Article gives insight into just how many RX-8 engines have been rebuilt
08-15-2013, 12:13 AM
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Article gives insight into just how many RX-8 engines have been rebuilt
So here is something pretty telling. So, in the U.S., Mazda sold close to 50,000 RX-8's from 03-08.
Sales thru December of 2011:
2003 - 12,346
2004 - 23,690
2005 - 14,673
2006 - 9,343
2007 - 5,767
2008 - 3,368
According to this article about the plant (written in June of 2011), they rebuilt 5,000 engines in 2010. The plant has been around since 2008, so it's safe to say the yearly average is probably about the same thru that time period give or take a few hundred I would say. If they were still doing 5,000 rebuilds a year, two years after it opened then that means that the failure rate is close to 50%. I realize you have to account for people like me that got two under warranty but still. We also know from the one R3 that had an engine replacement done here that the 09-11 engines are rebuilt there as well but to date I have only heard of three 09' RX-8 needing engine replacements and one was a weird random failure, not compression related.
This is not really surprising to me, it actually confirms what I thought based on how many my dealer (one dealer in a city with 5 Mazda dealers) has done over the years (friend works there).
Thoughts?
Mazda expands plant in Chesterfield - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Richmond's Latest Business & Economic News
Sales thru December of 2011:
2003 - 12,346
2004 - 23,690
2005 - 14,673
2006 - 9,343
2007 - 5,767
2008 - 3,368
According to this article about the plant (written in June of 2011), they rebuilt 5,000 engines in 2010. The plant has been around since 2008, so it's safe to say the yearly average is probably about the same thru that time period give or take a few hundred I would say. If they were still doing 5,000 rebuilds a year, two years after it opened then that means that the failure rate is close to 50%. I realize you have to account for people like me that got two under warranty but still. We also know from the one R3 that had an engine replacement done here that the 09-11 engines are rebuilt there as well but to date I have only heard of three 09' RX-8 needing engine replacements and one was a weird random failure, not compression related.
This is not really surprising to me, it actually confirms what I thought based on how many my dealer (one dealer in a city with 5 Mazda dealers) has done over the years (friend works there).
Thoughts?
Mazda first opened the plant in May 2008 to rebuild rotary-powered engines for its RX-8 sports car. Last year, the plant produced more than 5,000 remanufactured engines.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 07-19-2016 at 11:02 PM.
08-15-2013, 09:13 AM
#5
that's not even counting the engines that are rebuilt by various rotary/engine shops (not remans)
without more data on the # of rebuilds for other years the data is sort of inconclusive imo
I would think it increases annually especially considering the lack of reliability in remans
without more data on the # of rebuilds for other years the data is sort of inconclusive imo
I would think it increases annually especially considering the lack of reliability in remans
08-15-2013, 09:19 AM
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That quote says "produced" not replaced. Granted one could assume that since they are reman engines that they would need failures in the first place so they had engines to rebuild but i would believe that there's more than in car failures that led to engines available for replacement.
The one huge assumption that i think you made too far was the average the plant produced over the years. Just because they built 5000 in 2010 doesn't mean they did that every single year. Typically when building up stock a factory will create a surplus and then trickle off production to a point where they maintain that stock level. Having been built in 2008 also most likely meant it took some time for production to ramp up so they probably quoted 2010 because it was the high point in the factories production.
Also remember that engine failures come from more than just badly built engines. On a car like the rx8 that is often tracked im sure plenty of those engines died from over use or from accidents on track or off. The large amount of remans they produced will be used for more than just replacing the traditional failures.
The one huge assumption that i think you made too far was the average the plant produced over the years. Just because they built 5000 in 2010 doesn't mean they did that every single year. Typically when building up stock a factory will create a surplus and then trickle off production to a point where they maintain that stock level. Having been built in 2008 also most likely meant it took some time for production to ramp up so they probably quoted 2010 because it was the high point in the factories production.
Also remember that engine failures come from more than just badly built engines. On a car like the rx8 that is often tracked im sure plenty of those engines died from over use or from accidents on track or off. The large amount of remans they produced will be used for more than just replacing the traditional failures.
