cliffkemp

The engineering of this car is crazy. Why would you put a radiator cap on plastic? why make it so hard to work on for the average mechanic (easy one here, rip off everyone at the dealer.... first time i bought plugs, 55 dollars a piece...) why give a 6th gear that still screams at 3000 at 60mph and kill mpg... Why control every aspect of the car with a computer that will mess up at some point in time and cost so much due to not being able to swap them out... knowing people are going to tune the cars, why not make the ecu programmable like some cars of the past... why pay 1700 just for the 5.125 dif in the rear when mustang difs are 1/5 the cost.... why not make everything interchangeable from series one to two on all the major components.... why not put coils on that actually can make a .048 average gap with pleanty of room to spare.... why not have that fance display actually tell you what is wrong with the car when not running correctly.... why make the car so big.... offer a 2 seater version that is lighter.... thin oil is not helping either.... why not make a resevoir for 2 stroke oil and seal the oil system so people can opt for synthetic... I am sure there are many other issues that people can come up with...

Its like the engineers just build something without thinking it through at all. Just slap it together and hope for the best. My car is having electrical issues and, I think the radiator thing is cracked on mine as it is leaking. I have been modding cars for a while but, the 8 is not worth it to me due to being so crazily engineered. If there are any engineers out there listening, Mazda is going in the wrong direction and will show in future generations. I will never buy another Mazday new, ever. I do love my 8 but, not sure how much longer I will keep it.... turning into a money pit... My rx7 is 10x easier to deal with and it is an 85.... dependable and all be it, slow but, gets me from a to b with no drama. If I want power, I have 2 talons and an eclipse that range from 300 to 550 hp.

BigCajun

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wcs

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I did love my Talon. Epic car.

cliffkemp

I love all my cars, including the 8 but, hate the engineering behind it, when it comes to being able to work on it and all the cpu controlled stuff. At times, I have thought about converting it to a carbed car but, cannot get the power with a carb and pass emissions and too expensive to do anyway. I have too many cars to be messing with it due to still having a working a/c, and usually runs good, in general. I think the 02 sensor went out but, I get between 2 and 7 codes when I put the reader on it. It cannot make up its mind what is wrong other than a 31 and 37 code that is on every time it throws a code. the other codes come and go.

How can you assess an issue when it is not consistent? I will get an 02 sensor for it and hopefully, that will fix it. The alternator went out.... go figure that the rx8 and 7 went in the same week... strange. I want to keep the car. I am not going to put much money into it though. I put less into my rx7 with a pull a part 180 dollar engine... paid 1000 for it and put a water pump, nice silicone hoses on and a motor and alternator for about 1500 in the car and runs without question.

cliffkemp

The way I feel about the car at times....

IamFodi

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Why not?


The whole point of a rotary engine is to be mounted low and back in the car. What could they possibly have done to make things more accessible without giving up on the purpose of the car?


It already lugs HARD at that RPM if you try to accelerate at all. Any lower and it wouldn't be able to hold its speed on an uphill stretch.


Because... mechanical systems fail, too?


Because people will mess it up and blame Mazda. That happens already with these cars -- no reason to make it any easier.


Everything is cheap for a Mustang.


When a company completely revamps a powertrain to address past failures, you're lucky when the new part is an easy swap.


Now here, I agree FULLY. I HATE how so many cars have really good LCDs but give you nothing but an idiot light when something goes wrong.

My only guess is that they don't want uninformed owners diagnosing things. Don't forget, people like us might have some idea what to do with the information, but for most people it'd just make them more dangerous.


Ford demanded that it be a 4-door 4-seater. It was that or the car wouldn't be made at all.


At least all 5w-20 is a synthetic blend, even if it's labeled conventional...


The average person can't even be trusted to stop driving when the oil light comes on. No way in hell could they be trusted with a separate oil reservoir to manage.


