Rotor Rocket

got this in the mail about two months ago after speaking with customer service that I had heard that there was a new procedure to follow for flooded engines. what caught my attention was the part about checking the oil and not to use synthetic oil.

My dealer mechanic told me that although synthetic oil is great for conventional engines, the problem is that the rotary engine injects a very small amount of oil to lubricate the apex seals, and that synthetic oil doesn't burn off completely due to it's formulation and ingredients, which is great for conventional engines, but may slowly clog the cat converter and pose problems in the future.

Gomez

As I posted in your Tech Garage thread, nothing new with regards to oil type in there. A search here on synthetic oil use in Renesis engines will score you a heap of hits. It's worth the time to educate yourself this way, I suggest.

yiksing

Yes, we all heard the synthetic oil having higher flash point, don't burnt as clean, etc. Maybe you can do all of us a favor and asked your mechanic specifically why it doesn't burn as clean, honestly I'm not being sarcastic here... I want to know whether its just the higher flash point causing this unclean burn. If it really is the main reason, wouldn't a trip to the redline solve this problem?

Rotor Rocket

well, the way i understood my mechanic, synthetic was designed not to break down under extreme conditions, and, since oil is not injected into piston engines, it doesn't affect a cat with a piston engine the way it could affect a cat with a rotary engine. it seems that current quality dino oil is good enough for rotaries. a trip to redline is good for all internal combustion engines to blow out carbon, but that's not the way we can drive all the time. at the end of the day, I go with the factory recommendations. Why would they try to decieve us, or am i missing something here.

yiksing

I followed this synthetic oil discussion for a while now, read a few hundred threads in BITOG forum. The consistency I found regarding the bad points of synthetic is:

1. Doesn't burn as good due to higher flash point.
2. Seal compatability.

The part where synthetic was designed not to break down under extreme conditions is (assumption I made) only applicable if the oil is not directly involved in combustion. So it doesn't break down in the crankcase under extreme conditions. However if sprayed into the combustion chamber, there's no doubt that it will burn since it even burns by lighting it with a match.

The argument then turns to "synthetic oil doesn't burn completely", assuming that this is true then it means carbon will buildup but we all know a trip to redline once in a while will get rid of it. Conclusion I draw on this is I won't have problems with unburnt synthetic oil if I redline once in a while.

Regarding seal compatability, I think Gomez posted this a while ago (see attachment).

Best way to protect the engine, run a separate reservoir with 2 stroke oil by modifying the oil metering pump and use synthetic oil for the crankcase. No dirty oil to be injected in combustion chamber and extended mileage before oil drain. I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a bolt-on kit for this since I'm an idiot when it comes to modding.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

what is your insistance with this double post?????

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/mazda-does-not-recommend-synthetic-oil-rx-8-a-88234/

the answers or resposes were not enough???

beers

swoope

iTrader: (5)

who is said mechanic???

what is his role. what dealership???? my brothers sister knew someone that said that rotary can hydro lock with a outside intake in the rain.

sorry to doubt, but we have dealt with this before.

beers

Gomez

Yes, that is my bulletin. I got it from my dealers service manager a month or so after I took delivery. For 12 months after that I held the opinion that synthetic shouldn't be used.

I researched on BITOG and read reviews by RG and others here and on the RX-7 forum, then formed an opinion that a good synthetic is AOK.

yiksing

That's what I concluded as well but to be on a safe side, I think its best that there is a poll to list down the compatible synthetics. Who knows maybe its just a certain ingredients that's causing seal failure. What do you think? There's only three brands of synthetic I can get namely Shell, Mobil 1 and Castrol, I'm sure the Royal Purple and Idemitsu are fully compatible. I read a thread about the one who design the rotary engine doesn't like Mobil 1 but it happens to be my favourite.

Rotor Rocket

in speaking with the powers that be at mazda U.S.about two years ago re synthetic oil, that person told me that the last time Mazda tested synthetic oils, they encountered problems as i described earlier. Based on the fact that at the time of our conversation, mazda had not tested the current crop of synthetics, they felt it appropriate not to recommend synthetics. I was told that if they get around to testing again, that if things were to change, they would make mention of that fact. i guess that mazda has not done tests since my conversation, and that accounts for why they aren't recommending synthetics in their current booklets.Everyone can use what they want. i go with what is published in the factory booklets/updates until i read different.

yiksing

Exactly, we have to decide for ourselves what to use. If only Mazda would tell us which specific ingredient is destroying the o-rings material, I think they are not allowed or don't want to say which brand is bad.

Gomez

Now the $64 question.

