teebee

I am seriously considering picking up a CZ 1.1 unit with Canscan (used if I can get the right price) but I wanted some feedback from current users of the CZ. I have read the post where someone was asking for "proof" about real HP gains with the CZ, and have seen the dynos that indeed do show HP gains. However I am not strictly concerned with HP but more concerned with how "fast" the car is (i.e. acceleration). The few dyno's I saw did show HP gains at very high RPM's but this was for a limited range and in the mid and low RPM range some of the graphs actually showed the HP with the CZ to dip below that of stock in places or the HP chart for the CZ was very "choppy" at low and mid RPMs compared to stock. I would rather have a smooth 5-10HP gain across most of the RPM band than a 20HP gain in just one place at high RPMs. Can the CZ be tuned this way? Also, how does it all translate into the "speed" of the car? I haven't seen anyone postin 0-60 times for the CZ installed and tuned. I don't mean to sound skeptical or anything, I just want to make sure I am making the right investment and I understand those with the CZ installed and happy with it might be inclined to tell me "well if you aren't sure then just don't buy it" etc. But what I am just looking for is an idea of how much "faster" the car is with the CZ installed and tuned. Of course I might not get hard numbers on this but maybe at least some users can give me their opinions on it.

Also, if I don't spend the money on the CZ, would a RB flywheel be a good alternative investment. I currently have both the RB exhaust and RB REVi intake and love them and thus far have been impressed with the RB products as well as customer service. However I have no idea what the installation price for a flywheel would be typically.

Thanks for reading.

howiedog

From what I gather about what I've read about the CZ unit, the results will differ greatly from idividual cars. Most gains will be made from fine-tuning the unit, and the gains will mostly be in the upper rpm range with slight gains in the mid rpm range. Also, I understand that most people who have fine-tuned the unit do notice a difference in accerleration-aka "butt dyno". Hope this helps.

cretinx

most of the dynos are the CZ + other mods

I have yet to see one of nothing but the CZ showing real gains.

Lufa

I was surley one of the more vocal posters who wanted some sort of proof prior to buying the unit... The proof is there, if you have a car that run on the rich side, there is a lot of HP to gain, if you have a car that gets good MPG already (as compared to the average RX8) the upside for this unit seems to be lower.

However it would seem that all cars fine tuned with this unit will pull 185+ HP on a dyno. Rich running cars that start in the 160's will see a bigger benefit than a car that pulls 175+ already.

The reason you wont see good gains below 4000 rpm is because the way the ECU behaves. Essentially there is an open loop and a closed loop, after about 3500-4000 RPM (depending on gear) the open loop for the ECU allows for the CZ unit to add HP, in closed loop if you make adjustments the ECU eventually it figures out how to adjust around your adjustments and gives zero benefit.

Someday an ECU replacement, instead of a piggy back, might be created, when that happens a lot more engine managment will be possible.

teebee

Anyone have thoughts on whether the money is better spent on a lightweight flywheel vs. Canzoomer? Also any opinions on which flywheel would be better for everyday application - MS or RB?

mcpheeg

Buy the flywheel youll love it. :D
I also have a lightened fly wheel and I did purchase the CZ unit.
I found the CZ unit, bearing in mind I have a UK spec car, a big dissapointment.

The mazda speed spark plugs that CZ sells are actually standard in the UK cars.
The unit actually dropped my hp by 20HP right throughout the range. Heres the proof from my dynos.
The CZ was on for runs 1 + 2 then switched off for runs 3 + 4.
Please note these are flywheel HP not RWHP.
I am currently running with a unichip installed on my car gained only 7hp at max revs.

Need to go and get it remapped since the header, high flow cat and new back boxes, lightened flywheel and air filter has all been changed.

Hope this helps :D

Fanman

Damn, is that right, your car is running at 213 hp to the wheels ? That would be a big anamoly as most cars stock run about 170-180 whp, even with the mods you mentioned maybe 185 whp. Also did you have the CZ unit tuned ? I have seen people on this board get 5 whp from an untuned CZ unit, & about low 20's tuned for their car.

mcpheeg

The figures are flywheel HP not rear wheel horse power.

The dynos show what is being produced by the engine, not the wheels.

Fanman

Did you have your car tuned with the CZ unit ? I know there might be quite a bit of difference between the European, American & Asian ECU settings.

teebee

Thanks for the input. Anyone have a feeling on the MS flywheel vs. the Racing Beat?

mcpheeg

Cant help you there I have Ogura flywheel and clutch.
I think they are more or less the same.
They both use a mazda part as the counter balance.
See www.racingbeat.com the conterbalance part is a stock mazda part.
Just wondering if any one else with a flywheel noticed that when assembled there was very little difference between stock and lightened, my guess is it works because the weight is shifted from the outer rim to closer to the shaft giving a different centrifugal force to the outer rim of the flywheel.
The only thing with the flywheel is when in first you have to rev a bit harder for pulling away, or stall the damn thing.
1st 2nd and 3rd gears are where you'll notice the difference with the flywheel, really livens the car up.

jaehyun127

i would go with the SR motorsport flywheel and clutch package. Those things are a work of art..i mena beautiful. Also, they come with interchangeable parts, so when they wear, you can just replace parts that are worn in the future.

on average, installation of a flywheel and clutch/pressure plates/counterweight, etc. all run for approximately $350.

