chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

Well, perhaps we could employe a similar scoring strategy that Modified Magazine did for their 2009 Tuner Shoot-out.

The had a Power Under The Curve (PUC) rating instead of just a *****-to-the-wall high horsepower blow-up-if-you-dare dyno competition.

The PUC was calculated by using the best 3,000 rpm range for the dyno graph (Modified reasoning is most engines only make use of a 3,000 rpm chunk of their powerband on the track), and then adding up the peak HP in every 100-rpm increment (so a total of 30 points in the powerband is added together to give you X adn that is your PUC, obviously the higher the better). Although it would reduce the sampling resolution, we could just add up peak HP in every 250 rpm increments since almost no one has a plot with every 100 rpm shown....And because we have higher redlines that most, maybe sample the best 3500 rpm or 4000 rpm range?

This would show what kind of power the engine can average and produce over a usable spectrum, instead of some super peaky and laggy big turbo car....*cough* dyno queens *cough*

For example:

Jeff's dyno of 316-rwhp with his GT3071R upgrade has a PUC of (going by every 250 rpm for a 4,000 rpm best plot): 3801

Then the Esmeril dyno has a PUC (going by the same 250 rpm for 4,000 best plot): 3492

So as you can see, even tho Esmeril peaked almost 100-rwhp more than the 3071, the 3071 produced more usable power, and the PUC reflects it.

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

I was busy adding stuff up when you posted this but I think my idea would work perfectly for what we are seeking here

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Man i'd like to see your numbers on 3071 vs esmeril - does not seem right ?

What rev range were you working on ?

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

The best 4,000 rpm plot

The 3071 was 4,000 rpm to 8,000 rpm

To capture Esmerils peak power, I had to go 3500 rpm 7500rpm

I don't get why it doesn't seem right, the 3071 makes lots of power for a long period of time- look at the graph. The Esmeril produces a crap ton of power for a very short period of time.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

well That is not being fair to the Esmeril . If you were driving the Esmeril car you would not change gear at 7500 simply because that is were peak power is . You would change at 8000+ to get more into the meat of the curve ....

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

Well I can redo it for 8000 rpm (adds two more 250 rpm points) but by 8000 rpm the engine is back down to 320-rwhp, just like it was at 6000 rpm. Why keep revving past 7500rpm when the engine is loosing 90-rwhp?? Shift and get back into the uphill swing of power.

Honestly, NO power-under-the-curve rating will be fair to the Esmeril, because it DOESN'T make good PUC....it's a peaky graph.

Each graph is going to have a different best 4,000 rpm plot, because each motor will produce power slightly differently.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

do the numbers and you will see what i mean

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

I give up, there is no pleasing anyone! No matter what system we come up with, someone will get butthurt.

I also stopped calculating the Esmeril because I thought Chris said they let off at 7500 rpm or something like that, and that's why the power drops off so fast.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I was just trying to be fair . If Esmeril posted a better dyno showing 400ish all the way to 8000rpm (which is highly likely possible given chris's comments) it would be no contest . However all we have to work on are the dynos presented so if we want to do anything we can only work with what we have .....

Although I really like your idea - you are right that there is no pleasing everyone .No matter how we handled it there would always be anomalies .
As another example - I could say take the UG greddy curve to 8500 and compare it with the 3071 . You would probably get a higher number for the UG Greddy simply because the 3071 plot does not go to 8500 - would you think that a fair comparison ?

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

That's what I'm trying to say...

I also don't support the Esmeril dyno because I think this should be a customer dyno compilation, not ones by the manufacture...just a thought. I'm more curious to see what the maybe not-so-average customer, but a non-affiliated customer nonetheless, can obtain.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

By that logic mm's 3071 dyno should not be there either and i should put your one up there instead . Ducking for cover now
Both dynos are from members of the forum - the fact that they are both vendors is a little bit grey .
But this thread is supposed to be more about what is possible than what a base kits will do . I don't mind if it turns in dyno wars - competition is what makes us do things to improve which I see as a good thing . Apart from the potential for people to blow their motors of course .

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

That's fine by me- you can take his down- it has to be fair. I don't think any company/vendor should have a dyno here, it just becomes questionable if an actual customer can obtain it. To date no customer has even gotten close to Esmeril's 400+rwhp dyno. Not to say a customer couldn't, but I want to see what an enterprising customer can do.

My dyno isn't the highest of the 3071 other than Jeff- it's actually Jason's (mysql) of 309-rwhp. So you could use that one and put up a customer Esmeril dyno. I don't even know what the highest customer Esmeril dyno is? Staiclag?

Should we still include Mazsport kit dynos? Even tho Mazsport is out of business so you can't technically buy the kit anymore, I know maxx did 364-rwhp or so on a Type-1 kit if I recall correctly.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

hmmm - good points . Lets see what the consensus is .....

And i'm quite happy to post up mazsport ptp sfr or whatever - the ones up there were just easy for me to find and the others were not so that's is the only reason they are not there .

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

I guess I was wrong about his power- it was 303-rwhp and 268 ft-lbs- that torque is nutty.

