is. The spray would indeed have more success getting applied to the rotors and seals, as it would be gaseous and drawn in by the vacuum.
In theory, the spray part could be achieved, though it seems heavily mitigated spraying against hoses and LIM walls? Would be more effective through a spark plug hole, however would add a separate problem of throwing it back out the plug hole. Possible though. Hmm.
Well, there is no real reason to believe that this WOULDN'T work, since carb cleaner does indeed strip carbon from metal when pressurized. A test wouldn't really prove anything different. It would need a pre/post compression test really for results. And it has the possibility of chunked carbon locking the engine. It would explain a difference between these methods and Mazda's though.
In theory, the spray part could be achieved, though it seems heavily mitigated spraying against hoses and LIM walls? Would be more effective through a spark plug hole, however would add a separate problem of throwing it back out the plug hole. Possible though. Hmm.
Well, there is no real reason to believe that this WOULDN'T work, since carb cleaner does indeed strip carbon from metal when pressurized. A test wouldn't really prove anything different. It would need a pre/post compression test really for results. And it has the possibility of chunked carbon locking the engine. It would explain a difference between these methods and Mazda's though.
A - CARBON REMOVAL PROCEDURE
WARNING:
PLEASE USE CAUTION WHEN USING ENGINE CLEANER.
WEAR EYE PROTECTION AND GLOVES WHEN HANDLING ENGINE CLEANER.
ENGINE CLEANER IS FLAMMABLE.
NOTE:
An assistant may be necessary while performing this procedure.
Approximately half a can of engine cleaner will be used per vehicle during this repair.
1. Start engine and warm to operating temperature. Turn engine off.
2. Cleaner kit comes with engine cleaner (A) and engine cleaner spray hose (B).
NOTE:
Engine cleaner spray hose (B) is not used for this procedure and can be discarded.
The can of engine cleaner (A) will have a red plastic spray tube attached to it. This red spray tube will be used for this procedure.
3. Cut a piece of electrical tape 2" (5cm) long and wrap around the end of the red spray tube.
4. Cut a length of 1/8" inside diameter (ID) vacuum hose (obtained locally) to 27" (70cm). Insert tape wrapped end of red spray tube into vacuum hose and use a tie wrap to hold in place.
5. Disconnect Eccentric Shaft Position Sensor (ESPS) B1-27 connector.
NOTE:
This will cut fuel injection and spark while performing the procedure.
6. Disconnect the secondary air injection pump connector B1-04.
7. Remove the front vacuum plug or PCV vacuum hose from the passenger side of the lower intake manifold.
NOTE:
2006 model year and later vehicles have PCV vacuum hoses attached to these ports for the PCV system. Disconnect these hoses from the lower intake manifold ports one at a time when performing this procedure. These hoses do not need to be plugged once disconnected.
CAUTION:
DO NOT attempt to service both vacuum ports at the same time. Perform the procedure for the front port, then perform the procedure for the rear port.
8. Attach the vacuum hose end into front port nipple.
NOTE:
Ensure the vacuum hose is securely connected to the nipples to prevent the hose from becoming detached while spraying engine cleaner.
9. Attach the red spray hose end into the spray nozzle of the engine cleaner. Use care not to push down on the nozzle when inserting to prevent the can from spray cleaner.
10. Have an assistant crank the engine. While cranking the engine, simultaneously depress the spray nozzle of the engine cleaner for a duration of 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, stop spraying and cranking at the same time. DO NOT depress accelerator pedal while cranking.
11. Wait a minimum of 30 seconds and repeat STEP 10 for the same port.
12. Remove the vacuum hose from the lower intake manifold nipple.
13. Reconnect PCV vacuum hose or install vacuum plug to front nipple.
14. Repeat STEPS 8-13 for rear nipple.
15. Allow the engine cleaner to soak for at least 1 hour before starting engine.
16. Connect ESPS connector B1-27.
17. Attempt to start engine without depressing accelerator pedal.
18. Keep engine running between 1500-2000 RPM until engine speed has stabilized. Maintain this engine speed until all smoke has dissipated and / or engine has come to full operating temperature.
