The building of a BHR monster
04-08-2012, 10:27 AM
#1
The building of a BHR monster
Ok, as a few of you know, my motor took a nose dive within 12 hours of me getting home from Afghanistan. This isn't a thread of pointing fingers or assigning blame, all I will say regarding the issue is it was tuning related. I called up Ray and he cut me a deal I couldn't refuse so I set the ball rolling. The major wait time was with procuring a set of ceramic seals. I would HIGHLY recommend that if you want to use NRS ceramics that you put in the order now. He only does a production run when he gets enough orders and it took close to 8 months for me to get mine in. The other bit of waiting was to be patient with Ray, with the killer deal he was giving me (That he was certainly not obligated to do so) I needed to realize that he has a personal life, needed to run a business, and needed to turn other customers out that he was actually making money off of. So before anyone says one bad word toward Ray about the time line, let me shut that off right now.
When we tore apart the motor it looked like a murder scene in there. Both rotors, both housings, and the center iron were all beat to **** and not salvageable. Only two apex seals were not broken (but were damaged) out of the six and we only found three of the six corner seals still in the motor (one was embedded in the rotor). Thankfully my turbine didn't get chewed with all this mayhem going on. E-Shaft was perfect (Thank you Red Line 10-40) as were both of the end Irons. Cost to rebuild this painful mess with new rotors, new center iron, new housings, aggressive porting, ceramic seals, and a hand built masterpiece by BHR? Right around 7200 bucks. Yeah, it hurts.
Yes, that is an imprent of a corner seal
Embedded corner seal
When we tore apart the motor it looked like a murder scene in there. Both rotors, both housings, and the center iron were all beat to **** and not salvageable. Only two apex seals were not broken (but were damaged) out of the six and we only found three of the six corner seals still in the motor (one was embedded in the rotor). Thankfully my turbine didn't get chewed with all this mayhem going on. E-Shaft was perfect (Thank you Red Line 10-40) as were both of the end Irons. Cost to rebuild this painful mess with new rotors, new center iron, new housings, aggressive porting, ceramic seals, and a hand built masterpiece by BHR? Right around 7200 bucks. Yeah, it hurts.
Yes, that is an imprent of a corner seal
Embedded corner seal
Last edited by WantedTwo; 04-08-2012 at 12:00 PM.
04-08-2012, 10:28 AM
#2
So, on to better things, yesterday, Ray and I met at his shop (yesterday was a Saturday, yea, Ray gave up his Saturday to build my motor) and started to piece together this wonderful work of art. Ray said that this motor to date is the most closely built to blue print as he has ever done. And let me just say, watching him work is something to behold. The methodical attention to detail, the careful prepping and labeling of parts, and the OCD nature of his drive to perfection is apparent. But then again, I'm not saying anything to you all that you don't already know.
Really like this picture, wish it had turned out a little better
Really like this picture, wish it had turned out a little better
Last edited by WantedTwo; 04-09-2012 at 12:44 AM.
04-08-2012, 10:29 AM
#3
Ok, sorry I've been so silent, been busy with work and getting the motor in. Monday we started the process of getting the motor back into the car but being as careful as Ray is we didn't want to rush things. Tuesday we went back at it and by the end of the night we had a running renny! The first start went well as you all have seen from Todd's video, but with all rebuilds there were a few starting issues and idling issues. Ray wanted to make sure everything was good to go before letting the car loose so he decided to keep it one more day to get a few cold starts down. Wednesday I drove back to the shop to find my baby parked outside looking as lovely as ever. She was still hard to start and didn't want to idle but Ray let me take her home. Today, I drove her into work, still having the hard start and refusal to idle issues. I started her during my lunch and drove her home with the issues still in place. I've heard all the stories about when the seals finally get set it's like someone flips a switch and that is exactly what happened. I went out to start her again and bam, fired right up and the stalling issues were gone. I went out for a drive and she ran just as smooth and nice as before. Vacuum readings are around 17 which is better than the 14-15 we started with a few days ago. I expect it will get better with time as the motor gets more miles on it.
