Ice racing!!
01-30-2008, 10:34 AM
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Ice racing!!
Hey all, just wanted to share some info about a type of racing alot of people may not be aware of 
Last weekend was my first time ice racing in upstate NY. The basic idea is - you wait for a lake to freeze over, get some winter tires, and go wild
There are of course full-on race car classes (with studded tires), but I'm racing in the Steet Legal class. I've got a thread in the multimedia forum with some pics and vids. The club's website is here.
So, after getting past the idea of sitting on a thin layer of ice on top of a lake, the racing itself is very interesting. The SL class had a little over 30 cars enter this year, and the track was a little shorter than usual (0.7 miles vs what they usually try to make it - 1.5mi+ ). Things were a little crowded, and as a first time "wheel to wheel" racer, on ice, i went through practice and the first race heat holding onto the wheel for dear life (and ended up in a snow bank towards the end of heat 1 - the track gets polished off as the cars go around, so towards the end your traction is much less than when you started). Nevertheless, after surviving the baptism by fire, I had alot of fun in heats 2 and 3.
So, the point of this thread is to ask for advice for my setup and technique, and probably for people to call me crazy for doing this...
The track itself was a bit of a surprise to me. I expected a hockey-rink smooth surface, but it's actually very bumpy, with various grooves... As the day wears on, the studded classes also chew up the track, and water forms at points as well. There is usually a thin layer of snow in the outside of turns (although they run the snow plows through in between heats).
Setup-wise, to begin with, I am at a disadvantage with a heavier car than most, and the stiff suspention doesn't help either. I think the first thing I will do is disconnect the swaybars to add a little stability, and maybe lower the tire pressure to allow them to conform to the ice's surface more easily.
Technique-wise, I spent most of the first day getting used to the ice, so I just focused on grip driving and learning the limits of traction on the various types of surface. This was tough as I was mostly fighting understeer on the entry, with snap oversteer on the exit. Towards the end though, I experimented with some entry-oriented drift lines, which seemed to work much better.
So yeah, any advice on setup, technique, or any random questions or comments are welcome!
Thanks,
-D
Last weekend was my first time ice racing in upstate NY. The basic idea is - you wait for a lake to freeze over, get some winter tires, and go wild
There are of course full-on race car classes (with studded tires), but I'm racing in the Steet Legal class. I've got a thread in the multimedia forum with some pics and vids. The club's website is here.So, after getting past the idea of sitting on a thin layer of ice on top of a lake, the racing itself is very interesting. The SL class had a little over 30 cars enter this year, and the track was a little shorter than usual (0.7 miles vs what they usually try to make it - 1.5mi+ ). Things were a little crowded, and as a first time "wheel to wheel" racer, on ice, i went through practice and the first race heat holding onto the wheel for dear life (and ended up in a snow bank towards the end of heat 1 - the track gets polished off as the cars go around, so towards the end your traction is much less than when you started). Nevertheless, after surviving the baptism by fire, I had alot of fun in heats 2 and 3.
So, the point of this thread is to ask for advice for my setup and technique, and probably for people to call me crazy for doing this...
The track itself was a bit of a surprise to me. I expected a hockey-rink smooth surface, but it's actually very bumpy, with various grooves... As the day wears on, the studded classes also chew up the track, and water forms at points as well. There is usually a thin layer of snow in the outside of turns (although they run the snow plows through in between heats).
Setup-wise, to begin with, I am at a disadvantage with a heavier car than most, and the stiff suspention doesn't help either. I think the first thing I will do is disconnect the swaybars to add a little stability, and maybe lower the tire pressure to allow them to conform to the ice's surface more easily.
Technique-wise, I spent most of the first day getting used to the ice, so I just focused on grip driving and learning the limits of traction on the various types of surface. This was tough as I was mostly fighting understeer on the entry, with snap oversteer on the exit. Towards the end though, I experimented with some entry-oriented drift lines, which seemed to work much better.
So yeah, any advice on setup, technique, or any random questions or comments are welcome!
Thanks,
-D
01-30-2008, 02:21 PM
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Hey CnnmnSchnpps,
Your not crazy, ice racing is a total blast. I race motorcycles on the ice, we have a 3 hr endurance race coming up in a week. http://dansalton.smugmug.com/gallery...245575356-M-LB I love driving on the snow and ice no matter what the vehicle.
