Hoodster

Mod Edit: This issue is not specific to Racing Beat. Please continue reading before making any comment.
-RIWWP

Guys and gals,

I got suckered in to buying the Exedy Stage 1 HD from RB...who wouldn't when they tell you stuff like this;

"No, the rear counterweight is only required if you'll be replacing the stock flywheel with an aftermarket unit. The Exedy Kit is a GREAT kit, it comes complete with disc, pressure plate, throw out bearing, and thrust bearing. This kit has proven to be VERY popular and is easily the most common clutch kit we sell. Let me know if you have any other questions."

Notice how they use GREAT and VERY to sucker me in.

Then, I go to install and suffer the same declamping issues as everyone else, write them and this is what they wrote back;

"We’ve sold 100’s of these kits without issues; the only adjustment that can be made is with the pedal. I’ve attached a copy of the adjustment technique from a 2004 RX-8 manual, take a look. If this does not address the issue we suggest you contact Exedy for techs advise…they have a very good tech department and might be able to offer additional information. (You can take a look at their troubleshooting guide on the Exedy site, it offer valuable info on common problems. However, most of the issues require inspection of the components to correctly assess the issue.)"

How can they say, "Without Issues" then later in the same paragraph have all kinds of info on how to troubleshoot and problem solve the 'without issue' issue?Contradictory I would say

Long story short, I'm too darn busy to be searching up all this stuff and sometimes I just have to go on what sellers tell me. This time I got burned...fortunately, I can absorb the blow and put my OEM back in.

However, in my world, people and especially businesses need to be held accountable and with this Exedy Stage 1 HD ***** Show, buyers beware.

shazy

EEeeee man that sucks, when I had my transmission replaced my garage had got me the Exedy Stage 2 clutch. Their reason was they knew on several cars that the stage 1 did not perform and the stage 2 was like 50$ more lol... and still less than the OEM replacement the stealership had asked for!!
Stage 2 is really not bad, the clutch threshold is pretty low, but this clutch can take a serious beating and had never given me any issues whatsoever.
Try getting a refund or switch it out for the stage 2 clutch, really worth the price.

REV-N-HIGH

iTrader: (1)

Hey Hoodster- did you speak to Jim Tanner? I can relate.... after the clutch was installed by a pro-rotary mechanic it wouldn't go into gear & I had the same story told to me along with paper work from Exedy showing nothing was wrong with the stage 1 kit..

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It's really the same problem across the board. Most vendors that sell the stage 1 clutch have no idea that there is a problem with the kit, primarily because Exedy doesn't honor the warranty on the failures. Someone in Exedy isn't admitting that there is a problem, so everyone that buys one ends up SOL.

It USED to be perfectly valid and trouble free, but sometime around 2010-2011, something changed and they are no longer appropriate for the RX-8.


Hoepfully Racing Beat will recognize this and stop selling them as well.

Racing Beat Inc

Guys,

As Hoodster mention we've indeed sold 100's of these kits over the years without any significant issues - this indeed has been a VERY good kit at a GREAT price. Most of you know that Racing Beat has been around over 40 years and we certainly don't make a living off "suckering" our customers into buying poorly designed products. That comment was a tad brutal.

Understand, we get A LOT of tech calls/emails and we try and address as many as we can with the limited time we have available. With the very limited details provided in Hoodster's message I personally scanned two pages from the RX-8 workshop manual regarding pedal adjustment and attached the Exedy Troubleshooting FAQ page link.

We've since spoken with two local So Cal rotary-specialty shops regarding the fitting/installation of this kit, and they both indicate they installed this kit without issue. We're now attempting to contact Exedy for additional information regarding this kit with regards to fitting or installation issues. In the meantime, if you've purchased any component from Racing Beat and are having a tech issue, we invite you to contact us DIRECTLY so we can more efficiently resolve your issue.

Jim Langer
Racing Beat, LLC

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I just spoke with Jim Langer, and aside from giving a bit of a different answer from the original OP as you the resolution in that particular case (he said that there was a refund from Exedy to them, which was passed to the customer), he is contacting Exedy with my concerns about the Stage1 kit as a whole for the RX-8. He knows about a problem with the Exedy release bearing, but only that it becomes noisy, not that it produces engagement problems. He also noted that on their customer's order slip they note that they do not recommend the Exedy release bearing, and recommend getting a Mazda OEM release bearing instead.


He also indicates that there are numerous shops that they work with that have installed it without issue, and I have no reason to believe this to be inaccurate.

However I still privately suspect a QA problem around tolerances that produces some good clutches and some bad clutches
... and/or something about a give run or set of run was off and those are mixed in with good run clutches
... and/or the variance is between DIYers and shops that use an OEM Mazda release bearing and the DIYers and shops that use the Exedy bearing as it is easy to see it being provided with the kit.

