GaMEChld

Aright, I installed some new ignition coils from Esmeril Racing. I have an interesting problem running the car. I am going to paste stuff that I PMed to Chris to try and diagnose the problem, so forgive me if any of the info repeats itself, or the sentences are structured as if I am talking to someone specific or anything. I will present all the clues that I can muster, if anyone has a bright idea, do tell!

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Ok, we have the new coils installed but there's a problem. We set the dwell at 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0 but none of those fixed this problem. What happens is when I try to free rev the engine, I cannot get past the 6k rpm region, it starts to stutter and not go any higher. Is that spark blowout? I did not attempt to drive the car like this, only attempted to free rev while stopped. Is that a quick fix of settings? Would going ahead and putting in the new smaller gap spark plugs help this? Should I drive the car and see how the real drive is instead of the free revving?

I guess blowout doesn't really make sense, because it should be burning the extra fuel better than the oem coils, so I dunno what it means.

On the plus side, the new coils basically fixed my idle problem. The car now runs at a steady idle. (Instead of jumping back and forth between 500-1500 rpm)

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Well when installing, we labled everything very carefully and triple checked to make sure the right wires were getting soldered. After each soldered connection, we checked that it was a strong connection and pulled them hard to make sure they would stay put. Wrapped all connections securely in electrical tape. I will try fiddling with the revcut and revlimit and get back to you. Could an inadequate connection on the grounding wire cause this symptom?

Also, is it possible putting in the new regapped spark plugs will make any difference to this?

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Ok, I've got some additional info now, see if this gives you any idea as to the problem. I started the car up again and let it warm up. I experimented with free revving again. If I give gas gradually as you would if you were accelerating in normal driving, the revs go up gradually and smoothly, with no real problem. If I give gas more aggressively and mash the pedal more abruptly, that's when the problem happens and it starts having trouble climbing and stuttering. What does that mean?

I did not yet put the new spark plugs in, so I don't know if that'll fix it. I did check the revlimit and revcut settings. One is off and the other is at 9250, so I didn't touch them. I just finished the installation of my AFR gauge. I do not know if it is reading accurately, but while free revving the AFR pegs extremely lean off the scale. Is that because there is no load on the engine, or is there a problem? I think I will go out for a short careful drive and see how the symptoms present in real driving instead of free revving.

Could this in any way have to do with a throttle body problem? We took that apart during the installation, and the first time we started the car my gas pedal was not functioning, which we fixed by unplugging and replugging the throttle body connector.

Could this be a problem with the ground connection for the new coils? I was thinking the spot we grounded it may not be conducting properly.

Could this be a tuning fixable issue? Could the coils somehow be making the car run too lean or too rich and create this symptom, or is that not at all what could cause this?

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Ok, another update to add on to my last message. I took it out for a test drive. I can drive the car around if I am conservative on the gas. Cannot do anything spirited, let alone get into boost. Next time I get time to experiment on the car, my next ideas are to ground the coils to a new spot, and install the new spark plugs. If you have any additional ideas, please let me know.

(I'll also recheck my VAC line to the interceptor, maybe it is pinched or something, could that explain it?)

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Sorry for all the text folks. That's pretty much everything I know to this point. If you have any ideas or need more info from me, let me know!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Put a timing light on the #1 leading plug and try to reproduce the symptoms.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Check the ESS and see if it has crap on it..you might want to shim it out a bit with a couple of washers and see if that helps as well

GaMEChld

Sorry, you guys are a little over my head.

What is a timing light, and what will it help me determine?

What is the ESS? Eccentric Shaft Sensor?


Also, a friend of mine seems to think its not grounded well, so I guess I'll just reground it before I do anything else, because that's simple enough.

Flashwing

In all seriousness I would suggest looking into the BHR ignition system which has coils that utilize the dwell settings that are factory spec as well as producing plenty of spark for forced induction systems.

Plug and play with no need to tune.

Hopefully chris has some ideas for you.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

If what Dan and I suggested you try is over your head, then you are in WAY over your head.
Grounding and stuff is not going to help you if you can't do basic diagnostics.

Get with someone who understands what I asked you to do.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Isn't the timing light the thing thats like a light bulb attached to the ignition coil to check and see how is the firing going on ?

GaMEChld

Ok, car is fixed. Thanks for the vote of confidence MM :-P


Grounded it to a new spot, put in new plugs, pull started it (because I had flooded it trying to start it with a bad ground). Runs good now, no spark blowout (or whatever that problem was.) New coils are burning too well though, looks a little lean, but thats a whole new thing to deal with.

