StarApex - Rotary Engine
11-22-2006, 12:57 AM
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StarApex - Rotary Engine
Just came across this website regarding the Rotary engine. Any comments?
http://www.starapex.com/
http://www.starapex.com/
11-22-2006, 07:24 AM
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The planetary gear idea is interesting, but controlling the wobble & chatter of those little gears at anything above idle revs is not accounted for. I expect this design will destroy itself on the first run up.
The dynamic chamber design from Mazda is a solid proven concept, but the illustration is incomplete. Dynamic charging works very well. Engineers have long understood the benefits of intake and exhaust standing wave tune.
Mazda just figured out how to use the bounce from one intake to reflect a stronger wave to the other intake port.
The dynamic chamber design from Mazda is a solid proven concept, but the illustration is incomplete. Dynamic charging works very well. Engineers have long understood the benefits of intake and exhaust standing wave tune.
Mazda just figured out how to use the bounce from one intake to reflect a stronger wave to the other intake port.
11-22-2006, 07:45 AM
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That's classic "Crazy Guy" web design. He must have taken classes from the TimeCube.com guy, which teaches you that instead of actually typing in text you just make a crappy scan of a photocopy and insert a picture into your web page. Brilliant.
11-22-2006, 09:10 AM
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Going back to what the Mazda CEO mentioned to the LA Times-
Do you think Mazda actually takes into account certain ideas like these (crazy as it may seem), and possibly even more far-out reaches, like the Qusiturbine engine, and tries to incorporated the ideas into their new "next generation" rotary engine?
Just wondering. I know they have money and a budget this time around... but I think it would be interesting if they were "going back to the drawing board" on the wankle engine... rather than just try to introduce smaller aspects to the current technology of rotary engines (like adding Direct Injection).
michael
Do you think Mazda actually takes into account certain ideas like these (crazy as it may seem), and possibly even more far-out reaches, like the Qusiturbine engine, and tries to incorporated the ideas into their new "next generation" rotary engine?
Just wondering. I know they have money and a budget this time around... but I think it would be interesting if they were "going back to the drawing board" on the wankle engine... rather than just try to introduce smaller aspects to the current technology of rotary engines (like adding Direct Injection).
michael
11-22-2006, 10:28 AM
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Taken directly from their website:
"Above is a sketch published by Mazda to promote its dynamic supercharging system.
It is obvious that they do not understand the principles that take place in the Wankel engine."
No comments. Wait! one comment
I have read enough from that people.
jird20
"Above is a sketch published by Mazda to promote its dynamic supercharging system.
It is obvious that they do not understand the principles that take place in the Wankel engine."
No comments. Wait! one comment
I have read enough from that people.
jird20
11-22-2006, 11:46 AM
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Not a single one of those pictures is original work from them. I have the books that have all of those illustrations and the gold rotor picture is an early '70's Mazda 10A rotary. There are 3 dead giveaways. The first is the 6 mm apex seal design that they did away with after 1973. The second is the fact that the rotor housings is so narrow. The third is that the entire rotor is just cheap gold paint. That rotor appears to be so old that the seals are all permanently stuck in place and could not be removed. I've seen this on old 12A engines. What's the easiest thing to do? Paint over all of it! It does look like they installed their own planetary gear set into the rotor but that's easy. The old one isn't hard to remove. It doesn't mean it works though. I personally don't see the point in overcomplicating something that works perfectly fine and reliably now. I guarantee I could spend a few minutes at Tractor Supply Co. and find something that I could install that would make for a neat picture.
Let's have some fun with their quotes:
Unfortunately we do not have the financial capability of Mazda or Power Sport Aviation to produce rotary engines. But we do have the ability to make working prototypes that prove the mechanical functions.
Um yeah. I have the ability to make working prototypes that prove mechanical function too. It's called rebuilding one and installing it in your own car. It works!
Observation of worn rotary engine housings will make everyone aware that the housing gets damaged starting precisely at the location of the trailing apex seal when the leading apex seal bridges the 1/2" leading spark plug hole. The simple process of inserting 24 guage stainless steel wipers into the rotor three quarters of an inch back from the apex seals will stop the combustion pressures from hammering into the compression stroke.