Things to remember on the ice, especially with the "fluff" or "corn" that gets on top of the ice from the studs chewing it up is that your non-studded tires will have the best traction if they are spinning or slipping, but only by the right amount. You want the tread to kind of build-up or pack the loose stuff to make a kind of cushion for the tires to push against. You need to manage the amount of slip to something around 10-20%, in other words if your accelerating and the car is going 40mph you want the rear tires going 44 to 48mph to get maximum acceleration. Same for braking, start braking early enough to manage the slip all the way into the corner. Exit corners a gear high so the RPM is low, you can manage the oversteer easier that way. You will have more than enough power even at 4,000 RPM, you just have to learn throttle control. Use of some drifting lines is ok for allot of corners, sliding and starting the oversteer process early in a turn can help you slow the car, and manage the understeer you would get otherwise. As long as you are running non-studded, softening the suspension by disconnecting the sway bars is fine. I would start with just removing the front and trying that, then the rear. Oh yes, the right tires make all the difference in the world.
Have fun and let us know how it goes.
Your not crazy, ice racing is a total blast. I race motorcycles on the ice, we have a 3 hr endurance race coming up in a week. http://dansalton.smugmug.com/gallery...245575356-M-LB I love driving on the snow and ice no matter what the vehicle.
Things to remember on the ice, especially with the "fluff" or "corn" that gets on top of the ice from the studs chewing it up is that your non-studded tires will have the best traction if they are spinning or slipping, but only by the right amount. You want the tread to kind of build-up or pack the loose stuff to make a kind of cushion for the tires to push against. You need to manage the amount of slip to something around 10-20%, in other words if your accelerating and the car is going 40mph you want the rear tires going 44 to 48mph to get maximum acceleration. Same for braking, start braking early enough to manage the slip all the way into the corner. Exit corners a gear high so the RPM is low, you can manage the oversteer easier that way. You will have more than enough power even at 4,000 RPM, you just have to learn throttle control. Use of some drifting lines is ok for allot of corners, sliding and starting the oversteer process early in a turn can help you slow the car, and manage the understeer you would get otherwise. As long as you are running non-studded, softening the suspension by disconnecting the sway bars is fine. I would start with just removing the front and trying that, then the rear. Oh yes, the right tires make all the difference in the world.
Have fun and let us know how it goes.
01-30-2008, 03:58 PM
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This time was Lake Algonquin in Wells NY. It's on Sundays and maybe a few Saturdays. They will also have an event on Lake George during the festival.
Check out http://www.icerace.com if you're interested, there's very few requirements to run and it's really cheap for the amount of seat time you get.
Check out http://www.icerace.com if you're interested, there's very few requirements to run and it's really cheap for the amount of seat time you get.
02-25-2008, 01:16 AM
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It's 2am. I just got back from the race... I left the house this morning at.. 2am
This weekend I participated in a 3 hour endurance race run by the NMIRA, up in Maine. These guys are more hardcore than the AMEC, or should I say, they do not have a separate "street legal" class, nor a no-contact rule... This made for a fun time on the ice amid gutted and caged cars with studded tires and no exhaust systems (some by design, some inadvertently - after losing it on the ice)... I tried my best to stay out of everyone's way, and the locals were very considerate in avoiding contact. I am happy to report that the 8 escaped unscathed...
Racing for 3 hours straight is no joke.. Especially since the ice was extremely rough this time.. The F'in snowmobiles made huge ruts in the surface while it was slushy, and these then froze to create a pretty nasty surface... The 8 held up admirably, and made the 6 hour trip home without issue
I have about 70 minutes of video to try and edit into something presentable.. Unfortunately, this is from the first 70 minutes of the race, while I was still struggling to find my lines and entry speeds... I wish my memory card hadn't filled up because the last half hour would have been alot more interesting, with some proper braking drift action
Will post some more details tomorrow.. I made a couple discoveries that could be helpful to people driving on the street as well
This weekend I participated in a 3 hour endurance race run by the NMIRA, up in Maine. These guys are more hardcore than the AMEC, or should I say, they do not have a separate "street legal" class, nor a no-contact rule... This made for a fun time on the ice amid gutted and caged cars with studded tires and no exhaust systems (some by design, some inadvertently - after losing it on the ice
)... I tried my best to stay out of everyone's way, and the locals were very considerate in avoiding contact. I am happy to report that the 8 escaped unscathed...Racing for 3 hours straight is no joke.. Especially since the ice was extremely rough this time.. The F'in snowmobiles made huge ruts in the surface while it was slushy, and these then froze to create a pretty nasty surface... The 8 held up admirably, and made the 6 hour trip home without issue
I have about 70 minutes of video to try and edit into something presentable.. Unfortunately, this is from the first 70 minutes of the race, while I was still struggling to find my lines and entry speeds... I wish my memory card hadn't filled up because the last half hour would have been alot more interesting, with some proper braking drift action
Will post some more details tomorrow.. I made a couple discoveries that could be helpful to people driving on the street as well
02-28-2008, 10:42 AM
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Copying in a discussion that got started on another thread
heh well if you do any sort of racing you'd best not be "playing around" ... but after the day yesterday i'm ever further convinced that ice racing is the best way to get into racing in general...