CAUTION:
Do not race the engine during warm-up, this may cause catalyst damage.
19. Rev engine from idle speed up to 6,000 RPM, then release throttle immediately until RPM returns to idle speed.
20. Repeat 20 times with vehicle in Park (AT) or neutral (MT).
21. Connect M-MDS to vehicle and ID vehicle.
22. Using DATALOGGER, select MOP POS#
23. Perform METERING OIL PUMP (MOP) simulation test.
24. Using DATALOGGER, select MOP POS# and RPM.
Click on MOP POS# PID.
Click on "#" symbol.
Click "finger" symbol.
Click on "+ arrow up" symbol until MOP POS# indicates "60".
25. Allow engine to idle for 15 minutes with MOP POS # at step 60.
NOTE:
Make sure transmission is in NEUTRAL or PARK and all loads OFF (AC, blower etc.), do not touch accelerator pedal during this time or test will abort.
26. Tap accelerator pedal after the 15 minutes have elapsed to abort test. MOP POS# will drop from step #60.
27. Turn engine off.
28. Connect the secondary air injection pump connector B1-04.
WARNING:
PLEASE USE CAUTION WHEN USING ENGINE CLEANER.
WEAR EYE PROTECTION AND GLOVES WHEN HANDLING ENGINE CLEANER.
ENGINE CLEANER IS FLAMMABLE.
NOTE:
An assistant may be necessary while performing this procedure.
Approximately half a can of engine cleaner will be used per vehicle during this repair.
1. Start engine and warm to operating temperature. Turn engine off.
2. Cleaner kit comes with engine cleaner (A) and engine cleaner spray hose (B).
NOTE:
Engine cleaner spray hose (B) is not used for this procedure and can be discarded.
The can of engine cleaner (A) will have a red plastic spray tube attached to it. This red spray tube will be used for this procedure.
3. Cut a piece of electrical tape 2" (5cm) long and wrap around the end of the red spray tube.
4. Cut a length of 1/8" inside diameter (ID) vacuum hose (obtained locally) to 27" (70cm). Insert tape wrapped end of red spray tube into vacuum hose and use a tie wrap to hold in place.
5. Disconnect Eccentric Shaft Position Sensor (ESPS) B1-27 connector.
NOTE:
This will cut fuel injection and spark while performing the procedure.
6. Disconnect the secondary air injection pump connector B1-04.
7. Remove the front vacuum plug or PCV vacuum hose from the passenger side of the lower intake manifold.
NOTE:
2006 model year and later vehicles have PCV vacuum hoses attached to these ports for the PCV system. Disconnect these hoses from the lower intake manifold ports one at a time when performing this procedure. These hoses do not need to be plugged once disconnected.
CAUTION:
DO NOT attempt to service both vacuum ports at the same time. Perform the procedure for the front port, then perform the procedure for the rear port.
8. Attach the vacuum hose end into front port nipple.
NOTE:
Ensure the vacuum hose is securely connected to the nipples to prevent the hose from becoming detached while spraying engine cleaner.
9. Attach the red spray hose end into the spray nozzle of the engine cleaner. Use care not to push down on the nozzle when inserting to prevent the can from spray cleaner.
10. Have an assistant crank the engine. While cranking the engine, simultaneously depress the spray nozzle of the engine cleaner for a duration of 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, stop spraying and cranking at the same time. DO NOT depress accelerator pedal while cranking.
11. Wait a minimum of 30 seconds and repeat STEP 10 for the same port.
12. Remove the vacuum hose from the lower intake manifold nipple.
13. Reconnect PCV vacuum hose or install vacuum plug to front nipple.
14. Repeat STEPS 8-13 for rear nipple.
15. Allow the engine cleaner to soak for at least 1 hour before starting engine.
16. Connect ESPS connector B1-27.
17. Attempt to start engine without depressing accelerator pedal.
18. Keep engine running between 1500-2000 RPM until engine speed has stabilized. Maintain this engine speed until all smoke has dissipated and / or engine has come to full operating temperature.
CAUTION:
Do not race the engine during warm-up, this may cause catalyst damage.
