MEGAREDS

EDIT: This thread has been superceded by a subsequent thread... Got My Letter: Flooding Covered Under Warranty!.

My car was towed last week. Due to the holiday, it was not until today that it was repaired (6 days). My dealership called today and told me that Mazda would not cover the deflooding under the warranty. This was contrary to what several people on this thread reported, so I called Mazda. After waiting 20 or so minutes on hold, they took my call and told me that they would cover it. I was very pleased, as you can imagine. When I came to pick up my car tonight, however, here is what my invoice said, right over the signature line:

CUSTOMER STATES THE CAR CRANKS AND DOES NOT START.
TOWED IN
FLOODED
R&R PLUGS AND CLEAN, DEFLOOD VEHICLE, CLEAR CODES AND TEST DRIVE
ONE TIME GOODWILL PER MAZDA. CUSTOMER WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY FUTURE FLOODING CONDITIONS. PROCEDURES FOR STARTING AND RUNNING VEHICLE ARE DETAILED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL
GO102XRX .4 .9

TOTAL INVOICE: $0

The comment that the "procedures for starting and running vehicle are detailed in the owners manual" is just not true; the procedure for short trips is in the brochure that was delivered with the car, not in the manual. Also, I followed the Emergency Start Procedure on page 7-20 of my manual to the letter. It simply did not work.

The service manager told me that deflooding would have been approximately $150 had it not been picked up by Mazda. When I asked about whether the tow would be free if needed it again, he said, "probably." When I asked if there had been other defloods, he said "not really, no." I want to, but just don't believe him.

When I asked about the possibility of the hotter spark plugs for the leading side as a remedy to flooding (part No. "RE6A-L" is apparently available to reduce the chance of fouling the plugs for "those who drive their car at very low speed"), he told me that I probably didn't need the plugs and that I was lucky because "they are like $50 each." I pointed out that this would be a bargain compaired to another 6 days without the car and being stranded down-state, where I occassionally have to travel.

"Houston, we have a problem..." Mazda did not tell me it was a one-time goodwill fix when I spoke to them on the phone... they told me "we'll cover it." I followed the manual information - it did not work. With so many others thinking that the defloods are covered, I think we need better clarification on this. I think Mazda is encouraging the ambiguity here... I doubt most people would have even read the repair receipt considering the big "NO CHARGE" at the bottom.

Please understand... I'm not saying that they must cover it. I'm only saying they need to be more up front. Putting it on the invoice over the signature line as a way of informing me of the nature of the repair is slimy. It's exactly what a lawyer would do that wanted to minimize the issue but hold it over customers later... the better approach would be to craft an open policy.

Please pass it on... deflooding is currently not covered by Mazda.

sferrett

I think the dealer is trying to bully you. Take it up with whoever you were talking to's boss/supervisor or call Mazda back and tell 'em your dealer is trying to bully you around.

If I saw a clause like that on an invoice I was going to sign, I would strike it out, initial where I struck out the clause and then sign it.

BillK

This is totally unacceptable.

What happens if you accidentally stall your car when it's cold? Instant flood, and you're stuck wherever - in a parking lot, in an intersection, who knows.

I suspect if everyone who experiences the problem complains to NHTSA, a recall will be forthcoming, further damaging the image of both Mazda and the 8. If that happens it's their own fault, IMHO.

Until the flooding issues, the S-Plan pricing had proven to be just too good and I was about ready to sign on the dotted line, but this isn't like the HP non-issue; this is a serious problem as I've been driving stick for over 20 years now and still will accidentally stall my car every now and then; if any one of these resulted in a flooding situation, I'd be in the mood to dump the car the next day. Fun is fun; being stranded at 3:00 AM in the middle of nowhere because of a bad 1st gear start is unacceptable in a car built in 2004, my love for all things rotary notwithstanding...

