4 port to 6 port conversion
06-29-2010, 05:53 PM
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4 port to 6 port conversion
Hello, I posted a thread asking a few questions about changing a automatic car to a 6 speed. I have a engine with 1500 miles on it in my automatic car, and I have a 6 speed car that was totaled and has 90k miles. To my understanding the difference between the 2 engines (correct me if im wrong) is that the automatic is a 4 port engine and the 6 speed is a 6 port... Alright, so here is my question. Are all the internals interchangeable. I would like to take the engine apart, use the front and rear housings, and I would also like to use the rotor housings, crank, and wankles from the 1500 mile engine and put what I understand to be the "head" of the rotary engine (the center section which to my knowlege is the only difference between the engines) from the 6 speed car to convert my engine to a 6 port engine. I was wondering if anyone has done this conversion. I am 18 and bought a flood car, and turned around and bout a 6 speed car that was totalled... So basically I wand to do a conversion of a 6 speed, and keep a low milage engine like I had prior to the conversion. I'm sure that the way I have written this will be confusing, but please understand that I am a first time owner of a rotary engine car and do not fully understand the internals and how they work in the rotary engine. Any insight into this working would be greatly appreshiated. BTW the reason I didnt trade the car in for a 6 speed (Thats what everyone told me to do on the last thread) is because I have 2500 dollars in both cars with everything to do the conversion... just looking to keep it low miles. :-) and I will be doing all the work myself to save money haha so I hope to learn alot during the duration of the project.
06-29-2010, 08:31 PM
#3
The cheap and easy way to do this conversion is, to sell your auto and buy a manual.
I hope you didn't buy the wrecked manual so you could swap engines. It sounds like you may be in way over your head.
It sounds like you are wanting to use the housing from the manual with the rotors from the auto to give you a 6-port engine in the condition of your 1500 mile auto...I don't think it works that way, do you know how to rebuild the engine?
Also, putting a 6-port engine into your auto won't give you the performance of a manual, unless you swap the transmission too.
If you're really serious, you need to make friends with a local rotorhead who does this kind of work, it's not the kind of thing that you can do on your own with a DiY.
I hope you didn't buy the wrecked manual so you could swap engines. It sounds like you may be in way over your head.
It sounds like you are wanting to use the housing from the manual with the rotors from the auto to give you a 6-port engine in the condition of your 1500 mile auto...I don't think it works that way, do you know how to rebuild the engine?
Also, putting a 6-port engine into your auto won't give you the performance of a manual, unless you swap the transmission too.
If you're really serious, you need to make friends with a local rotorhead who does this kind of work, it's not the kind of thing that you can do on your own with a DiY.
06-29-2010, 08:41 PM
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My father does mechanical and auto body work... so yea I have him for advice... but yea I am switching it to a 6 speed... I just figured I would save some money on the rebuild and swap some of the internals of the engine... I am aware that it is a huge undertaking to change, and I am prepaired for that... The car was a flood so I am changing everything from one car to the other...
06-29-2010, 08:49 PM
#5
I'm no expert on this kind of work, but I don't think that you can just take the housing from one engine and stick in the rotors from another lower-mileage engine to have a "rebuilt" engine. I would think that you'd need to check tolerances and machine to spec anyway. But maybe you'd have a working engine that way, I don't know.
Does your dad know rotaries? It's a different ballgame. I don't think that your plan is very sound, but best of luck to you anyway.
EDIT: Also, aren't the housing and apex seals where the wear occurs anyway? I'm not sure I see the benefit in using rotors from a newer engine.
Does your dad know rotaries? It's a different ballgame. I don't think that your plan is very sound, but best of luck to you anyway.
EDIT: Also, aren't the housing and apex seals where the wear occurs anyway? I'm not sure I see the benefit in using rotors from a newer engine.
Last edited by Marklar; 06-29-2010 at 08:54 PM.
06-29-2010, 11:26 PM
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Use the rotors and all the rotor seals from the auto car, and the matching rotor housings. All seals must be kept in their exact locations on the rotors and the rotors must maintain their orientation in the engine.
Use the 6 port irons. If the 6 port shaft is not damaged, use it also. Plan on needing to install new bearings in the 6 port stat gears, as the main bearings tend to wear out a lot. The auto gears/bearings are not as good/not the same as the 6 port ones.
Use all the 6 port accessories and electronics except perhaps the alternator, water pump, and a/c compressor.
Use all the MT drivetrain, if your car is like mine the rearends will have the same ratio so there is no real need to swap them unless you just want to. The PPF is the same.
Transfer over the PCM, engine harness, clutch pedals hydraulics etc., ABS unit, steering column and keys from the manual car to the auto car.
The instrument cluster also should be changed. There's no known way to alter the mileage which is stored in the cluster, and the cluster is a one piece unit which cannot be mixed and matched, so you just have to live with the higher reported mileage on the MT cluster because you need the higher rpm tach (and the lack of the PRND2L stuff). Just keep the original cluster in case you ever have to sell the car or have it serviced, it takes about 2 minutes to swap it back in place to keep from having a mileage discrepancy reported.