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/302-8-whp-267-9-ft-lbs-20-67-mpg-152267/

I think it's the highest MazSport Type-1 dyno by a customer

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Don't think that dyno is good enough to warrant inclusion given other dynos i've seen for that kit . Danobre made over 350whp ,and Someone else made 366 or so didn't they ?

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

Oh I haven't seen any other customer Type-1 kit dynos. I thought they had type-3 kits?

Flashwing

This is the primary issue with putting serious effort into a dyno listing that is for maximum results. The results are going to depend on a lot more factors than simply the kit but also tuning. It's more of a "look at me!" kind of deal instead of an objective look at the real potential of the kit as it comes from the manufacturer.

If the objective is to compile the highest WHP for each kit then you guys have a pretty simple task ahead. If the point is to provide useful information to the public on which kit to choose then this isn't going to be effective. The idea is to show dyno numbers for a kit out of the box.

I agree that using vendor numbers isn't going to be the way to go because 9 times out of 10 those numbers were obtained with serious amounts of tuning and probably a few modifications that are not part of the standard kit.

chickenwafer

iTrader: (9)

I agree, Todd. But we also don't want "out of the box" kit numbers, since that was what the other thread was for, and this one is ***** To The Wall, do whatever it takes.

I don't think this thread was created to guide anyone, per say, but more or less just "This is what X kit is capable of doing" and it's up to the user to interpret the results. Some people actually like a late delivery, peaky turbo powerplant (I know...). Others want more linear power. This will show them all the aspects.

My main thing for vendors/manufactures having their own dynos in here is they probably spent a MUCH longer time on the dyno fine tuning the setup and could have even tuned for max numbers. I just want to see if a customer can replicate the results. It's all fine and dandy to advertise a kit as making xxx-rwhp but if a customer can't achieve it, it might as well be bogus, you know? I'm rather curious now to see what the highest rwhp Esmeril customer dyno is....


Another reason Jeff's dyno could be omitted is it was non-SAE corrected so it's rather raw, all the other dynos are SAE corrected for altitude, temperature, etc. Jeff would have pulled well over 330-rwhp probably if it was corrected.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

For me this thread was never about which kit is best . More 'what can be done with the Renesis' .
So the only issue I have with vendors dynos is - are they real ?

Flashwing

I can't speak for other vendors but the ones posted by MazdaManiac are very real and very moddest for what his 3071 upgrade is capable of on his own car. However that was taken into consideration as the average customer isn't going to have the large amount of modifications and tuning that he has into his own vehicle. This is the reason you haven't seen other dynos since the 310whp one was posted.

I do believe that Dave's method of measuring power is the correct one for the fact that there is a difference between how a dyno queen operates and how a well running FI car runs. Usable power compared to peak power are two totally different things. That's why the aspect of torque and the torque curve is so important. Having a bajillion whp is completly worthless unless it's in places that make a difference.

A great example...

A local mustang performance shop had a 2004 terminator with a MASSIVE turbo on it. It looked like it came off of a semi-truck. The car was putting down just north of 1000whp at like 6600 RPMs. The problem was the car made 500whp till about 5200 rpms and then it shot through the roof.

The power band was completly useless in that car. It made tons of power but nowhere that would be useful.

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

Our kit does not die until above 8k rpm, like I said, the boost was falling on its face in that run and we were also having spark issues(old crappy spark plugs). The 366whp curve is not only fatter down low than the 414(which would means it has more usable power) but it is also higher in hp than the 414 past 7500rpm. look at the numbers, the 366 curve actually has more power at 8k rpm than the 414whp one because it held the boost and the 414whp was falling to 10-11psi due to boost control problems.

If you look at that curve, the area under it is more...

Ultimately its up to the OP to post what he believes should be there, I think the better curve posted right now is the 366whp, more total area holding higher hp past 7500rpm and with no issues. I would like to see the math done with that one. Regardless, pretty soon I will post a new one....

Chris

p.s....just a note, a 60mm T04S like the one we use is not even close to being on "massive" side of things for a renesis, its more of a medium turbo.

Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

I think Esmerils and MM's has a place up there. As long as it is completed with a renesis engine it belongs in this thread.


I don't understand why there are specific requirements that vendors cannot post dyno's, this isn't about the kits they make, it is about the power that can be obtained with the renesis.

I say leave it no holds barred....

ChrisRX8PR

iTrader: (1)

+1

I would also like to see the 366whp dyno added as well and just write 13psi in the description.



Chris

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Though this thread is titled "Highest", I think it is best that it be representative of what the kits produce "in the wild".
I don't think its fair to use it to show what an "optimized" system will produce.
This is precisely the reason why I've withheld my own high-number dynos.
You create unrealistic expectations in the typical, inexperienced owner's mind.

Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

True but everyone has supporting mods. It has so many variances with this kind of thing.

I would just put a disclaimer and list all the supporting mods so those can see when they buy XYZ kit and buy XYZ parts you get this...Plus tuning, engine health and so on.

It really will never be perfect now that I think of it.....Honestly open it up I would love to see everyone's Highest HP numbers irregardless of who they are from or what they have on the car.