All in all, problem solved, it was a grounding issue. Poor ground caused poor charge to the coils, causing it to run in a basic sense, but unable to combust the added fuel given when mashing the pedal, causing the revs to hit a wall (Spark blowout?).

Well that's my read of what happened, but what do I know.

Thanks for the ideas guys, fortunately I didn't have to explore them.

GaMEChld

Well, all the upgrades look fairly similar so I bet you can imagine. But also, I'm not so great with the limited slack of the wires and tight fit so I wasn't able to position all the wires so they were hidden away nicely. So if you look down there, you can see some colored wires visible and bunched up in the area.

Personally, I don't mind, but I'm sure more experienced people could have made it neater than I did. But my priority is getting all this stuff functional and running nicely before I worry about cosmetics. Not to mention even if I did have people gawking at my engine bay, I'd hope my shiny front-mounted turbo setup would capture the bulk of the audience's attention and maybe they won't notice my wires.

If you really want pictures I'll grab some, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

GaMEChld

^Sure thing, here they are:



New Coils




Comparison




Wiring Harness




Coils Hooked Up




With Spark Plug Wires




Finished Install - From Above




Finished Install - Close Up From Left of Throttle Body




Finished Install - Close Up From the Right



If you need anything else just gimme a shout. Hope the pics are helpful.

GaMEChld

If you look closely at pics 4 and 5, you can see where I grounded it the first time, causing the problems. It was grounded to one of the 2 bolts that the bracket uses for mounting. The bolts are on the small/thin side so its possible the Eye-hole for the ground wasn't touching the center or the bolt well, the metal of the A/C Compressor was probably grimy and not conducting well, and the black painted metal of the actual bracket probably wasn't conducting at all.

If you look in pic 7 (second to last) you can see that goldish bracket that my braided oil line is passing through. That bracket has 2 bolts holding it in place in the pulley area. That is the new bolt I used to ground it, fixing my problem. That is where I would recommend people ground to when installing this kit.

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

WTF! This is there wire harness? Holy moly ,, looks like a pile of noodles.

GaMEChld

Yeah... maybe I should have wrapped them up beforehand. Ah well. I was thinking we would be able to shove them all behind the whole coil block, but it was pretty tight so we just bolted it down when we got it lined up.

GaMEChld

Would you care to detail what types of differences you perceive? I'm interested in your thoughts. They probably are all in similar range of operational usefulness, so any details comparing observable structural differences might be cool to see and useful for people deciding between the products. Do you have a link for your Ignition Upgrade?

The Mazsport one looks nice and uses the factory harness so it looks easy to deal with, but costs more.

The Esmeril one is a little messy on the harness situation and needs splicing/soldering. But the cost is reasonable.

Mazurfer

No offense, but that is one very, very ugly wiring harness!

Wow!

GaMEChld

None taken, I'm just a user, not the creator. It's not that visible and I'm not a nut about the engine bay, so I'm alright with it. But I am sure there are plenty of people who would be adamant about it being neater than that. In which case, the Esmeril solution might be out of the question. If you do get it, you should probably bundle the wires nicely in electrical tape or something, that would go a long way towards making it neat.

bse50

It's not for the looks but having so many small wires hanging around means an increased risk of cutting\melting etc.
I don't know how this kit is but i suggest that you protect them somehow

GaMEChld

I don't think that area is very prone towards being cut or melted, I'm more worried about the power lines to my EMS since they have to get around the turbo and avoid radiator fans and whatnot. The wires for the coils aren't really hanging and dangling around haphazzardly, they are bunched in there pretty tight and are not going to move much.

GaMEChld

Well then, sounds like you've got the competitive edge on ignition upgrades!

Not that I am regretful in my choice, I do like to give Esmeril some business, but yeah, that sounds very good.

Here's an odd question for me to ask a vendor of a competing product, but if ever there was a vendor to answer honestly, you'd be the one. Do you think the Esmeril option looks like it does ANYTHING better than yours? Or would you confidently say that yours is superior in every way.

Not trying to start a debate, just interested in what your opinion is.

coastie08

I think Charles already implied that yes, the BHR kit is better in every way. For him to say that his product is not as good (or better) than a competing product would be silly. (Not to mention making an inferior product in a competitive niche market would be fiscally irresponsible).

