n00b With a Quest For Huge Power
11-29-2011, 03:41 PM
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n00b With a Quest For Huge Power
Some background on me:
Started as a Mazda kid (first car was an 01 Tribute), had 3 Volvos, and now I want back into the Mazda world with a rotary. Ditched my 2-month search for an FD RX-7 because it's just not worth the stupid big money to get one. I always liked the RX-8 since it came out, so I've set my sights on getting one. They're cheap and it's a rotary - plus it looks awesome. Looking for an 04-ish since they're cheaper. I'm looking to make it into a high-power summer car, so I thought this topic area would be a good place to start my quest for huge power before I get too far in and find out I've run up the wrong tree. I plan to send the motor off to BDC Motorsports for porting and the like as Brian seems to be the top choice for making big-power rotaries.
Now for the questions:
I know the FD motors can take HUGE turbos - I've got a GT4202R sitting around and I was planning it use it with a rotary. Can a built Renesis motor take this much turbo, or am I going to be picking apex seals outta my exhaust after 500 miles?
WRT the the above question, would I be better off swapping a built TurboII RX-7 motor in over the Renesis?
Is it worth keeping the stock ECU, or binning it for a standalone? I've got a spare MegaSquirt 3 from a past project, so cost-wise the MS would make more sense. My worry is the mess I'll have to go through with the stock CAN bus. Is the stock ECU good for tuning (AccessPORT seems to be the device for it?), or will stuff like bridgeporting and big turbos make it unsuitable?
Can the RX-8 6 sp. take the abuse of what will likely be around 600whp in any form? I was planning to have it cryotreated, but I fear even then I'll be busting gears and syncros. Do I have any alternatives?
What's the highest "safe" RPM these motors can be run at? I've searched and have seen anything from 9.5K to 14K
Doubt I'd spool before 5.5K, so the higher I can go the better.
That's all I can think of for now. Pretty interesting first post, no?
Started as a Mazda kid (first car was an 01 Tribute), had 3 Volvos, and now I want back into the Mazda world with a rotary. Ditched my 2-month search for an FD RX-7 because it's just not worth the stupid big money to get one. I always liked the RX-8 since it came out, so I've set my sights on getting one. They're cheap and it's a rotary - plus it looks awesome. Looking for an 04-ish since they're cheaper. I'm looking to make it into a high-power summer car, so I thought this topic area would be a good place to start my quest for huge power before I get too far in and find out I've run up the wrong tree. I plan to send the motor off to BDC Motorsports for porting and the like as Brian seems to be the top choice for making big-power rotaries.
Now for the questions:
I know the FD motors can take HUGE turbos - I've got a GT4202R sitting around and I was planning it use it with a rotary. Can a built Renesis motor take this much turbo, or am I going to be picking apex seals outta my exhaust after 500 miles?
WRT the the above question, would I be better off swapping a built TurboII RX-7 motor in over the Renesis?
Is it worth keeping the stock ECU, or binning it for a standalone? I've got a spare MegaSquirt 3 from a past project, so cost-wise the MS would make more sense. My worry is the mess I'll have to go through with the stock CAN bus. Is the stock ECU good for tuning (AccessPORT seems to be the device for it?), or will stuff like bridgeporting and big turbos make it unsuitable?
Can the RX-8 6 sp. take the abuse of what will likely be around 600whp in any form? I was planning to have it cryotreated, but I fear even then I'll be busting gears and syncros. Do I have any alternatives?
What's the highest "safe" RPM these motors can be run at? I've searched and have seen anything from 9.5K to 14K
Doubt I'd spool before 5.5K, so the higher I can go the better.That's all I can think of for now. Pretty interesting first post, no?
11-29-2011, 03:47 PM
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Sigh.
Get ready for flames.
You have to be pretty serious and invest plenty of cash to make sure you can safely top 300whp. Topping 400whp has only been accomplished by 2 people that I know of, both of them have numerous trial and error, with each error costing them another engine. The primary limiting factor of the Renesis is that the exhaust ports are in the side plates, and can't be enlarged much more than they already are, where as the RX-7 exhaust ports in the housing could be enlarged quite a bit.
This engine can not take much abuse at all. If you want huge power, go back to the RX-7 search, pull up $15k+ to swap an FD motor into an 8, or $25k+ for a 20b into an 8.
But this has been beaten to death by noob after noob after noob after drooling noob. Searching and researching has apparently been done somewhat, since you know who BDC is. But not enough, because you didn't figure out what the main obvious challenge for our engine is.