Oh yes. Fuel economy and emissions of a truck, torque of an econobox, mediocre ride, slightly forward-biased weight distribution despite the fancy-pantsy engine -- which doesn't actually weigh much less than an aluminum I4 piston engine, etc. etc....

This is exactly what I signed up for, though, so it's hard for me to complain.


Sounds like those other cars are more your speed anyway.

As far as Mazda's general direction and engineering: they are doing more than any other company to bring legitimately good driving dynamics to the general public. Their other cars are pretty solid, too -- even with direct injection, which is quite a thing to say. So, I'd say it's a bit of an exaggeration to call them bad engineers.

nycgps

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*facepalm*

i dont even know what to say ... op fails so much ...

IamFodi

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I think at least some of the questions are fair. The general sentiment certainly is.

nycgps

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I can say the same thing about a lot of different cars.

if u hate it, sorry, sell it and move on.

Dokuji

Most of the work on the rotary in both theorem and practice is technically easier. Yes, they can have serious mechanical failure, as can every car ever made. The 8 can also be a very reliable, enjoyable, and critically acclaimed drivers car with some very unique and, indeed, very intelligently engineered complexity. No car is perfect, mate. That's part of the fun though.

If you pay to have all your work done by mechanics it can be and is taken advantage of by shops and dealerships but the true cost of ownership isn't anything completely disproportionate to owning any piston engined vehicles i've known either. Then again it could just all be bad luck or happenstance too.

I suppose i offer condolences to your grievance but to just trash this car's engineering because sometimes they need fixin' is ridiculous. Preventative maintenance should be a standard practice on any chassis

Loki

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Uhmm. To be honest, this is one of the easier cars to work on I've ever touched, it's practically Lego.

Like I remember I was doing the timing belt on my Paseo and.. lol I said timing belt.

Legot

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What's a timing belt? I wouldn't know because my car is dead simple and doesn't have any valves.

Roytary

I might repeat myself here but this car , no matter how great it is and how much i love it, is a great concept as a whole, but reality is that this car went accessible to the wrong crowd. Mazda wanted to give ppl a well built sport car @ accessible price range, witch ain't the problem here. They gave a heart to this car, their pride, but still @ affordable price. The Renesis was born, a well engineered N/A wankel thats cost less to produce than a 300+whp turbo 13b as an evolution from a REW, and requires cheaper ''less stronger'' drivetrain to support it so they produced the RX8 we all know @ a price no other similar cars '' as a package'' was available. But you can't expect so many hairdresser ladys to understand and maintain a wankel as an otto cycle, as a result we ended up seeing shitloads of renesis blowing up early and the bad reputation it soon had. YES we would all expect ''As rotary fans'' better components under the hood on some aspects, but we have to remember how cheap the 8 was and still is to get compared to an FD, yes the FD was more powerfull, was more performance oriented from scratch, but @ witch price ? As a ex FD owner myself i was and still is in contact with other owners and i dont recall hearing that much complaints ever about a 13b, but we all knew what a wankel was and treated it as one. Civic boys or hairdressers didnt own much of these. Mazda have to live with the consequences of what they gave the public, and us ''fans'' have to live with negative feedbacks and accept it. Ppl that respect, love and enjoy their rx8 should also live and fix it's flaws. I sold my fd to built a 8 and i dont regret it at all, Mine ain't stock at all, I love this car and knew what i had to modify/upgrade with it so i can enjoy it as i want to, but i didn't expect it to be my fd from scratch, i sold my fd 10x the price i've paid for my 8, being 12 yrs older than the 8.
I get it when i hear bad feedback from average owners, they just didn't knew what they were getting into, they didn't knew what they were buying at all.

VFX001

You can thank Ford's influence for that. Ford would not allow Mazda to make another 2-door sports car at the same time as the Miata, and the choice of a naturally aspirated engine was almost certainly due to emissions constraints.

Mazda was tasked with making a great handling sports car with four doors and reasonable emissions for a much lower selling price than the FD RX-7. In light of the design constraints that they had to work with, I think Mazda's engineers did an absolutely brilliant job. I'd much rather have the RX-8 in Mazda's lineup that nothing.

