Pikes Peak Rotary Discussion
09-25-2014, 03:27 PM
#1
Pikes Peak Rotary Discussion
I posted about this in the B@W thread because well I was bored at work.
I got the idea of doing PP rotary because I saw Gas Monkey Garage's Aaron Kaufman did it in his 63 Falcon.
This is to discussion a more viable power train set up i.e. REW, boosted Rensis or a 20b. I realize that there is more to it than just the power train but this is the heart of the car and would require the most attention.
EDIT:
This is for discussion/educational purposes not a 'you are full **** and this is why' thread.
I got the idea of doing PP rotary because I saw Gas Monkey Garage's Aaron Kaufman did it in his 63 Falcon.
This is to discussion a more viable power train set up i.e. REW, boosted Rensis or a 20b. I realize that there is more to it than just the power train but this is the heart of the car and would require the most attention.
EDIT:
This is for discussion/educational purposes not a 'you are full **** and this is why' thread.
Last edited by hoosier1104; 09-25-2014 at 03:44 PM.
09-25-2014, 03:35 PM
#2
Driving my unreliable rx8
Turbo would be needed on any of them imho. To make up for the air loss at atsmophere. You could essentially maintain the same power level all the way to the top.
09-25-2014, 04:52 PM
#8
Not really. Exhibition is for cars that can't really fit into any of the traditional categories. The time attack category is pretty open as far as rules go and you would be up against similar cars. They are all production vehicles instead of you getting slaughtered by weird tube frame concept type cars.
09-25-2014, 05:11 PM
#12
My suggestion is get a daily, and now the RX-8 is a dedicated track car. But don't do anything more to it. Leave it exactly the way it is right now. Learn the car, then when you start to get competent driving it, make SMALL changes. Maybe sway bars. Maybe brakes. Maybe coilovers. Never add more power until everything else is how you want it.
Just sign up for NASA or something, and start driving. You will learn from new friends there and on your own how you are going to need to modify the car to go faster and maybe one day make it to Pikes Peak.
Your first experience at the track should be pretty eye opening.
09-25-2014, 05:21 PM
#13
I totally understand that track experience is always beneficial but should not deter someone from accomplishing a goal. I have told stuff like that my entire life and it has never stopped me from trying to attain it.
I just more input of drive trains people are running currently. I want to make an educated decision versus just throwing **** together and hoping it works.
What hp do you think would be acceptable to be competitive and streetable?
I just more input of drive trains people are running currently. I want to make an educated decision versus just throwing **** together and hoping it works.
What hp do you think would be acceptable to be competitive and streetable?
09-25-2014, 05:31 PM
#14
I totally understand that track experience is always beneficial but should not deter someone from accomplishing a goal. I have told stuff like that my entire life and it has never stopped me from trying to attain it.
I just more input of drive trains people are running currently. I want to make an educated decision versus just throwing **** together and hoping it works.
What hp do you think would be acceptable to be competitive and streetable?
I just more input of drive trains people are running currently. I want to make an educated decision versus just throwing **** together and hoping it works.
What hp do you think would be acceptable to be competitive and streetable?
I would not attempt Pikes Peak in a car that is anywhere near streetable. Full FIA rally spec roll cage, and all the safety gear that usually comes with that. You MIGHT be able to register it for the street but it depends on where you live.
I didn't tell you that you can't do it.
Just start going to the track and you will figure out for yourself how you want to build the car, that's what happened to me. If you asked me at my very first track day what my car would be like in the future, the description I'd give is definitely nowhere close to what it actually is right now.
What you use for drivetrain will not be a decision you will make after getting some responses in this thread. It's a decision you will probably make years from now after getting some good track experience under your belt. If you make a decision right now, I'm betting by the time you get geared up to start the project and have some seat time, you will change your mind.
If you really want to know a competitive horsepower number... probably 500WHP minimum. Pikes Peak is no joke and the rules in classes like time attack are not restrictive at all as far as what you can and cannot do.
You will not survive something like this in a streetable car.
And here is an example of a competitive car. 700AWHP.
Last edited by Arca_ex; 09-25-2014 at 05:35 PM.
09-25-2014, 08:37 PM
#16
And if you don't want a car that will do that then don't swap the motor, and don't expect to be anywhere near competitive.
You'll see after you finally get to go out to the track lol...
