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Really good feedback j9fd3s. I guess that is a solid vote for Ohlins :-)
Interesting comments on damping, my own impression was that my FCM setup could do with a smidge more low speed damping, and possibly less high speed. I had a couple of instructors comment to that effect as well. However, this is mostly coming from stock, or koni setups which probably have way too much low speed damping in at least one direction. The other factor is these impressions were mostly formed on 100 degree afternoons at Thunderhill. On the way to work in the morning when things are cold it feels the opposite, i.e. too stiff. At a temperature somewhere in between it is probably spot on.
Regarding riding curbs, I have been very impressed with my own setup. It obviously can get better, but it is hard to believe it can get much better. I have got away with some pretty stupid moments and it is really only if I hit a kerb too hard while on the absolute limit that I lose traction, and even then it is very easy to catch - basically the car will simply move a few feet and then settle rather than being pitched into a spin. This really has been a confidence inspiring setup for me and I don't even have the later FCM developments of KBO or ripple reduction.
On spring rates, I'm not sure where you are on this Steve, but I think you want to go relatively stiffer in the rear than stock, and not the other way (i.e. lower the front/rear ratio from stock).
Based on my own experience, I think the 425 front and 400 rear you have been recommended is a very good compromise between street and track and for you I would even be tempted to go a little stiffer (maybe 10-15%) since you are not commuting in your car and I assume you are looking for optimal track, rather than optimal back road performance. FYI, my own 425F/375R feels a little soft on track, but a little too stiff on bumpy back roads.
I guess overall my vote remains firstly with a custom setup, and secondly with FCM, since I have direct experience with that (and it really is awesome), but based on j9fd3s's feedback, it seems like you can't go wrong with a custom ohlins setup either.
Last edited by blu3dragon; 11-27-2015 at 12:09 PM.
But, the shop I was talking to called me back after speaking with Bilstein and realizing the seal kits they have will work with these shocks, and there is no magic voodoo involved in rebuilding them. I took them in late last week and got them back early this week. My cost was a little under $400 OTD. I had already ordered a pair of Swift 7K (390lb) springs, so I reinstalled the shocks with those springs after trimming 4mm off the bump stops to bring them down to 36mm. (The rears are inverted monotubes, and therefore do not use bump stops, so nothing to do there.)
My initial impression after driving to work and back twice is that the fronts are slightly under-damped even though the shop supposedly took the new spring rates into account according to their Bilstein book. But that doesn't necessarily have much to do with how they will perform on the track. Slightly under-damped can be a good thing on a smooth track. They could be awesome there. The short story is, I am good to go for December 12, and I will be able to tell more about what I want to do after that event.
I also blew part of the kitty on a used, but almost new set of Enkei RPF1s and RE-71Rs. My tires are almost gone, so I need to do something, and at the price I paid, I bought the rims and got the tires for free. I'll be saving 6lbs per corner while going 1" wider and saving $2-300 per set of tires in the future. Hard to beat that.
We shall see...
Thanks to everyone for the time, help, and insight. I will be splurging on a new suspension soon, and will be utilizing all that great information, but I am back on the track for minimal outlay for the near term.
Last edited by Steve Dallas; 11-27-2015 at 10:12 PM.
BTW, here is a video of me running on my home track where I am a member. This was a rare CW day, but it illustrates my typical performance, and I am too lazy to search out more frequent CCW footage, which is the designated direction for this track. Running it backwards is challenging and fun to be sure. My YT channel has it, and you can look through it if you are so inclined. You'll notice the track is very smooth, and I spend much of my time passing "faster" cars, including Lotuses, Ferraris, Vettes, etc. So, the PSS9s I have now can't totally suck, but I might like to improve upon them in the future. This is my baseline...
Glad to hear that you got it back together and ready for the next track day. One note on the Ohlins rates, if they're progressive and are quoting an initial rate, you really can't make any front/rear split analysis, because that's not the actual rate the suspension will "see" during use.
My initial impression after driving to work and back twice is that the fronts are slightly under-damped even though the shop supposedly took the new spring rates into account according to their Bilstein book.
the Ohlins defiantly do not feel over-damped! the second thought was that you should be able to match the Ohlins damping with the bilstein, its just a matter of valving, it would be a lot of work, but the bilstein is a quality part...
BTW, here is a video of me running on my home track where I am a member. This was a rare CW day, but it illustrates my typical performance, and I am too lazy to search out more frequent CCW footage, which is the designated direction for this track. Running it backwards is challenging and fun to be sure. My YT channel has it, and you can look through it if you are so inclined. You'll notice the track is very smooth, and I spend much of my time passing "faster" cars, including Lotuses, Ferraris, Vettes, etc. So, the PSS9s I have now can't totally suck, but I might like to improve upon them in the future. This is my baseline...
Btw, nice driving, very smooth and precise and looks like you are carrying good speed compared to some of the other cars.