You can complain all day long about "why four doors, why no turbo," etc. but you can't blame Mazda for the choices that were made for them by the holders of the purse strings.

Dokuji

^^ very true, and in retrospect, this is one case where I'm actually glad about something ford has done ;P the doors add to the unique style and give a touch more practicality to the package. Many of us wouldn't be able to enjoy the 8 without them. Yaknow, baby seats and all :D
The 8 is an amazing car. Mazda would be doing the fans and even the entire motoring culture a disservice by not pursuing a proper successor.

cliffkemp

Appreciate the personal attack...

The engineering behind the car is aweful from a mechanical standpoint and not a drivers standpoint. I like the car, hence, I bought one. I grew up in a time where you checked your oil, and other fluids almost daily. My grandfather owned a service station back to the 50s.

The plastic top on the radiator is a bad idea as all the heating and cooling fatigues the plastic easily.

The 3000 rpms for 6th gear is not needed as, I can still accelerate on a 6% grade with that gear. Even a 22 to 23 mile per 1000 would help on mpg and was just an issue that, I knew about buying the car and not THAT big of a deal.

interchangeable parts can go either way and not THAT big of a deal.

a 4.777 rear that is 700, 4.10 700, but a 5.125 is 1700 is just stupid.

Mechanical systems fail less often that electrical, hense my rx7 running just fine as it is carbed and 85 model at that with a 12a with a whopping 105 whp and is thrashed constantly with 140k miles, no oil pump (premix religiously).

97 and 98 talons had reprogrammable computers and, not an issue and were cheaper than the rx8 or about the same given inflation and trim model

What does ford have to do with the rx8. Ford was a shareholder, not a decision maker. If ford owned more than 50%, I would agree with that statement but, being a shareholder and making decisions are 2 different things. Ford never, in mazda's history, owned mazda, other than shares. Just as in the 90s, ford did share platforms with mazda to cut down costs but the rx7 and rx8 platforms were never shared by either company. Mazda did use a few parts to complete the rx8 but, never had a say-so in the production.... Just like mitsubishi and chrysler of the late 80s and 90s. I hear this BS all the time and it is not true at all.

5-20 is a thin oil, regardless of manmade or dug out of the ground. Thin oil is a bad idea for anything that has fast moving parts like the rotary does. I could see this in F1 due to very extremely tight clearances but, production cars do not even compare in this one.

the 2 stroke could go either way.... if you have a reservoir for it and put a light on the dash for it as well, people with a brain would know. If not, mazda does not have to warranty an idiot. Again, as stated at the top, I grew up around people that ACTUALLY paid attention to fluids and tire pressure and what have you. The general public, being as car illiterate as they are, is no excuse. They are way too lazy, these days and is why I hear the BS about the rotary 'uses oil' all cars do but the rotary is designed to unless you premix then, it will use that oil and not crankcase oil. Problem solved. If people do not understand this, point them to a car that is less complicated, in their capacity, to own and call it a day.

I do like my 8, I was so optimistic when, I heard that the 1.6 might be coming as, I defended the rotary on youtube and in person all the time. I, truly, believe that, if Mazda spent more time and, unfortunately in this economy, money, the rotary could overcome its issues with larger rotors that are narrower to give more tq and still keep efficiency, as well as, direct injection and a more powerful ignition system. They have, yet, to try rotor cut off with a 3 or even 4 rotor.... Many things have not been tried with today's metal mix and technology. We may never know now and Mazda releases what they want people to know. It is what it is.

Yes, I like my DSM cars as, they are good cars from a time where there was a transition going on. 90s cars were lighter but, starting to put on weight, less reliant of electronics so, can run with or without an 02 sensor... in the case of my DSMs, good handling for their day, awd for traction, hatchback for hauling, within reason, ability to be modded fairly cheaply with huge payoffs in performance and a following similar to that of the rx cars. This why I own both.

