Rain Conditions and Oversteer/Breakaway
08-21-2015, 12:35 PM
#1
Rain Conditions and Oversteer/Breakaway
Car:
2008 RX8 Sport Automatic
16" Wheels
Charger GT 225/55R/16 Tires
I just had an extremely scary situation entering the highway where my 8 lost complete control with minimal acceleration entering the highway. I like to consider myself a fairly experienced RX8 driver. I've owned the car for 5 years. I've always known it to be a terrible performer in the rain, prone to hydroplaning and losing grip (wheel spin) while accelerating from a stop, but this was unlike anything I had ever witnessed. I always try to baby it out of stops and while merging in non-dry conditions, almost always driving 20 MPH under the speed limit on highways.
In merging onto the highway at around 3000 RPM and maybe 40MPH I completely lost control of the back end end ended up going across one lane to the left and right before regaining control. If there was another car remotely around me, I'd probably be dead.
I've read that some users don't have any problems in the rain, but I've always found the car to be prone to a loss of control. I don't expect a ton of information, given that I have the only model of the car without dynamic stability control and 16" tires, but any advice on how to prevent breakway like this would be greatly appreciated.
I think changing the tires out for DWS could be a next step, but before I drop a grand, I wanted to see if any folks shared my experiences.
2008 RX8 Sport Automatic
16" Wheels
Charger GT 225/55R/16 Tires
I just had an extremely scary situation entering the highway where my 8 lost complete control with minimal acceleration entering the highway. I like to consider myself a fairly experienced RX8 driver. I've owned the car for 5 years. I've always known it to be a terrible performer in the rain, prone to hydroplaning and losing grip (wheel spin) while accelerating from a stop, but this was unlike anything I had ever witnessed. I always try to baby it out of stops and while merging in non-dry conditions, almost always driving 20 MPH under the speed limit on highways.
In merging onto the highway at around 3000 RPM and maybe 40MPH I completely lost control of the back end end ended up going across one lane to the left and right before regaining control. If there was another car remotely around me, I'd probably be dead.
I've read that some users don't have any problems in the rain, but I've always found the car to be prone to a loss of control. I don't expect a ton of information, given that I have the only model of the car without dynamic stability control and 16" tires, but any advice on how to prevent breakway like this would be greatly appreciated.
I think changing the tires out for DWS could be a next step, but before I drop a grand, I wanted to see if any folks shared my experiences.
Last edited by bullbuchanan; 08-21-2015 at 12:41 PM.
08-21-2015, 12:53 PM
#2
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You have something seriously wrong.
The RX-8 is NOT "prone to a loss of control" at all, in any way. It is heralded by experts and amatures alike to be one of the EASIEST to control cars ever produced.
I have driven in every single weather condition possible short of ones that would be actively destroying the car, like tornadoes and hurricanes. Ice, snow pack, snow fluff, snow so deep I'm literally plowing it, light rain, oil slicked rain, deep pouring rain, sand, dust, dirt, mud....
There have only been four times in which I found my RX-8 hard to control:
- A severe alignment problem from a road "ripple" hit left toe out on the right front and toe in on the left rear
- Tires worn well past safety bars
- Rear shock failure
- Improperly re-installed steering column
The fact that you see these problems with a base automatic is screaming at me that you have a major mechanical problem somewhere.
Consistently on the forums, the only time I've seen someone complain of sudden loss of rear traction in the rain, it has been because of excessive and undetected rear tire wear. So first check those rear tires. Don't just check the outside. Get down behind the car and look at the full face of them, or remove them and inspect directly.
If the tires are fine, get your alignment checked by a GOOD shop.
If the alignment is fine, inspect shocks, springs, perches, and swaybars. Inspect the subframes (some very bad stuff is possible).
Nothing of what you describe is normal or acceptable.
The RX-8 is NOT "prone to a loss of control" at all, in any way. It is heralded by experts and amatures alike to be one of the EASIEST to control cars ever produced.
