scuba steve

I'm Just spit-balling here but wouldn't a hybrid version of the RX-8 be a "coup" for Mazda?

A smart hybrid solution would solve the the "low-torque" and "low M.P.G." accusations that have been hurled against the 8?

If the weight could be kept down within reason and perfect weight distribution not thrown off too much...

Imagine an RX-8 with 30 M.P.G. and 200+ lb. ft of torque from low R.P.M.s...with unmatched handling, unsacrificed appearance a hybrid RX-8 might just be the last, best hope for mankind...

Old Rotor

Have you seen this RE car....

http://www.mazda.com/publicity/relea...7/060727b.html

http://www.mazda.com/publicity/relea...06/080620.html

belltower

I know I've mentioned the idea before. You could even have a system that works without the engine on, so you don't have the flooding risk if you just need to move the car a few feet.

The hydrogen-powered RE has half the horses of the gasoline powered one, so unless a new cheap way to produce hydrogen is developed, it's only really useful for engines where you want to avoid fumes on-site.

champi0n

iTrader: (1)

the rx8 rotary is a great platform for use of internal hydrogen combustion (not the use of batteries or electric motor crap)

hydrogen is cheaper to produce then refining gasoline.

internal combustion of other fuels is the natural process of evolution and would be supported in the marketplace. Infrastructure isn't a huge issue as one might say, because hydrogen can be made on site with no need for transportation or pipelines.

while a dual fuel hybrid is viable to keep your high power gasoline when you want, and the lower power hydrogen when you want mpg...

you can also use hydrogen as a catalyst to help burn bio fuels put into your existing fuel tank. Extending the range of the rx8 to well over 600 miles for roughly $30 per fillup. While power output is obviously lower due to the nature of combustion.

While i would prefer the current hybrid solution mazda has with switching from gasoline to hydrogen in my rx8

but check this out

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=fCI4WuCpZPE

ps his carbon tank is huge but u can get better ones

Endor

ps: Hydrogen is an inefficient fuel source compared to gasoline, diesel, or batteries.

belltower

Through what method? Currently commercially produced hydrogen is made mostly from natural gas. If you had greatly excess free electricity production (through wind/waves/solar/nukes/etc) you could use electrolysis, or if you can reproduce the hydrogen-producing algae one biochemist once made, you might be able to make hydrogen cheaply. But without that, it's a very expensive fuel.

Meanwhile, electric motors and supercapacitors or batteries are available today, even in race-proven form (Toyota Supra H-VR.) With the RX-8 being RWD, you could put electric motors on the front wheels and have AWD traction at low speeds.

champi0n

iTrader: (1)

it's cheaper thru any means to produce and can range from 1 dollar per gallon up to 3 dollars per gallon

Biofuels (the type commonly used in diesel engines) cost roughly 50 cents per gallon to 1 dollar per gallon on small scale production.

at one point the gge equivalent of hydrogen WAS "expensive" only for the fact it cost more than gasoline... now it doesn't. And also consider hydrogen isn't produced on a large scale compared to gasoline. (While billions of pounds of hydrogen are being produced yearly... its small scale in comparison).

Hydrogen would naturally drop in price when production is boosted. The price would stay relatively stable.

While yes electric motors and batteries are available... they are costly, heavy, and cannot be easily converted for use on existing cars. Way too many problems with batteries for it to become accepted compared to internal combustion of some other fuel (either straight hydrogen or a mix of hydrogen and low octane fuel source)

From a performance stand point... renewable alcohol fuels perhaps.

When price of gasoline goes up to over $250 a barrel.. then what? We're almost at 200 now.

belltower

Is hydrogen really sold by the gallon? Regardless, it has much less energy density per unit volume than gasoline, so that price isn't directly comparable. And since it is generally derived from hydrocarbons, unless you have an alternative method of producing it, the cost per BTU will have to be higher than the cost of the hydrocarbon fossil fuel. (Perhaps a system using coal as an energy but not hydrogen source would work, and coal is relatively cheap per BTU.)

There's quite a lot used already. We're not talking hand-crafted stuff. And the price would be affected greatly by energy costs. My price per kilowatt went up 75% recently.

It really is simpler than arguing specific facts, though; hydrogen cars do not exist in the marketplace, hybrids do (making your remarks about batteries seem a bit bizzare.) While a retrofit might not be simple, there are a number of vehicles that have regular and hybrid versions, so it needn't change the vehicle that drastically.

Biofuels on the cheap come because restaurants are generally discarding their used oil. There's not enough of a supply for this to power the masses, you'll have to have a real source, and that will radically raise the price. (See ethanol.)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hype_about_Hydrogen

Raptor75

The Rx-8 would be a great fit for a hybrid electric, it is at idling and stop and go driving that really kill the rotary and a electric assist would resolve both these issues. The trick would be keeping down the weight.

