mrazny

iTrader: (1)

Has anyone besides Sipe considered the E-85 switch? It's a huge commit (fuel pump, injectors, Adaptronic), will increase maintenance, and might not play well with the Oil injected...

But reduced temps is intellectually engaging, even if there isn't appreciable tuned HP from it.

Tamra

Why do you think it would require upgrades to the fuel pump, injectors, and ecu?

The drying affect of alcohol would definitely need to be mitigated. You would also need an alcohol friendly premix.

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

From in part Sipe's comments in other places on E85. If my memory serves, in stock form Mark was only able to handle appropriate fuel loads for up to E60 with Stock Pump and injectors. On the upgraded injectors, he actually sealed off the Primary and had to use the secondary location to actually fit the larger injector he wanted to use. The ability to do this is a function that the Adaptronic can handle to instead consider firing from the secondary location as truly the primary for the ECU controls. Though maybe the Cobb/Mazedit could do this, but I don't know enough about it at this time.

Though of course Jeff Hurst did figure out some sort of e85 usage in 2013 with a Cobb and stock fuel delivery. Anecdotally there's room to optimize further with increased fuel loads.

My first hope would be to have an Alcohol friendly 2-stroke oil for a Sohn to keep delivering in place of Pre-Mix, but that's in part from some discussions about pre-mix legality (though that was in ST). Certainly I should dive into rules language to feel out if Pre-Mix is still disallowed in SP.

Tamra

They actually just clarified that premix is permitted. I am not certain a Sohn adapter is though...

SCCA rules 2017:
14.10 M. Cars with combustion chamber oil injection systems (such as those in rotary
engines) may supplement the standard engine lubrication with additional
oil supplied through the standard fuel delivery system.

Do you know why Sipe had to seal off the primaries? Why not just upgrade the primaries and secondaries?

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

In one of the e85 threads he mentioned the primary couldn't fit the injector size he wanted, and that the injector he did use supplies enough fuel for what he wants to do. Some of it may be overkill for DSP needs. I always got the impression he was making sure whatever he did could handle whatever SM project the car may evolve into.

That's great news on pre-mix!

At first blush without thinking it through too much, I would imagine if the Sohn would not be considered part of our fuel system allowances, it would be captured within our oil system allowances. Replacing the washer bottle for a different container I'd be wary of. Using the washer bottle as the 2-stroke container however is closer to first blush "OK" I think.

If I'm recalling correctly, isn't Mark in Japan?

Silverhks

I think he closed off the primaries due to his upgraded injectors in the secondary location being sufficient. I don't know if I saw any logic for or against it other than that.

Mrazny
To answer your original question, I am planning on going e85 when I start the power part of my build. Due to time and finances though that probably won't be until next winter.
Also did you get the giken from that part out? A friend alerted me to it but I saw you were already talking to him.

And that is good news on the premix, although I too would prefer to run a sohn. I'm just not sure we can justify it under the rules. I need to reread the oiling allowances.

BLUE TII

SCCA rules 2017:
14.10 M. Cars with combustion chamber oil injection systems (such as those in rotary
engines) may supplement the standard engine lubrication with additional
oil supplied through the standard fuel delivery system.

Yeah, that is just great. A rules clarification that requires clarification.

In SCCA solo rules parlance

supplied through the standard fuel delivery system

the word they unnecessarily added "standard" is an SCCA keyword with defined meaning in the rules and so indicates that according to the "clarification" premix may only be added to a stock as delivered fuel system.

SCCA sucks at rules.

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

That language is definitely specifically with pre-mix in mind.

Unfortunately, I think I saw Mark opine about the Sohn within the STX thread at some point about "no for STX, yes in SP", but that unruly beast is not something i want to read through again...

that said, i might be overthinking it anyway...

15.10 Engine and Drivetrain

"A. Engines must retain standard type lubricating system, but may have any
oil pan (Accusump®-type systems allowed), oil pump and pickup, oil
cooler(s), or oil or fuel filters. Fuel filters must be of automotive type and
may serve no other purpose; a substituted fuel filter may not be used as
a reservoir. Substituted fuel filters may not exceed one quart total capacity.
A permitted oil cooler may be positioned in an opening in an allowed
spoiler, provided no unauthorized modifications are made in order to per- form the installation. Any power steering fluid cooler may be added."

OMP is just an Oil pump. We're allowed any. The sohn just changes where said pump gets it's oil. I guess we'd have to call the 2-stroke container a new "oil pan" maybe?

I'm more concerned currently about the "easy button"s for where to store the 2-stroke oil. Replacing the Washer bottle isn't allowable (i guess i have to say IMO). And I'm also unsure about it being allowed to cut a hole in the washer bottle to utilize it either. It would be however no issue to just clamp some other container anywhere in the engine bay.