My reason for not liking mazda (not the 8 itself) is because, they did not learn from their mistakes from the rx7.... yes some things were improved and kudos to those improvements but, for the people like me and others, weight, some engineering and some things on the car that make you go hmmmmm... It could have been better.....

Case in point, miata. It was about to get bad but, Mazda did the right thing and went back to the miata's roots... light weight again, smaller car, and back to the essence of driving. The rx7 was just the big brother. The rx8 lost focus and, therefore, failed. 3000gt... failed. supra... failed, celica.... failed, eclipse, failed.

I could go on on all the cars that lost their focus. (no pun intended on ford as the escort was first)

Just as all major companies that are involved in racing, have a successful car that got them there, Mazda lost focus on the rx cars when the 8 was born. It was the rx7 that, caught mazda up with porsche in wins... it was the rx7 that dominated the scca in the 80s and early 90s when it was more focused.

I do love my 8, even with the issues it has. I do get frustrated, just like many others, too.

I ask that you do not flame me, just because I posted my opinion about the car and its shortcomings that, could have been addressed over the last 9 years. Some, maybe not as easily as others, true.

Claiming I 'failed' is rather rude. If you cannot have a civilized discussion and just say people fail or flame them, very rude.

Maybe mazda will come out with another rotary in the near future. I hope so as, I would think about buying one. The 8, Mazda doomed it after the 'revamp' in 09 by not addressing several issues that, people who buy the cars because of what they are and not just to go from a to b. It is the same reason the evo has fallen too.

Loki

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>> The general public, being as car illiterate as they are, is no excuse.

Yeah... about that. Do you want to sell the car just to the people on this forum, or to 50,000 others? Because your final drive gears are going to get a lot more expensive if it's just the folks here

Jastreb

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So, OP, your complaints about the RX-8 boil down to: it's not an RX-7. Frankly, I'm getting tired of seeing RX-7 elitists complain about the RX-8. There's no way I would have bought my RX-8 if it had only 2 seats and cost north of $40,000 (which is what the price of an FD would be if adjusted for inlation). That is Porsche territory, and in that range badge starts to matter more than technical merit, so it wouldn't have sold anyway. The rear doors and rear seats gives the 8 unique practicality in it's class, and allowed me and many others to enjoy it for a daily driver as well as the exquisite rwd chassis and rotary engine. I was not a "rotary guy" before I bought this car, but now I love and appreciate it.

IamFodi

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If that's your complaint, then what you're really implying is that the radiator should be all metal. Fine, though I'd imagine there could be issues at the mating surfaces between different parts unless they get the metallurgy just right -- possible, but expensive.


With how much throttle? That's the point.

23 MPH per 1000 RPM would be more than a 20% reduction. That's a big difference in mechanical advantage, and then you have the fact that the engine is barely alive at 2300 RPM...


Wait. Didn't you just say the car needs a taller 6th gear? Why the fascination with a shorter final drive?


I think the difference you're seeing is simpler vs. more complex, not mechanical vs. electrical.


...And?


From Wikipedia:

"In June 1996, Henry Wallace was appointed President, and he set about restructuring Mazda and setting it on a new strategic direction. He laid out a new direction for the brand including the design of the present Mazda marque; he laid out a new product plan to achieve synergies with Ford, and he launched Mazda's digital innovation program to speed up the development of new products. At the same time, he started taking control of overseas distributors, rationalized dealerships and manufacturing facilities, and driving much needed efficiencies and cost reductions in Mazda's operations. Much of his early work put Mazda back into profitability and laid the foundations for future success. Wallace was succeeded by James Miller in November 1997, followed in December 1999 by Ford executive Mark Fields, who has been credited with expanding Mazda's new product lineup and leading the turnaround during the early 2000s."


Time for a quick primer. Not saying 5w-20 is the best choice; just that the "thick" or "thin" issue is more complicated than this.

5w refers to pumpability at cold temps (below 0º C). 20 refers to low-shear viscosity (basically just how fast it'd flow through a small hole under the force of gravity) at 100º C.