09-25-2014, 09:07 PM
#17
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For what it's worth, horsepower numbers are fun to talk about, but have no business being applied to race cars until there is substantial experience in hand. There is a reason that outside of Nascar, Indy, and Formula1, there are virtually no race series with any car producing more than about 450hp.
IF you do seriously intend on doing Pikes Peak one day, I highly recommend that you aim small. Go there in the LOWEST and SLOWEST class you can first. This is assuming that you already have all the track experience you need to get a competition license, which you need to even register for these kind of events. I want to do Targa Newfoundland one day, so I know the desire. If you haven't even been to an HPDE, you are at least $15,000 and 2 years from going without even upgrading your 8.
If you want to get there as fast as you can, then skip HPDE, and sign up with proven driver's training schools, like Bondurant, Skip Barber, etc... It's a whole lot more expensive per minute of seat time, but the training is top notch and you can get to that competition license a lot faster. You are still missing that seat time though. Slower progress and cheaper per minute is HPDE, though you will end up paying more in the long run than a school, since you will be covering all your own car wear and tear and other expenses that come along with it. I'm in NASA HPDE2 (about to head to Watkin's Glenn for a track weekend), and even with a cheaper Miata (boosted, but parts and wear is still cheaper than an 8), I average about $800-$1,100 a track weekend. It all adds up in a hurry.
There is a private joke between me and some of my friends about what "streetable" is. If it's a car with around 400whp, a cage, mild to heavy aero, and reliability mods, then it isn't streetable. If it's a car putting down around 800whp+, it's a daily driver. Seems backwards, but it consistently proves out to be true. Those huge power cars have a huge driveability range out of boost, and so spend most of their life making more like 100-150whp, and when they do crack the throttle open harder, it only lasts for a heartbeat. Not only is it virtually impossible to use that much power for any duration on the street, but even on the track it's extremely difficult. Even if you tried, you end up with a busted car because those cars are not equipped to be able to handle the amount of drivetrain strain, powertrain heat, and suspension abuse that will come with that much power. The 400whp cars with money elsewhere other than power... those are the ones that are painful to drive on the street, exhausting to drive anywhere, and really not viable for the street at all.
It may seem like you could use more power on the track, but you really can't. People forget that 800whp is easy to use when you are starting from a really low speed, and only going to a moderately high speed. People forget that on most tracks, the slowest corner is already moderate speed or higher, and that straight afterwards is enough to get to ludicrously high speeds. On both of the tracks I've been on so far, and I expect again this weekend at Watkins Glenn, at 2490lbs + me + instructor, ~200whp is enough for me to cross 130mph where I have significant aero stability problems. The 8 is more stable than my MSM, but still, it's things like that which are often forgotten. Cooling is another big one. The stock cooling in my MSM is good for ~300whp of street driving, but will collapse under just 140whp of track driving. I have a laundry list of cooling upgrades to keep my ~200whp heat in check. 700whp+? More might be spent on keeping it cool for 20 minutes than it took to get to 700whp in the first place. Again, there are is a whole lot more to what power means.
My friends and I also see periodically this huge misconception about what power is, and we think it's because of the false advertisements that so many product makers make. The most recent one was a VW Golf guy claiming he had 300whp, because that was what he got adding up the numbers on his intake, his chip, and his catback. He honestly didn't have any idea that those claims were probably fake, and while he did get some power, he clearly thought "Hmm, is that all that +150hp feels like?" Well of course he would want more like 800whp then, according to the false information he got. What he actually wants is more like 220, up from his current 160.
Very few people in the online enthusiast world really understand how much power even 400whp is. They only see people putting down more, and they see magazine numbers, and they may even feel the edge of that kind of power in a huge overweight muscle car making less power-to-weight than my MSM (I can easily outrun a V8 Challenger at the moment, at ~240ish whp on the street, i turn it down for the track).
When you add the dangers of Pike's Peak into it... yeah, I can see the appeal, but frankly ignore the power. Go there with a caged naturally aspirated car for a few years first and learn the course, learn where your own limits are on it, and then start looking to go faster. And even then, most of your money will be spent in keeping the car reliable at whatever power you are making, not in increasing it.
Thumbs up on the desire though, definitely go for it. Just go for it with a solid frame of reference.
IF you do seriously intend on doing Pikes Peak one day, I highly recommend that you aim small. Go there in the LOWEST and SLOWEST class you can first. This is assuming that you already have all the track experience you need to get a competition license, which you need to even register for these kind of events. I want to do Targa Newfoundland one day, so I know the desire. If you haven't even been to an HPDE, you are at least $15,000 and 2 years from going without even upgrading your 8.