On a side note, no one outside of the BHR crew has seen my new battery set up which is two six volt Optimas in series laid flat in the trunk depression. I custom built a mounting cage and will eventually get a false bottom to cover everything up. I'm telling you this because both of the batteries tanked while the car was parked and are not recoverable. Good news is I contacted Optima today and it seems like they are going to honor my warrantee and give me two new ones. I took out the old batteries and put my old relocation kit back in the car for now.
I couldn't be happier with the way things turned out and with Ray, Eric and Todd at BHR. Their level of expertise and precision is mind boggling. Here is an example; they replaced EVERY SINGLE GASKET, not just on the block, but on the manifold, oil injectors, fuel injectors, and everywhere else. If you do happen to drop off a car in person here are a few tips; Ray drinks bud light, Eric drinks Sailor Jerry's and Diet Mt Dew, and Todd likes Shock Top. Also a good idea to feed the animals. A lot of discussion has gone around about what difference you get purchasing a product or service from BHR and I can sum it up in two words, Customer Service. Ray built me a set of blue plug wires free of charge to match the rest of the theme under my hood. Ray will take care of you well after the sell, and above and beyond what anyone would expect. Taste the BHR difference, it tastes good.
And one last note, this is a thread noting how my engine was built and the steps involved with my build. I appreciate your input on uselessness of ceramic seals, Rockwell hardness, several large pictures, and bad grammar but take it to your own thread and discuss it there please.
Picture time!!
On a side note, no one outside of the BHR crew has seen my new battery set up which is two six volt Optimas in series laid flat in the trunk depression. I custom built a mounting cage and will eventually get a false bottom to cover everything up. I'm telling you this because both of the batteries tanked while the car was parked and are not recoverable. Good news is I contacted Optima today and it seems like they are going to honor my warrantee and give me two new ones. I took out the old batteries and put my old relocation kit back in the car for now.
I couldn't be happier with the way things turned out and with Ray, Eric and Todd at BHR. Their level of expertise and precision is mind boggling. Here is an example; they replaced EVERY SINGLE GASKET, not just on the block, but on the manifold, oil injectors, fuel injectors, and everywhere else. If you do happen to drop off a car in person here are a few tips; Ray drinks bud light, Eric drinks Sailor Jerry's and Diet Mt Dew, and Todd likes Shock Top. Also a good idea to feed the animals. A lot of discussion has gone around about what difference you get purchasing a product or service from BHR and I can sum it up in two words, Customer Service. Ray built me a set of blue plug wires free of charge to match the rest of the theme under my hood. Ray will take care of you well after the sell, and above and beyond what anyone would expect. Taste the BHR difference, it tastes good.
And one last note, this is a thread noting how my engine was built and the steps involved with my build. I appreciate your input on uselessness of ceramic seals, Rockwell hardness, several large pictures, and bad grammar but take it to your own thread and discuss it there please.
Picture time!!
Last edited by WantedTwo; 04-13-2012 at 12:25 AM.
04-09-2012, 05:34 PM
#14
Ceramic Apex seals in a FI motor is not usualy recommended. Furthermore, with the use of FI I lost 3 motors, none were APEX seal failures. Each was the loss compression due to side seal failures in the rear housing (runs hotter) The first involved detination (marbles in a can sound heard) the next too just lost compression until it started running bad.
My point is that you may have destroyed APEX seals but it may have been the side seals first which caused damage to the apex seals. Just a thought, I could be wrong.
Either way, sounds like ray will take care of you. Take your time with the new motor. With the very HIGH EGT's these motors make stock, they dont last long with FI unless you run a very rich AFR. The side seal springs just get cooked and cooked fast when exposed to prolong high RPM's and boost. If you only use boost to accelerat from a stop or make a lane change on the freeway, it will lsat much longer. Run it on the track and you might only get 3-4 hours of track time unless you get those EGT's down (rich AFR).
My point is that you may have destroyed APEX seals but it may have been the side seals first which caused damage to the apex seals. Just a thought, I could be wrong.
