Side and peripheral exhaust ports
01-14-2015, 08:00 PM
#76
maybe someone can explain to us how it makes sense vs a 13B with a different rear gear ratio. Granted there was a substantial difference in boost psig between these two, but I have yet to see anything that proves a hybrid is anything more than either a complex engineering exercise in futility or huge waste of money just so you can be "different" ....
BorgWarner EFR 8374 IWG Dyno Results - RX7Club.com
BorgWarner EFR 8374 IWG Dyno Results - RX7Club.com
01-14-2015, 08:42 PM
#77
maybe someone can explain to us how it makes sense vs a 13B with a different rear gear ratio. Granted there was a substantial difference in boost psig between these two, but I have yet to see anything that proves a hybrid is anything more than either a complex engineering exercise in futility or huge waste of money just so you can be "different" ....
BorgWarner EFR 8374 IWG Dyno Results - RX7Club.com
BorgWarner EFR 8374 IWG Dyno Results - RX7Club.com
01-15-2015, 02:47 PM
#78
Release the twins.
maybe someone can explain to us how it makes sense vs a 13B with a different rear gear ratio. Granted there was a substantial difference in boost psig between these two, but I have yet to see anything that proves a hybrid is anything more than either a complex engineering exercise in futility or huge waste of money just so you can be "different" ....
BorgWarner EFR 8374 IWG Dyno Results - RX7Club.com
BorgWarner EFR 8374 IWG Dyno Results - RX7Club.com
to add exhaust ports, would be a waste. its the peri intake, and peri exhaust that make up to 400 at the flywheel. you're lost, and way off target bringing a boosted dyno into thread about porting that would benefit the n/a crowd.
stock port Renesis built & tested by Daryl Drummond is a vague discription of an engine that made more horsepower then stock by unknown means.. any info? hardly apples to apples unless the dyno i posted is flyhweel horsepower as well... which it doesn't disclose.
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 01-15-2015 at 02:56 PM.
01-15-2015, 03:22 PM
#79
Funny that you didn't question the others ....
Regardless, it was hand rebuilt/fitted with OEM parts, not ported, OE intake manifold, Pro Formula Mazda short tube header, OE injectors, OE ignition coils, gasoline fuel, MoTeC ecu, OE water pump, increased oil pressure, probably race pulleys. Not sure about apex seals, but that's more a long term durability impact than power. There used to be a pic on his website that shows the basic Renesis dyno setup. He used to build the PFM Renesis engines. I have multiple graphs ranging 265 - 271 fwhp from many years back. This one is probably as good as it gets. He says about 10 hp more maybe with porting. Eric Myer has posted graphs from him on the forum. WTBRotary posted his 265 fwhp rebuild graph from early last year on the forum as well.
I ran all these ideas in the ground with DD to the point that he won't even really discuss it with me any more. I even asked Nazdatrix about a header mounting flange and they (did me a favor) refused. Eventually I came to accept that he knows more about it than you or I ever will. If that's not enough, even Mazda realized the inevitable limitations, hence the proposed 16B ...
Regardless, it was hand rebuilt/fitted with OEM parts, not ported, OE intake manifold, Pro Formula Mazda short tube header, OE injectors, OE ignition coils, gasoline fuel, MoTeC ecu, OE water pump, increased oil pressure, probably race pulleys. Not sure about apex seals, but that's more a long term durability impact than power. There used to be a pic on his website that shows the basic Renesis dyno setup. He used to build the PFM Renesis engines. I have multiple graphs ranging 265 - 271 fwhp from many years back. This one is probably as good as it gets. He says about 10 hp more maybe with porting. Eric Myer has posted graphs from him on the forum. WTBRotary posted his 265 fwhp rebuild graph from early last year on the forum as well.
I ran all these ideas in the ground with DD to the point that he won't even really discuss it with me any more. I even asked Nazdatrix about a header mounting flange and they (did me a favor) refused. Eventually I came to accept that he knows more about it than you or I ever will. If that's not enough, even Mazda realized the inevitable limitations, hence the proposed 16B ...
01-16-2015, 04:15 AM
#80
Tried to google a bit, where do you source these Drummond built engines? Was curious about price.
01-16-2015, 10:31 AM
#81
Release the twins.
i still don't see how the pp intake side exhaust engine making 264( premuably rear wheel) is better then the 271 flywheel of DD's stock port engine.