not only is it really easy to get out there wheel to wheel (vs spending thousands on NASA school), but mistakes cost you very little... In 4 hours on the ice yesterday i got stuck in a snow bank twice (once during practice, once about 2 hours into the race), and had 3 more spins in the center of the track. Had this been a real track I think that first little messup would have ended the day for me (tire/concrete walls are much less forgiving than snow ).
With so little traction to work with, you are forced to pay attention to weight transfer and work out any bad habits very quickly.
heh well if you do any sort of racing you'd best not be "playing around" ... but after the day yesterday i'm ever further convinced that ice racing is the best way to get into racing in general...
not only is it really easy to get out there wheel to wheel (vs spending thousands on NASA school), but mistakes cost you very little... In 4 hours on the ice yesterday i got stuck in a snow bank twice (once during practice, once about 2 hours into the race), and had 3 more spins in the center of the track. Had this been a real track I think that first little messup would have ended the day for me (tire/concrete walls are much less forgiving than snow ).
With so little traction to work with, you are forced to pay attention to weight transfer and work out any bad habits very quickly.
02-28-2008, 10:43 AM
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Brewt13b
HPDE events from NASA are probably a better way to get onto the track. With the professional guidance and education: 45min On track 45 in class for a full day will improve your abilities as a driver. 4hrs on ice is not for beginners!!!
http://www.nasaproracing.com/
Find a program near you, its the best time you can have with your car. Show n Go is all fine but to learn on track will blow you away.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/
Find a program near you, its the best time you can have with your car. Show n Go is all fine but to learn on track will blow you away.
02-28-2008, 10:44 AM
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I'm a beginner Prior to this ice racing season I had not done any racing, not even auto-x. I survived Of course, some people learn better when they have direction but for me, for now, it's enough to read up on a bunch of theory then go out there and toss the car around getting a feel for things. I think that for assimilating the basics, paying for an instructor is a waste of money. Once I have a firm grip on the basics then I will pay for driving school, and get alot more out of it
The big advantage (from the point of view of forcing you to learn) of ice over pavement is you have NO room for error. Of course, this requires a certain approach (starting slow and working your way up, not the other way around), but your mistakes are exposed very clearly (vs on pavement where you can cover up for mistakes with grip and power, and would therefore need an instructor to point them out to you).
I'm not saying everyone should rush to the lakes and start tearing it up, but if you bring the right attitude you get a great crash course (figuratively speaking) in car control, racing lines, and especially paying attention to what's around you.
Prior to this ice racing season I had not done any racing, not even auto-x. I survived Of course, some people learn better when they have direction but for me, for now, it's enough to read up on a bunch of theory then go out there and toss the car around getting a feel for things. I think that for assimilating the basics, paying for an instructor is a waste of money. Once I have a firm grip on the basics then I will pay for driving school, and get alot more out of it The big advantage (from the point of view of forcing you to learn) of ice over pavement is you have NO room for error. Of course, this requires a certain approach (starting slow and working your way up, not the other way around), but your mistakes are exposed very clearly (vs on pavement where you can cover up for mistakes with grip and power, and would therefore need an instructor to point them out to you).
I'm not saying everyone should rush to the lakes and start tearing it up, but if you bring the right attitude you get a great crash course (figuratively speaking) in car control, racing lines, and especially paying attention to what's around you.
02-28-2008, 10:45 AM
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Brewt13b
Where ICE Racing will be advantageous in teaching you how to handle unexpected loss of traction, throttle control, and love for ice which is very important to control.
Try an HPDE before you brush it off, you will find it an amazing experience and worth every penny. Your not always with the instructor. It is just for the beginning so that he can make sure your not going to be the black flag on the field. Regardless his points are very important. Most important, the instructor will try to understand how well you know your car and will base his advise on that. If you can't go 120 into turn 2 then he's never going to advise it. Slow and smooth makes Fast.