Either way, sounds like ray will take care of you. Take your time with the new motor. With the very HIGH EGT's these motors make stock, they dont last long with FI unless you run a very rich AFR. The side seal springs just get cooked and cooked fast when exposed to prolong high RPM's and boost. If you only use boost to accelerat from a stop or make a lane change on the freeway, it will lsat much longer. Run it on the track and you might only get 3-4 hours of track time unless you get those EGT's down (rich AFR).
04-09-2012, 08:08 PM
#15
Registered
Your build looks very well put together. One thing to keep in mind, the side plates that you had surface ground. Any plate that is machined down up to or more than 2.5 thou deep, is highly recommended to have re-nitrated.
Here is a good example of a side iron that has been surface ground 2 thou deep with out the re-nitrating. The iron below has 10k miles on it of street driven rx7.
It shows the extreme wear . Also in a rx8 the 9k rpm limit will eat those plates up like no tomorrow.
I hope you take this as advice and future knowledge and not some one hating
...
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Extreme wear from not nitrating plate after surface ground 10k mile street use.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Extreme wear from not nitrating plate after surface ground 10k mile street use.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Extreme wear from not nitrating plate after surface ground 10k mile street use.
Here is a before and after 13b rx8 plate, machined down, re- nitrated and lapped.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Thanks
Here is a good example of a side iron that has been surface ground 2 thou deep with out the re-nitrating. The iron below has 10k miles on it of street driven rx7.
It shows the extreme wear . Also in a rx8 the 9k rpm limit will eat those plates up like no tomorrow.
I hope you take this as advice and future knowledge and not some one hating
... 
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Extreme wear from not nitrating plate after surface ground 10k mile street use.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Extreme wear from not nitrating plate after surface ground 10k mile street use.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Extreme wear from not nitrating plate after surface ground 10k mile street use.
Here is a before and after 13b rx8 plate, machined down, re- nitrated and lapped.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Thanks
04-10-2012, 09:57 AM
#16
Registered
True, But because there are so many variations in nitrated depth from the factory, its best to have your surface ground plates tested with a Rockwell hardness tester, to determine the remaining nitrate dept rather than guessing.
Here are some Rockwell #s
New OEM plate Has 38-42 Rockwell reading.
Used Plate ground down 2-2.5 thou deep has 20-22 Rockwell reading.
Used plate machined down past 3 thou deep has 8-10 Rockwell reading
The Rockwell reading gives you an idea of what you have and the life expectancy of your plates after they have been ground..
Thanks
Here are some Rockwell #s
New OEM plate Has 38-42 Rockwell reading.
Used Plate ground down 2-2.5 thou deep has 20-22 Rockwell reading.
Used plate machined down past 3 thou deep has 8-10 Rockwell reading
The Rockwell reading gives you an idea of what you have and the life expectancy of your plates after they have been ground..
Thanks
04-10-2012, 10:22 AM
#17
Release the twins.
Ps. why advertise for pineapple like that? i would have grinded/paint over it personally. then again, i made my own engine adapter in the first place...
04-10-2012, 04:54 PM
#18
Registered
Because you cold have simply posted and replayed back with the Rockwell readings, rather than posting, what makes you think we did not do that..
Ether way, is good knowledge for those that consider this process for there engine ( grinding plates with out nitrate). To ask there engine builders for the Rockwell readings on there ground plates if re-nitrating is not offered.
Me posting this information is not in any way to de-credit or bash on your engine rebuild qualifications. Its only meant to offer information for the hole community in the rx8 club.
Thank you
Ether way, is good knowledge for those that consider this process for there engine ( grinding plates with out nitrate). To ask there engine builders for the Rockwell readings on there ground plates if re-nitrating is not offered.
Me posting this information is not in any way to de-credit or bash on your engine rebuild qualifications. Its only meant to offer information for the hole community in the rx8 club.
Thank you
Last edited by rotoryfreak; 04-10-2012 at 05:13 PM.