Hydrogen is a stupid idea for an internal combustion engine! You would need 3 times the volume of the present gas tank to get the same range and would enjoy about 60% the power of the gas version. The hydrogen has to be stored in heavy high pressure tanks. There is no infrastructure to distribute hydrogen and piston internal combustion engines don't run well on hydrogen so there is no incentive to build and infrastructure.

Socket7

+1

Hydrogen is for fuel cells not engines, but it's nice to know that you will still be able to run your antique personal vehicles once the hydrogen economy is in full swing.

We are already working on more efficient hydrogen storage then pressurized tanks. I remember seeing something about a metal that can absorb significant amounts of hydrogen and be released in a controlled manner without the need for high pressure tanks.

mikesol

I see the salvation of our vehicle-loving culture coming from hydrogen. The Three Step Simple Mikesol Solution is as follows:

1. Start building more power plants that use clean energy sources. Nuclear and hydroelectric are great; wind and solar as efficiencies and geography allow.

2. Produce a super-high-throughput electrolysis machine the size of 1/4th of a shipping container, sealed unit, zero maintenance. Water and electricity hookup on one side, hydrogren out on the other. Install at all gas stations. Get a government subsidy to help pay for it.

3. Produce a crapload of different vehicles utilizing hydrogen. Hydrogen Rotary for us, Hydrogen-Gasoline like in that experimental BMW 7-series for some, and fuel-cells driving electrical motors for others.

That's it. When you have fuel around that will get you the same distance with the same performance for half the price, people will flock to hydrogen; and it's only going to get cheaper.

Save the oil for making non-biodegradable plastic, damnit! I need my tupperware!

04RX8man

I still believe(not only about this thread but about everythign) internal combustion engines will never not b used it just won't no matter what the gas prices are

Icemark

Sodium Hydride storage tanks can store Hydrogen with much more effectiveness and little chance of leakage during an accident.

BTW:
A pound of Hydrogen contains around 61,000 BTUs in it. For comparison, a pound of regular gasoline only contains around 20,500 BTUs in it. So Hydrogen is a less than perfect fuel, but probably a better source than bio fuels (which currently use more BTUs to make and grow than they produce).

belltower

In the long run, you may be right (though some super capacitor research may make electricity even more viable instead.) But our RX-8s will be museum pieces, or at least classic cars, by then.

A hybrid -8 could exist as a practical reality within a year.

champi0n

iTrader: (1)

i don't think people understand... when we need to switch to alternate fuels, it's not as simple as everyone buying a new hybrid car... that wont happen. That transition would take 20+ years. Batteries continue to remain expensive, fragile (dont drive on bumpy roads), heavy, and have the same range or less compared to a tank of hydrogen.

the switch will be done with conversion kits... and will not be electric or battery powered for the most part. (the option will be there i'm sure... but the most cost efficient solution is internal combustion conversions).

Gasoline will eventually be non-existent. (not likely in our lifetime).

Hydrogen doesn't have to be run as a pure energy source and can be mixed with other fuels to give you a better range and more power.

There are piston engines running out there on hydrogen/water (steam powered).

Infrastructure is a moot point, as hydrogen production via electrolysis can easily be done on site and would reduce the cost of laying pipelines and transportation trucks... making it worth the cost to have on site production.

Renesis07

iTrader: (1)

I accept that I get 17mpg.

Raptor75

The problem is in the volume each takes to store. You need around 3 times the volume for the same range as gasoline. lbs for lbs, as you pointed out, hydrogen is better.

Icemark

But yes, you are correct that a gallon of Hydrogen needs considerably more room than gasoline...

A gallon of gasoline weighs around 6 pounds (and has 126,000 Btus of energy in it).

A gallon of hydrogen only contains around 40 Btus in it.

How that translates to an automobile is that instead of a two cubic foot gasoline tank (15 gallons) in your car, you would need a tank more than 3,000 times bigger, over 6,000 cubic feet, for the equivalent Hydrogen.

Now with the experimental Sodium Hydride storage tanks, you can actually get down to about a 3 cubic foot tank for Hydrogen and get about 150-200 MPT (Miles per tank)... making them reasonable for storage (heck there are members here that don't get 200 MPT), but the fueling requirements go up pretty radical as most people in the US are not capable of dealing the the pressure involved and paying attention while fueling to that pressure.

So Hydrogen is less than perfect for our uses, but it is a step in the right direction.

I think personally that Microbe based fuels will be the way to go, with hydrogen only being a short term stepping stone or interesting foot note.

Raptor75

Plain wrong!

The storage volume and weight of hydrogen will make it impractical with internal combustion engines...period. They are to inefficient. You will not see Hydrogen as a real alternative until the fuel cell is perfected which is in the order of 3 times more efficient then an internal combustion engine.

