Sneakyracer

Well, now that the power deficiency problem has been well documented here and even Mazda has reduced the advertised power figure of the rx8 (to a still too high figure given the 184 wheel hp dynojet runs posted here) in retrospect what shoulve been the oficial power rating of the rx8 by Mazda ever since the rx8 was announced?

I mean an s2000 is rated at 240hp, dynoes at 192 whp on a dynojet. So Honda rated it nicely or a tad just a tad on the high side. On the other hand chrysler rated a Neon SRT4 at 215 hp and those things dyno at 215+ hp to the wheels stock! (Mazda wouldve rated it at 270hp )

247 or 250 is definately false advertising by Mazda, I even think 238 is STILL false so i recon a 228hp is really fair for consumers.

I was considering the Mazda RX8, unfortunally its really too lacking in power for me to spend over 30k on it. If it had a full 4 pot brembo braking system stock maybe I wouldve considered it. But for the price it only offers average or sub par performance in braking handling (just a tad) and specially acceleration/power. It does offer killer looks and nice interior. BUT its competitors Mitsu EVO, Subaru STI, 350z, S2000 and g35 offer a lot and i mean a LOT more go and look good and are well built. All except the S2000 have brembo brakes. But the S2000 weights a lot less than an Rx8 so it doesnt really need them imho. AT 200 whp stock the RX8 is a must get, at 184 whp stock its a forget.

The Miata power issue isnt as critical because the Miata is a very light car and its a converible so it offers something special and really unique in its price range. The only competition is the Mr2 which isnt really as well built doesnt look as good either but performs better. The rx8 has a LOT more competition since its in a crowded market segment.




Sorry mazda but you suck.

Wing

Wow, just wondering if I should even bother with this thread.

$30k is too much because it doesn't have brembo's? Braking and Handling is sub par? Ummm have you driven the car?

You do realize that the brakes are AWESOME and do not need a name brand, this car will stop faster than the 350Z with brembos.

I could name a few cars that are the same price or more with less power / performance.


I'm not sure why you even bothered to post this?

RotoRooter

yeah, I think this thread is just trolls at play. Hey, dude you have to pay a lot of money to get brems on a 350z or a g. It does not come as a stock-base option. My fully loaded rx8 with NAV cost $32000. The same 350Z $35,500. The same g35 $37,500. Give me a break. Even with the power "loss" you are still getting a lot for your money -- anyway, let me save intelligent comments for intelligent threads . . .

Sneakyracer

I said a little sub par, i would have to say the rx8 is competitive in the handling / braking department. In part due to the rotary being compact and mounted low and to the rear. Power is the main issue here

That has yet to be proven on track days like PCA events where speeds reach over 100 mph approaching 40mph corners.

Yes me too, they are mostly German (like porsche boxster), and/OR dont pretend to be sports cars. Mostly sport/family sedans. But get real, the RX8 competes directly with a g35 coupe, 350z, STI, EVO8 and S2000. And in that group it falls short (in some more than others) in all but the looks department.




But the whole point is failed expectations. I dint say the RX8 is a bad car, just that MAZDA shoulved rated it and maybe priced it accordingly. In that segment price / performance IS an issue. A huge one, if it wasnt then the power issue wouldnt be an issue.

To each its own, I mean there are a LOT of different types of buyers out there. Some are performance consious others arent. The point is the RX8 at first really really appeals to all us performance consious buyers and its dissapointing to find out that car lacks power because the rest of the package is really good. So at a loss we cross it of our potential buying list (after a test drive) and look elsewhere and leave it to be baught by people who dont care to be smoked by all of the other cars in its segment and then some. Its really a close call. Maybe the aftermarket can help. If a good 20+ wheel hp increase to the RX8 is posible with intake and exhaust mods the car will regain respect and appeal to all of us power concious customers.

Also, I have to clear up that at least where I live, puerto rico, the RX8 costs about the same as a 350Z. close to US$ 40,000.

RedRX

First, let me say that I think this recent turn of events is really sad -- this is certainly not the kind of press Mazda (nor Mazdafiles) had hoped for with the return of the rotary. I'm also disappointed in Mazda, because I believe that Mazda was aware of this issue prior to stating the "official" hp numbers in their literature and releasing the car in the US -- perhaps this is why they were able to develop a response to the lack of hp issue so quickly.

The unrealistic hp rating also explains several things that have bothered me during the months leading up to the release of the RX8 in the States. First, is the following comment from Robert Davis, Sr. VP of Marketing and Product Development:

from Rotarynews:

Q: Again early on, the RENESIS was proposed as 287hp, the unofficial Japanese limit - the 300z etc 'competition' are still there, but the '8' falls short, why? Thanks, Ray.

A: "The RX-8 is not all about Horse Power. If your focus is strictly on that number, stick with the Z."