08-15-2013, 09:19 AM
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that's not even counting the engines that are rebuilt by various rotary/engine shops (not remans)
without more data on the # of rebuilds for other years the data is sort of inconclusive imo
I would think it increases annually especially considering the lack of reliability in remans
without more data on the # of rebuilds for other years the data is sort of inconclusive imo
I would think it increases annually especially considering the lack of reliability in remans
jk scott
08-15-2013, 09:28 AM
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that's not even counting the engines that are rebuilt by various rotary/engine shops (not remans)
without more data on the # of rebuilds for other years the data is sort of inconclusive imo
I would think it increases annually especially considering the lack of reliability in remans
without more data on the # of rebuilds for other years the data is sort of inconclusive imo
I would think it increases annually especially considering the lack of reliability in remans
I agree that the production rate might increase annually, but go farther to note that the cars also are aging at the same time. 2004 models are now 10 years old and performance vehicles will start crapping out from age rather than build quality issues. The point of the factory could completely be to bring in the capability to handle supply of reman engines for when the cars start aging out.
08-15-2013, 09:44 AM
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Well they need cores to rebuild, they don't produce new engines there, they just replace parts that need to be replaced. I agree it probably took time to ramp up production but as we know from Sleepy-z (worked at the factory since day one) they were pretty busy early on. I think he even mentioned how many he rebuilt in a day and if you consider the amount of employees they have, you can assume that the number of engines rebuilt in a day is quite a bit.
I realize that some engines failed from racing, owner neglect, etc. but those engines would not be covered under warranty and so the likely hood that those engines would go to the plant to be rebuilt is low. And if you are paying out of pocket you are not likely to purchase a reman from Mazda due to the price of the engine and installation.
Al, I am pretty sure my first reman was from the Cat plant (no blue plaque) when Mazda was contracting them to do the rebuilds. My second one was from the Virginia Plant. It is funny though that the cat contract was cancelled due to quality control issues yet my cat engine lasted 75,000 miles and my Mazda reman plant engine only lasted 30k and my original japan engine only lasted 22k.
I realize that some engines failed from racing, owner neglect, etc. but those engines would not be covered under warranty and so the likely hood that those engines would go to the plant to be rebuilt is low. And if you are paying out of pocket you are not likely to purchase a reman from Mazda due to the price of the engine and installation.
Al, I am pretty sure my first reman was from the Cat plant (no blue plaque) when Mazda was contracting them to do the rebuilds. My second one was from the Virginia Plant. It is funny though that the cat contract was cancelled due to quality control issues yet my cat engine lasted 75,000 miles and my Mazda reman plant engine only lasted 30k and my original japan engine only lasted 22k.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 08-15-2013 at 09:47 AM.
08-15-2013, 09:47 AM
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The intent of that article was to mention the expansion of the factory for reman automatic transmissions, the engine line was a brief tangent. It also mentions they plan to rebuild 3,000 of them annually. As far as i know auto trans failures aren't that high so these numbers can't really be used to correlate failures to production amounts. It would seem to me that mazda is just trying to amass a large amount of rebuilt parts and it's not indicative at all of any kind of failure rates.
08-15-2013, 09:54 AM
#13
Well they need cores to rebuild, they don't produce new engines there, they just replace parts that need to be replaced. I agree it probably took time to ramp up production but as we know from Sleepy-z (worked at the factory since day one) they were pretty busy early on. I think he even mentioned how many he rebuilt in a day and if you consider the amount of employees they have, you can assume that the number of engines rebuilt in a day is quite a bit.
I realize that some engines failed from racing, owner neglect, etc. but those engines would not be covered under warranty and so the likely hood that those engines would go to the plant to be rebuilt is low. And if you are paying out of pocket you are not likely to purchase a reman from Mazda due to the price of the engine and installation.
Al, I am pretty sure my first reman was from the Cat plant (no blue plaque) when Mazda was contracting them to do the rebuilds. My second one was from the Virginia Plant. It is funny though that the cat contract was cancelled due to quality control issues yet my cat engine lasted 75,000 miles and my Mazda reman plant engine only lasted 30k and my original japan engine only lasted 22k.