Probably you should forget all about this thread now you have your car back on the road, go play and be happy :-)
OK, I can't help myself. I did spot at least one bump, and shocks will also help with transitions and possibly some of those kerbs, although the ones you want to use appear to be pretty flat... having said that, PSS9 clearly don't suck, so the debate for you now becomes how big of an improvement is on offer and if it is worth the asking prices... (to be honest, I actually think it is a lot to pay, but if you were starting from scratch, the economics would be quite different).
The right rear PSS9 crapped out again after just 1 track day. I will probably eventually send them to Bilstein for factory service, but that will have to wait until later this year. If I don't end up loving the Ohlins, the PSS9s may become FCM Elites now that I have a spare suspension.
I can only review the Ohlins as far as the street is concerned for now. I do have a track day available to me this Saturday, and I am trying to find the time to get the car ready for it. I should be able to make it, so I may be able to review them for track use as early as next week.
The main reason I went with the Ohlins DFV is availability. I needed something fast, and FCM requires 5 to 6 weeks. I was afraid I would not be happy with Bilstein PSS for track applications, and they were on backorder anyway. The Ohlins were in stock, ready to be drop-shipped from Ohlins USA. I ordered them from Brian Goodwin on sale and had them in less than a week.
My first impression upon opening the boxes and inspecting the parts is that they are VERY well made. I was shocked at how lightweight they are. According to my scale, the assembled rears are 4lbs lighter than the Bilsteins per corner, and the fronts are 5.5lbs lighter each.
Installation was simple enough. The only tricky part was feeding the rear adjustment cables and attaching them to the top adjuster with the shock only halfway in position. A helper should make that process simple, but I didn't have one available, so I had to use a jack and lamp cord to hold it in place while I worked in the trunk.
I did not second guess Ohlins on spring preload or ride height. I just verified the measurements and made sure the adjusters were tight before installation. The initial ride heights are: 13.50 RR, 13.250 LR, 13.325 RF, 13.250 LF. My goal is pretty close to 13.5 all around, so they are not far off right out of the box. I actually have corner balance numbers from Cobb tuning with specific ride height numbers per corner that I will match them to after they have had time to settle. (I do understand that since I switched to an independently adjustable setup, those numbers may not be accurate any longer.)
Ohlins recommends a rebound setting of 10 clicks from full soft in the instruction manual, so that is where I put them to start for street use.
This is a 50-miles-driven-on-the-street review, so keep that in mind. These are very initial impressions. I did drive at least half of those miles on empty country roads, so I did have some opportunity to put the suspension through its paces. I was driving on Potenza RE-760 Sport tires, which are my normal street tires of choice. They offer a good balance of ride quality, grip, and noise at an affordable price.
While the spring rates are almost exactly 3x the factory rates, the ride feels like a refined luxury touring car. There is none of the busyness of the Bilsteins with 7K front springs. I have not had my factory suspension in about 3 years now, so I don't remember exactly how it felt, but my initial impressions are that the Ohlins feel better than stock on the street. They are completely predictable to the point of being forgettable in a good way. Sportier and more comfortable at the same time. It's hard to describe and harder to believe.
I purposely hit some low curbs and shallow potholes to test things in that regard. The shocks absorbed them like they were barely there, so I tried again with steering input to try to force a loss of grip. It didn't happen. The car stayed completely planted. During a few hard corners, the car maintained grip and handled my steering inputs perfectly.
In trying to discern if I changed the bias of the car's handling by changing the suspension, I could not make it understeer or oversteer by doing things considered more or less acceptable on the street, so it should still be pretty well balanced. That makes sense, since I did not move very far from my existing spring rates.
In conclusion, Ohlins DFV coilovers are great performers on the street. If you are looking for a premium street driving experience with vastly improved handling characteristics over stock, this product will deliver both. I would also happily recommend them over Bilstein PSS9s with stock springs and 7K front springs.
Stay tuned for the track review...
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 01-27-2016 at 08:59 PM.
Really interested in this thread because the miles are piling up faster than expected on my R3, and I want to make sure I'm well educated whenever the stock dampers get tired.
One of the things I noticed is that the Ohlins DFV kit is specced for all years of the RX-8. I know there were some minor rear suspension tweaks for the S2. Any concerns WRT the out-of-the-box spring and damper rates?
I wouldn't worry too much about your Bilsteins. They should last a very long time. The Toyota/Bilsteins on my 2008 truck have 225K miles on them and are going strong.
The suspension changes to the S2 were mainly related to rear spring perch location, IIRC. In any case, I did not have any concerns about my PSS9s in that regard, and I do not have any concerns about these coilovers either.
One of the really cool things about the Ohlins setup is that spring pre-load and ride height are independent of each other, which makes that spring perch change completely irrelevant.
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 01-27-2016 at 09:47 PM.
I'm not sure if that is a serious question, but they were $2300 from Goodwin Racing.