I have driven in every single weather condition possible short of ones that would be actively destroying the car, like tornadoes and hurricanes. Ice, snow pack, snow fluff, snow so deep I'm literally plowing it, light rain, oil slicked rain, deep pouring rain, sand, dust, dirt, mud....
There have only been four times in which I found my RX-8 hard to control:
- A severe alignment problem from a road "ripple" hit left toe out on the right front and toe in on the left rear
- Tires worn well past safety bars
- Rear shock failure
- Improperly re-installed steering column
The fact that you see these problems with a base automatic is screaming at me that you have a major mechanical problem somewhere.
Consistently on the forums, the only time I've seen someone complain of sudden loss of rear traction in the rain, it has been because of excessive and undetected rear tire wear. So first check those rear tires. Don't just check the outside. Get down behind the car and look at the full face of them, or remove them and inspect directly.
If the tires are fine, get your alignment checked by a GOOD shop.
If the alignment is fine, inspect shocks, springs, perches, and swaybars. Inspect the subframes (some very bad stuff is possible).
Nothing of what you describe is normal or acceptable.
08-21-2015, 01:40 PM
#3
You have something seriously wrong.
The RX-8 is NOT "prone to a loss of control" at all, in any way. It is heralded by experts and amatures alike to be one of the EASIEST to control cars ever produced.
I have driven in every single weather condition possible short of ones that would be actively destroying the car, like tornadoes and hurricanes. Ice, snow pack, snow fluff, snow so deep I'm literally plowing it, light rain, oil slicked rain, deep pouring rain, sand, dust, dirt, mud....
There have only been four times in which I found my RX-8 hard to control:
- A severe alignment problem from a road "ripple" hit left toe out on the right front and toe in on the left rear
- Tires worn well past safety bars
- Rear shock failure
- Improperly re-installed steering column
The fact that you see these problems with a base automatic is screaming at me that you have a major mechanical problem somewhere.
Consistently on the forums, the only time I've seen someone complain of sudden loss of rear traction in the rain, it has been because of excessive and undetected rear tire wear. So first check those rear tires. Don't just check the outside. Get down behind the car and look at the full face of them, or remove them and inspect directly.
If the tires are fine, get your alignment checked by a GOOD shop.
If the alignment is fine, inspect shocks, springs, perches, and swaybars. Inspect the subframes (some very bad stuff is possible).
Nothing of what you describe is normal or acceptable.
The RX-8 is NOT "prone to a loss of control" at all, in any way. It is heralded by experts and amatures alike to be one of the EASIEST to control cars ever produced.
I have driven in every single weather condition possible short of ones that would be actively destroying the car, like tornadoes and hurricanes. Ice, snow pack, snow fluff, snow so deep I'm literally plowing it, light rain, oil slicked rain, deep pouring rain, sand, dust, dirt, mud....
There have only been four times in which I found my RX-8 hard to control:
- A severe alignment problem from a road "ripple" hit left toe out on the right front and toe in on the left rear
- Tires worn well past safety bars
- Rear shock failure
- Improperly re-installed steering column
The fact that you see these problems with a base automatic is screaming at me that you have a major mechanical problem somewhere.
Consistently on the forums, the only time I've seen someone complain of sudden loss of rear traction in the rain, it has been because of excessive and undetected rear tire wear. So first check those rear tires. Don't just check the outside. Get down behind the car and look at the full face of them, or remove them and inspect directly.
If the tires are fine, get your alignment checked by a GOOD shop.
If the alignment is fine, inspect shocks, springs, perches, and swaybars. Inspect the subframes (some very bad stuff is possible).
Nothing of what you describe is normal or acceptable.
I had my car at the dealership last september when I got a new engine/transmission/catalytic converter, so I'd like to think that if anything were severely wrong (like the subframe example) that would have been pointed out to me then.
Could there be any correlation that the sport does not have DCS/TCS and basically everyone on here/every reviewer is going to be in a better package?
08-21-2015, 01:49 PM
#4
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It could entirely be. I don't have any experience with that tire.