That is one place that gets damaged among others. I'm not too sure what they are hoping to accomplish at least in terms of wear, by adding another sliding seal. Especially after quoting a wear point. This isn't going to help and would actually make it worse. Stainless steel is a terrible material to use. It's expansion properties are very high compared to everything else in the engine. There would be some serious clearance issues depending on the temps inside the engine and this would probably lead to more friction and wear.
I know what they are trying to accomplish by adding this second seal. As the apex seal crosses over the leading spark plug hole, some gasses can get around the apex seal through this hole and get back into the next chamber. Theoretically. These guys haven't really done any homework though when it comes to chamber pressure at various rotor locations. The pressures in each chamber at the point where the apex seal crosses the leading plug hole are nearly equal. There really isn't any gas flow taking place through the leading plug hole. If there is, it's not enough to matter. The trailing plug location is another story altogether though and this is why it is so much smaller than the leading. The chamber pressure is much greater in the leading chamber than in the trailing chamber at this point and gasses would move through the hole and into the following chamber. Fortunately the apex seal covers up this small trailing plug hole and this doesn't happen. These guys are trying to fix a problem that really doesn't happen due to chamber pressures at that location. All they are doing is adding complexity and wear.
We note in the animation of the engine at the Power Sport Aviation site that the exhaust port is closer to the minor axis than what is in the older Mazda rotary engines. This gives them a one third longer power stroke. The Mazda RX-8 also has the exhaust port closer to the minor axis. This modification substantially increases the combustion pressure that hammers through the spark plug hole if the aforesaid stainless steel wiper or other sealing mechanism is not used.
Um, yeah...
In the Power Sport engine with peripheral exhaust ports there are two other substantial problems. Prior to the apex seal arriving to the exhaust port the intake action sucks equally through the fuel supply port and the exhaust port. When the apex seal is bridging the port the exhaust pressure hammers through into the intake area of the engine. This can be remidied by the simple process of inserting a stainless steel wiper approx 1.5" ahead of the apex seals. The wiper crosses crosses the port and stops the exhaust from escaping into the intake area.
This "problem" is called port overlap. The easiest remedy is to use all side ports. Oh wait, someone alrady figured that out! Once again, let's add another seal! More friction and a shrinking combustion chamber. What sounds good about this again?
The most idiotic concept in the Wankel engine is the stationary gear that stops the combustion pressure from rotating the rotor. The rotation comes from combustion pressure pressing against the e-shaft lobe and the e-shaft forces the rotor to mesh with the stationary gear as the lobe turns. The rotor has two thirds of its internal gear teeth locked on the stationary gear for every e-shaft revolution.
I'm not going to quote the next paragraph but needless to say their logic is very flawed.
Simple principles of leverage say that a .591" throw in the Mazda 12A rotary engine produces 100 HP.
The gear ratio is three to one therefore three times .591" is 1.77 inches so combustion pressure against the a 3.54" diameter rotor should produce 200 HP. The rotor in a Mazda rotary engine has over an eight inch diameter so combustion pressures turning it should produce approximately 500 HP.
I'm speechless on this one. I'll leave it at that.
We possibly could be in error by treating HP as weight but the potential is quite promising.
It's good to know they realize they are probably wrong!
Above is a sketch published by Mazda to promote its dynamic supercharging system.
It is obvious that they do not understand the principles that take place in the Wankel engine.
They show a flow away from the intake port during the intake stroke.
They show a flow into the intake port when the rotor is in its first third of the compression stroke.
These guys can't be serious? Mazda understand perfectly what is going on inside the engine. Their diagram is not showing flow. It's showing acoustic energy waves as they bounce back and forth inside the intake. These guys are idiots. It sounds like a coupld of school kids that have ideas on how to improve an engine they have zero understanding of. What a joke!
Let's have some fun with their quotes:
Unfortunately we do not have the financial capability of Mazda or Power Sport Aviation to produce rotary engines. But we do have the ability to make working prototypes that prove the mechanical functions.
Um yeah. I have the ability to make working prototypes that prove mechanical function too. It's called rebuilding one and installing it in your own car. It works!
Observation of worn rotary engine housings will make everyone aware that the housing gets damaged starting precisely at the location of the trailing apex seal when the leading apex seal bridges the 1/2" leading spark plug hole. The simple process of inserting 24 guage stainless steel wipers into the rotor three quarters of an inch back from the apex seals will stop the combustion pressures from hammering into the compression stroke.