That said, between all the commentary of the DSP grid, the current people wouldn't likely protest something like that. You could also easily argue that the removed plastic is not a net performance increase as we've added total weight in oil, and we're certainly allowed to drain a washer bottle. It'd be subject to the whims of that PC, but at least you'd have a credible no performance gain argument, and fits with the recent reliability mission statement.

NotAPreppie

Not that this applies, because, you know, RACECAR...

But, the tiny-*** washer fluid reservoir that comes with the Epitrochoid kit is annoyingly small. I'm considering putting the original washer bottle back in and then finding another way to mount the Sohn bottle.

Silverhks

I would argue that a SOHN adaptor is the equivalent to an accusump. They both inject oil into the engine when required.

The hardest part about changing classes is finding/learning the rules clarifications published in Fastrack. There is no easy way to search them.



Yep, doesn't apply when a long run is 2 minutes. Just top off in between...

NotAPreppie

It's mostly in the driving between events that it gets annoying.

Silverhks

Yep, since my car won't even be plated it won't be a problem for me.

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

Tow and Trailer is another expansion of the budget I don't have available yet. But something like a Grand Cherokee that can be my daily and an open alumnium trailer could be down the line.

Though the talk is "don't touch castor, gummy desctruction!", just learning that Kiesel and Andy use Maxima Castor 927, no OMP (on dedicated auto-cross only cars that probably don't see much cold) without issue makes me wonder about the end-point castor worries. Though those are FD and custom 3-rotor setups, so a few variables in there.

OMP, possibly with whatever good pre-mix we'd like, probably need to up the OMP rate for the extra fuel load
Alcohol-compatible pre-mix, possible gumminess...

or A+B...

I guess, just who knows? I've probably got a rebuild necessary within the next year and a half (maybe sooner actually), so part of me wants to jump right in so I can see the effects of whatever method I go with when the rebuild comes along.

NotAPreppie

When you're guys are talking alcohol compatibility, what criteria are you looking for?
Is this just solubility/miscibility, chemical reactions or something else?

Silverhks

I don't know what kind of issues we might run into with injecting premix into the combustion chamber with e85. I'm sure there is someone who has that knowledge but I don't and it sounds like mrazny doesn't either.

Although I disagree with him that the 3 rotor is a different beast when it comes to premix and e85. It should behave the same way in this regards. I haven't talked to Keisel or Andy about what they are doing, I'm not even sure what fuel they are running.

I am more friendly with some of the FD SM guys but I haven't discussed it with them either.

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

I was hoping to only say there are some variables vs. it's truly a different beast, in part due to the side port exhaust method. But not knowing enough about their specific builds, I just thought it would be important to know there is some variable, to go with all of our unknowns

I currently think until my car becomes a trailer queen that e85 will sit on the sidelines.

I'll pursue a different idea, and just hope we're talented enough to pull it off for this offseason.

gigglehurtz

I've yet to find conclusive evidence that E85 on a N/A Renesis actually makes more power. Those who know aren't talking.

But, if it actually makes more power with no increase in weight, then it's pretty much a given that a top-level DSP RX8 should have it.

Silverhks

More power or not the cooling effect I can only see as a positive.

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

Absolutely! I'm about to throw a bunch of money at cooling.

archwisp

iTrader: (1)

Where are you guys located? I have more trouble keeping oil temp UP in the spring and fall sessions than I have trouble keeping ECTs down in the summer.

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

Autocross application or Race application? I'm in Chicago, so locally we see temps from 50 to 95 typically (and humid). National tour wise there have definitely been hotter, depends on the timing.

Race application vs. autocross application throws a lot of inefficient idleing into the mix. One of many best things about eventually becoming a trailer queen is not running into stop and go on the highway for long stretches. Actively feeling the A/C going away is enlightening.

A/C is coming off the car anyway, I'll have to actively cool myself during trips the year at minimum, but the A/C is failing for other over-heating reasons that would not be going away on the same trip.

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

by the way, i can't confirm if it works all the way to order, but outperformance puts the pf01's in my cart, and coupon code blackfriday currently works on the website. I doubt a blackfriday code was supposed to work this long... Full set for $1,550 shipped...

Silverhks

I live and play in the southeast (Chattanooga TN specifically). Everything gets hot here from April to December.

The cooling effect is in the intaake charge though. It helps with predetonation and lowering EGT. It might/probably will lower oil and coolant temps but I have never dealt with a tuned rotary that didn't need help in this area.

mrazny

iTrader: (1)

FACT, I visited my cousin in Jackson, TN in late April thinking it wouldn't be crazy hot. I was damn wrong.

Silverhks

Anybody make a first event with their car yet?

Mine has hit a major snag, intermittently it has spark. I think I have narrowed it down to the ecm.