I see this kind of comment all the time, and it's always scary. NEVER NEVER expect that "if somethings is wrong they would have told me". Not only do they have to actually spot it, but there is a huge range of things that they never even bother looking at.
As an example, I snapped my rear diff arm on my MSM on a pothole over a year ago. 2 alignments, a race tech inspection, a shop inspection... and no one spotted it till I finally went looking for "what that odd behavior was" with a flashlight and careful inspection.
If it isn't explicitly listed on a receipt, it didn't happen. If it IS listed on the receipt, it only MIGHT have happened. The only one you can trust is yourself in this.
Nope. Not at all. TCS/DSC comes off for track days, quite a lot of weather conditions where you need more control over the system, etc... DSC will NOT kick in until you have enough slippage that you will be correcting for anyway. If DSC was really the line here, then people would be seeing it activating all the time in similar conditions, but we don't. DSC never interferes unless I do something really stupid. It stays quiet.
As an example, I snapped my rear diff arm on my MSM on a pothole over a year ago. 2 alignments, a race tech inspection, a shop inspection... and no one spotted it till I finally went looking for "what that odd behavior was" with a flashlight and careful inspection.
If it isn't explicitly listed on a receipt, it didn't happen. If it IS listed on the receipt, it only MIGHT have happened. The only one you can trust is yourself in this.
Nope. Not at all. TCS/DSC comes off for track days, quite a lot of weather conditions where you need more control over the system, etc... DSC will NOT kick in until you have enough slippage that you will be correcting for anyway. If DSC was really the line here, then people would be seeing it activating all the time in similar conditions, but we don't. DSC never interferes unless I do something really stupid. It stays quiet.
08-21-2015, 02:03 PM
#5
I'm really grateful you took the time to break this down for me. I'm not a gearhead by nature, but I have picked up a certain amount of bare minimum experience having to own a car like this. It's very helpful and incredibly appreciated.
I'll inspect it when I get home and if it doesn't seem anything is cracked or out of the ordinary I'll get new tires and an alignment tomorrow.
I'll inspect it when I get home and if it doesn't seem anything is cracked or out of the ordinary I'll get new tires and an alignment tomorrow.
08-21-2015, 03:14 PM
#6
oil/coolant on the road, if its been dry for a long time, oil builds up, and then when it rains, pavement gets very slippery, until the oil has washed away, and then its fine. coolant is slippery all the time.
its also possible you hit a puddle, and it hydroplaned a little
or maybe your tires just suck in the rain. i had a 1st gen with crappy tires on it, and when the off ramp on the way to work was wet, it would just slide. i thought that was the fun part, so i'd usually hit the gas and let it slide
you might also consider some kind of safe or race driving course, learning the basics of car control is a good safety feature, and its fun, and its rewarding
08-22-2015, 12:32 AM
#7
Rockie Mountain Newbie
Car:
2008 RX8 Sport Automatic
16" Wheels
Charger GT 225/55R/16 Tires
I just had an extremely scary situation entering the highway where my 8 lost complete control with minimal acceleration entering the highway. I like to consider myself a fairly experienced RX8 driver. I've owned the car for 5 years. I've always known it to be a terrible performer in the rain, prone to hydroplaning and losing grip (wheel spin) while accelerating from a stop, but this was unlike anything I had ever witnessed. I always try to baby it out of stops and while merging in non-dry conditions, almost always driving 20 MPH under the speed limit on highways.
In merging onto the highway at around 3000 RPM and maybe 40MPH I completely lost control of the back end end ended up going across one lane to the left and right before regaining control. If there was another car remotely around me, I'd probably be dead.
I've read that some users don't have any problems in the rain, but I've always found the car to be prone to a loss of control. I don't expect a ton of information, given that I have the only model of the car without dynamic stability control and 16" tires, but any advice on how to prevent breakway like this would be greatly appreciated.
I think changing the tires out for DWS could be a next step, but before I drop a grand, I wanted to see if any folks shared my experiences.