For any of you who are looking for a suspension upgrade, but not tracking your car, I seriously recommend looking at the Bilstein B14 PSS coilover. It is the non-rebound-adjustable version of the B16 PSS9, and the kit can be bought for around $800 shipped if you are patient and shop around. The spring rates are similar to the Ohlins, and the monotube shocks are valved for something between street and track use (leaning more toward street). In that kit, you get height adjustability and Bilstein quality.
I would not bother with nor pay extra for the PSS9. Its rebound adjuster is largely a gimmick that sort of adjusts ride comfort without actually doing anything useful for actual performance. It is not worth the extra money.
The B14 PSS coilover is far better than anything else costing under $2,000 IMHO.
BUT... For you guys with R3s, consider this. Last season, a guy showed up at my home track as a guest with a bone stock R3. He was a very good driver, and by the end of the day, he was running nearly half a second faster than I was. Granted, my car is a bit heavier than his, but it still proves the driver mod is paramount, and the R3 is a very capable car from the factory.
Semi-serious question; I held out for an R3 due to threads on here, the automotive press, and for those pretty wheels...
My car is a nice-day toy and will go to a half-dozen auto-x or track days a year.
The driver needs a lot of modding. I have occasional moments of brilliance but little consistency. A better investment of $2,500 would certainly be track time.
I am curious about the Ohlins as I find the R3 to be somewhat uncivilized for street use. It is borderline harsh. The best setup cars I've experienced have a magical combination of very nice road manners combined with excellent track performance. My previous car (2000 Corvette), had that combination after much experimentation; 2 years trying many setups. Composed, almost luxurious on the street, while very stable and controllable on the track, even the poor/mixed surface of ECR. I could not take full advantage of it myself due to limited abilities, but several (very good) instructors had very positive feedback after a couple laps.
The stock Porsche Cayman S has that mix; but depreciation must do more work before I can experience one on a routine basis!
Ohlins also have a certain magnetism due to excellent branding, reputation, and 'look how pretty!'
Completely agree that the R3 is borderline harsh. Reducing that harshness, and maybe improving the tactility of the controls a bit, would make it pretty much perfect IMO.
I'm just super skeptical that that's even possible without drawbacks. I've seen plenty of people who have modded their suspensions with net-positive effects, but none without drawbacks that I would consider significant on the R3 -- quirky limit behavior, loss of what FCM calls "flat-ride", etc.
Also really looking forward to the track review. Will be watching closely.
I've had multiple suspension setups on my car and I would go with the KW Variant V3 coilovers.
I have them on my car for the passed year or two, using only Michelin Pilot Super Sports and I'd have to say they are by far the best option. Anyone who says otherwise, either did not set them up properly without scaling the car, are using cheap tires or simply can't drive.
On lighter settings, it's perfect for the street, not too rough at all, honestly quite comfortable but when you set up the car properly, you'll be amazed what this car can do. I've taken corners at similar speeds of 911's and so forth. Unlike most coilovers or shock/spring setups, with cheap, underrated springs in the rear that bottom out over most bumps, especially with passengers, I can assure you, KW does not have that problem.
my thoughts after input from people are that going aftermarket from the R3 stock suspension requires going with a lot of suspension work (ohlins or fcm + some sort of suspension tuning). I'm likely going BACK to the stock setup when the bilsteins go...
I don't find the setup to be harsh on the street - though I may have a higher tolerance for that than others. I've ridden with friends of mine in other cars with coilover setups (granted not on the Ohlins level), and I found that to be a lot more jarring than the stock R3 setup.
What actually bothers me more on a long drive is the seat, lol.
Semi-serious question; I held out for an R3 due to threads on here, the automotive press, and for those pretty wheels...
My car is a nice-day toy and will go to a half-dozen auto-x or track days a year.
The driver needs a lot of modding. I have occasional moments of brilliance but little consistency. A better investment of $2,500 would certainly be track time.
I am curious about the Ohlins as I find the R3 to be somewhat uncivilized for street use. It is borderline harsh. The best setup cars I've experienced have a magical combination of very nice road manners combined with excellent track performance. My previous car (2000 Corvette), had that combination after much experimentation; 2 years trying many setups. Composed, almost luxurious on the street, while very stable and controllable on the track, even the poor/mixed surface of ECR. I could not take full advantage of it myself due to limited abilities, but several (very good) instructors had very positive feedback after a couple laps.
The stock Porsche Cayman S has that mix; but depreciation must do more work before I can experience one on a routine basis!
Ohlins also have a certain magnetism due to excellent branding, reputation, and 'look how pretty!'
Looking forward to the track review.
Come down to Motorsport Ranch in Cresson. ECR is an interesting track, but it is not terribly well-suited to the RX-8 due to its landing-strips-followed-by-U-turns layout. MSR is all about the corners, and it essentially has 4 configurations, which keeps things interesting. It is a track that humbles all but the best handling cars. I am a member there, but you can run the track with Apex Driving Academy (favored) or Driver's Edge among other schools.
11-25-2015, 12:07 AM