I realize that some engines failed from racing, owner neglect, etc. but those engines would not be covered under warranty and so the likely hood that those engines would go to the plant to be rebuilt is low. And if you are paying out of pocket you are not likely to purchase a reman from Mazda due to the price of the engine and installation.
Al, I am pretty sure my first reman was from the Cat plant (no blue plaque) when Mazda was contracting them to do the rebuilds. My second one was from the Virginia Plant. It is funny though that the cat contract was cancelled due to quality control issues yet my cat engine lasted 75,000 miles and my Mazda reman plant engine only lasted 30k and my original japan engine only lasted 22k.
08-15-2013, 10:00 AM
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Well they need cores to rebuild, they don't produce new engines there, they just replace parts that need to be replaced. I agree it probably took time to ramp up production but as we know from Sleepy-z (worked at the factory since day one) they were pretty busy early on. I think he even mentioned how many he rebuilt in a day and if you consider the amount of employees they have, you can assume that the number of engines rebuilt in a day is quite a bit.
I realize that some engines failed from racing, owner neglect, etc. but those engines would not be covered under warranty and so the likely hood that those engines would go to the plant to be rebuilt is low. And if you are paying out of pocket you are not likely to purchase a reman from Mazda due to the price of the engine and installation.
Al, I am pretty sure my first reman was from the Cat plant (no blue plaque) when Mazda was contracting them to do the rebuilds. My second one was from the Virginia Plant. It is funny though that the cat contract was cancelled due to quality control issues yet my cat engine lasted 75,000 miles and my Mazda reman plant engine only lasted 30k and my original japan engine only lasted 22k.
I realize that some engines failed from racing, owner neglect, etc. but those engines would not be covered under warranty and so the likely hood that those engines would go to the plant to be rebuilt is low. And if you are paying out of pocket you are not likely to purchase a reman from Mazda due to the price of the engine and installation.
Al, I am pretty sure my first reman was from the Cat plant (no blue plaque) when Mazda was contracting them to do the rebuilds. My second one was from the Virginia Plant. It is funny though that the cat contract was cancelled due to quality control issues yet my cat engine lasted 75,000 miles and my Mazda reman plant engine only lasted 30k and my original japan engine only lasted 22k.
I'm sure cores make their way to mazda from more than just mazda dealers.
One thing the article also doesn't mention is if this plant is solely for US production or if they rebuild engines for other countries as well. You'd think they would at least handle north america if not the entire continent. Keeping that in mind alone can skew the 50% number, although i have no idea how many cars were sold in Canada or South America. If it's even just 25% more then the 5k a year starts seeming smaller in relation.
the other major X factor is the re-replacements. You and Al both indicate multiple replacements due to QA issues so i'm sure it's pretty common and a number the 5k production level is also trying to account for. Me, im at 130K or so on my original engine from 2004. Well at least as best as i can tell its original. No dealer records for replacement so if it was done it was done privately and out of pocket before i got the car and not by the seller i got it from.
08-15-2013, 10:05 AM
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The transmissions are for Mazda 3's and 5's, I have no clue what issues they have. But I don't see them rebuilding RX-8 engines just to have stock, this debacle has cost Mazda plenty enough as is. And if they were just building them to have stock then there would not be a wait for dealers to get engines. That wait time has varied over the years but both time when I needed a reman, it was a few week wait just for the dealer to get an engine. And that seems to be a normal occurrence in other parts of the country as well based on what people say here.
08-15-2013, 10:10 AM
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now that im thinking about it ive never seen the blue reman tag on my engine. i know it was replaced early when the first owner had it so maybe mines not a reman. idk ill have to look around. the tag should be by the front cover on the drv side right?
08-15-2013, 10:11 AM
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first let me note that this is a great discussion and im not trying to troll or bait you.
I'm sure cores make their way to mazda from more than just mazda dealers.