2008 RX8 Sport Automatic
16" Wheels
Charger GT 225/55R/16 Tires
I just had an extremely scary situation entering the highway where my 8 lost complete control with minimal acceleration entering the highway. I like to consider myself a fairly experienced RX8 driver. I've owned the car for 5 years. I've always known it to be a terrible performer in the rain, prone to hydroplaning and losing grip (wheel spin) while accelerating from a stop, but this was unlike anything I had ever witnessed. I always try to baby it out of stops and while merging in non-dry conditions, almost always driving 20 MPH under the speed limit on highways.
In merging onto the highway at around 3000 RPM and maybe 40MPH I completely lost control of the back end end ended up going across one lane to the left and right before regaining control. If there was another car remotely around me, I'd probably be dead.
I've read that some users don't have any problems in the rain, but I've always found the car to be prone to a loss of control. I don't expect a ton of information, given that I have the only model of the car without dynamic stability control and 16" tires, but any advice on how to prevent breakway like this would be greatly appreciated.
I think changing the tires out for DWS could be a next step, but before I drop a grand, I wanted to see if any folks shared my experiences.
Your car has practically no torque at 3k rpms, an automatic transmission, and an open differential, so there's no reason other than the tires, or something horribly damaged under the car, why you should have any traction issues when you are driving in the rain.
I had a 2011 Sport, with manual, no Traction Control, or Stability Control, and the stock tires, and that car was fantastic to drive in the rain.
It was also damn good with the Yokohama i*cept Evo winter tires on it in the snow. No fishtailing unless I commanded the car to give it to me.
Spend money on tires.
Spend money on winter tires.
The car will feel incredibly different with good tires under it.
BC.
08-22-2015, 07:51 AM
#8
Water Foul
All good advice so far. I don't know that tire from experience, but I had an event similar to yours when I stupidly turned my traction control off out of habit. I traced it back to the Yokohama YK580s I was running as street tires and the fact that I had stupidly turned off traction control. I only bought those tires, because I ran over a box of nails that bounced off the flat bed truck in front of me and had 3 flat. I was able to drive on run-flats to a nearby Discount Tire, and those tires were all they had in stock.
Sounds like you had a good scare. My experience cost me ~$3,000 since I didn't want to file it with insurance. Of course, part of that was a new set of tires.
Sounds like you had a good scare. My experience cost me ~$3,000 since I didn't want to file it with insurance. Of course, part of that was a new set of tires.
08-22-2015, 05:16 PM
#11
All great advice here, all. I've decided to go with the Continental DWS 06 tires since everyone seemed to love the DWS series and from what I've seen the DWS 06 are more of the same, but improved. I'll also be getting an alignment at the same time.
As I've mentioned before, tire spinning out of the gate has always been an issue with the car in moist conditions, so I just attributed it to the RWD + light weight of the car. Apparently that was a mistake.
As far as taking it to a track goes, not sure how I feel about that. I was able to bring the car back in line fairly easily once grip was re-established and I've gotten fairly comfortable with similar loss of control situations in the last few years - this one just put me over the edge. I'd hate to take it out to the track and break something, since I'll be into this car over $40k by the time all is said and done (I know...).
As I've mentioned before, tire spinning out of the gate has always been an issue with the car in moist conditions, so I just attributed it to the RWD + light weight of the car. Apparently that was a mistake.
As far as taking it to a track goes, not sure how I feel about that. I was able to bring the car back in line fairly easily once grip was re-established and I've gotten fairly comfortable with similar loss of control situations in the last few years - this one just put me over the edge. I'd hate to take it out to the track and break something, since I'll be into this car over $40k by the time all is said and done (I know...).
08-23-2015, 01:30 AM
#12
Registered
It could entirely be. I don't have any experience with that tire.
I see this kind of comment all the time, and it's always scary. NEVER NEVER expect that "if somethings is wrong they would have told me". Not only do they have to actually spot it, but there is a huge range of things that they never even bother looking at.