i'm getting mine done for $200 b/c i have massive hookups!
I'm also getting the cz 1.1 with 2.0 map ; so i hope i'm not disappointed. i plan on tuning the unit in the summer as my job will suck *** as a lifeguard/and or valet parking guy. I hope i get the internship @ NYC!! (fingers crossed)

mcpheeg

No beacause dastek would have charged me the earth for the tuning of the CZ unit. I still have the unit but I think it will be no use to myself.
Anyway it doesn't account for the CZ unit dropping my HP by 20 when turned on right throughout the range, the map issued with the unit shouldn't have changed anything until about 4000rpm, it was a very mild map.
But even the 0 on the map which should have been standard was completely different.
The last dyno I had done was with the cat removed and my car made 220hp and 227 HP with the unichip but that extra 7 hp was right at the top of the curve.
But as with the rx8, the damn ecu did not like the cat being out, hence the addition of the high flow cat by rmagic, headers supplied buy re-amimya, custom back boxes by a company across here in Scotland called Outrun Performance, lightend flywheel and clutch by Ogura racing and a universal airfilter that I myself jammed into the original airbox.

I am not saying the CZ unit doesn't work but it is defenently not plug and play for UK cars. It would need a lot of hours mucking about and remapping the whole thing from scratch because of the 0 maps not tying up with the stock ecu maps.

Many people are using the Gtech thingy and because that says that the CZ is giving them 20 HP more then they believe it.

I for one think there is no subsitute for the rolling road.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

The CZ can only tune above 5500 rpms, above that gains of 10-20hp at the wheels is fair game depending on how close to the edge you want to go and how much time you want to spend. I'm getting (and have shown) a 10-15hp gain at the wheels on a map conservative enough for 89 octane across the 5500-9000 rpm range on an otherwise stock car. While its nice to have a gain throughout the whole powerband, realistically if you are driving aggressively you will never get below 5500 rpms anyway.

Honestly, it does not take a rocket scientist to tune for WOT - make a run, look at the data, raise/lower the map for each rpm point, and repeat. In an afternoon you should have it done, or work on in once a day for a week on the way home from work like i did.

Also keep in mind the amount of horsepower freed up by a flywheel depends on what gear your in - get good gain in first, less in second, less in third, and basically nothing from 4th-6th gears.

mcpheeg

Okay then look at my dynos and tell me why with the CZ unit on I am getting 20HP less than stock ecu?????????

And that is 20 less throughout the whole range!!!

It is therefore my opinion that the CZ is untuneable as it cannot even mimic the stock ecu.

I have had this argument before and have been shown no proof, dyno charts, that the CZ unit can do what it is supposed to do.

I am running 95-98 octane as that is all that is availbe in the UK.
I know you guys can get anything from 80-95 across there, please don't quote on this the last time I was in the states was a year ago.

I cannot believe that the amreican version can vary that widely from the UK version since they are built in Japan.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

What version of the CZ do you have....if the ign fix is not done...that may explain the results. The map stock doesn't touch anything below 5500...Doesn't make sense it's the A/F map that is dropping the HP like that????????????

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

I agree there is more going on. I have never heard of a person who once they tuned the map to their car, of not getting gains. It would not make sense otherwise. How can you not accept that once a very rich A/F is identified and then corrected it would not increase power?
I wonder what flash he is running. If it is older than M then that may be part of the problem.
Remember a CZ unit is just a well packaged E manage.
I ran a stage one map and a stage 2 map with the M flash. There was a gain ,for me, even with no custom tuning.
olddragger

mcpheeg

ign fix is that where you clip off the two capacitors???

cretinx

GOD we need a PowerFC.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

first tell me how you get a 20 hp loss over the whole range from something that only effects the 5500-9000 rpms range...

then

tell me if its so untuneable why does greddy use it for their turbo kits with good results...

Nemesis8

iTrader: (3)

So, he had his engine removed from the car?

mcpheeg

I put the unit in the car and turn it on = 20 HP loss
I turn the unit off and bingo 20 hp gain.
As can be seen from the dyno sheet.
the blue and red are runs 1 + 2 with CZ on
the other two are with CZ off.

If someone can tell me how to fix this problem I am all ears, the only thing I have been told to do is clip the capacitors off the daughter board. I haven't done this yet, not saying it is a bad system, but hell if it loses 20HP from my car as soon as I turn it on then how can I tune it, especially since everyone is saying that it will not kick in until 5000rpm.

mcpheeg

No he didn't have his engine removed from his car.
The dastek dyno calculates what power is lost and measures it back into the power giving flywheel results.

You can get all the details here
www.dastek.co.uk

If you want to know how this dyno measures then you'll have to email them, had it explained to me a long time ago, forgot most of what I was told, it is meant to be one of the most accurate dynos available on the market.

MadDog

I think its pretty well established that you MUST tune the CZ to get decent results. Maybe the map that was loaded when you got it was trying to tune below 5500 RPM and was fighting the ECU for control. who knows.

The bottom line is that you should get a CanScan and tune it yourself. I think this is by far the most HP/$ you can get. You can get reductions in power if its tuned too lean or too rich for your car. For some reason, each of the 8's is remarkably different off the assembly line. It seems that they each have to learn themselves and how the various sensors are calibrated in order to perform correctly. But, Mazda designed the ECU to do just that. Hence, you can't expect the CZ, with a map designed for some other car, to work on yours.

There are lots of people who have gotten 20+HP gains from it, including myself. It easy to do and you really can't screw it up. Give it a shot. You can always sell it if you find that tuning it is beyond your technical abilities.


-MD

Fanman

^^^
What Mad Dog said. Also you may have a defective/broken unit. Honestly I have seen it give little to no gains before out of the box, but never negative gains. Try to tune it, or maybe it is inoperable & you can ship it back to CZ & get a new unit.