learycd

iTrader: (1)

im pretty new to autocrossing ive been to a bunch of events and i love it

question regarding the tires, im running all season bridgestone potenzas, yeah i know but they came with the car, they are new, and im not made of money lol. all suspension is stock on my grand touring

this weekend i ran 44.1 on a particular setup. now i know i prob lost a second or two in mistakes, that is driving mistakes that i was conciously aware of. but the tires seemed like they were really crapping out. i got sideways a little too much for my liking

another rx8 was running 41, and yet another one had some suspension/engine mods was running 39ish on the same course. both had good performance tires

my question, how much time do you lose from crappy all seasons? and what tires would you recomment for autox?

thanks guys i appreciate it!

Mr. Pockets

As a beginner, the number one improvement you're going to see for quite some time is in your driving. I caution novices against changing anything on the car before they're more consistent and competitive.

That being said, there is something to be said for having a stable, consistent platform on which to learn. Unfortunately, most street tires don't necessarily provide that. They don't deal well with heat, so they overheat and start to lose grip. The better you get, the quicker this is going to happen.

One cheap solution is to get a couple $10 garden sprayers and water down your tires in between runs. That lowers their temperature a surprising amount and gets you some grip back for your next run. Unfortunately, even with spraying, a lot of street tires are going to let go halfway through a run anyway.

My advice would be to get a good street tire to learn on and keep the temperatures down by spraying. Falken Azenis are a really good bang for the buck and are pretty consistent. Kumho MXs aren't exactly competitive, but I found those consistent as well.

HeavyMetal699

I'm somewhat in the same boat except I'm using my OEM tires as practice tires. While it kills me to watch new guys come in with fresh Azenis and match(or beat) my time, I am definitely improving and when I do get decent tires I should see a very nice improvement in time.

I will also say that driving on R-compounds are completely different than street tires. I think when I am financially able to make the jump I will have to relearn how to drive the car on the course all over again.


If you become an autocross junky R-compounds become the cheaper way to go since autocrossing is not nice on street tires(at least the places here).

xsnipersgox

my recommendation.. at least get Hi performance summer tires... all seasons are just not that good for autocrossing.

Mr. Pockets

I don't recommend r-comps for novices. I think it's much better to learn on a tire that is a little more forgiving and doesn't make you feel like a hero as soon as you put them on.

Good street tires deal with autocrossing just fine. You're right, some tires are going to come apart in chunks, but the two I suggested are good examples of forgiving, consistent tires that wear well and won't break the bank.

HeavyMetal699

I agree. When starting out regular street tires are the best. After a dozen events though, getting a dedicated set of tires for autocross would be the way to go. This especially holds true if you live someplace that gets cold.


All season tires don't seem to hold together any better than high performance summer tires in autocross.

xsnipersgox

i thought all season tires tend to "melt" more than high performance summer tire? and melting is not something we want?

Mr. Pockets

Of course they don't and I'm not advocating using all-seasons. I said 'a good street tire.' And it doesn't have to be a set that you change into before and after every event - you can drive on Azenis every day if you want. I drove home on mine for an hour and a half in some very heavy rain Saturday.

Sniper, no, I haven't seen street tires 'melt.' But typical tires, which aren't made for the type of driving seen in an autocross, can wear in funny ways because the tread blocks are small and squirm a lot. They also don't deal with heat nearly as well, so they can get 'greasy' very quickly. They can even come apart in chunks if pushed too far.

mwood

I think the common "wisdom" of not starting out on DOT R's is an old wive's tale...my first year autocrossing (2005), I went straight to DOT R's on my Z06 and was able to win the first National Tour I ever entered, beating the then current SS National Champ and a number of other guys who had jackets...if I had stuck to the prevailing party line of starting on some crappy compromise tires "to learn" I never would have had that wonderful experience and might not be enjoying the sport anywhere near as much as I'm able to, today.

The fact is any tire has it's own, unique characteristics and it takes the same "seat of the pants" and capability to exploit a R tire as it does a 140 tread wear, as it does to drive a M+S...and the part about DOT R's "covering up" errors is totally false, as the clocks don't lie. If you're driving crappy on R's, you're still gonna get beat, you'll just do so at higher g levels and with a bigger smile on your face.

