Lensman

I for one would like to gauge the level of concern about the dyno results that have been posted. I feel worried (if only for the reputation of the car).

Quick_lude

I'm worried and hoping it's only an error in the ecu mapping. Or maybe the ECU is retardig the power until some set mile limit but that would mean that the car magazine mules did not have that limitation. Either way, this should be adressed and fixed if needed by Mazda before the speculation and rumours get out of hand.

zoom44

not worried ....yet. don't have my own car yet to feel how it is, but would like to hear from mazda on the matter. i am slightly worried about the image of the car as those folks who hope for a return of the rx7 would be devastated if this car does not hold up well.

wakeech

if you're actually concerned about power THAT much, modify.
it's nothing.

ditto

Quick_lude

What is the reason that you are NOT worried though? Two cars have dynoed so far and reported about 180whp which by all accounts is 20-30 hp too low. Now it might be just those two cars.. we definitely need more dyno and 1/4 mile numbers.. but I'd feel a lot better if they dyno'ed at 200-205whp.

RomanoM

My concern is not for the actual bhp numbers. Even if Mazda came out tomorrow and said they made a mistake and change the rating to 210bhp for the 6MT, I would still take delivery. Hell my 328i only had 194bhp, loved it.

My concern is why is there a problem or is there a problem at all.

Is there a design defect or manufacturing defect. How will my emission be effected? Will it effect reliability?

Even though the database is very small and limited to US 6MT cars, the data is so far consistent which makes the question legitimate.

IF there is a problem, why and what is the cause and how will it effect other aspects, especially in the long term?

revhappy

Maybe they sent us the European cars?? :p

Lensman

It's a question of getting what we paid for surely? If this IS a problem rather than something that will go away then Mazda are selling a car under false pretences (I'm not saying that they ARE, I'm just explaining my concern). I signed up for the RX-8 with 240bhp, I was sorely annoyed when that went down to 227bhp (in the UK) and if it drops further because of some unspecified problem/con/limitation/whatever then the car I ordered would no longer exist. I bought a specification not a wish-list.

Likely as not this will be resolved long before any UK cars appear so I'm whistling in the dark but Mazda REALLY need to start talking on this one!

Lensman

It would sure as heck explain where they went!!!

Quick_lude

Concern for power has nothing to do with this situation.

Mazda advertises certain hp and performance numbers for this car. If I had this car already, I'd be expecting what was advertised and what I paid for. Simple. Never mind the relatively crappy fuel economy.. but if I'm gettting 16-18mpg I expect 247hp/mid 14's that were advertised and sold to me. shrug

jdl

I expect some official word from Mazda about this situation. After all, this came out last time Mazda was faced with a little matter of missing 13 hp.

Seems that missing >20 hp is something to be worried about.

wakeech

concern for power has everything to do with it.
i'm with Romano, thinking that 200 hp (about double the current car i drive) is far more than sufficient to have a good time in the car.

now, i'm not saying that because they have thus far not come forward with any information or suggestions as to why the RENESIS is down on power that everything will rectify itself, heck no. if anything, complain, and make sure that they get their asses in gear.
because those who've bought the car bought whatever Mazda told them it is, and it isn't there ought to be compensation. what kind?? i don't know. maybe the car is fine and people are freaking out because of poor communication (gee, it'd the first time THAT's happened here :p), but maybe not. maybe they need to recall, or modify, or just give you money back... in the end, it will be rectified, which is why i say relax.

my comments were to those who're obsessively coveting every single last watt that comes out of those wheels, to whom i say "get a life" if their ego isn't properly augmented by the full 247 bhp: want Mazda to fix this, if it is indeed broke, for the right reasons.

patience is a virtue.

zoom44

exactly Quick!

Quick_lude

Wakeech, you're missing the point. If you go to MD's drivethrough and they give you a drink that's only half full, would you not go back and complain that you only got half your money's worth?
I don't care if the Renesis all of a sudden is making "only" 225 hp at the crank. What I do care about is being properly informed about it BEFORE I make my purchase.

About people relaxing here, did you see the hysteria before the car was delivered? :D

I'm sure Mazda will rectify this problem, if there is a problem, soon. But if I was a current owner I would be concerned and asking questions.

RomanoM

Like I said before my concern (if a problem exists) is what is the problem.

Is it just the wrong software or is it a more serious mechanical defect?

A bit off-topic:
Story about the power of the internet and what happens when an OEM doesn't take it seriously:

BMW has had a major problem with S54 engines, the engine in the current M3, with complete physical engine failure. It seems due to a poorly designed crank-shaft bearing.