As an example, I snapped my rear diff arm on my MSM on a pothole over a year ago. 2 alignments, a race tech inspection, a shop inspection... and no one spotted it till I finally went looking for "what that odd behavior was" with a flashlight and careful inspection.
If it isn't explicitly listed on a receipt, it didn't happen. If it IS listed on the receipt, it only MIGHT have happened. The only one you can trust is yourself in this.
Nope. Not at all. TCS/DSC comes off for track days, quite a lot of weather conditions where you need more control over the system, etc... DSC will NOT kick in until you have enough slippage that you will be correcting for anyway. If DSC was really the line here, then people would be seeing it activating all the time in similar conditions, but we don't. DSC never interferes unless I do something really stupid. It stays quiet.
I see this kind of comment all the time, and it's always scary. NEVER NEVER expect that "if somethings is wrong they would have told me". Not only do they have to actually spot it, but there is a huge range of things that they never even bother looking at.
As an example, I snapped my rear diff arm on my MSM on a pothole over a year ago. 2 alignments, a race tech inspection, a shop inspection... and no one spotted it till I finally went looking for "what that odd behavior was" with a flashlight and careful inspection.
If it isn't explicitly listed on a receipt, it didn't happen. If it IS listed on the receipt, it only MIGHT have happened. The only one you can trust is yourself in this.
Nope. Not at all. TCS/DSC comes off for track days, quite a lot of weather conditions where you need more control over the system, etc... DSC will NOT kick in until you have enough slippage that you will be correcting for anyway. If DSC was really the line here, then people would be seeing it activating all the time in similar conditions, but we don't. DSC never interferes unless I do something really stupid. It stays quiet.
Sometimes when I launch too hard in the rain the back wheels hop like crazy. I am afraid of breaking something.
03-17-2016, 06:19 PM
#13
Not very likely. It would take a sharp sudden impact like a curb or a large pothole to do this, and you would probably bend a control arm or two before the diff case/mounts cracked.
03-17-2016, 07:28 PM
#14
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I said "pothole", but what I think it actually was was the pitted surfaces to either side of train tracks that I had to cross on my way to work. Even as slow as possible, there were often some hugely hard hits from the drops off the rails into potholes, etc... I don't think even normal potholes could do that without damaging something else first.
03-17-2016, 08:52 PM
#15
I would agree that a cheaper tire can be tricky in wet weather. I'd also like to add that Jeremy clarkson of "top gear" said the 8 is a bit twitchy in the rain after his review. I would agree ( not because I like him) but because I've owned other rear wheel drive cars and in comparison the 8's *** can and will come around on you quite easily in those conditions if your too gas happy.
Especially with cheap rubber. It's also because the weight ratio is 51/49 front/rear always remember that. The 16" tire size may amplify that. I will removing weight from the front and adding it to the rear on my 8. Ive also staggered the sizes 235/18 in the front and 265/18 in the rear.
That alone made a big difference in cornering predictability. Good luck! And get some decent rubber on that baby!
Especially with cheap rubber. It's also because the weight ratio is 51/49 front/rear always remember that. The 16" tire size may amplify that. I will removing weight from the front and adding it to the rear on my 8. Ive also staggered the sizes 235/18 in the front and 265/18 in the rear.
That alone made a big difference in cornering predictability. Good luck! And get some decent rubber on that baby!
Last edited by wankinit; 03-17-2016 at 09:01 PM.
03-19-2016, 09:23 PM
#16
Before I had my RX-8, I had an E36 M3. With stock springs and Bilstein dampers, that car still understeered even with a 245 square tire setup. The RX-8 is much more neutral, so there's more oversteer. But it's also grippier and more agile, even on narrower tires. Much better behaved at the limit, too. And that's in all conditions, not just dry. So, even though it oversteers more at the limit, that doesn't matter because the limit is higher and the car makes oversteer easier to work with.