MEGAREDS

Very possibly. Can others that have had a dealer service their flooded car check their invoices and post the info here. I'm going to take this up with Mazda unless I discover that Mazda has been uniform in the apparent policy, "CUSTOMER WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY FUTURE FLOODING CONDITIONS." As I said, I don't think one-time-for-free would necessarily be an unfair policy, it just needs to be disclosed and universally applied so that those considering buying the car can make an informed decision.

One more thing... thanks to everyone on this board that helped me work through my flooding problem and provided helpful and useful inforamation. You guys are the best!

WHealy

Does seem strange. Perhapse Mazda is telling the dealers they will cover it or only paying them a fraction of the cost? Hence the wording.

At least you got her back MEGAREDS. i guess we just wait for an owner to experience a second flood and see what happens ???

Icanrel-8

Ok, so, unlike a lot of folks on this forum, I never had a rotary. For all you who owned RX-7s, was flooding an issue? Or is this a Renesis issue?

I agree with BillK, fun's fun, and I'll take my lumps if I don't follow proper proceedure, but I'm gonna get positively bucky about needing a tow over a simple stall out. And with kids in the car...

sferrett

I think there's a lot more gloom and doom being portrayed about the flooding than is really necessary, which is understantable... Folks don't generally post whenever their car doesn't flood so you tend to get a skewed impression when you read through the complaints - Yes it's potentially an issue and it's affected some people, but I don't think it's the plague and you're gonna flood the car at the drop of a hat, especially if you're aware of the potential.

I've had my FC rx-7 flood on me twice in the 70,000 miles I've owned it - one time from moving it 20 feet out of my driveway and parking it overnight (a classic cold shutdown), and once when I stalled it hot (I was distracted by a cop directing traffic around a burst watermain and let the engine run down to stall in 3rd gear cause I forgot to push the clutch in...). In both cases I was able to get the car going again (I roll started it down the hill I was parked on in the first instance, and pulled the EGI fuse to cut the fuel while I cranked it for a while in the second instance, much to the bemusement of the cops watching me do all of that). My FD rx-7 which I've had for about 10k miles has nearly flooded on me once (hot), due to a weak battery and subsequent slow cranking speed (I don't drive it much ) - in that case I was able to start it by flooring the gas and cranking it until it finally (barely) started - it was a close call though.

I think cranking speed has a lot to do with it, so when it's cold or the battery isn't fully charged your chances go up. Also I believe if you stall it when cold (rich due to choke plus stalling it gives a very abrupt and unexpected stop) it's more likely to be an issue.

So no, it's not specific to the Renesis but I also don't think it's something which happens a whole lot either. It most likely affects some people more than others due maybe to driving habit (short trips meaning a battery which is never 100% charged up) or environment.

Just my experience though, your mileage may vary.

i3man

My concern is what if you go somewhere and have to valet your 8. There are a few restaurants in my area that are valet only. Must I have the valet sign an assumption of liability if they flood my 8?

Either that or I don't go out and eat at fancy restaurants anymore...only drive-throughs :p

MEGAREDS

Yea, yea... just put 80 miles on her too. (God I love this car!) I was in a bad mood because I was without my car for 6 days and the dealership was less than sensitive. I also think they may have been pissed at me because I called Mazda, which I don't understand but the previous poster may be correct... the dealers may have to eat some of this cost; not really fair in my case, if so, because I bought from another dealer. In any case, they really need to work on the wording of the invoice... it's not generating goodwill -- which is ironic.

Although driving around has calmed me down, my original point is still valid... many told me that I'd be covered under warranty, and I wasn't. We need to get this clarified. I think there is some general misconception out there. If they had charged me for the tow, this could easily have been $250.

Also, a recent poll here shows about 20% have flooded their RENESIS engines. SEE Have you flooded your Renesis? Since this is only a 2004 model, think about it... it's like the US/British air squadrons I saw in a documentary recently that lost 1%-2% per mission during WWII after landing in France. By the time they got to Germany and had flown hundreds of sortees, there was no one left from the original group. We should all understand what to do and, at the very least, know whether calling Mazda Road Side Assistance is going to cost us or not. (By the way, RSA was "ok" on the phone when I originally called but "great" in dispatching the truck - quick, friendly, careful and very helpful in following up with a call to see if I was okay -- Mazda apparently contracted out to AAA for their towing service, and AAA did a great job).