First they ignored the problem, then claimed it was just a few cars and it was the drivers fault and the whole time owners and prospective owners where getting more and more concerned.

It started with a few owners on bimmer.org then more and more and more, it went from the internet to the mainstream media.

Finally BMW admitted a "possible" issue existed, but not the actual cause, and where forced to put a 10 year warranty on the S54 engine and agree to replace all the failed engines or buy back the cars.

M3 sales where hurt and many sold their M3's out of fear that once the news got out resale values would fall or that after 10 years and 1 day the engine would go booom.

Now with the RX-8 issue it's nothing as severe, but in the end it can hurt sales and rep of the RX-8.

These internet boards are not to be taken lightly, the mainstream automotive media and the OE should read these posts.


Mazda does not need a "BMW M3" on their hands. In other words owners and prospective owners wondering if there's a major defect with the engine.

Lensman

Kinda related: one thing that has always troubled me is that none of the Mazda sites (or indeed any other vehicle manufacturer site that I've visited) has an email enquiry address. Try an online shop or a broadcaster (etc) all easy to contact but not Mazda. If they had an email address then this issue could be raised directly rather than getting out of hand because of no feedback.

zoom44

rx8orders@mazdausa.com or 1-800-222-5500.

if you dial 1-800-555-2200 by mistake(as i did a couple of days ago) you get a very different sort of greeting on the other end:o

tribal azn2

im not worried at all. everyone just needs to calm down. dont get ur panties all wrapped up in a bunch.

there is no way mazda would make the same mistake they did with the miata, ABSOLUTLY NO WAY. these dynos prove absolutly NOTHING, 1 car had 600 miles and the other had 1000, it means nothing. when u put a couple thousand miles on then do a dyno, u will all see.

agisd

That was a different engine (low rpm torque/hp). A 210 HP rating for the Renesis would be a disaster imo. Cuz you will need to rev it up to 8500 rpm to get what? 210HP?

S2k gives 240 HP.

wakeech

that IS what i said, go back and make them fill your cup, and NO ICE, cheap b*tches...

wakeech

this is the kind of thing i was reffering to Quick.

pelucidor

I take it everyone has seen the 3rd dyno by compaddict at 2215 miles - same 178hp result, with following test conditions.

Run date 7-30-2003
2004 RX-8
6 Speed w/sport
DSC & Traction Control Off
35PSI tires (Cold)
95 degrees F
22% Humidity
2215 miles
Third gear pull
100 Ft. Elevation
Fourth and fifth gear runs were about one percent less (normal variances between runs).
I have over a hundred runs on this dyno with my other car and it seems about right with other Dynojets with comparable cars.

He also overlaid a dyno from a 255hp '94 RX-7 which got 208hp on the same dyno.

I know Mazda will fix this eventually, but they need to make a statement asap to calm things down before their reputation is besmirched forever.

I have done my part my calling a Mazda support person at 1-800-222-5500 (thanks Zoom44) and also my dealership to inform them of the low hp results - neither had heard anything about it and were keen to investigate immediately (both knew of rx8forum and will be checking here first btw). I suggest anyone else who is concerned should do the same asap.

zoom44

gotcha now keech! glad we are all on the same page here. now pardon me i need to go bitch an whine about the missing side mirror lights which since i don't have my car yet are more important to me :p

edit- no problem Pelucidor at least you called the right number

RomanoM

Fair enough--


But my point is, that the POSSIBLE power loss is the symptom.

I want to know what's the disease (again assuming an actual problem) and how easy is the cure?

I don't thing Mazda is quoting 247bhp for an engine that doesn't come close. I find it difficult to believe a nearly 30% drop from crank to wheel can not be explained by "engine tightness," I could buy 20%. Is that possible with a rotary???

And even with only 3 dyno runs the consistency of the runs doesn't prove anything, but it's enough to legitimately ask questions if not necessarily to come to any conclusion.


This leads me to believe that there may be an engineering concern, not just bad marketing. So, even if FOR ME the power is fine, I don't want an engine with defects no matter what the power rating.

If there is a mileage switch over in the ECU that's a perfectly legitimate item, but it should be well known to at least the dealer service managers and techs.

At best this is just poor communication, but at worst it can be an engine with a design defect. People have a right to ask at this point.

By the way I don't think you should go out and cancel your orders, I'm not, just ask the question.

zoom44

i thought i may have asked earlier but was any mention of this made in the tech highlights cd? i really need to burn that and watch it.