If you want to get there as fast as you can, then skip HPDE, and sign up with proven driver's training schools, like Bondurant, Skip Barber, etc... It's a whole lot more expensive per minute of seat time, but the training is top notch and you can get to that competition license a lot faster. You are still missing that seat time though. Slower progress and cheaper per minute is HPDE, though you will end up paying more in the long run than a school, since you will be covering all your own car wear and tear and other expenses that come along with it. I'm in NASA HPDE2 (about to head to Watkin's Glenn for a track weekend), and even with a cheaper Miata (boosted, but parts and wear is still cheaper than an 8), I average about $800-$1,100 a track weekend. It all adds up in a hurry.
There is a private joke between me and some of my friends about what "streetable" is. If it's a car with around 400whp, a cage, mild to heavy aero, and reliability mods, then it isn't streetable. If it's a car putting down around 800whp+, it's a daily driver. Seems backwards, but it consistently proves out to be true. Those huge power cars have a huge driveability range out of boost, and so spend most of their life making more like 100-150whp, and when they do crack the throttle open harder, it only lasts for a heartbeat. Not only is it virtually impossible to use that much power for any duration on the street, but even on the track it's extremely difficult. Even if you tried, you end up with a busted car because those cars are not equipped to be able to handle the amount of drivetrain strain, powertrain heat, and suspension abuse that will come with that much power. The 400whp cars with money elsewhere other than power... those are the ones that are painful to drive on the street, exhausting to drive anywhere, and really not viable for the street at all.
It may seem like you could use more power on the track, but you really can't. People forget that 800whp is easy to use when you are starting from a really low speed, and only going to a moderately high speed. People forget that on most tracks, the slowest corner is already moderate speed or higher, and that straight afterwards is enough to get to ludicrously high speeds. On both of the tracks I've been on so far, and I expect again this weekend at Watkins Glenn, at 2490lbs + me + instructor, ~200whp is enough for me to cross 130mph where I have significant aero stability problems. The 8 is more stable than my MSM, but still, it's things like that which are often forgotten. Cooling is another big one. The stock cooling in my MSM is good for ~300whp of street driving, but will collapse under just 140whp of track driving. I have a laundry list of cooling upgrades to keep my ~200whp heat in check. 700whp+? More might be spent on keeping it cool for 20 minutes than it took to get to 700whp in the first place. Again, there are is a whole lot more to what power means.
My friends and I also see periodically this huge misconception about what power is, and we think it's because of the false advertisements that so many product makers make. The most recent one was a VW Golf guy claiming he had 300whp, because that was what he got adding up the numbers on his intake, his chip, and his catback. He honestly didn't have any idea that those claims were probably fake, and while he did get some power, he clearly thought "Hmm, is that all that +150hp feels like?" Well of course he would want more like 800whp then, according to the false information he got. What he actually wants is more like 220, up from his current 160.
Very few people in the online enthusiast world really understand how much power even 400whp is. They only see people putting down more, and they see magazine numbers, and they may even feel the edge of that kind of power in a huge overweight muscle car making less power-to-weight than my MSM (I can easily outrun a V8 Challenger at the moment, at ~240ish whp on the street, i turn it down for the track).
When you add the dangers of Pike's Peak into it... yeah, I can see the appeal, but frankly ignore the power. Go there with a caged naturally aspirated car for a few years first and learn the course, learn where your own limits are on it, and then start looking to go faster. And even then, most of your money will be spent in keeping the car reliable at whatever power you are making, not in increasing it.
Thumbs up on the desire though, definitely go for it. Just go for it with a solid frame of reference.
Last edited by RIWWP; 09-25-2014 at 09:18 PM.
09-26-2014, 06:54 AM
#18
Guys I really appreciate the input. I am definitely going to try and get track time next summer. I say next summer because the weather here in IN is changing and the 8 does not see snow.
My goal is a nice suspension, all safety requirements met, good/functional areo with around 350-400 whp. I know these numbers are just that, numbers. I figure those are more realistic. I am still relatively new to rotaries and the learning curve is steep. I have learned that the best way for me to learn is to get out there and do it.
Let me better explain my definition of streetable. Something that is fun to drive on the street but has the capability to go to the track and be competitive. I had a 05 V8 based Ranger which is a little different animal but it was unique for this area. That is what I am aiming for, good/functional hp numbers, good suspension, safety requirements met, good/functional areo and very unique. There are a couple 8's in my neighborhood but I seriously doubt that they want to do anything like this. I have the desire and determination to do it though.