He said he will be looking into this deeper and seeing what he can determine.

Considering how solid Racing Beat's reputation is for all Mazda communities (not just ours), if anyone can find a clear answer, it is probably going to be them. I still don't recommend the Stage1 at all, from any vendor, unless you feel like experiementing on your own cost and own car.

I am also going to edit the thread title appropriately at the moment, since the problem that does exist is not specific to Racing Beat, and Racing Beat is perhaps the only vendor that is actively trying to make it right.

blckninja

iTrader: (1)

Would be nice if everyone recognized this and stopped selling them, as this isn't a vendor problem but the manufacturer. As far as I know BHR and RB are the only ones that sell the kit, other than Amazon. Would just make life easier if the product wasn't on the market for those that don't know the issue with the clutch kit.

In RB defense, OP never posted about the exedy stage 1 clutch from what I can tell. Never asked a question, and from what I can tell never researched as he would have known about the problem when he talked to the sales rep, not after the clutch went bad.

Hope Hood and RB get this worked out.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

There are some other vendors that sell it as well. I don't go advertising where all i've found it because I don't want people to be drawn to the kit.


Racing Beat has enough pull with Exedy that perhaps instead of not selling it, they actually produce a solution that resolves the problems. That is acceptable as well. I admit I wasn't expecting as quick of a response from Racing Beat as I got, but I have faith that they don't ignore our best interests when it comes to the choices of which products they sell.

04Green

iTrader: (1)

Question,

What is the declamping issue? Does the clutch start to slip at high RPM, with a lighter pedal the higher the RPM?

If that is it, there is an issue, and a fix.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I put one in recently as part of a replacement engine install for someone else, no problem.

No matter how many times I repeat this it never seems to be enough: unless you are on boost or nitrous you don't need anything beyond the Exedy OE replacement, which I competed with for many years on my RX8 without issue, including 100s of 7000-9000 rpm clutch drops for Pro Solo drag start events. Super soft too, still on my original clutch pedal on a Dec/2004 built RX8. My experience is that a stiff Stage Whatever clutch serves no useful purpose on an normally aspirated Renesis/RX8. It will never make over 200 lb/ft torque at the flywheel using an OE size clutch without a major power adder.

My experience with Racing Beat is that they are honest and sincere in every regard. I would strongly urge the OP to reconsider editing his poorly chosen words. I'm sorry you had a problem, but slanderous accusations are not a solution.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

For my part, on the second clutch, the issue was either permanent clutch engagement with a normal pedal free play adjustment or if I adjusted the pedal really far out, I could get clutch disengagement but it was literally almost at the max adjustment possible and in that adjustment position there was a TON of rattling and grinding noises.

The first didn't have any problems at the start apparently, but when it blew itself apart prematurely, there was plenty of evidence that the clutch had been shredding itself for quite a while. I never noticed a partial engagment, but it may have been happening.

Other people have had the release bearing shatter very quickly.



I also agree with Team in that the OEM clutch is all you need.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yup, nothing against you Ray. I just figured that your lack of success was due to the size of BHR and the amount of their product you move.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I remember that conversation.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yes, the size of the business relationship weighting the facts is what I am referring to there.

Hoodster

Considering the potential snowball effects of installing what is known to be a potentially faulty and unreliable clutch kit including damage to the tranny and extra trouble$hooting time, one would expect a reputable company such as RB to strongly consider pulling this product off their shelves.

I find it hard to believe that in all the Stage 1 kits sold by RB, that they hadn't experienced more negative feedback about this particular product considering how much there is to be found on this site clearly indicating the problems users have experienced. If they responded to this post so quickly, one would have to think that they are also patrolling on here rather regularly and came across this issue from more than one source.

As far as choosing 'poor words' well in my opinion, how can they be 'poorly chosen' if they have generated such a considerable and hopefully significant response. In my opinion, you can throw political correctness in the garbage where it belongs and if I had of chosen 'softer' words then most likely we wouldn't be having this discussion and there would be more unsuspecting customers out there purchasing a known faulty product.

After responding to this post, I would hope that RB would strongly consider removing this product from their shelves, issue a refund from Exedy if one has indeed been issued to them, and if they decide to continue to sell it, more transparency to the customer.

Ah, no refund was ever issued, mentioned or asked for. Perhaps there is one in my mail box back home in Canada but I am in Asia. A refund would go a long ways to helping to cover the extra time spent trouble$hooting this in the shop and would perhaps make me reconsider my, "poorly chosen words"...