Edit:
Unless you are lucky, my answer is going to be about the most civilized you will get.
This is why:
Get ready for flames.
You have to be pretty serious and invest plenty of cash to make sure you can safely top 300whp. Topping 400whp has only been accomplished by 2 people that I know of, both of them have numerous trial and error, with each error costing them another engine. The primary limiting factor of the Renesis is that the exhaust ports are in the side plates, and can't be enlarged much more than they already are, where as the RX-7 exhaust ports in the housing could be enlarged quite a bit.
This engine can not take much abuse at all. If you want huge power, go back to the RX-7 search, pull up $15k+ to swap an FD motor into an 8, or $25k+ for a 20b into an 8.
But this has been beaten to death by noob after noob after noob after drooling noob. Searching and researching has apparently been done somewhat, since you know who BDC is. But not enough, because you didn't figure out what the main obvious challenge for our engine is.
Edit:
Unless you are lucky, my answer is going to be about the most civilized you will get.
This is why:
This involves several issues. The first being that you can't see beyond your own immediate needs and wants. This is not Wiki8Club. It took many of us years and years of involvement and reading to amass the knowledge.
Imagine somebody coming here daily, in fact it is often multiple people daily, asking if not demanding the same information over and over again. We are not your on demand servants. We are people just like you with other priorities and demands in our lives, limited time, our own personal interests for being here, etc. Why should we spend that time catering to people that come here seeking instant gratification?
That leaves us with two options. We can either ignore you completely or we can tell that the info is here if you bother to make the effort. However, over several years of telling people this you eventually get fed up dealing with the continuous stream of people seeking instant gratification yet you still would rather point them in the right direction so you just bark at them to get the point across. Imagine someone coming to your house, going to your living room, pulling their pants down, and taking a dump right there on the carpet just because they didn't know any better. You might be annoyed and yet also understanding because they didn't know any better. Now imagine this being a different person doing this every day. It wouldn't be long before you just as soon they go away and never come back.
Almost every day there is some clueless dolt posting a tech or troubleshooting question in the DiY area, despite there being a sticky thread at the top saying to only post threads there with DIY instructions and subsequent discussion of same. The real issue is that people think they are free to just come here and do as they damn well please and there's no need for etiquette, rules, structure, or organization unless it serves their own personal interest.
Well guess what? We're not here to cater to new uninformed people that come in here trampling all over everything regardless if they're ignorant, just don't care, or whatever. This is like any social community and so if you make waves you better expect to deal with it. If you don't like it then get the f' out because the established community could care less about some newbie whining about not getting what they want immediately. We do care about you clogging up the search engine with useless threads on already established subjects, which there is a dedicated thread on this very subject in this same forum area no less. It took me 10 minutes to explain this. Now imagine multiple people daily requiring it, so you make a Sticky thread at the top that says "read this first" and yet every single new person just like yourself thinks they are beyond trying to fit in properly so that this forum operates smoothly for all of us.
You probably don't read Japanese, but the line in my sig is a well known Japanese proverb that reads "the nail that sticks out gets hammered". You made yourself that nail.
Imagine somebody coming here daily, in fact it is often multiple people daily, asking if not demanding the same information over and over again. We are not your on demand servants. We are people just like you with other priorities and demands in our lives, limited time, our own personal interests for being here, etc. Why should we spend that time catering to people that come here seeking instant gratification?
That leaves us with two options. We can either ignore you completely or we can tell that the info is here if you bother to make the effort. However, over several years of telling people this you eventually get fed up dealing with the continuous stream of people seeking instant gratification yet you still would rather point them in the right direction so you just bark at them to get the point across. Imagine someone coming to your house, going to your living room, pulling their pants down, and taking a dump right there on the carpet just because they didn't know any better. You might be annoyed and yet also understanding because they didn't know any better. Now imagine this being a different person doing this every day. It wouldn't be long before you just as soon they go away and never come back.
Almost every day there is some clueless dolt posting a tech or troubleshooting question in the DiY area, despite there being a sticky thread at the top saying to only post threads there with DIY instructions and subsequent discussion of same. The real issue is that people think they are free to just come here and do as they damn well please and there's no need for etiquette, rules, structure, or organization unless it serves their own personal interest.
Well guess what? We're not here to cater to new uninformed people that come in here trampling all over everything regardless if they're ignorant, just don't care, or whatever. This is like any social community and so if you make waves you better expect to deal with it. If you don't like it then get the f' out because the established community could care less about some newbie whining about not getting what they want immediately. We do care about you clogging up the search engine with useless threads on already established subjects, which there is a dedicated thread on this very subject in this same forum area no less. It took me 10 minutes to explain this. Now imagine multiple people daily requiring it, so you make a Sticky thread at the top that says "read this first" and yet every single new person just like yourself thinks they are beyond trying to fit in properly so that this forum operates smoothly for all of us.