I run the Michelin Pilot Super Sport in 225/40/19, and the Michelin Primacy Alpin PA3 in 205/55/17. Zero issues in the wet with either tire. The car takes serious provocation to legitimately break loose. Twitchiness.... yeah maybe, if the tire is really worn and the road is as cold and slick as it ever gets, there might be a slight wiggle that I don't even have to correct. That's not even in the same universe as losing control while merging onto a highway.
About tires more generally: I don't think anything less than top-of-the-line makes sense. Anything else will have big disadvantages, and you have to go FAR down the food chain to save any real money in the long run. That's true for any car really, but it's especially true of this one. If you're willing to sacrifice your car's dynamics to save a few hundred bucks every few years, you're shooting yourself in the foot by driving an RX-8. There are so many other cars that will save you more money with fewer sacrifices than cheap tires would offer.
So, yeah. Glad to hear you're going for some new tires. Even if there are other issues with your car, it's begging for some decent shoes.
I run the Michelin Pilot Super Sport in 225/40/19, and the Michelin Primacy Alpin PA3 in 205/55/17. Zero issues in the wet with either tire. The car takes serious provocation to legitimately break loose. Twitchiness.... yeah maybe, if the tire is really worn and the road is as cold and slick as it ever gets, there might be a slight wiggle that I don't even have to correct. That's not even in the same universe as losing control while merging onto a highway.
About tires more generally: I don't think anything less than top-of-the-line makes sense. Anything else will have big disadvantages, and you have to go FAR down the food chain to save any real money in the long run. That's true for any car really, but it's especially true of this one. If you're willing to sacrifice your car's dynamics to save a few hundred bucks every few years, you're shooting yourself in the foot by driving an RX-8. There are so many other cars that will save you more money with fewer sacrifices than cheap tires would offer.
So, yeah. Glad to hear you're going for some new tires. Even if there are other issues with your car, it's begging for some decent shoes.
Last edited by IamFodi; 03-20-2016 at 07:40 AM.
03-19-2016, 09:52 PM
#17
Something else about twitchiness; would love to get some more informed feedback on this.
I suspect that a lot of what people read as "twitchiness" is actually just a benign difference in how the car acts when it's just past the limit. I remember my old M3 would understeer, then understeer more, and then have this sudden transition to oversteer. It was like the rear axle didn't know how to be anywhere between 0º and 5º of slip; it was either gripping completely or getting fairly sideways, but nowhere in between. So, if you found the limit but didn't poke it too hard, it just felt really stable all the time. Most cars are something like that, and that's what people are used to. But in the RX-8, the oversteer begins sooner but comes on much more gradually. It's not actually running out of grip faster; it's just capable of smaller slip angles at the rear. So, in those little moments where you're a hair's breadth over the tire's limit, the RX-8 gives you a little wiggle at the rear whereas most cars would have a tiny moment of understeer. Neither is really more dangerous than the other; the RX-8 just feels livelier.
Thoughts?
I suspect that a lot of what people read as "twitchiness" is actually just a benign difference in how the car acts when it's just past the limit. I remember my old M3 would understeer, then understeer more, and then have this sudden transition to oversteer. It was like the rear axle didn't know how to be anywhere between 0º and 5º of slip; it was either gripping completely or getting fairly sideways, but nowhere in between. So, if you found the limit but didn't poke it too hard, it just felt really stable all the time. Most cars are something like that, and that's what people are used to. But in the RX-8, the oversteer begins sooner but comes on much more gradually. It's not actually running out of grip faster; it's just capable of smaller slip angles at the rear. So, in those little moments where you're a hair's breadth over the tire's limit, the RX-8 gives you a little wiggle at the rear whereas most cars would have a tiny moment of understeer. Neither is really more dangerous than the other; the RX-8 just feels livelier.
Thoughts?
03-19-2016, 10:18 PM
#18
I think this has a lot to do with the driver's reaction to onset of oversteer. Your average driver will lift when the car starts doing unexpected things, which is enough to turn controlled oversteer into Weeeeeeeeee!