As for rolling the car to get it started, I'm driving the automatic... you know, the kind of car that has no clutch... Damn! I knew there was a down side to chosing the "high torque" model.

Zoom Zoom...

8_wannabe

Just cuz they wrote it on your service slip don't mean it's true. They are trying to modify the conditions of an existing contract, and they have no right to do so unilaterally. Since you sign the service slip when the service is done, that could be construed as your acceptance of this new condition. Personally, I would line out that provision before signing the service slip.

NAVILESRX8

iTrader: (1)

What are all you guys gonna do when the warranty runs out?

Rotary Nut

Get another 8 of course!

dcfc3s

I think there are a few factors here.

First off, most people still have relatively low miles on their engines. A low-mileage engine still hasn't broken in completely, and at that time is FAR more prone to flooding than when it's totally broken in.

Second, you do have to "think rotary" a bit. Once you accept and get used to the idea that you can't move the car bone cold and immediately shut it off, you'll be fine. Backing the car out of the garage and shutting it off will likely flood it. Instead, drive the car around the block really quick, park it where you want it, bring the RPM's to 3000, and turn off the car. I bet you a nickel it won't flood. Takes only a minute to do.

Remember, the cold flooding only happens when the engine is BONE cold, from sitting overnight. If you let a valet park the car, go eat, then have him bring your car after you're done eating, the car wouldn't have had time to cool down enough to get close to cold flooding. Engines hold heat for quite some time, especially rotaries.

Learn how to unflood the car yourself. What the dealership did is NOT rocket science. Most times, pulling the EGI fuse (or the RX-8's equivalent - there's gotta be a fuel injection fuse under the hood), cranking the car for 5-10 seconds with the pedal to the floor, then reinstalling the fuse and cranking will do it. If not, the plugs are fouled - pull the leading plugs, clean the gas off, reinstall, and start. That's exactly what the dealer did.

As far as accidentally stalling the car - if you stall the car cold, and immediately restart it (either by key or popping the clutch), you probably won't flood it. Not to mention driving the car when it's bone cold is probably less than 5% of the time you're driving the car, if not less - the chances of you stalling at another time when the car is warm are much better.

Sferrett hit the nail on the head - you only hear the bad on forums like this. You never post "I got in my car, drove to work, and nothing happened" which is 99% of the time.

I wouldn't shy from buying an '8 because of flooding. Remember, the rotary simply has a different set of rules. It's like me not wanting to buy a piston-engine car because if I don't change the timing belt at 60,000 miles it could break and ruin the engine. Rotaries don't have timing belts. People aren't scared of buying cars with piston engines - they just learn and accept the rule. Same goes for a rotary. The car isn't idiot-proof, there are some procedures you have to learn that are different, but it's not that big of a deal.

Dale

rieskame

I have had the same problem with my dealer. I got my 8 to unflood by taking out the fuel pump fuse and cranking for a while. Now it is having problems starting and the gas mileage has dropped to under 16 on the highway. Also had the milky oil. Dealer said that the oil was due to the flooding, and would not be covered under warranty even though that is a more widespread issue. Of course they didnt tell me this until I picked the car up. The new plugs also wouldnt be covered either, but they didnt put them in. Of course they just said we didnt have any problems starting it, but today it barely turned over. Now I have to do the runaround to get work done. I should have bought the Infiniti.

BillK

I disagree with the likelyhood of stalling the car cold - I'm more likely to stall the car cold as it's usually when I first get in for the day, especially after a vacation, that I will misjudge the clutch engagement point and stall the car.

Also, "cold" is relative; last night it dropped to -5 degrees F here, and my current car wasn't warmed up after my 20 mile drive home. A bad start in 1st anywhere along this route last night would likely have left me stranded unless it takes time for the flooding to occur after the engine dies - something no one, not even Mazda, has confirmed as of yet.