How high up the rotary tree is your "powers that be" expert? Is he in the rotary tree?

yiksing

Most likely weeds... haha

Rotor Rocket

the person who deals with RX-8 at MNAO in Irvine, CA., and it's not that the seals were going bad at that time, it was that the cats could get "clogged" prematurely. Again, this was my conversation two years ago, and nothing has changed in print from MNAO since then, so I wish to not use synthetics.

yiksing

You should do a search on why cats failed. I've only heard of clogged cats due to premix, even that is debatable.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

so i guess you missed the whole rotary revoloutin and everything that followed it. and the threads about syn oil...

you NEW COMMENTS with your 14 posts here are based on 2 yr old info....

i would say you need to search.... some of the higher ups at mazda dont have issues with syn oil... made comment about mobile 1 not in a good way.

but other then that syn was just fine...

beers

swoope

iTrader: (5)

almost all the cat issues were due to flooding.. many at the ports..

beers

Rotor Rocket

I had a brand new OMC 2 cycle outboard engine some years ago, and the in-house mechanic told me to use 25:1 mixture for the first 5 or 10 hours or something like that, as oppossed to the 50:1 ratio that the user manual suggested. Being an engineer type, I called OMC and asked them what their thoughts were. They told me that using a 25:1 ratio was an old wive's tale break-in idea, and that it was actually bad for the new engine because the lower friction between the piston and the cylinder wall using a 25:1 ratio did not allow for a proper heat transfer process needed to seat the piston rings in a new engine.

So much for listening to other than the factory.

Now some people are talking about pre-mix in a current rotary?

What's next, WD-40 or something?

swoope

iTrader: (5)

wow,
your point is???? so two years ago someone told you something, and now we are onto 2 stoke boat motors... so you believe everything you hear, and post it....

in 2 places, why... i got an idea!!!! you stay with whaaaatever oil you use... read all the posts about the other ideas...

then get back to us....

what is next is, you saying a friend at mazda reccomends wd40 and no one will catch it....

beers

Rotor Rocket

the boat stuff came about because I found some stuff about using premix in the "cumulative synthetic oil forum" a few minutes ago, saying that that it is a good idea for rotaries. read for yourself.

i post documented publications from mazda, not personal opinions. although i last spoke to mazda two years ago, their latest booklet still states not to use synthetics. go figure

swoope

iTrader: (5)

your personal info dates 2 years back.. the boat stuff has nothing to do with anything. mazda says in that one place not to ADD syn oil... i will skip all the stuff in the owners manual that give the req. for the oil to be used....

so your buddy in li ny is into boats??? did you get your seat fixed??? mildew not a problem...

so your point is????

beers

Rotor Rocket

Good morning to all

1. no, i haven't got my seat fixed yet. I stuff a towel between the seat and the center console.

2. my reply to someone's post re. mildew contained a TSB from Mazda courtesy of our friends at Rosenthal Mazda. it's still there under Bulletins for RX-8s. It's official, from mazda MNAO, not my opnion.

3. I post stuff from mazda that other people have copies as well re syn oil. The '04 owner's manual does not caution about synthetic oil, but the updates do mention it. YOU show me where mazda says to use it. use whatever you want. i will speak with my contact at MNAO in the near future and post in this forum that person's current view of synthetics for renesis engines at that time. Until then, there's not much else for me to say.

I think i've made and documented my point(s) and have not mislead anyone as you have seen from my previous posts.

Skythe

I'd like to make a motion for a thread hijack....based upon the preponderonce of this supposition, which is as follows: how is it that someone decided to make another pointless oil thread, even when he was told his or her first one was and is pointless?

Will anyone second this?

Rotor Rocket

swope,

I saw your post in the rx8 tech garage forum. You quoted a post from rotary god dated 2005. I have told you that i got this info from mazda 2 years ago, 2004.

I qoute from RG's post.

"Now onto Mazda's position on synthetics since I know that the opinion of the smartest rotary person in the U.S. isn't good enough for some people. As I stated earlier, I asked the head of rotary engine development for the past 30 years at Mazda. He designed and built the 787B engine too. In very broken english he told me that not all synthetics are created equal. some are better than others when it comes to mixing with fuel in the oil metering system. The oil metering system is the key. It is NOT with swelling seals. He said that because some oils work very well and others not as well, it is far easier to just officially say not to use them than to say which ones to use and not to"

My statement said exactly the same thing.

I quote

"in speaking with the powers that be at mazda U.S.about two years ago re synthetic oil, that person told me that the last time Mazda tested synthetic oils, they encountered problems as i described earlier. Based on the fact that at the time of our conversation, mazda had not tested the current crop of synthetics, they felt it appropriate not to recommend synthetics. I was told that if they get around to testing again, that if things were to change, they would make mention of that fact. i guess that mazda has not done tests since my conversation, and that accounts for why they aren't recommending synthetics in their current booklets.Everyone can use what they want. i go with what is published in the factory booklets/updates until i read different."

So here's the point swope:

I got this stuff two years ago, and it's from a higher up than RG's source, but, I never treated anyone in this forum in the manner that you have . You also, RG.

Case closed!

T-von

I still can't believe that after all these years Mazda is still saying stay away from synthetics. The oils formulation has changed considerably from back in the old days. Mazda really needs to update their testing procedures.