Also don't get the on-throttle oversteer, this car doesn't have that much torque. Unless you're taking a turn at the top of 1st (why?) or 2nd and stab the throttle, I don't see how a healthy car on healrhy tires can get out of hand. This is from racing in the rain. Being smooth on the pedals has a lot to do with not getting into trouble...it should be basic driver education.
Also don't get the on-throttle oversteer, this car doesn't have that much torque. Unless you're taking a turn at the top of 1st (why?) or 2nd and stab the throttle, I don't see how a healthy car on healrhy tires can get out of hand. This is from racing in the rain. Being smooth on the pedals has a lot to do with not getting into trouble...it should be basic driver education.
03-20-2016, 02:18 AM
#19
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OP, you can check if your car has TCS/DSC. There's a button to the left of the steering column (if the car is LHD). If you don't have it, your car doesn't have traction control.
03-21-2016, 01:15 PM
#21
Something else about twitchiness; would love to get some more informed feedback on this.
I suspect that a lot of what people read as "twitchiness" is actually just a benign difference in how the car acts when it's just past the limit. I remember my old M3 would understeer, then understeer more, and then have this sudden transition to oversteer. It was like the rear axle didn't know how to be anywhere between 0º and 5º of slip; it was either gripping completely or getting fairly sideways, but nowhere in between. So, if you found the limit but didn't poke it too hard, it just felt really stable all the time. Most cars are something like that, and that's what people are used to. But in the RX-8, the oversteer begins sooner but comes on much more gradually. It's not actually running out of grip faster; it's just capable of smaller slip angles at the rear. So, in those little moments where you're a hair's breadth over the tire's limit, the RX-8 gives you a little wiggle at the rear whereas most cars would have a tiny moment of understeer. Neither is really more dangerous than the other; the RX-8 just feels livelier.
Thoughts?
I suspect that a lot of what people read as "twitchiness" is actually just a benign difference in how the car acts when it's just past the limit. I remember my old M3 would understeer, then understeer more, and then have this sudden transition to oversteer. It was like the rear axle didn't know how to be anywhere between 0º and 5º of slip; it was either gripping completely or getting fairly sideways, but nowhere in between. So, if you found the limit but didn't poke it too hard, it just felt really stable all the time. Most cars are something like that, and that's what people are used to. But in the RX-8, the oversteer begins sooner but comes on much more gradually. It's not actually running out of grip faster; it's just capable of smaller slip angles at the rear. So, in those little moments where you're a hair's breadth over the tire's limit, the RX-8 gives you a little wiggle at the rear whereas most cars would have a tiny moment of understeer. Neither is really more dangerous than the other; the RX-8 just feels livelier.
Thoughts?
03-21-2016, 01:39 PM
#22
Summer:
- Bridgestone Potenza RE050 (okay)
- Kumho Ecsta SPT (bad)
- Falken FK-452 (horrific -- car became intolerable to drive at half tread depth)
- Continental ContiSportContact 3 (good but squidgy)
- Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (perfect)
- Michelin Pilot Super Sport (better than perfect)
Winter:
- Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 (good)
Same basic handling characteristics with all of them. However, the better tires had better feel, better response, MUCH more grip, more predictable and controllable breakaway, better behavior in rain, and better NVH and performance at low tread depths.
The Pilot Super Sport was almost scarily good in that last respect. I had them down to the wear bars and the car still wouldn't hydroplane, even at highway speeds.
- Bridgestone Potenza RE050 (okay)
- Kumho Ecsta SPT (bad)
- Falken FK-452 (horrific -- car became intolerable to drive at half tread depth)
- Continental ContiSportContact 3 (good but squidgy)
- Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (perfect)
- Michelin Pilot Super Sport (better than perfect)
Winter:
- Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 (good)
Same basic handling characteristics with all of them. However, the better tires had better feel, better response, MUCH more grip, more predictable and controllable breakaway, better behavior in rain, and better NVH and performance at low tread depths.
The Pilot Super Sport was almost scarily good in that last respect. I had them down to the wear bars and the car still wouldn't hydroplane, even at highway speeds.