I love the car, but I really do think this is a big red card safety issue that would fall within NHTSA's recall guidelines (after all, they've issued recalls for cars with faulty gas gauges before, so I don't see how having a car not restart if the engine dies is any less a hazard...)

FirstSpin

Personally, I'd enjoy knowing how you can drive a car 20 miles (in any temperature) and not have the engine warm up to full operating temperature - sounds spookey to me.

Regarding the concept that only those who have had problems will be writing about them, of course that's true. However, the poll on the subject gave a cross-section of 8-drivers a chance to share their experiences. I voted---never flooded, take precautions. While not everyone took the poll, I've got to agree with an earlier poster, 20% with flooding is a scarey number.

Personally, I don't even put the car in gear without at least 3 minutes of warm-up. On "cold" (it's never cold here, it's Houston) mornings, I'll probably give it five minutes to warm up while I pack up my stuff for work. I'm hoping like all hell that this is enough precaution, but I'm going to be mad as hell if I get charged for a tow or to unflood the engine. I'm gonna be even madder if they try to blame milky-looking oil on something I've done. The fact that I'll be pissed is inconsequential I know, but it felt good to put it in writing.

Bottom line, if flooding is this common and this great an inconvenience, Mazda should without question, unflood for free.

BillK

Not that spooky at all - if the ambient temperature is that low, most larger engines (6 or 8 cylinder) will not reach normal operating temperature. In fact, most larger engines won't even warm the antifreeze enough to provide heat via the heater until after ten or more minutes of driving at those temps.

Finally, modern engines warm best by driving off immediately and keeping one's driving behavior in check (no extreme revs, no full throttle acceleration.) Warming by idling just wastes gas, especially in a rotary. I don't care if Mazda does unflood for free; having to have your car towed and sit at a dealer for a day or more because of a stall is simply unacceptable in this day and age, and Mazda's going to get more unfavorable publicity from this than from a minor discrepancy in HP numbers most people don't care about...

o_town_racer

Just thought I'd share my "positive" story. I was changing the oil in the Miata this past Sunday morning and had to move it over to the other side of the garage. To make room I had to put the RX-8 over on the other side. I started it, backed out into the driveway, then drove into the other bay of the garage and shut it off. After the Miata's oil change, I got into the RX-8, started it up, and moved it back to it's normal spot. No excessive cranking, no drama, just started right up and did another VERY short drive. I have only had one instance since I bought it in August where it cranked for a few seconds. I had been driving it for a while, parked in a parking lot for about 30 min, and then started it back up. It didn't pop to life in a couple cranks like normal, so I stopped, and cranked again for a few seconds. It started up and I drove home. Of course, while it was in for the oil pan replacement and first oil change, I was chatting with a fellow who was picking up his RX-8 because his wife started it, moved it a few feet, then shut it off and it wouldn't start.

Go4It

Been drivin manuels for 37 years and can't remember ever flaming out on a cold start and having a flooding problem. You do have my attention. I've had this toy for a week and it's starting to get cold. I'll give it a five min. warm up and then go down the road.

dcfc3s

Remember, I'm talking about the engine being BONE cold. If it's -5 outside and you're driving around and stall the car, the car might not be up to temperature, but there's still a LOT of heat in the engine core. It takes a big explosion to move a car forward, and that's a lot of heat. If you stalled it, then left the car and came back in an hour, you might have a problem, but the big thing here is *core* temperature in the combustion chamber, which is hundreds of degrees with the car running.

To the fellow that flooded the car bad - I would look at getting a new set of leading plugs and do an oil change. After a bad flood, it's always a good idea to change the oil, as you can get some gas in the oil. The leading plugs are likely not operating at 100% if your fuel mileage is any indication. This is a relatively simple procedure you can do yourself if you're even slightly mechanically inclined.

BTW, if you're driving the car in a VERY cold climate, it might be worth swapping to the hotter leading plugs for the winter - the 6's. They will retain heat better and stay cleaner. Swap back to the '7s when spring hits. There's a thread in the tech section on this, BTW.