230rwhp was made by defined on a 13b-re using side intake and peri exhaust.
i want the optionsopen to be able to shut the side exhaust and run it like a 13b, or vise versa, and the same for the intake, run side, or peri, or both.
this has never been tried?
230rwhp was made by defined on a 13b-re using side intake and peri exhaust.
i want the optionsopen to be able to shut the side exhaust and run it like a 13b, or vise versa, and the same for the intake, run side, or peri, or both.
this has never been tried?
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 01-16-2015 at 01:47 PM.
01-16-2015, 02:54 PM
#83
Closing out side exhaust on demand is pointless, and will collect heat which is going to cause your side seals and side seal springs to fail, and I don't see the point is closing off the peripheral exhaust.
What you're describing with the intake has been done. It's pretty common with semi p port setups. I've only seen very few with full 41mm+ p ports working in conjunction with the side ports though.
The only motor that I know of that staged both ports of a 4 port with a full p port and timed their opening etc reved to 16k RPM, had the bearings milled out and replaced with needle bearings, and made 500HP with 200 ftlb torque in a hill climb rail car. It basically burned 2 stoke as fuel to keep up with heat and lubrication... I forget what the ratio of 2 stroke to fuel was, but it was insane.... like 25% or something. The motor itself was on a stand a couple years ago at deals gap. The guy that ran the car had died, and they were showing off his motor.
If you're not planning to rev this thing to the stratosphere then you're not going to be able to make good use of all the porting.
What you're describing with the intake has been done. It's pretty common with semi p port setups. I've only seen very few with full 41mm+ p ports working in conjunction with the side ports though.
The only motor that I know of that staged both ports of a 4 port with a full p port and timed their opening etc reved to 16k RPM, had the bearings milled out and replaced with needle bearings, and made 500HP with 200 ftlb torque in a hill climb rail car. It basically burned 2 stoke as fuel to keep up with heat and lubrication... I forget what the ratio of 2 stroke to fuel was, but it was insane.... like 25% or something. The motor itself was on a stand a couple years ago at deals gap. The guy that ran the car had died, and they were showing off his motor.
If you're not planning to rev this thing to the stratosphere then you're not going to be able to make good use of all the porting.
01-16-2015, 03:34 PM
#84
Release the twins.
Closing out side exhaust on demand is pointless, and will collect heat which is going to cause your side seals and side seal springs to fail, and I don't see the point is closing off the peripheral exhaust.
What you're describing with the intake has been done. It's pretty common with semi p port setups. I've only seen very few with full 41mm+ p ports working in conjunction with the side ports though.
The only motor that I know of that staged both ports of a 4 port with a full p port and timed their opening etc reved to 16k RPM, had the bearings milled out and replaced with needle bearings, and made 500HP with 200 ftlb torque in a hill climb rail car. It basically burned 2 stoke as fuel to keep up with heat and lubrication... I forget what the ratio of 2 stroke to fuel was, but it was insane.... like 25% or something. The motor itself was on a stand a couple years ago at deals gap. The guy that ran the car had died, and they were showing off his motor.
If you're not planning to rev this thing to the stratosphere then you're not going to be able to make good use of all the porting.
What you're describing with the intake has been done. It's pretty common with semi p port setups. I've only seen very few with full 41mm+ p ports working in conjunction with the side ports though.
The only motor that I know of that staged both ports of a 4 port with a full p port and timed their opening etc reved to 16k RPM, had the bearings milled out and replaced with needle bearings, and made 500HP with 200 ftlb torque in a hill climb rail car. It basically burned 2 stoke as fuel to keep up with heat and lubrication... I forget what the ratio of 2 stroke to fuel was, but it was insane.... like 25% or something. The motor itself was on a stand a couple years ago at deals gap. The guy that ran the car had died, and they were showing off his motor.
If you're not planning to rev this thing to the stratosphere then you're not going to be able to make good use of all the porting.
will collect heat which is going to cause your side seals and side seal springs to fail, and I don't see the point is closing off the peripheral exhaust.
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 01-16-2015 at 05:12 PM.
01-16-2015, 07:11 PM
#86
Drummond Engines 541.761.5520
typical race engine is likely around $10k, maybe $5k more with a dry sump oil system.
for reference a full on 13B PP with slide throttle intake, Motec ecu, etc cranking out mid-300 hp is going to set you back at least $40k, probably closer to $50k.