PHDE will teach you things you can use for developing the FAST way around a track.
Key Factors that are different from ice racing:
Both sports will trash your car faster than you can imagine and you don't have to crash for it to happen. Tracking / Racing a car will load the car's mechanical parts which will produce a quicker rate of change than driving on street.
Before doing anything prepare your car and your self.
Try an HPDE before you brush it off, you will find it an amazing experience and worth every penny. Your not always with the instructor. It is just for the beginning so that he can make sure your not going to be the black flag on the field. Regardless his points are very important. Most important, the instructor will try to understand how well you know your car and will base his advise on that. If you can't go 120 into turn 2 then he's never going to advise it. Slow and smooth makes Fast.
PHDE will teach you things you can use for developing the FAST way around a track.
Key Factors that are different from ice racing:
- available traction
- how fast is the turn
- handling characteristics (different tires, balance, etc)
- late apex turns
- early apex turns
- the line
- brake control
- loading the tires and suspension
- initiating the turn
- hitting the apexes
- and many more...
Both sports will trash your car faster than you can imagine and you don't have to crash for it to happen. Tracking / Racing a car will load the car's mechanical parts which will produce a quicker rate of change than driving on street.
Before doing anything prepare your car and your self.
02-28-2008, 10:45 AM
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I'm not discounting HPDEs at all, I will definitely do quite a few this summer. What I'm trying to say is I believe that you will get alot more out of them if you already have the basics down, and there is no better place to learn those basics than on the ice ( i sound like a telemarketer )
From your list above, there are a couple of things that will be exactly the same between the ice and track, after accounting for the difference in traction:
Things that will be different due to added traction on track:
In my mind the only real difference will be in things directly related to added traction - speed of the turn, balance, suspention setup (due to added cornering forces).. The fundamental techniques don't change and it's alot easier to work on those in a limited traction situation - since you can push it over the edge "easier" and the consequences of messing up aren't as severe (spin at 30mph vs spin at 70mph
)
I can't wait for the next event..
BTW if anyone is interested they are also having a "time trials" event near Boston, so if anyone wants to get on the ice without the risk of bumping into other cars, PM me for details.. Less seat time than a real race, but should still be lots of fun.
)From your list above, there are a couple of things that will be exactly the same between the ice and track, after accounting for the difference in traction:
- the line
- - initiating the turn
- - hitting the apexes
- - late apex turns
- - early apex turns
- brake control
- and many more...
Things that will be different due to added traction on track:
- available traction
- - how fast is the turn
- - handling characteristics (different tires, balance, etc)
- - loading the tires and suspension
- and many more...
In my mind the only real difference will be in things directly related to added traction - speed of the turn, balance, suspention setup (due to added cornering forces).. The fundamental techniques don't change and it's alot easier to work on those in a limited traction situation - since you can push it over the edge "easier" and the consequences of messing up aren't as severe (spin at 30mph vs spin at 70mph
)I can't wait for the next event..
BTW if anyone is interested they are also having a "time trials" event near Boston, so if anyone wants to get on the ice without the risk of bumping into other cars, PM me for details.. Less seat time than a real race, but should still be lots of fun.
02-28-2008, 10:50 AM
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... there we go.
Would love some feedback from a wider audience too. My assumption is that the line is the line, and available traction will only affect how fast you can drive it.
Putting aside such concepts as the "wet line" (on a track, in the rain, water will bring up all sorts of nasties and make the "dry line" slick so you might be better off looking for traction elsewhere)... Would you say this assumption is accurate? Or are there times where a decrease in traction calls for a different line on the same track?
Would love some feedback from a wider audience too. My assumption is that the line is the line, and available traction will only affect how fast you can drive it.
Putting aside such concepts as the "wet line" (on a track, in the rain, water will bring up all sorts of nasties and make the "dry line" slick so you might be better off looking for traction elsewhere)... Would you say this assumption is accurate? Or are there times where a decrease in traction calls for a different line on the same track?
02-29-2008, 05:55 PM
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Lines vary depending on a lot of variables. 1stly based on traction available. You will not be taking the same line I do through a 300R corner on ice as to pavement. Just a lot of differences...now ice racing must be one hell of a way to learn slip angle control.
Last edited by Brewt13b; 02-29-2008 at 06:06 PM.
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