Dale

CatchMe

BillK...I absolutely, totally, unconditionally agree with you. This is NOT acceptable. I was also about to sign the dotted line and didnt due to my inhibitions on the finicky rotory.
This issue must be resolved at once by Mazda. Their reputation is on the line. For the dealer to tell this gentleman that it was a "good will" fix, is ludicrous. It was a fix, free of charge from Mazda, because someone fu**ed up with the design. I sure am glad my Honda is still sitting in my driveway. And like you said, fun is fun, but a dead $30K car is no fun at all!!!

MEGAREDS

Catchme:

In all fairness to Mazda... the language chosen on the invoice was probably not language Mazda chose. My dealership was just not very tactful. Mazda did tell me that the car should not be moved very short distances before I bought it, and I did allow the car to be driven the way Mazda told me to avoid. The car did exactly what they said it would do, although I was disappointed that the emergency procedure failed.

I think Mazda is under no obligation to cover our cars under warranty for these repairs, but I think they need to make a decision on the issue and say publicly what that decision is, because it is affecting very many of us. Some people are not being told that this is an issue, and I am sure some dealerships are downplaying it. What I want to know is whether the "one-time-deflood-for-free" policy is one that will apply to all of us, or just some of us. Also, I want to know for how long that policy will continue. If I get some time this weekend I will compose a letter to their customer satisfaction people and let everyone know what the answer is. I suspect that they will be expecting my letter... If they don't read these posts, they're missing the best source of how their customers view their cars.

l_doggy

I have to say that IMHO this flooding problem IS a serious issue that needs to be fixed. I would hate to have people downplay the issue on a new model car and not have Mazda address it. I say complain like hell until Mazda fixes it. If it floods 2, 3, 100 times, Mazda should pay for the tow, clean the plugs, reset engine codes. Log a call to Mazda (just like I did) and keep calling them until it's fixed. Actually when I called, they said Mazda was working on a fix due to so many complaints.

People (who my guess is have never experienced flooding an RX-8) say 1) read the service manual 2) pull fuse or floor gas pedal 3) clean the plugs in order to unflood the engine. It's really not practical to do these things, and I think enough people have posted that even if you do these things yourself, it's still a bitch to get restarted. It took me 1hr to get the rotary unflooded and I followed procedure in the manual. I would hate to have to do that again if I was trying to pick up the kids from school, make a doctors appointment, etc. What if you were traveling and the wife had to unflood the engine? If you told her to pull the spark plugs to unflood the engine when you got back home, my guess is that you'd be sleeping in the dog house for a week.

Here's another perspective. If you worked for Mazda, wouldn't you want this problem fixed. I think the people who work for Mazda have pride in the RX-8 and would appreciate customers providing constructive feedback if there's an issue.

BillK

I think you're being a bit nicer to Mazda than perhaps you should.

I have been the first to, in the past, clarify that the actions of dealers are not those of MNAO. but at the same time, if the dealer says "Mazda says we'll cover this once out of goodwill" they are, in effect, saying that is the official word from Mazda. It's not your responsibility at that point to play "he said, she said" and sort out who's telling the truth, MNAO. or your dealer.

If this is the way the Renesis works, that's fine, but it had better be in big red letters in the owner's manual, not in a "Quick Start Guide" included with the car. And I can't wait to see what Mazda's towing bills are going to be.

Example: Most hotels in Beaver Creek, CO have valet parking only. The closest Mazda dealer is in Lakewood, CO, 72 miles and two 10,000+ foot mountain passes plus the Eisenhower Tunnel to the East via I-70, or roughly two hours in good weather with light traffic. A few of those tow bills will impact MNAO's bottom line pretty quickly...

MEGAREDS

Perhaps you are right, but I want to give Mazda a fair chance to respond. I am not at all sure that my invoice reflects their actual policy here. They have done so many things right with this car that I'm trying not to overreact.