01-17-2015, 12:06 PM
#87
Release the twins.
realistically, building a pp short block is about 4k up to 6k for ceramic apex seals.
i could sub out the intake fab for 2,000( i know an profession welder who would follow my design)
the exhaust work i can do, but i could also have that out sourced for around 1000.
the motec and slide throttle is nice, but 330 hp can be done with a simple carb,"
i'm going adaptronic. what ever model lets me set injection end time.
ok so now i'm up to 10,000.
to get to almost 400 hp you could add a 2 piece shaft for ~1500, and higher rpm balancing, oil mods/ for another 1000.
after i do all that, you're saying my 350 hp 13b is worth 40-50k?
no it's not, unless i build 1000 of them and they have a great reputation, the reputation cost 40-50k.
here is 40k well spent:
4-Rotor, P-Port, New Rotor Housings, Race Bearings, Ceramic 2mm Apex Seals, All New HD Stationary Gears: $39,925
Uses late style 13b side housings, all side housings are reconditioned and re-nitrated for brand new finish. 9.7:1 rotors, fitted with all new side seals, corner seals, oil retaining rings, oil o-rings, coolant o-rings and springs. Ultra high performance 2mm Ceramic apex seals with brand new ceramic tip springs. Brand new rotor housings, machined and fitted with full peripheral port, "race" port exhaust. Fully dynamically balanced and blueprinted. Extra clearance deep groove race bearings for high rpm safety. Heavy duty extreme use stationary gears. 630+ hp, aggressive idle. 9,800 recommended limit, 10,000 rpm max potential.
http://definedautoworks.com/4rotorengines.html
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 01-17-2015 at 12:17 PM.
01-17-2015, 12:44 PM
#88
You're comparing an orange to an apple. Do you think a 4-rotor from Rick Engman can be had for that cost? Do you believe a drag motor will handle lap after lap abuse at a road track? Do you understand the concept of racing rule allowance limitations? You're silly reply has so many flaws it's not worth to time to address.
I simply provided comparative engine costs from one professional builder of known racing reputation to answer a specific question. I never implied or stated anything else.
Be sure to let us know when the engine you built reliably wins professional motorsport championships
I simply provided comparative engine costs from one professional builder of known racing reputation to answer a specific question. I never implied or stated anything else.
Be sure to let us know when the engine you built reliably wins professional motorsport championships
01-17-2015, 01:26 PM
#89
Release the twins.
You're comparing an orange to an apple. Do you think a 4-rotor from Rick Engman can be had for that cost? Do you believe a drag motor will handle lap after lap abuse at a road track? Do you understand the concept of racing rule allowance limitations? You're silly reply has so many flaws it's not worth to time to address.
I simply provided comparative engine costs from one professional builder of known racing reputation to answer a specific question. I never implied or stated anything else.
Be sure to let us know when the engine you built reliably wins professional motorsport championships
I simply provided comparative engine costs from one professional builder of known racing reputation to answer a specific question. I never implied or stated anything else.
Be sure to let us know when the engine you built reliably wins professional motorsport championships
the 4 rotor from defined is not what i would consider a drag motor. is this what you intended to say?
Last edited by lastphaseofthis; 01-17-2015 at 01:29 PM.
01-17-2015, 05:09 PM
#90
he's a pro race engine builder
Drummond Engines 541.761.5520
typical race engine is likely around $10k, maybe $5k more with a dry sump oil system.
for reference a full on 13B PP with slide throttle intake, Motec ecu, etc cranking out mid-300 hp is going to set you back at least $40k, probably closer to $50k.
Drummond Engines 541.761.5520
typical race engine is likely around $10k, maybe $5k more with a dry sump oil system.
for reference a full on 13B PP with slide throttle intake, Motec ecu, etc cranking out mid-300 hp is going to set you back at least $40k, probably closer to $50k.
Thanks.
01-18-2015, 05:09 PM
#92
the problem there is i do not aim to put my hands in of professional racer, i dont have those contacts. my aim is get 330+ and still be able to drive it everyday.
the 4 rotor from defined is not what i would consider a drag motor. is this what you intended to say?
the 4 rotor from defined is not what i would consider a drag motor. is this what you intended to say?
02-23-2015, 05:46 PM
#97
Also, to update this thread- my exhaust ports were successfully welded shut and the irons are awaiting mill work and TiN coating. Will post pics when I have them. Also, having a custom oil pan fabricated by a vendor who shall remain nameless until this build is complete. Next month, the Renesis rotors will be getting machined by Pettit Racing to accept 2mm RX-7 seals, then long block assembly can begin.