HeavyMetal699

I wasn't arguing with you, just trying to add more to the thread.

I would also suggest hitting up your local forum and attempt to get others to come out with you. In Houston autocross we went from 2 RX-8's to 7 RX-8's and the number is increasing.

One of the local guys went through a set of all seasons in record time. I think he's switching back to Kumhos.

As a side note my tires are not consistant at all and it frustrates me to no end. Some runs it feels like I take a giant leap back in skill when the tires fail to provide any grip at all.

CRX Millennium

iTrader: (1)

Just to keep things in perspective, mwood conveniently left out some crucial facts that he did Formula V in the heydays and was an avid motorcycle racer?

So if you have some sort of motorsport experience or background, by all means, go for DOT R. Autocross is very much a region-specific competition unless you compete on the national level. It all depends on what fast guys run in your class. NNJR SCCA has Dmitry (350Z) and Lawrence (RX-8) on DOT R when I was there, two-years ago.

mwood

Yes, I did have some seat time in Vintage Formula Vee's and Formula Fords, had done some AFM production racing and also a couple of years of open track events with Shelby club, so I came in to autocross with some experience. But, to be honest, just messing around on bicycles and mini bikes as a kid taught me just as much about managing the friction circle...and exceeding it

I still stand by my statement that starting on DOT R's will not "hurt" your development as a driver. You will still be learning the exact same things you would learn on any other tire, just at higher friction coefficients. Plus, buying a set of used oem rims and a set of V710's may, arguably, end up saving you money, if you run a fairly full autocross schedule.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I am with Wood on this... When I hear people say "you should wait to get R tires", I think those are people that don't want to get beat by a newbie. The horse$hit about R tires hiding mistakes is just that. If you cant drive it wont matter what tire or car you have. Some cars have inherent issues that go away when you put good tires on them, that does not mean they made you a better driver.

Learning to drive the car on street tires will not advance your learning curve in any way. First thing every driver (no matter the car or tire) has to learn is the line, and tires wont change that. Getting in tune with the car on street tires just means you have to do it all over when you switch to sticky stuff. Turn-in, braking, acceleration and corner speed are much higher on R tires, and if you are coming from a ST tire you will be driving well beneath there limits.

No single mod will bring your car to life like the tires.

Look at all the fools (imho) that spend thousand of $$$$ (TRX8 can confirm this) to try and make modified car on street tires go as fast as a stock car on R tires. I can have a 100% civilized car to drive to work every day, and with a simple change of tires go 2-3 secs quicker around the track.

R tires are like having a wife and girlfriend at the same time.

learycd

iTrader: (1)

yeah with the all seasons, i looked at the wear after the event and it was pretty bad, looked like chunks missing all over the place

so are we saying that i can go R compounds if i wish? wouldnt that take me out of B stock tho?

if i preferr to stay in B stock, what would be a good non R compoind tire to look into, cause i really think im gonna be crapping all over these all seasons if i take them to a couple more events...

thansk again!

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

All DOT approved R tires are legal in stock class Solo. However, looking at your list of mods your intake and AP are not stock legal.

The Kumho V710 is my tire of choice, fast and decent life (100ish runs).

learycd

iTrader: (1)

i flash back on raceday just to be fair, idk they inspected my car and didnt say anything about it, who knows im not 100 percent familar with the rules, you def got me beat there

but no ****, 2-3 seconds by putting on R compounds? thats what i was wondering, i figured it would be something big like that

dknv

Re: how much time you lose from crappy all seasons -- depends. If you are running in the rain with some standing water, maybe you won't lose any time at all; if you're running a 60 second course on dry concrete, maybe you'll lose 2 - 4 - 8 seconds.

uulose's "2-3 seconds faster" metric is based on a highly skilled driver, going from a pretty decent/nearly competition street tire, to his favorite r-comp. ymmv.

Mike, Jason -- you guys think there's no learning loss to go immediately to R-comps, yet the Evolution school 'wisdom' I've continuously heard says a student/person learning, will learn 'better' on street tires -- any idea why they stand by that? (No dog in this fight, just curious.)