Honda is already running a consumer fuel cell car in California and most major manufactures are working on similar vehicles. Are any major car manufactures making plans for hydrogen internal combustion vehicles.....None. The closest you get is Mazda with the rotary which is more a PR trick then a vehicle with a real possibility of production.

Also in regards to your comment about batteries being to fragile for a car, do me a favor and look under the hood of your car.....see that funny looking black box with the 2 big wires running to it....it's called a battery. They've been in cars for over 70 years and have a pretty good reputation for reliability, even on bumpy roads.

Icemark

actually BMW has been leasing to selected BMW owners a Hydrogen powered 7 series for about a year now in So Cal and New York. http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...sTNlAXDAkk1+s=

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2006/11/72100

Mazda also has had some fleet leases for the 5 in Hydrogen form.

So Cal and a few places on the east coast are the only places set up for refueling, so it is hard to sell your products anywhere else than there, hence people think they don't exist.

and the other issue is that Hydrogen is primarily produced from natural gas, in a process that generates more CO2 than gasoline car engines. It is much more expensive to create it from ripping H2O (and uses just about the same amount of energy to rip it than what you get from burning the Hydrogen) than distilling it from natural gas.

champi0n

iTrader: (1)

You do know hydrogen burns more efficiently then gasoline right? (No im not saying more power)

storage volume and weight of hydrogen compared to a fuel cell or even electric car? LOL

while sure you have to pressurize hydrogen to store any feasible amount... you're missing the point of converting existing cars to run on alternative fuels.

and im talking about batteries used in electric cars... the materials are DIFFERENT then those used in regular car batteries. if they made the batteries the same as whats under the hood now, cars would weigh more then a freight train.

Anyways... there will be no replacement for the internal combustion engine, just modifications for it to run on different fuels... i'm sure as i said before, the majority of the driving public will not want to have battery cars with 1/2 the range in winter, a 8 hour "fillup" time, and the inability to travel any type of distance without stopping for another 8 hours to charge up.

And i'd hate to have to replace the huge battery in an electric car every 5 years or 100k... damn...

belltower

Indeed. All those Priuses you see on the road? They're an illusion. The owners drive them about 10 miles on the smoothest roads possible and then have to change the battery.

And the plug-in Prius coming soon, and the Volt? It'll be like "The Emperor's New Clothes", they won't really be there, but everyone will pretend like they are so people won't think they're an idiot.

Raptor75

OK put down the crack pipe and push away from the keyboard. Your lack of knowledge on several of your points is almost criminal. see below.

These are are on the road right now and will only get better as the technology progresses. Strike 1.

Converting the present fleet of cars is just plain asinine for all reasons previously mentioned not to mention cost, reliability, safety, etc... Strike 2.

GM had an electric vehicle on the road a few years back using lead acid batteries and the owners loved them. Range was limited but they were a day to day car and that worked and guess what they didn't have a caboose

You do realise that there are now batteries in prototype phases that can recharge 85% of their charge in under 1 minute and 100% in 3 minutes. Not to mention far superior resistance to the lose of charge in typical winter environments. So your vision of the future is at best naive. Also as has been stated the ultimate goal will be fuel cells that run on hydrogen. They will have the range, power, efficiency and emissions to fill our future needs.

These batteries are already on the road with 10 year warranty in the various hybrids which are in production. They are also projecting battery replacement costs to be a quarter of what they are today when these packs do need replacing by means ramped up mass production. Strike 3, your out.

jaderain

Yeah, I've thought about this as well. First, you have to keep the weight down--I love the fact that my RX weighs less than 3000 lbs! (I have the sport with no options). So in order to deal with the battery and other assorted hardware, we would probably have to look to the next RX-7 so we could cut out the seats and trunk and GT options to make up the weight. I'm really excited to see another RX-7, but I have two children, and the RX-8 really suits my driving needs. I'm a good driver, but I don't think I'll ever be pushing my car to the levels that it can take, so I certainly don't need something more radical than what I have now. Also, there is no way that Mazda is selling enough of these cars to justify the hybrid, look at Honda dropping the Accord hybrid. BUT, it is fun to think about isn't it? You are right, it would make this superb car PERFECT. Better mileage and more torque with what we have now? fohrgetabudit!! cheers

belltower

Indeed. With gas being so expensive now, using more esoteric (or at least more expensive) materials to build vehicles makes more and more sense. I'd love to see more aluminum, carbon fiber, fiberglass, titanium, etc. used. That might give a better payoff than going hybrid, esp. when you see the Elise getting sub-5 second 0-60 times but mileage in the high 20s. Any thoughts on what would be some good places for the RX-8 to lose weight without losing function?