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Thx, Coastie. I hate to barge in and act like BHR stuff is the best simply because has the BHR name on it but, to be honest, I am VERY aware of the politics and dynamics on this forum as it regards my personal reputation and how much many of you trust my opinion. I take NONE of it lightly. I try to be fair and keep my customers' best interest in mind when discussing mods and many times I recommend AGAINST swapping out a competitor's product simply because there is no NEED to. To tell a guy to get rid of his Esmeril turbo kit or Mazsport Ignition Solution is rather stupid when the better thing to do is to help them derive the most out of what they have already paid for. I also tell the customers I have in the NE region of the U.S. that they typically have no need for my radiators and that they should spend their money on something that will deliver a little more value per dollar.

My point is that if I think I can build a superior product for a reasonable price, I will. If I can't I will tell you who does and either retail it myself or direct you to them. My priority is to the customer's interest and not my own in an effort to solidify my long-term career around here. I left a $70K/year job at Ford so I am rather committed to the principles I espouse.

My motto is "If you aren't having fun then I am doing something wrong" and I stick to it. Modding our cars isn't supposed to induce stress nor tension and I do all that I can to keep it that way.

One last thing; if you look at the entire line of BHR products you'll see 2 glaring things; 1) We have some pretty weird stuff like 800+ h.p. axles, A/T radiators, throttle body spacers, etc. Who the Hell needs those? 2) It takes a LONG *** time for us to develop everything we build. That's because we check, re-check, triple-check, verify through engineering, re-verify through practical application, shop around the industry for vendors to supply us the parts we need to get the highest quality at the best prices (in many cases I am buying from the same companies who supply all the OEMs), ask our sponsored people/teams to try and break our stuff, use it all on our own cars every day, challenge our customers to break our stuff/discover the limitations thereof, and actually provide the best warranty in the biz on ALL our products. All of these considerations take a long time to secure but, hey, I wouldn't be comfortable otherwise and I would lose sleep over it. Ask "Mrs. Legend" all about that.

GaMEChld

Well I thought that BHR's upgrade came out before Esmeril's though I'm not sure about that. If that is the case, then its not like he would have purposely designed a part inferior in some way and be irresponsible. Also, sometimes there are compromises involved that mean that one company's product is better in someways but not in others. And I was just asking if he thought Esmeril did ONE thing with their Ignition that was better, not asking if he thought their product was flat out superior to his. He did mention that he thought the bracket looked good earlier in the thread, so I don't think he is averse to giving other products positive commentary. Word around that Charles is very honest about things like that, he likes to educate potential customers. So, don't bite my head off for asking.

He already mentioned many of his product's virtues, I was just wondering if he was impressed with ANY aspect of the Esmeril Ignition, or if instead he was 100% unimpressed.

That is all. I do not like to deal in assumption and inference. People can speak for themselves. And if he doesn't want to answer that's fine too, it doesn't matter much. I was just curious. I'm sure he doesn't need you to answer an opinion based question in his stead.

EDIT: Well looks like Charles managed to respond while I was still typing!

GaMEChld

I'm looking at my pics and comparing it to the website pics, from what I can match up, they are indeed the same bracket, just the angle and orientation might be confusing. Also, the flash in my pic might be reflecting off the bracket making it look lighter than it is. Or maybe the one in the pic is just extra shiny and painted special.

I didn't realize you guys weren't mass shipping those out yet, I guess I had the timelines mixed up.

And yeah, I really do appreciate input from everyone who knows their stuff, I still consider myself something of a noob around here, but I'm absorbing everything I possibly can like a sponge. I look forward to the day I can repay others with the knowledge I've gained from you and everyone like you, who takes the time to educate people in a civil manner.

So thanks for your attention to this thread!

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

OK I'll put my two cents in here.

Here is the Esmeril Coil Upgrade Kit,,,






Here is the BHR Coil Upgrade Kit,,,





Esmeril uses the LS2 Coils.
BHR uses the Yukon LS2 Coils.

Looks like you have to do some wire splicing to connect the Esmerril coils

The BHR Coils are simply pugged into the stock harness.

You make the decision.

GaMEChld

nice pics for comparison. BHR looks like some serious gear. The thing that I can't sort out is it looks like the reason for the Esmeril ignition doesn't use the stock plugs is because the stock uses 3 wires, and the Esmeril introduces a 4th wire for each coil for a dedicated ground. What purpose does that serve?

Edit: Ahhhh, I see the ground off the BHR coils too. Single long wire, very nice. Well then, really does look like BHR has a bulletproof piece of equipment there. And from the price SHIPPED that Charles posted earlier, I guess it really can't be beat. Solid gear, heatsinks, OEM harness connectors, cheapest. A+