What an absurd answer. Perhaps Mr. Davis new something. I could go on for paragraphs about how assinine this comment is, but I'll spare everyone the diatribe.

Second is the beating the RX8 took on the straights in road race with other similarly priced and powered vehicles in Japan. As I recall, just about everything passed the RX8 in the straights, including the heavier, and lower powered Subaru WRX. This suggested to me that the RX8 wasn't making its advertised power. Of course, at the time, we all trusted Mazda, and everyone speculated that the car was maybe suffering from a sticking intake valve. Today, I think the results are conclusive. The RX8 was running correctly, but was simply outpowered.

Third, the apparently low hp of the NA Renesis explains why a future forced induction (Mazdaspeed) version of the RX8 is rumored at 300 hp. I always thought the 300 hp number seemed quite low for a car that made 250 hp NA. Turbocharging such a motor to 300 hp would probably require only 5 psig of boost. 300 hp out of an engine that makes about 210-215 NA hp seems reasonable, assuming that the car will run about 10 psig.

In sum, Mazda's speedy reply to the low hp issue, the comments from Mr. Davis, the results from road tests, and the 300 hp target for a Renesis with forced induction suggest that Mazda was aware of the hp issue before releasing the car in the US. Furthermore, I simply have to believe that Mazda knows how much power their cars really make.

In any case, this is not good news for Mazda nor the return of the rotary. Hopefully most buyers of the RX8 won't be bothered by the 238 rated (215 actual) flywheel hp numbers, but I fear that this may be wishful thinking.

Finally, rather than revising hp numbers, I'd prefer to see Mazda find the missing hp, although I don't see this happening until the release of the next model year, if at all.

FWIW,
-Dave

RX8Lover

I find this really amusing. All you people would rather have a 247 HP Rx-8 that can do 0-60 in 5.9 seconds, but you are bitching and moaning about a 238 HP RX-8 that can ALSO do 0-60 in 5.9 seconds.

The fact that the HP was rated wrong doesn't change the fact that the car can still do the same 0-60 and still get mid 14s in the 1/4 mile. There was even a guy on here that said he took his RX-8 to the track and got a 14.7s 1/4 mile.

Also, I find it amusing to hear that all this HP comparison to a dyno is relying on ONE person's test on a dyno. ONE. UNO. If we start hearing 10 people say that they are all getting this number, that's one thing. But again, it doesn't change the fact that, for you performance freaks, that the car still does the same 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, regardless of the HP rating.

Sneakyracer

Dave, good insight regarding the posibility that planning on introducing a turbocharged version of the rx8 engine at a later date they decided to build the engine ready for turbocharging which might have decreased its N/A performance.


Maybe Mazda can redeem themselves from the Miata and now the RX8 Lies by dropping the 184 whp renesis engine in a revised Miata chasis and advertise it right as a 215-228 hp sports car. If they can keep the weight down to say 2550lb the car would be an instant legend. RX7 maybe. Until then mazda, until then.

Sneakyracer

It doesnt, it wont, at least not consistently and certainly not here, permanently hot /humid.

P00Man

exactly...

and its not even that the engine cant make the power, just that the emissions programming wont allow it to
________
hairy Webcams

RX8Lover

Sucks for you.

nk_Rx8

That's a real low S2k figure. Every S2k dyno I have seen, including 3 friends' dynos, are all between 200-205whp.

nk_Rx8

One? Where have you been? there have been like 4 or 5 different dynos from different people. And I still doubt that the RX8 will consistent hit those numbers. Plus with the originals specs, many people thought it would be faster than that anyway. Sorry, the car is what it is and it isn't as fast as Mazda made it out to be.

Skyline Maniac

Dave, a Japanese magazine dynoed the JDM spec RX-8 Type S and achieved 201ps at the wheels. That's about 20% power loss but still acceptable number for a 250ps Renesis. I think it's the US emission laws that screwed us over. I don't know what the specs on the test mules are, but it's too early to say production RX-8 can achieve the 5.9s number that was obtained by one magazine with a pre-production car. We need some realistic drag strip numbers and definitive 0-60 on production RX-8 before making a blanket statement that the 238hp RX-8 is just as fast as the preproduction models. (Not that I doubt it, but it'd be more credible with some numbers. A 240hp Accord can do 0-60 in 5.9s, and the RX-8 weights less, so the RX should be able to get faster time) It would help to have a expert drag racer, since the high rpm power band on the RX makes it a hard car to launch. This might be a difficult task since most RX-8 enthusiasts are not drag fans, and wouldn't want to abuse the clutch just to get a time slip.

As other mentioned, RX-8 dynos were not isolated individuals but rather numberous individuals dynoed their cars at numberous locations that resulted in similar results. I remember reading some Mazda technician stating he had never seen a RX-8 breaking 190whp on the dynos.