Neither of those covers the most crucial areas in the engine, which are much hotter than 100º C and experience very high shear rates. Synthetic base stocks don't thin out as much under these conditions, so it's not unheard of for an xw-20 to retain as much or more viscosity than a conventional xw-30 in those parts of the engine.


TVR tried that attitude: if you don't like it, don't buy it -- and if you bite off more than you can chew, sucks to be you.

They're dead now, and Mazda isn't. That's not a coincidence.


I feel you 100%.

I'd just offer another way to look at it: what car with equal or bigger back seats handles better than the RX-8? I'm talking any price point, any niche, ever. In 2010, the RX-8 crushed everything in that respect, and nothing has come out since then to challenge it -- except maybe the BMW 1M, which is a lot more expensive and possibly even less reliable...

Mazda didn't feel it could sell another RX-7. Given the preferences of the car buying public, I can't blame them. If you're going to be mad, be mad at the general public for wanting numb, soft, watered-down cars.


Quoting for emphasis.

cliffkemp

First off, I was not trashing it. I stated why, I think, people stopped buying the car. If I did not like the car that much, I would not have bought one brand new. I have been dealing with cars for over 25 years and, I think it is a shame to not develop the rotary more to work out some bugs which, some have been but, some of the obvious, have not. I do most of the work on my cars or, in the case of my 8, I take it to someone that I trust to keep it in decent shape, especially motor and trans.

I change the fluids in my car often. Oil every 3k or so, tans every 30k, same for rear at 30k. I change the plugs often, too. I even take the car to the dyno to make sure it is putting down decent power as, that is an indication of the car running well.

cliffkemp

I am not an rx7 person, per se either as the 8 was my first rotary and the 85 12a (fascinated with power, let me tell ya, and handling) was the second one. It took me less than 2 days to change the motor out of my rx7 and, not even going to attempt the 8, if that ever happens but, I take care of both well and the 7 is running like a top, even tuned to 105 rwhp on the dyno with just the aftermarket exhaust it came with as the only mod.

Everything you just stated about the 8 is why, I bought it and check out some of the youtube 8 vs 350 and you will see that, I am not bashing the 8 at all. I love having to not worry about a timing belt, no valves, few moving parts. the 8 never had to be expensive and, kids these days, along with many adults are idiots thinking that when you buy a car, you do not need to check the oil except to change it, plugs every 100k miles, tires after 30k miles.... its all BS. People are so lazy these days. I check everything all the time because it is just something I do.

I would not have bought my 8 if it did not have a back seat but, if the option were there, I would have bought another one for the weekend and shows with just 2 seats and doors but, I have 2 kids.... you can do the math on that one. why are people being so negative on here about what I said?????

cliffkemp

Where did you see me say, I hate the car. I think some of the engineering behind it is crazy and, during its tenure, could have been addressed better and faster. In general, I love the car for its handling, roomy back (i have sat in the back) overall ability. I do not like when people assume or talk bad about it, in that, its not fast or, it burns oil, or it gets bad mpg. I, once, got nearly 30 but, did drive it very conservatively. got over 200 miles on about half a tank.

Legot

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Nobody cares though.

cliffkemp

I posted this under RX8 discussion.

I was going to discuss aspects about the RX8 that, I did not like, in general and generate ideas.

Saying nobody cares is just stupid as, people have posted on here, their thoughts, all be it, rude at times.

I joined this site as a resource to find information and, I do care about the rotary, in general.

If you do not care, why did you post anything at all? No one forced you to read it or anything. Be constructive or move along.

Anyone else wanting to comment, please stop flaming as this makes the site look bad. Instead, as some have done, state your care either agreeing or disagreeing with facts/opinions presented in the Thread. Bitching and moaning without backing anything up in civil, constructive manner is stupid.

I can agree to disagree but, attacking people on a personal level is uncalled for.

Legot

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Because I like to annoy people on the internet, obviously.