FRANCES

As another old knee dragger like mwood I can attest to the fact that it was highly endouraged to have track capable tires for safety, especially on bikes when I drove with the MRA years ago. You may not have the ability to drive to the limit at the begining but there is plenty of room to grow and you feel the improvements you are making in driver skill.
2cents!

FRANCES

Mike, Jason -- you guys think there's no learning loss to go immediately to R-comps, yet the Evolution school 'wisdom' I've continuously heard says a student/person learning, will learn 'better' on street tires -- any idea why they stand by that? (No dog in this fight, just curious.)[/QUOTE]

May be that they want to develop skills on tires with more squirm and develop street driving skills as well.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I have never done an Evo school, so I cant comment on what they teach or say as far as tires. Some of what I do know is they really emphasize the basics like looking ahead, seating and hand positions. Evo is all about the driver, so I would imagine by taking the focus away from your tires and car it makes their job easier.

Short changing yourself with lesser equipment just takes a lot of the fun out of it. imho

mwood

I've never done an Evolution autocross school, so I really don't know why the "start on street tires" idea is attributed to them or whether they still suggest that idea. I guess things happen more slowly, at the margin, on street tires and they also give you more warning before things do happen...so, maybe that makes it somehow "easier" to acclimate to exceeding grip in any given direction? To me, that is meaningless, though, as sooner or later you'll want to calibrate your butt to the responses of a higher grip tire, if you want to compete in autocross.

I guess, though, if you are a total newbie with absolutely no car control experience, maybe the opportunity to experience the different dynamic events encountered on course in expanded time frames could be helpful. But, I personally believe that most anyone who decides to autocross has already played around with cars or bikes enough to already have basic car control skills mastered...like, getting sideways in the rain or in a snow covered parking lot, going a little quickly on that favorite isolated two lane, strafing an exit ramp, riding a motorcycle in the dirt etc. and really wouldn't benefit from spending time on street tires, just "because". They can learn the same, needed stuff (lines, minimizing distance/maximizing speed, effective braking, course walking etc.) to become better autocrossers regardless of tire choice, but will have a bunch more fun (and probably save money) on DOT R's and will also have a chance to accurately bench mark their performance (if they're in to that competitive part of the sport).

Edit: I put this topic up on the SCCA Forums board, we'll see what the Evo instructors come back with...

mp5

I took a phase 1 a couple years ago and they never mentioned anything about starting on street tires. I brought my car out with v700s on it and nothing was mentioned of it. What they did emphasize was not to worry about car setup, tire pressures, etc during the school. It was all about driver improvement, and messing with that stuff was just a distraction.

WpgDSMer

I took the evo school and a couple of local schools put on by my club and I've also heard the street tire theory. The idea behind it, I believe, is that the street tires will give you more indications of what you are doing. If you put in too large a steering input on street tires, you'll get a loud squal from the tires. On Rs, you will just under steer with little audible 'you just f#*!ed up big' indication. Also, when cornering at the limit of street tires, you'll get a nice consistent squeal from them, while on Rs you'll just corner fast.
Once you get some experience, I think practice on the tires you race on is better. I ran a test event on my streets (didn't have enough Rs left to practice and race on) and found myself going way too slow at the event the next day. I had gotten used to the grip levels of the street tires and found I wasn't pushing hard enough.
Again, it's all driver dependent, as I know some guys who can go from Rs to streets in different cars on the same day and still drive close to the limits. I can't do that. ymmv

mwood

Yeah, the "aural feedback" idea was thrown out by Andy on the thread I started on the SCCA board, too...and he's a long time Evo instructor.

But, I'm not buying it. I can't imagine needing sound to know what my tires are doing...that's what your hands, feet and butt are for, after all. Driving is tactile, not aural, imho.

04RX8man

yeah use up the stock ones pracicing then when your ready I reccommend the Falken 452's for a good priced good grip tire but if you can afford a little more the BFG G-force KDW's are awesome but you will pay prob about 30 or so more a tire but they are nice and look good also