There is an excellent link for all the JDM articles pertaining the RX-8. http://www.artex.co.jp/Pages/Car/RX-8/magazine/ Go through it and you will see many test results including acceleration, dyno and gas milage. Perhaps that would help.

Wing

??? Maybe where you are. But here, the RX8 cost me $43,000 CDN all incl (tax in etc).

The 350Z starts at $43,000! That's $50,000 + about 10K difference.

The g35 coupe is $55,000 K

The STI is $50K
The EV08 can't be had ... oh these 2 car as hideous looking.

The S2000 is $60k!


THat's a BIG difference, heck I could buy the RX8 and ANOTHER car for the prices differences!

Some people with lots of $$$$ are comparing them. But realistically the only 2 other cars I can compare to them (as price was a MAJOR deciding factor for me) was the Mazda 6 and Acura TSX.

The 8 doesn't REALLY compete in the same segment as the 350z and S2000 either, it's a sports sedan, although it handles like a true sports car I couldn't drive a 350z as my only car, not practical enough.

This car is different to a lot of people. Personally I think if your looking for an all out sports car the RX8 shouldn't even be on your list.

RedRX

In case my previous post wasn't clear, my point wasn't that I believe Mazda designed the Renesis for boost, and as a result sacrificed NA performance. Rather, I meant that getting 300 hp out of a motor that makes 250 ha NA is an extremely mild application of forced induction. 300 hp out of an engine that makes 215 hp NA seemed more reasonable, and consistent with the level of turbocharging used by other manufacturers.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the JDM dyno results. Were the JDM cars also tested on Dynojets?

Perhaps the high-revving nature of the Renesis leads to unusually large driveline losses, but 20% seems a little high. I believe that most RWD cars loose perhaps 12-17% of their power through the driveline. For example, third gens typically dyno about 225 RWHP, and assuming that they make the rated 255 FW HP, that's a loss of about 12%. If we also assume that the RX8 suffers from driveline losses similar to the RX7 (another rotary-powered RWD vehicle), we get about 209 hp for the US Renesis and 228 hp for the JDM model.

In any case, I do agree with your comment about getting some performance data from production RX8s. It will be interesting to see how the production vehicles fare.

No, I think I'd rather have an RX8 that really makes 247 FW HP, as advertised, and would therefore best 5.9 second 0-60 times, and be capable of consistent 14.5 second quarters at about 100 mph, even when driven by the average individual.

FWIW,
-Dave

pelucidor

Mazda should have taken the WORST result of the 11 cars they dynoed as the published figure, not the average (+5%?). I think 228 is what they should have claimed - even if some cars were higher it is better to promise less and deliver more (epecially after you've been caught once doing the reverse).

Skyline Maniac

Why isn't 250hp or 247hp a choice up there? Base on recent events, it seems like there are a few hard core fanatics who still believe the 247hp rating is more than fair.

XUrotaryrocket

Everyone just get the hell over it. It's done.

News flash !!!

Mazda has always done more with less.
1993 RX-7 spanked the competition with 255 bhp. This is up against the other Japanese supercars in excess of 300 bhp. AND, it also beat exotics around the tracks in testing.


The RX-8 does not need horsepower to sell. It was not intended to be as fast as a 7 or a Z. It also has everything an S2000 does not....... functionality.

Digisan

News flash, the 3rd gen TT 7 rated at 225 HP, puts down 220 HP at the wheels stock. That's only 14% driveline loss. I wouldn't call that more with less, I call it fairly rating the engine. Hell, it might even be underrated! Going from 14% driveline loss on the RX-7 to 25% driveline loss on the 8 is unexcuseable!

228 HP is a fair rating, not 238 HP

Sneakyracer

I agree. Also, its relevant to point out that a third gen RX7 is close to 200lb Lighter than an RX8. thats very significant in performance.

Quick_lude

I also voted 228. There is no way that a 239 crank hp dynoes at around 180whp. Especially since the rotary driveline should have less power loss over a piston one? Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.
I'm curious if a car with a JDM ECU map would pass North American emissions?

nk_Rx8

I voted 228 also. There is no way it loses that much in the drivetrain. I may still buy one in the future, but there is no way in hell that I am paying anywhere new MSRP anymore. Cost to value has changed for me - especially since I don't know if I trust anything they said about anything else.

nk_Rx8

I voted 228 also. There is no way it loses that much in the drivetrain. I may still buy one in the future, but there is no way in hell that I am paying anywhere new MSRP anymore. Cost to value has changed for me - especially since I don't know if I trust anything they said about anything else.

RX8-U-UP

digisan wrote
"News flash, the 3rd gen TT 7 rated at 225 HP, puts down 220 HP at the wheels stock. That's only 14% driveline loss. "

News flash, digisan don't know digi. 225 - 220 = 5, 225/5 = 2.2, 2.2 is bull.

Digisan need to check his digi some.

Digisan

Typo, any rotor head knows it's rated at 255 HP.