I hope my 'poorly' chosen words actually generate a solution to this issue and or enough feedback that there are less of these sub standard and potentially damaging clutches sold to unsuspecting and RX8 owners like me.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Hooster, my initial comments about the unmatched information appears to have been relating to rev-n-high, not you. My apologies for the misunderstanding there. Racing Beat couldn't figure out who you are to know if there was or was not any refund involved for your case specifically. 3 different countries involved likely means that figuring it out will be difficult for them. That is between you and them however.



Racing Beat's involvement in the thread is because I specifically contacted them, and provided the thread of interest, as a concerned member of the community and a member of the staff here. I received an email back within minutes and a call within a few minutes of that. Their response here was within a few minutes of the end of our phone call. They do not typically spend time on the forum. They were also unaware of the issues that we have been seeing in the community. Racing Beat is digging into it further to satisfy themselves whether or not there really is a problem (which any soundly run business would do).

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I was referring to the words that reflect poorly on yourself. There's nothing going on that reflects poorly on RB despite an exaggerated attempt to do otherwise. Did BHR "sucker" it's customers in by using the manufacturers marketing information? That kind of comments are absurd, but choosing to stand by it is your choice. Pretty sure the one I installed originally came from BHR.

That said if I were RB my decision would be to not do anything without first getting the clutch back and either installing it on another RX8 for their own direct evaluation or sending it back to Exedy for their analysis. Exedy can certainly mount and spin it up to 10k without issue to verify whether there is a problem with the clutch assy. or if something was just not installed or adjusted properly on your end.

Otherwise how can you explain the people using the same clutch without issue?


.

04Green

iTrader: (1)

Again, Please, what exactly is the problem? Is the release at high RPM, or something else. I am thinking it is something else, but am not sure.

Thanks,

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I don't believe RPM has any major impact. All of my problems were readily apparent at idle.

04Green

iTrader: (1)

Ah,

Thanks. What was the problem?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

See post #11

04Green

iTrader: (1)

@ RIWWP.

So, clutch would not disengage, or if you really worked it, you could adjust the pedal so that it would barely disengage? And, release bearing may or may not have come apart?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Correct.

My release bearing looked fine on the 2nd, it was not disintegrating. On the 1st ... it was intact, but jammed with a ton of shredded clutch material (along with everything else in the bellhousing, it looked like a pressure bomb went off in an insulation packing factory).

04Green

iTrader: (1)

Hm,

Sounds like I might know something useful. You all can grade it. Charles, you may remember....

I put a Stage 1 in my 8, and had a huge issue with the clutch pedal being low, and releasing at high RPM. The pedal would get lighter and lighter, then towards the end (9K) would start to slip. The slip was because the weights in the pressure plate were more in the release position, than in the clamp position.

The issue was deemed to be similar to an old Miata issue, and related to stack height of the flywheel surface, the clutch disk and the pressure plate, in relationship to all the parts inside the pressure plate, the stamped housing and the fingers the release bearing pushes against.

I also noticed that, with the transmission out, the fingers the release bearing pushed against were pretty much parallel to the surface of the flywheel, if not indented slightly (negative crown?)

The fix was to take a set of aerospace precision shims, (ok, washers from lowes) and space the pressure place up about 0.060 inches. The washers go between the flywheel and the pressure plate. And yes, unless you are awesome, you have to pull the transmission to put them in. With the shims in, there was a slight positive crown that seemed to be more like what I remembered when I pulled the old clutch.

When I took the Stage 1 out, and put in an OEM, I measured the crown. It was 0.1 inches further away from the flywheel on the tip, than on the edge next to the pressure plate. When I installed the Exedy OEM, they went back to level, or maybe a thousandth in. I put the washers back in and the crown was back to 0.1 inches.


Assumptions:
Negative Crown is bad, too much and the release bearing may not be able to release the pressure plate. You really want about a tenth of an inch of positive crown.
Also, if the tips are in that far, the release bearing has to slide further down the shaft, and if it gets to the end, it can wobble as it goes past the end of the shaft. Now, I have no idea where that shaft sits in relation to the fingers, but going on memory, it all starts to get close. I would think that an unstable release bearing would tear things to hell.

I tried adding the shims through the start hole. It did not go well. Car shook, clutch did not disengage, and when I took it apart, there was clutch material in several places. I only ran it for about 5 seconds, but clearly something was coming apart.

So, do you all think a lack of crown, due to a stack height issue, is causing the release bearing to have to go further than intended and screwing everything up. Either by coming off the guide, or simply by putting the pressure plate in a position that is was not really supposed to be in? Does anyone with the problem remember what the fingers looked like before the transmission was installed, or did you take a picture?

Or, do I need to head back to the day job?

Or, both?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yes, that solution has been recommended as well, and is one of the reasons that we believe it to be a problem with QA consistency or a bad batch or something, since shimming doesn't solve it, and introduces other problems, on some stage1s.