You probably don't read Japanese, but the line in my sig is a well known Japanese proverb that reads "the nail that sticks out gets hammered". You made yourself that nail.
Last edited by RIWWP; 11-29-2011 at 03:49 PM.
11-29-2011, 03:53 PM
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You started off on the wrong foot by saying Cheap. There is no such thing when looking for power. Even less so with an rx8.
The best thing you can do is read every sticky, then every thread in this section, then figure out what you want and post. That's free at least.
11-29-2011, 03:55 PM
#4
I plan to send the motor off to BDC Motorsports for porting and the like as Brian seems to be the top choice for making big-power rotaries.
There are many reputable builders, don't limit your choices based on forum info
Now for the questions:
I know the FD motors can take HUGE turbos - I've got a GT4202R sitting around and I was planning it use it with a rotary. Can a built Renesis motor take this much turbo, or am I going to be picking apex seals outta my exhaust after 500 miles?
A 13b msp is not a REW or RE. Completely different flow characteristics, port locations etc. Even the exhaust pulses are different so the same turbo will have different spooling behaviors etc. What's your budget?
WRT the the above question, would I be better off swapping a built TurboII RX-7 motor in over the Renesis?What's your budget? Again, different engines with different capabilities.
Is it worth keeping the stock ECU, or binning it for a standalone? I've got a spare MegaSquirt 3 from a past project, so cost-wise the MS would make more sense. My worry is the mess I'll have to go through with the stock CAN bus. Is the stock ECU good for tuning (AccessPORT seems to be the device for it?), or will stuff like bridgeporting and big turbos make it unsuitable? MS3= Crap to run our complete engine, electronics and ancillaries.
Can the RX-8 6 sp. take the abuse of what will likely be around 600whp in any form? I was planning to have it cryotreated, but I fear even then I'll be busting gears and syncros. Do I have any alternatives?
It would probably take a tank driving over it better. What's your budget?
What's the highest "safe" RPM these motors can be run at? I've searched and have seen anything from 9.5K to 14K Doubt I'd spool before 5.5K, so the higher I can go the better.
Build, balancing and rotor material dependant. Another point: at what Rpms will the ports "choke"? What's your budget?
That's all I can think of for now. Pretty interesting first post, no?
There are many reputable builders, don't limit your choices based on forum info
Now for the questions:
I know the FD motors can take HUGE turbos - I've got a GT4202R sitting around and I was planning it use it with a rotary. Can a built Renesis motor take this much turbo, or am I going to be picking apex seals outta my exhaust after 500 miles?
A 13b msp is not a REW or RE. Completely different flow characteristics, port locations etc. Even the exhaust pulses are different so the same turbo will have different spooling behaviors etc. What's your budget?
WRT the the above question, would I be better off swapping a built TurboII RX-7 motor in over the Renesis?What's your budget? Again, different engines with different capabilities.
Is it worth keeping the stock ECU, or binning it for a standalone? I've got a spare MegaSquirt 3 from a past project, so cost-wise the MS would make more sense. My worry is the mess I'll have to go through with the stock CAN bus. Is the stock ECU good for tuning (AccessPORT seems to be the device for it?), or will stuff like bridgeporting and big turbos make it unsuitable? MS3= Crap to run our complete engine, electronics and ancillaries.
Can the RX-8 6 sp. take the abuse of what will likely be around 600whp in any form? I was planning to have it cryotreated, but I fear even then I'll be busting gears and syncros. Do I have any alternatives?
It would probably take a tank driving over it better. What's your budget?
What's the highest "safe" RPM these motors can be run at? I've searched and have seen anything from 9.5K to 14K
Doubt I'd spool before 5.5K, so the higher I can go the better.Build, balancing and rotor material dependant. Another point: at what Rpms will the ports "choke"? What's your budget?
That's all I can think of for now. Pretty interesting first post, no?
.I'm saying that because your goals are unrealistic under human budgets, especially if reliability is a concern.
With that said... search some more while you enjoy your ride as it is. After that come back with a "build plan" and maybe you won't get flamed as you'll soon be here in this thread.
With a budget and a solid plan asking for advice won't be as difficult.
For now..
Search.
11-29-2011, 04:59 PM
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Damn...didn't think I walked into that much of a flame-pile...
