RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I should probably adjust that to read "people are told to change those every 30k"

30k spark plug change is in every maintenance schedule I have ever read across many models and manufacturers. They can probably last 60k+, but if you tell a common piston owner that they need new plugs every 30k, they won't fall over in shock. It is accepted as part of the "tune up". Coils and wires are not.

Renesis_8

Yep!!

Thanks for the pic. I guess they found this interior to the set-up they have now?
________
BUY GLASS PIPES

Symbioticgenius

Sigh....
They fixed Flooding issues back in 06, Welcome to 2009 where flooding isn't an issue.
From what I've noticed around here, Flooding usually goes hand in hand with ignition on its way out, so I wouldn't hold that against the Rotary, just on a crappy coil design. If they are handing out new (already broken in 3k+ mile) test cars, that wouldn't be an issue at all.
Also I was referring to the new Rotary, which would hopefully have more torque, fuel economy, etc. Not to mention it would feel faster as the Miata is lighter by 1\4 ton.
Lastly, I've driven an NC, and to be honest, I couldn't really tell much of a difference in acceleration from the 8.
Miata felt like it was always fast, but never got faster, and the 8 feels like it starts off quick, gets fast, then goes faster.

People with sense get a Tune-Up when the car feels sluggish, winter time, or when its advertised (mechs always tune up specials), which includes gaping or replacing plugs. I know people who tune up every winter, I know mechanics who recommend it during emissions inspections, so yeah, a spark plug change is fairly common for any car.

Mazda definitely needs to, and I believe with the DI research, is focusing on the ignition system.

CyberPitz

That + your avatar =

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

By the way, we had a direct injection rotary project within the last few years and we also identified tough issues related to wankel peculiarities like the sweeping of the chamber and the dynamics created by having extra holes added.

Paul.

Shoafb

You mean that engine they have not got working right yet?

Wanna bet some 70 year old guy that knew nothing of rotaries couldn't flood it?

I don't know anyone that accepts changing plugs every winter or even 30k. Plugs last 70-100k nowadays... as you said.... welcome to 2006 or even 2010 if you prefer.

Old Rotor

My first four RX had to have spark plugs cleaned gaped or changed every 4K so I'm happy with 37K! Rotary engines are very hard on spark plugs but spark plugs have improved immensely. We all suffer for our Rotary engines. The people that bought for the outer beauty of the car lose more because they never enjoy it's high revving engine. Mazda made this car around the Rotary and I like it.

77mjd

Might want to include some ear plugs with that test group. Even though they could know nothing about a rotary engine or maybe never even heard of it, I would think the sound while driving would give it away that there was something different under the hood.

Symbioticgenius

Not working right, and not up to the high standards they set for themselves are two different things.
It works, but they want more. They want more torque, and want lower emissions.
Another stated issue is the RPM doesn't go as high as they would like. For all any of us know they could be shooting for 300 lb\ft, 40 MPG, and 12k RPM. At the end of the day, the 16X is probably better in every way than the current Renny, but Mazda wants it to be even better.

If the ignition system was up to snuff, I'd take that bet. He'll, I've tried to flood an 8 a few times and I couldn't, yet a friends father flooded his, we did washer fluid method on it, and shortly after, he flooded it himself. Wanna guess what the problem was?... Plugs were fouled, and we replaced the coils for shiggles.

Like I said, most mechanics recommend replacing that stuff during an inspection. Note, its not even covered in an inspection, but, they make money off it, so they do it anyway. Most people listen to their mechanic foolishly, thus they do it without even realizing it. Even more people get a Tune-Up as a part of their winterizing, he'll, even I used to until I learned.

@77Mjd: I hadn't thought of the sound, but its one thing to know the sound is different, but it takes a totally different person to know what that sound really is. Even if it was suspected as a rotary, just deny it.

Shoafb

SG, that would be a pretty hefty goal to wring out 1/3 + more tq and double the MPG at the same time... and have less emmisions to boot. Why don't we throw in
it makes you ice cream as well?

That new ignition system that keeps you from flooding, doesn't that just push all the unspent fuel into your cat while you deflood it? Seems that would just cause other issues down the road.

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

Ice cream wouldn't be too hard... just have to make sure you keep stirring the ice till it's done...

