IGN1a Coil Discussion Thread - Page 4 - RX8Club.com



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Old 03-12-2017, 06:44 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by dannobre View Post
You will have no issues.....You can play with the dwell a bit as well

Just run larger power and ground wires to a dedicated power circuit and the triggers will work perfectly. You can use the stock power wire as a trigger for a relay and it makes that simple. Unless you really see wanting to go back to stock coils in the future I would just rewire the triggers to a 4 port plug and get rid of the rest of the stock wiring. Or leave it and run standalone trigger wires from the Adaptronic ( my preference)

Both the stock grounds and the power wires are way too small for the current the IGN1a coils draw
These coils need to be wired for direct power, ground, and sensor ground. The stock wiring is wayyyyyy undersized for these or even LS coils. We have a full plug and play harness available here: RX8 IGN-1A Smart Coil Plug & Play Mil-Spec Harness Adapter

or full kit with plug wires and mount plus coils here: IGN-1A High Performance Ignition System (SE3P RX8, LHD Mount) - SakeBomb Garage LLC

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Old 03-12-2017, 08:00 PM   #77
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Thanks.

I had a bit of time spare so wrote a longish summary of my thoughts only to then find this that didn't come up in my search here. Although it's not Adaptronic-specific, it pretty well answers all my questions.

Using a 4-pin plug for the trigger wires is a good idea, and the Adaptronic pin-out guide suggests the trigger wires at the coils go direct to the Adaptronic. I'll use a 5-pin as I'll include a trigger earth. A plug would also allow me to have a neat wire extension if I positioned the coils away from their current location to reduce heat build-up.
Hi Ian,

Just a little heads up for you, although I had read that your RX-8 R3 already has a 13B-REW engine swap, so I do not think that this will affect you at all; however, I did want to bring to your attention that I had been working together with Heath from Sakebomb Garage, and the existing ignition coil kit bracket only fit well on a Series 1 RX-8. There are a lot of changes to the engine bay area that forced me to make some major modifications on the existing bracket ( I had originally installed this kit on my 2004 RX-8 ) in order for it to fit properly.

Like I said before, though, I do not think that this will affect you, because if your R3 already has a 13B-REW engine swap, then most likely you will not experience any fitment problems.
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Old 03-13-2017, 03:46 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by SBGarage View Post
The stock wiring is wayyyyyy undersized for these or even LS coils.
Please explain what you mean by this exactly? IIRC the D585's draw like 7amps at most. I'm not sure on the wires but from memory I would say the wires are least a 12AWG which should handle that just fine. I'm just curious since my 13 year old wiring harness has been running my D585's (not LS coils) for coming up on 8 years.
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:19 PM   #79
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Please explain what you mean by this exactly? IIRC the D585's draw like 7amps at most. I'm not sure on the wires but from memory I would say the wires are least a 12AWG which should handle that just fine. I'm just curious since my 13 year old wiring harness has been running my D585's (not LS coils) for coming up on 8 years.
The wires are 12 gauge? Or 20 gauge? That's an important distinction. 1000% they're not 12 gauge wires . We use a 12 gauge to supply ALL of the coils on our standalone wiring harness kit which is rated for 40 amps. But you know, no one knows better than Mazda right... I'm sure you've kept your car stock for a reason.

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RX8 IGN-1A Smart Coil Plug & Play Mil-Spec Harness Adapter
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:48 PM   #80
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I guess those of us running D585's have just been lucky all these years.
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:22 PM   #81
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I guess those of us running D585's have just been lucky all these years.
More like "ticking time bomb".... haven't you heard?
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:50 PM   #82
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If I remember correctly, in order to handle 40amp and up you WILL have to go up to 8 gauge or greater, 12AWG is usually rated for 20 or below, obviously based on mats and strands. Now, if you are using a single strand 12awg, then 40 amps is possible, stupid but possible.
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:01 PM   #83
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So would anyone like to guess the ACTUAL GAUGE of the stock wiring that everyone is so happy to plug right into?
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:03 PM   #84
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I guess those of us running D585's have just been lucky all these years.
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Old 04-20-2017, 09:26 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by SBGarage View Post
So would anyone like to guess the ACTUAL GAUGE of the stock wiring that everyone is so happy to plug right into?

LOL. It I recall it's 18ga. might be 16....