Anyhow - prob. should address some stuff. Budget = irrelevant. I don't base my builds on a set budget - I buy whatever needs to be bought and whatever the amount is in the end is what it is. I'm cheaping out on the car itself b/c I don't find a point in dropping 15 grand on a car only to have to rip it apart and spend another 20+ grand rebuilding it compared to spending 8 grand or less on a car and then throwing the 20+ at that.
If I drop less then 30K on this, I'd be impressed.
That said, I think I'm bailin' on the Renesis and will just do a TurboII swap. Seems like that's my best bet for making big power.
Anyhow - prob. should address some stuff. Budget = irrelevant. I don't base my builds on a set budget - I buy whatever needs to be bought and whatever the amount is in the end is what it is. I'm cheaping out on the car itself b/c I don't find a point in dropping 15 grand on a car only to have to rip it apart and spend another 20+ grand rebuilding it compared to spending 8 grand or less on a car and then throwing the 20+ at that.
If I drop less then 30K on this, I'd be impressed.
That said, I think I'm bailin' on the Renesis and will just do a TurboII swap. Seems like that's my best bet for making big power.
11-29-2011, 05:04 PM
#7
Release the twins.
Damn...didn't think I walked into that much of a flame-pile...
Anyhow - prob. should address some stuff. Budget = irrelevant. I don't base my builds on a set budget - I buy whatever needs to be bought and whatever the amount is in the end is what it is. I'm cheaping out on the car itself b/c I don't find a point in dropping 15 grand on a car only to have to rip it apart and spend another 20+ grand rebuilding it compared to spending 8 grand or less on a car and then throwing the 20+ at that.
If I drop less then 30K on this, I'd be impressed.
That said, I think I'm bailin' on the Renesis and will just do a TurboII swap. Seems like that's my best bet for making big power.
Anyhow - prob. should address some stuff. Budget = irrelevant. I don't base my builds on a set budget - I buy whatever needs to be bought and whatever the amount is in the end is what it is. I'm cheaping out on the car itself b/c I don't find a point in dropping 15 grand on a car only to have to rip it apart and spend another 20+ grand rebuilding it compared to spending 8 grand or less on a car and then throwing the 20+ at that.
If I drop less then 30K on this, I'd be impressed.
That said, I think I'm bailin' on the Renesis and will just do a TurboII swap. Seems like that's my best bet for making big power.
11-29-2011, 05:14 PM
#9
Damn...didn't think I walked into that much of a flame-pile...
Anyhow - prob. should address some stuff. Budget = irrelevant. I don't base my builds on a set budget - I buy whatever needs to be bought and whatever the amount is in the end is what it is. I'm cheaping out on the car itself b/c I don't find a point in dropping 15 grand on a car only to have to rip it apart and spend another 20+ grand rebuilding it compared to spending 8 grand or less on a car and then throwing the 20+ at that.
If I drop less then 30K on this, I'd be impressed.
That said, I think I'm bailin' on the Renesis and will just do a TurboII swap. Seems like that's my best bet for making big power.
Anyhow - prob. should address some stuff. Budget = irrelevant. I don't base my builds on a set budget - I buy whatever needs to be bought and whatever the amount is in the end is what it is. I'm cheaping out on the car itself b/c I don't find a point in dropping 15 grand on a car only to have to rip it apart and spend another 20+ grand rebuilding it compared to spending 8 grand or less on a car and then throwing the 20+ at that.
If I drop less then 30K on this, I'd be impressed.
That said, I think I'm bailin' on the Renesis and will just do a TurboII swap. Seems like that's my best bet for making big power.
When you say you don't base your build's (plural meaning you've done this before), then only list a Tribute and 3 volvos as previous cars, I.. I just.. Well it makes my head hurt. Know what I mean jellybean?!
If you really want help with this I suggest searching for some builds that have been completed and see where their HP is at. Find a base platform you want to work off of and a target HP. Then go drop your unlimited funds on that and off ya go.
11-29-2011, 05:16 PM
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Good point. In that scenario, I get 2 options - find a longblock on RX-7 Club or ebay; or just buy a new one from Mazda. Second one seems pointless b/c it's effectively taking a brand-new crate motor and ripping it apart to put the better parts in.
I was thinking of that, but even shells are going for 8-10 grand. I can get a high-millage '04 RX-8 for around 8 grand, then re-sell all the stuff I rip out. Only makes more sense, no?
To clear up the prior builds - my current winter beater is a good example. Bought a Volvo wagon for 1200, then dropped $7K on it to build a new motor, re-do the EMS & electrical system, and bulletproof the transmission. I had a goal set and whatever I spent on it to make that goal happen I did.