One thing the article also doesn't mention is if this plant is solely for US production or if they rebuild engines for other countries as well. You'd think they would at least handle north america if not the entire continent. Keeping that in mind alone can skew the 50% number, although i have no idea how many cars were sold in Canada or South America. If it's even just 25% more then the 5k a year starts seeming smaller in relation.
the other major X factor is the re-replacements. You and Al both indicate multiple replacements due to QA issues so i'm sure it's pretty common and a number the 5k production level is also trying to account for. Me, im at 130K or so on my original engine from 2004. Well at least as best as i can tell its original. No dealer records for replacement so if it was done it was done privately and out of pocket before i got the car and not by the seller i got it from.
I'm sure cores make their way to mazda from more than just mazda dealers.
One thing the article also doesn't mention is if this plant is solely for US production or if they rebuild engines for other countries as well. You'd think they would at least handle north america if not the entire continent. Keeping that in mind alone can skew the 50% number, although i have no idea how many cars were sold in Canada or South America. If it's even just 25% more then the 5k a year starts seeming smaller in relation.
the other major X factor is the re-replacements. You and Al both indicate multiple replacements due to QA issues so i'm sure it's pretty common and a number the 5k production level is also trying to account for. Me, im at 130K or so on my original engine from 2004. Well at least as best as i can tell its original. No dealer records for replacement so if it was done it was done privately and out of pocket before i got the car and not by the seller i got it from.
And I disagree that they would get cores from other sources, I just can't imagine how that would take place unless they are purchasing junk yard engines.
08-15-2013, 10:14 AM
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all remans have that tag right? ive had a lot of stuff out of my engine bay and dont remember seeing it but i know mazda replaced the engine ~25k
08-15-2013, 10:15 AM
#20
the other major X factor is the re-replacements. You and Al both indicate multiple replacements due to QA issues so i'm sure it's pretty common and a number the 5k production level is also trying to account for. Me, im at 130K or so on my original engine from 2004. Well at least as best as i can tell its original. No dealer records for replacement so if it was done it was done privately and out of pocket before i got the car and not by the seller i got it from.
I would bet the re-man plant is doing much better now then in the past. They also do services and checks most rotary rebuilders do not do (engine dyno brake in). The problem is its still a crap shoot. you dont know if you are getting new housings or if the housings used are at the maximum allowed spec.
08-15-2013, 10:17 AM
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I can't see any Renesis with 130k on it having good compression. As for the records, well I had my buddy (rx-8 owner and Mazda tech) print out the service history on my car a couple of years back and one of my engine replacements was not on there and I had it performed at his dealer. During that time frame there was a cat replacement listed that I didn't know about (or it was never done). They had no explanation for this and so I called Mazda NA and they did have record of it. So apparently the dealer databases don't always match what Mazda NA has.
08-15-2013, 10:19 AM
#23
No, thanks for the input. Different opinions are welcome. I realize the people with multiple replacements skew the number s a bit but those are fairly rare, and I'm not sure about them making remans for other markets because IIRC from sleepy-z, they were for only U.S. models only. It's too bad Mazda asked him to stop posting but we did get some great info from him.
And I disagree that they would get cores from other sources, I just can't imagine how that would take place unless they are purchasing junk yard engines.
And I disagree that they would get cores from other sources, I just can't imagine how that would take place unless they are purchasing junk yard engines.
08-15-2013, 10:29 AM
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No, thanks for the input. Different opinions are welcome. I realize the people with multiple replacements skew the number s a bit but those are fairly rare, and I'm not sure about them making remans for other markets because IIRC from sleepy-z, they were for only U.S. models only. It's too bad Mazda asked him to stop posting but we did get some great info from him.
And I disagree that they would get cores from other sources, I just can't imagine how that would take place unless they are purchasing junk yard engines.
And I disagree that they would get cores from other sources, I just can't imagine how that would take place unless they are purchasing junk yard engines.
Other sources would happen because im sure mazda pays money for the cores. Junkyards can't sell failed engines but they can sell back for core charges. Do autoparts stores sell reman engines? They would also send back cores.