That is one place that gets damaged among others. I'm not too sure what they are hoping to accomplish at least in terms of wear, by adding another sliding seal. Especially after quoting a wear point. This isn't going to help and would actually make it worse. Stainless steel is a terrible material to use. It's expansion properties are very high compared to everything else in the engine. There would be some serious clearance issues depending on the temps inside the engine and this would probably lead to more friction and wear.
I know what they are trying to accomplish by adding this second seal. As the apex seal crosses over the leading spark plug hole, some gasses can get around the apex seal through this hole and get back into the next chamber. Theoretically. These guys haven't really done any homework though when it comes to chamber pressure at various rotor locations. The pressures in each chamber at the point where the apex seal crosses the leading plug hole are nearly equal. There really isn't any gas flow taking place through the leading plug hole. If there is, it's not enough to matter. The trailing plug location is another story altogether though and this is why it is so much smaller than the leading. The chamber pressure is much greater in the leading chamber than in the trailing chamber at this point and gasses would move through the hole and into the following chamber. Fortunately the apex seal covers up this small trailing plug hole and this doesn't happen. These guys are trying to fix a problem that really doesn't happen due to chamber pressures at that location. All they are doing is adding complexity and wear.
We note in the animation of the engine at the Power Sport Aviation site that the exhaust port is closer to the minor axis than what is in the older Mazda rotary engines. This gives them a one third longer power stroke. The Mazda RX-8 also has the exhaust port closer to the minor axis. This modification substantially increases the combustion pressure that hammers through the spark plug hole if the aforesaid stainless steel wiper or other sealing mechanism is not used.
Um, yeah...
In the Power Sport engine with peripheral exhaust ports there are two other substantial problems. Prior to the apex seal arriving to the exhaust port the intake action sucks equally through the fuel supply port and the exhaust port. When the apex seal is bridging the port the exhaust pressure hammers through into the intake area of the engine. This can be remidied by the simple process of inserting a stainless steel wiper approx 1.5" ahead of the apex seals. The wiper crosses crosses the port and stops the exhaust from escaping into the intake area.
This "problem" is called port overlap. The easiest remedy is to use all side ports. Oh wait, someone alrady figured that out! Once again, let's add another seal! More friction and a shrinking combustion chamber. What sounds good about this again?
The most idiotic concept in the Wankel engine is the stationary gear that stops the combustion pressure from rotating the rotor. The rotation comes from combustion pressure pressing against the e-shaft lobe and the e-shaft forces the rotor to mesh with the stationary gear as the lobe turns. The rotor has two thirds of its internal gear teeth locked on the stationary gear for every e-shaft revolution.
I'm not going to quote the next paragraph but needless to say their logic is very flawed.
Simple principles of leverage say that a .591" throw in the Mazda 12A rotary engine produces 100 HP.
The gear ratio is three to one therefore three times .591" is 1.77 inches so combustion pressure against the a 3.54" diameter rotor should produce 200 HP. The rotor in a Mazda rotary engine has over an eight inch diameter so combustion pressures turning it should produce approximately 500 HP.
I'm speechless on this one. I'll leave it at that.
We possibly could be in error by treating HP as weight but the potential is quite promising.
It's good to know they realize they are probably wrong!
Above is a sketch published by Mazda to promote its dynamic supercharging system.
It is obvious that they do not understand the principles that take place in the Wankel engine.
They show a flow away from the intake port during the intake stroke.
They show a flow into the intake port when the rotor is in its first third of the compression stroke.
These guys can't be serious? Mazda understand perfectly what is going on inside the engine. Their diagram is not showing flow. It's showing acoustic energy waves as they bounce back and forth inside the intake. These guys are idiots. It sounds like a coupld of school kids that have ideas on how to improve an engine they have zero understanding of. What a joke!
11-22-2006, 09:04 PM
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whoever made that webpage is a retard and doesnt understand jack about rotary engines.
Though the planetart gear thing is kinda cool,.. though pointless (it will not give you 500 hp through magical retard webpage mathmatics)
Though the planetart gear thing is kinda cool,.. though pointless (it will not give you 500 hp through magical retard webpage mathmatics)
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