I looked through a thread about someone doing a 13B-REW swap on here, but I failed to bookmark it...I'll have to find it again.
To clear up the prior builds - my current winter beater is a good example. Bought a Volvo wagon for 1200, then dropped $7K on it to build a new motor, re-do the EMS & electrical system, and bulletproof the transmission. I had a goal set and whatever I spent on it to make that goal happen I did.
I looked through a thread about someone doing a 13B-REW swap on here, but I failed to bookmark it...I'll have to find it again.
Last edited by faulty; 11-29-2011 at 05:20 PM.
11-29-2011, 05:47 PM
#11
The budget comments were just to put you in the right ball park. Of course you can swap time for money to get an idea of the potential downtime.
Your goal of 600rwhp is also a bit unrealistic for a REW or RE engine. Sure they can make that power but for how long? Even race teams aim at way less than that for this very reason.
Your goal of 600rwhp is also a bit unrealistic for a REW or RE engine. Sure they can make that power but for how long? Even race teams aim at way less than that for this very reason.
11-29-2011, 05:58 PM
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600hp is just not gonna happen. Why would you want that much power anyways? These cars are not meant to be fast in a straight line if that's what your aiming for. I would say if your serious about making the most horsepower possible swap the engine for a 20B 3 rotor engine and get a turbo installed along with all the other things that come with that territory and call it complete. Don't know how much power you will make but I'm sure it will be more than you will ever use. I drive my car stock and I still don't use all the power of the car. If you have an unlimited budget then anything is possible. Good luck!
11-29-2011, 07:19 PM
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There's a good size group who are making 500-600whp in FD's, so the motors will do it just fine. Reliable? Not a chance. I'm pretty used to unreliable motors, so I don't think it's an issue for me.
I go to Lime Rock often, so power matters quite a lot to me. When I'm not rolling around in this car, I plan to do time attack with it.
As for the 20B - GL finding one, and more-so, GL finding parts for it. FD motors are easy to get and there's plenty of parts out there for them.
p.s.
I don't get the Knight Rider joke...
I go to Lime Rock often, so power matters quite a lot to me. When I'm not rolling around in this car, I plan to do time attack with it.
As for the 20B - GL finding one, and more-so, GL finding parts for it. FD motors are easy to get and there's plenty of parts out there for them.
p.s.
I don't get the Knight Rider joke...
11-30-2011, 10:33 PM
#19
Boostin'
There's a good size group who are making 500-600whp in FD's, so the motors will do it just fine. Reliable? Not a chance. I'm pretty used to unreliable motors, so I don't think it's an issue for me.
I go to Lime Rock often, so power matters quite a lot to me. When I'm not rolling around in this car, I plan to do time attack with it.
As for the 20B - GL finding one, and more-so, GL finding parts for it. FD motors are easy to get and there's plenty of parts out there for them.
p.s.
I don't get the Knight Rider joke...
I go to Lime Rock often, so power matters quite a lot to me. When I'm not rolling around in this car, I plan to do time attack with it.
As for the 20B - GL finding one, and more-so, GL finding parts for it. FD motors are easy to get and there's plenty of parts out there for them.
p.s.
I don't get the Knight Rider joke...
5-600rwhp is very reliable on FD3S engines. Like anything it just has to be built & tuned correctly.
600+rwhp has been done on Renesis also...
12-05-2011, 08:26 PM
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There's a good size group who are making 500-600whp in FD's, so the motors will do it just fine. Reliable? Not a chance. I'm pretty used to unreliable motors, so I don't think it's an issue for me.
I go to Lime Rock often, so power matters quite a lot to me. When I'm not rolling around in this car, I plan to do time attack with it.
As for the 20B - GL finding one, and more-so, GL finding parts for it. FD motors are easy to get and there's plenty of parts out there for them.
p.s.
I don't get the Knight Rider joke...
I go to Lime Rock often, so power matters quite a lot to me. When I'm not rolling around in this car, I plan to do time attack with it.
As for the 20B - GL finding one, and more-so, GL finding parts for it. FD motors are easy to get and there's plenty of parts out there for them.
p.s.
I don't get the Knight Rider joke...
Where is that Mario, again...gosh....
12-05-2011, 08:33 PM
#23
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I think, having around 350whp on the rx8 is perfect. Fit it with proper suspension and brake system, and I would be a happy camper. where would you use 600whp ( other than a track, but how often is that ) you would sure be the quickest to the next red light.