>_>
<_<

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

An "RX-5" Miata really sounds like a Good Idea, even if only with the Renny. As far as maintenance is concerned, I doubt if any 1.3l motor making ~230 hp will ever make the gold standard, which is something like my 99 Solara 4-cyl. It's gone now 148,000 miles with exactly one trip to the shop at 125k to do timing belt, valve adj, and replace the cat and a rusted out exhaust. Zero no-starts, trip interrupts, stalling, flooding or any other kind of misbehavior. I've replaced the battery once, the spark plugs once, one set of front pads/rotors, and 3 sets of tires. That's it. Runs a quiet, no-rattle, 30 mpg cruise on the interstate, has room for 4 adults and a huge trunk. Boring yes, but in a good sort of way, the way ~ 3/4 of the car-buying public wants it. With a ~135 hp, iron block, 2.4L engine I'm betting this thing runs the next 148k miles without much trouble. Except for the body parts, my 1978 RX-4 was similar, including making only 110 hp from its 13b. At 200-300 hp, the 13b is really pushing the limits and will never reach a gold-standard reliability. A 200 hp 3-rotor might, but there's no market for that.

Shoafb

Come to think of it, you do have the frothy oil dipstick thing in the winter. Kinda looks like a milkshake?

Symbioticgenius

Sigh, thats what we call an example..., doesn't mean thats what they are going for. especially on the MPG side of things.
Direct injection actually burns more fuel, and burns it better, so their would be no fuel in which to flood the engine with.

Side note, when I was test driving 8's, the guy who pulled the car out turned it on and off (I swore he was gonna flood it) , then I turned it on, no problems , stalled, on, stalled again. drove to the gas station, off, on, stalled, then drove it fine for about 20 mins.
it was an 04 with 93k. All that didn't flood it, and that was with a bad clutch. You really can't flood these things even if you try, unless the ignition is going bad, OR Compression is low already.

Shoafb

that wasn't an example then... it was a hypothetical excuse.

Sigh.....

see.. I can do that sigh thing too....

CyberPitz

You can't sigh at Red! He'll eat you!

rotarygod

I can get in my 140,000 mile 20 year old RX-7, start it up then shut it off and not worry about it flooding. Not even in winter. What rotary flooding problem? It's only an issue when something goes wrong. On the older cars that had much more powerful ignition systems, you flooded when your injectors started leaking. The nice thing about DI is that even less fuel would be needed to start and keep it running which means even less likeliness of flooding.

The issue isn't that the 16X isn't as good or better than the Renesis or even that it has any flaws or issues at all. It is probably more advanced than any other rotary to date. In case anyone has been blind to what is going on in the world, people are wanting higher gas mileage cars and tree huggers are pushing for higher and higher mileage figures and lower emissions with their ultimate goal of human extinction in order to "save the planet". Mileage standards are rising faster than ever before while emissions rules get more and more strict. What was good enough for a rotary 5 years ago no longer applies. It needs to get a whole lot better.

I still think the best option would be a smaller turbocharged rotary with the same dimension width to height ratio as a 16X. Ultimately if we still see a rotary, it will probably either be powered by dog turds, err, I mean Hydrogen, or it will be in a hybrid or as a generator range extender.

Rotr8

iTrader: (2)

I thought that with the patents that were found we were now designating the Engine 16B?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

i can envision a few problems getting the 16X to work.
1- rotory wash (less lubrication, fuel contamients in the oil etc)?
2- one fuel injector to handle all the fuel range for 3 rotor faces? That would be one hell of an injector
3- additional holes in the housing--that cant be good?
4- if they change the site of the injectors then may not be enough time for the combustion mixture to "settle" before the spark.?
5- the centrificual force of the longer stroke sure will increase the stressors on bearing etc.?
OD

Flashwing

One of the "cold" (snicker) nights we had here in Phoenix Ray and I were goofing around and tried to flood my own car on purpose. We must have started the car and shut it off about 6 times. No flooding. In fact I don't recall anyone with the BHR upgrade having flooded their car.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Flooding? what Flooding?

mine never did

I shut that **** off cold (is 25 degrees cold enough?) mad times, pull it out of garage, wash it, leave it there for a day or 2, turn it on, move it back into garage. hmm no flooding.

For the record, Piston engines can flood too. but due design + gravity, Its hard for fuel to stay too long above the piston.

arghx7

A better chrome plating would help maintain the oil film. Mazda has steadily improved the chrome plating since at least the series 3 Rx-7 13B.

If you look closely at the 16X prototype engine pics, the secondary injectors are in the side housings, in the old primary positions. Besides, the 12a Turbo and the original 6 port 13B-EGI had only two injectors
There may be a very minor loss of compression, but they will try to keep the hole small. The trailing plugs have a pretty small hole.

It's still staged injection, see above comment. That's the very reason why Mazda went to injector staging in the 86 model Rx-7's.

Well that's the problem with any longer stroke engine. And that's probably why we've been hearing rumors that the 16X is/was not revving high enough.

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

Multi-piece E-shaft for the win!
Just add a center bearing and I would think it would solve the problem.