My goal is a nice suspension, all safety requirements met, good/functional areo with around 350-400 whp. I know these numbers are just that, numbers. I figure those are more realistic. I am still relatively new to rotaries and the learning curve is steep. I have learned that the best way for me to learn is to get out there and do it.
Let me better explain my definition of streetable. Something that is fun to drive on the street but has the capability to go to the track and be competitive. I had a 05 V8 based Ranger which is a little different animal but it was unique for this area. That is what I am aiming for, good/functional hp numbers, good suspension, safety requirements met, good/functional areo and very unique. There are a couple 8's in my neighborhood but I seriously doubt that they want to do anything like this. I have the desire and determination to do it though.
09-26-2014, 07:31 AM
#19
Driving my unreliable rx8
The original purpose of turbos was for airplanes to compensate for altitude. And i agree the supercharger will have the same power loss from altitude.
Turbos are better for race engines anyway. They stay spooled up and done have the parasitic losses.
Power for pikes peak doesn't have to be high. They're loosing a lot of power. If you ran 350 ish rwhp with a turbo. You should maintain power to the top and be equivalent to 500+ hp na engines.
I agree with pearl that you'll need a lot of car mods not engine. I think cooling will be the most difficult. Sure its colder but theres that much less air to take away the heat. The other thing is a lot of drag type pulls just to slow down for a corner. The radiator wont get a lot of time with high flow air.
Turbos are better for race engines anyway. They stay spooled up and done have the parasitic losses.
Power for pikes peak doesn't have to be high. They're loosing a lot of power. If you ran 350 ish rwhp with a turbo. You should maintain power to the top and be equivalent to 500+ hp na engines.
I agree with pearl that you'll need a lot of car mods not engine. I think cooling will be the most difficult. Sure its colder but theres that much less air to take away the heat. The other thing is a lot of drag type pulls just to slow down for a corner. The radiator wont get a lot of time with high flow air.
09-26-2014, 01:26 PM
#20
So FI turbo has been determined as the best set up thus far. The question is REW or Renny? The mechanic that up my current motor in says REW is far more reliable in the hp range I want to be in. He is bias given that is what he runs in his drift car. Anyone disagree? I may have found a donor motor already that has low compression (I think. Ad says it will not start.).
09-26-2014, 04:30 PM
#23
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REW rather than renesis, but that is a question to be answered 2+ years from now (most likely more).
It's worth reiterating that horsepower and engine choice are not even on your list of things to do yet. Actual seat time at the track (any track), competition license, safety equipment, beginning to set up the suspension to fit your driving style, - effectively re-building the car from the ground up. The sooner you get some track time, the sooner you will start to understand where the car's and your own limitations are. While there are plenty of RX8 race cars out there that you can use as a "reference" of sorts, there is no kit (or series of kits) that you can purchase that will make the car work for your intended goals. The majority of the parts will be decided on based on (1) class rules and (2) trial and error (both the "try it and didn't like it/it didn't work" type, and the "try it and it/something else broke" type).
As the weather up north begins to head south - head south (or west) for some driver training. Make use of the winter by getting at least some on track experience at a driving school.
This is not meant to discourage you in any way, and I genuinely hope you are successful in your aspirations.
It's worth reiterating that horsepower and engine choice are not even on your list of things to do yet. Actual seat time at the track (any track), competition license, safety equipment, beginning to set up the suspension to fit your driving style, - effectively re-building the car from the ground up. The sooner you get some track time, the sooner you will start to understand where the car's and your own limitations are. While there are plenty of RX8 race cars out there that you can use as a "reference" of sorts, there is no kit (or series of kits) that you can purchase that will make the car work for your intended goals. The majority of the parts will be decided on based on (1) class rules and (2) trial and error (both the "try it and didn't like it/it didn't work" type, and the "try it and it/something else broke" type).
As the weather up north begins to head south - head south (or west) for some driver training. Make use of the winter by getting at least some on track experience at a driving school.
This is not meant to discourage you in any way, and I genuinely hope you are successful in your aspirations.
09-29-2014, 08:06 AM
#24
I think I will look into this place since it is local to me.
Driver Development Program - Professional Driving School - Indiana
Driver Development Program - Professional Driving School - Indiana