Last edited by IamFodi; 03-21-2016 at 01:43 PM.
03-22-2016, 01:53 PM
#23
Summer:
- Bridgestone Potenza RE050 (okay)
- Kumho Ecsta SPT (bad)
- Falken FK-452 (horrific -- car became intolerable to drive at half tread depth)
- Continental ContiSportContact 3 (good but squidgy)
- Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (perfect)
- Michelin Pilot Super Sport (better than perfect)
Winter:
- Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 (good)
Same basic handling characteristics with all of them. However, the better tires had better feel, better response, MUCH more grip, more predictable and controllable breakaway, better behavior in rain, and better NVH and performance at low tread depths.
The Pilot Super Sport was almost scarily good in that last respect. I had them down to the wear bars and the car still wouldn't hydroplane, even at highway speeds.
- Bridgestone Potenza RE050 (okay)
- Kumho Ecsta SPT (bad)
- Falken FK-452 (horrific -- car became intolerable to drive at half tread depth)
- Continental ContiSportContact 3 (good but squidgy)
- Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (perfect)
- Michelin Pilot Super Sport (better than perfect)
Winter:
- Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 (good)
Same basic handling characteristics with all of them. However, the better tires had better feel, better response, MUCH more grip, more predictable and controllable breakaway, better behavior in rain, and better NVH and performance at low tread depths.
The Pilot Super Sport was almost scarily good in that last respect. I had them down to the wear bars and the car still wouldn't hydroplane, even at highway speeds.
Could've also had a bit of toe out in the rear, that usually results in a slightly twitchy feel.
03-22-2016, 04:58 PM
#24
...Huh?
There was no twitchiness in the M3. Definitely didn't have any toe out either. It wasn't unruly or loose or anything. It just had a threshold of understeer that you had to punch through, at which point you suddenly got at least X degrees of slip angle, though the response was nice and linear past that point.
I brought it up as a point of contrast, because most cars are more like the M3 than the RX-8. The RX-8 is much more linear all the way from understeer through oversteer, and can hold those smaller rear slip angles that the M3 didn't seem comfortable with.
The M3 is safer for drivers pushing just to the edge of the car's ability, and feels more stable. The RX-8 is more capable, gives an experienced driver more to play with, and feels livelier.
There was no twitchiness in the M3. Definitely didn't have any toe out either. It wasn't unruly or loose or anything. It just had a threshold of understeer that you had to punch through, at which point you suddenly got at least X degrees of slip angle, though the response was nice and linear past that point.
I brought it up as a point of contrast, because most cars are more like the M3 than the RX-8. The RX-8 is much more linear all the way from understeer through oversteer, and can hold those smaller rear slip angles that the M3 didn't seem comfortable with.
The M3 is safer for drivers pushing just to the edge of the car's ability, and feels more stable. The RX-8 is more capable, gives an experienced driver more to play with, and feels livelier.
03-24-2016, 08:39 AM
#25
Ahh, sorry I got your original comment and some of OP's issues mixed up in my head. 
I've never owned or driven an M3, the closest thing I've driven is a 1M, and it was pretty similar to what you described (it probably should be, since they share a bunch of suspension components). Felt rock solid right up until it got just a bit of understeer, and if you pressed it just a bit more the rear would suddenly step out. It sort of felt like it had too much sway bar to me, but I'm really not 100% sure.
On a side note, I really disliked the driving position in that car. It was comfortable, but I never was able to get the seat low enough so it kinda felt like I was driving a pickup.
I've never owned or driven an M3, the closest thing I've driven is a 1M, and it was pretty similar to what you described (it probably should be, since they share a bunch of suspension components). Felt rock solid right up until it got just a bit of understeer, and if you pressed it just a bit more the rear would suddenly step out. It sort of felt like it had too much sway bar to me, but I'm really not 100% sure.
On a side note, I really disliked the driving position in that car. It was comfortable, but I never was able to get the seat low enough so it kinda felt like I was driving a pickup.