18ga is good for 16Amps for chassis wiring
16ga is good for 22Amps
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:23 AM   #86
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Anyone care to explain why a theoretical problem has yet to evidence itself in the past 8+ years and thousands upon thousands of D585-based ignition systems for the RX-8?
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:46 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Charles R. Hill View Post
Anyone care to explain why a theoretical problem has yet to evidence itself in the past 8+ years and thousands upon thousands of D585-based ignition systems for the RX-8?

Cause it isn't as big a problem for the D585 coils.

They draw less current. And without any need for the increased output on 99% of the cars .....it's like the old "if a tree falls in the forrest" 😎
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:41 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by dannobre View Post
Cause it isn't as big a problem for the D585 coils.

They draw less current. And without any need for the increased output on 99% of the cars .....it's like the old "if a tree falls in the forrest" 😎
Heath here is clearly trying to insinuate that a problem looms, as he has been for quite some time already.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:50 PM   #89
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Heath here is clearly trying to insinuate that a problem looms, as he has been for quite some time already.

Personally I would run a new power and ground sup ply to them if I was running anything over stock power where a missfire can be fatal.

I think as time goes on there will likely be more issues as the harnesses get older and more brittle. It's like the FD's and older RX-7's have tons of electrical issues.

Might be a good upgrade harness design to add to the offerings in the future
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:35 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by dannobre View Post
Personally I would run a new power and ground sup ply to them if I was running anything over stock power where a missfire can be fatal.

I think as time goes on there will likely be more issues as the harnesses get older and more brittle. It's like the FD's and older RX-7's have tons of electrical issues.

Might be a good upgrade harness design to add to the offerings in the future
As regards the OEM harness, I agree and have seen more brittled harnesses on the internet lately, but the price of the factory replacement engine harness is difficult to compete with.
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:26 AM   #91
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I would just like to add some numbers for consideration, based on my calculations. I know that theory and practice may differ in important details, but certainly the practice cannot violate the laws of physics (only I can screw up the calculations). I do run my car using BHR ignition and a dwell table based on those calculations, and cannot really complain.

I designed my tables based on the fact that the D585 coils self-trigger at approx 8.4 Amps. I use dwell times so as to limit the maximum current to 7.5 Amps to have a safe margin and remain in control of the ignition. So if you only take peak currents, I'm looking at 30 Amps peak, but only for a rather short amount of time.

The current flows through the coil only during the dwell time and increases exponentially with a time constant determined on the coils resistance and inductance. The necessary dwell time depends also on voltage you can supply.
The point is, at 14 Volts, I can reach the 7.5 Amps in 4.15 ms of dwell time. At 9000 rpms, 4.15 ms corresponds to 62% duty cycle (at 1000 rpms, it would be 7%), so even if the peak current of 7.5 Amps was flowing through the coil for the whole dwell time, it would still be only 4.67 Amps on average.

If you actually take into account that the current increases from zero to the peak along the exponential (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...mgele/indt.gif), the average current at 14V and 9000 rpms with a dwell of 4.15 ms is 1.4 Amps (and 0.15 Amps at 1000 rpms). I have limited my dwell times to 2 Amps maximum average current, which is only seen at lower voltages (below 12 Volts) and towards lower rpms. The highest I have for normal voltages (such as 12.75 Volts) is 1.79 Amps with 4.79ms dwell at 9000 rpms.

That's for one coil of course. For 4 coils, the average current they draw at 14 Volts and 9000 rpms is about 5.2 Amps, even though for a very short time before firing, they peak at 30 Amps.

BTW, that only holds if you use custom, more aggressive dwell tables. TeamRX8's tables had a max average current of 1.9 Amps at 14 Volts with 4.71ms dwell at 9000 rpms (peak 8.15 Amps), and Oltmann's had 0.73 Amps with 3.20ms dwell at 9000 rpms (peak 6.25 Amps, but 7.51 Amps at 1000 rpms). MazdaManiac's dwell tables were at 0.31 Amps with 2.32ms dwell at 9000 rpms (peak 4.87 Amps, but 9.80! Amps at 1000 rpms which would mean the coils self-trigger).

I don't have all the info for stock coils (apart from there being a dwell time of 1.54 ms at 14 Volts and 9000 rpms), because I don't have a model of the coil (resistance and inductance). For the D585, I approximated the model (the time constant) based on some oscilloscope snapshots I found on the web.

In the end, even if you size the wires for maximum current, I think that the average current reflects the kind of load the wires are subjected to from the thermal perspective. Could this be the explanation why the stock wires apparently work fine over the years?
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