Other sources aside, unless you're looking for on the cheap or power rebuilds most people would probably go to mazda for the replacement even if it's out of pocket. I can easily justify the extra cost of a dealer job over indie just for the knowlege and warranty aspects from the dealer and recourse options from Mazda usa after having used a dealer for it.
As for waiting periods. That can be explained due to the fact that dealers are not going to keep engines on hand and will have to order them. I can certainly see a 2 week period being the time to rebuild an engine but i can just as easily see a heavy bulky motor taking 2 weeks to ship from a warehouse to a dealer. time to rebuild one and then ship it would be more than 2 weeks, unless they were only slightly behind and it took a few days for one to complete and then ship. It's also a job the dealer would have to schedule a large block of time for which can also explain a 2 week period.
08-15-2013, 10:46 AM
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If Canada at least got US spec cars then i'm sure they would get Us spec replacement engines. I cant imagine Mazda building reman plants in every country they sold cars in, it just doesn't make business sense especially when you're trying to hold down costs from warranty claims. Not to knock a rotary friend, but a guy working on the line isn't going to have sales figures, that is if he did work the line. Have no idea how Mazda would get wind of an employee posting on some random forum online if he was.
Other sources would happen because im sure mazda pays money for the cores. Junkyards can't sell failed engines but they can sell back for core charges. Do autoparts stores sell reman engines? They would also send back cores.
Other sources aside, unless you're looking for on the cheap or power rebuilds most people would probably go to mazda for the replacement even if it's out of pocket. I can easily justify the extra cost of a dealer job over indie just for the knowlege and warranty aspects from the dealer and recourse options from Mazda usa after having used a dealer for it.
As for waiting periods. That can be explained due to the fact that dealers are not going to keep engines on hand and will have to order them. I can certainly see a 2 week period being the time to rebuild an engine but i can just as easily see a heavy bulky motor taking 2 weeks to ship from a warehouse to a dealer. time to rebuild one and then ship it would be more than 2 weeks, unless they were only slightly behind and it took a few days for one to complete and then ship. It's also a job the dealer would have to schedule a large block of time for which can also explain a 2 week period.
Other sources would happen because im sure mazda pays money for the cores. Junkyards can't sell failed engines but they can sell back for core charges. Do autoparts stores sell reman engines? They would also send back cores.
Other sources aside, unless you're looking for on the cheap or power rebuilds most people would probably go to mazda for the replacement even if it's out of pocket. I can easily justify the extra cost of a dealer job over indie just for the knowlege and warranty aspects from the dealer and recourse options from Mazda usa after having used a dealer for it.
As for waiting periods. That can be explained due to the fact that dealers are not going to keep engines on hand and will have to order them. I can certainly see a 2 week period being the time to rebuild an engine but i can just as easily see a heavy bulky motor taking 2 weeks to ship from a warehouse to a dealer. time to rebuild one and then ship it would be more than 2 weeks, unless they were only slightly behind and it took a few days for one to complete and then ship. It's also a job the dealer would have to schedule a large block of time for which can also explain a 2 week period.
Sleepy-z's story is well documented here, there is no doubt he worked there and rebuilt engines. And he was open and honest with what he said and the pictures he posted and I don't think he hid that from his coworkers. It is also know that Mazda and other manufacturers do surf automotive forums. If you search, you can read his explanation of why he had to stop posting. He also checked in a year or so later after he stopped working there IIRC.
As for other countries, well they don't get the 8 year or 100k warranty that we did so if you blow your engine, you are SOL in a lot of cases. Canada also did not get U.S. spec RX-8's. If you do get a reman from a dealer in another country, I am not sure where it comes from but I do know it is super expensive, that is why you can buy a low mileage RX-8 in the UK for $10.00, they have almost zero resale value.
Autoparts stores do not sell remans.
As for the delays, in my cases it was almost a month both times. It's not like they are rebuilding your core, you are just getting a rebuild from them so I don't see why it would take more than a week or so to ship and engine from Virginia to Texas.
But I will know soon, next week I am placing an order for a reman at a local dealer so we will see just how long it takes to get it in. I will document the tear down of that reman so we know what is what.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 08-15-2013 at 10:50 AM.