19. Rev engine from idle speed up to 6,000 RPM, then release throttle immediately until RPM returns to idle speed.
20. Repeat 20 times with vehicle in Park (AT) or neutral (MT).
21. Connect M-MDS to vehicle and ID vehicle.
22. Using DATALOGGER, select MOP POS#
23. Perform METERING OIL PUMP (MOP) simulation test.
24. Using DATALOGGER, select MOP POS# and RPM.
Click on MOP POS# PID.
Click on "#" symbol.
Click "finger" symbol.
Click on "+ arrow up" symbol until MOP POS# indicates "60".
25. Allow engine to idle for 15 minutes with MOP POS # at step 60.
NOTE:
Make sure transmission is in NEUTRAL or PARK and all loads OFF (AC, blower etc.), do not touch accelerator pedal during this time or test will abort.
26. Tap accelerator pedal after the 15 minutes have elapsed to abort test. MOP POS# will drop from step #60.
27. Turn engine off.
28. Connect the secondary air injection pump connector B1-04.
01-16-2013, 03:59 PM
#119
it's a liquid cleaner, just in an aerosol spray can. It's likely similar to Sea Foam Spray.
They are holding the MOP at the maximum duty cycle at idle after the cleaning to put oil back on the rotor seals. The procedure will remove most if not all liquid oil and the rotor seals and will initially have lower compression as a result. Oil is bad for cats, another reason it should be disconnected during the process.
.
They are holding the MOP at the maximum duty cycle at idle after the cleaning to put oil back on the rotor seals. The procedure will remove most if not all liquid oil and the rotor seals and will initially have lower compression as a result. Oil is bad for cats, another reason it should be disconnected during the process.
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 01-16-2013 at 04:42 PM.
01-16-2013, 04:00 PM
#120
01-16-2013, 04:06 PM
#121
If you are applying the cleaner through the two nipples on the LIM this is after the intake valves. The APV valves are on isolated runners. The VDI and SSV valve are at the top of the LIM/UIM interface above the nipples. The only way to effective clean the SSV and APV intake valves is to remove them. SSV and VDI not so bad, removing the APVs requires removing the entire LIM. Mazda says to pull the engine for this, a few people have managed to lift and shove the engine far enough to the driver side to have enough room to withdraw the LIM and APV valve barrels out without pulling the engine.
01-16-2013, 04:08 PM
#122
Step #25 seems a little long. 15 minutes with mop at 60? That's a lot of oil for the cat...
I've actually made a map where the mop was set to 60 at idle (was checking lines for leaks) and that is a lot of freaking blue smoke, no way that can be good for the cat.
I've actually made a map where the mop was set to 60 at idle (was checking lines for leaks) and that is a lot of freaking blue smoke, no way that can be good for the cat.
01-16-2013, 04:30 PM
#123
If you are applying the cleaner through the two nipples on the LIM this is after the intake valves. The APV valves are on isolated runners. The VDI and SSV valve are at the top of the LIM/UIM interface above the nipples. The only way to effective clean the SSV and APV intake valves is to remove them. SSV and VDI not so bad, removing the APVs requires removing the entire LIM. Mazda says to pull the engine for this, a few people have managed to lift and shove the engine far enough to the driver side to have enough room to withdraw the LIM and APV valve barrels out without pulling the engine.
Since most people on here already think I'm looney, here goes...
When I "seafoamed" my engine last time, I loaded a map I made where the engine idles at 3k rpms (+185*f coolant temp dependent, fans set to high at same temp) and all the intake vales open @2.7k, mop set to 40 across the board. I spray deep creep thru the brake booster line connection on the UIM. When spraying the rpms jump up and down opening and closing the valves at the same time, after spraying for about a min or two I have someone kill the engine. then I do the normal, disconnect ESS, add 3-4oz of normal seafoam to each chamber via the LIM service ports. Let it soak for a hour, and while waiting, reconnect everything and reload my normal map.
Would something like that help remove oil gunk/build-up off the intake valves with out having to remove them?
Oh yeah... Better put my Flame suit on.