Use the 6 port irons. If the 6 port shaft is not damaged, use it also. Plan on needing to install new bearings in the 6 port stat gears, as the main bearings tend to wear out a lot. The auto gears/bearings are not as good/not the same as the 6 port ones.
Use all the 6 port accessories and electronics except perhaps the alternator, water pump, and a/c compressor.
Use all the MT drivetrain, if your car is like mine the rearends will have the same ratio so there is no real need to swap them unless you just want to. The PPF is the same.
Transfer over the PCM, engine harness, clutch pedals hydraulics etc., ABS unit, steering column and keys from the manual car to the auto car.
The instrument cluster also should be changed. There's no known way to alter the mileage which is stored in the cluster, and the cluster is a one piece unit which cannot be mixed and matched, so you just have to live with the higher reported mileage on the MT cluster because you need the higher rpm tach (and the lack of the PRND2L stuff). Just keep the original cluster in case you ever have to sell the car or have it serviced, it takes about 2 minutes to swap it back in place to keep from having a mileage discrepancy reported.
06-30-2010, 12:38 AM
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I have 2 cars... a automatic that was a flood... i got it running... then all my electronics went haywire... so i bought a totaled 6 speed car and thats why i want to do the swap... i have 2500 in both cars...
06-30-2010, 11:14 AM
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Use the rotors and all the rotor seals from the auto car, and the matching rotor housings. All seals must be kept in their exact locations on the rotors and the rotors must maintain their orientation in the engine.
Use the 6 port irons. If the 6 port shaft is not damaged, use it also. Plan on needing to install new bearings in the 6 port stat gears, as the main bearings tend to wear out a lot. The auto gears/bearings are not as good/not the same as the 6 port ones.
Use all the 6 port accessories and electronics except perhaps the alternator, water pump, and a/c compressor.
Use all the MT drivetrain, if your car is like mine the rearends will have the same ratio so there is no real need to swap them unless you just want to. The PPF is the same.
Transfer over the PCM, engine harness, clutch pedals hydraulics etc., ABS unit, steering column and keys from the manual car to the auto car.
The instrument cluster also should be changed. There's no known way to alter the mileage which is stored in the cluster, and the cluster is a one piece unit which cannot be mixed and matched, so you just have to live with the higher reported mileage on the MT cluster because you need the higher rpm tach (and the lack of the PRND2L stuff). Just keep the original cluster in case you ever have to sell the car or have it serviced, it takes about 2 minutes to swap it back in place to keep from having a mileage discrepancy reported.
Use the 6 port irons. If the 6 port shaft is not damaged, use it also. Plan on needing to install new bearings in the 6 port stat gears, as the main bearings tend to wear out a lot. The auto gears/bearings are not as good/not the same as the 6 port ones.
Use all the 6 port accessories and electronics except perhaps the alternator, water pump, and a/c compressor.
Use all the MT drivetrain, if your car is like mine the rearends will have the same ratio so there is no real need to swap them unless you just want to. The PPF is the same.
Transfer over the PCM, engine harness, clutch pedals hydraulics etc., ABS unit, steering column and keys from the manual car to the auto car.
The instrument cluster also should be changed. There's no known way to alter the mileage which is stored in the cluster, and the cluster is a one piece unit which cannot be mixed and matched, so you just have to live with the higher reported mileage on the MT cluster because you need the higher rpm tach (and the lack of the PRND2L stuff). Just keep the original cluster in case you ever have to sell the car or have it serviced, it takes about 2 minutes to swap it back in place to keep from having a mileage discrepancy reported.
06-30-2010, 01:41 PM
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My automatic is a 2004... Ok so im having another problem... I bought a 04 6 speed car from a junk yard, All my accessories work besides the radio (i believe its a fuse) but I have been trying to get the car running and I am having some difficulties... I drained the fuel, drained gas lines, took spark plugs out and changed them, I also cranked it with the plugs out. The car has sat in a wrecking yard for quite some time. To my knowlege the only things takin off the car was the rack and pinion, and the radiators/coolant fan... so they are not hooked up. I have went threw the flood procedure as far as pulling the fuse and cranking it over. I checked it for fire and it appears to be getting great fire. But it just cranks and cranks, everynow and then it will backfire, more so when i shoot it with starter fluid. I changed crank position sensors on it, I am kinda in the dark being a new rotary owner. I have went over everything as far as the wiring goes and cant see anything unplugged. Could it be due to setting and a lack of compression? Also how would I do a compression check, and what would the readings be for it... I am going to do the rebuild as I mentioned earlier in the thread, but I would like to hear the high milage engine run before I go to swapping everything on the car, just to verify that all my electronics work. (throttle body opens also) The gas that was in it was OLDDDDDDDD smelt like napome... but yea any help would be greatly appreshiated... HAHA I think I will be able to call myself a mechanic after completeing this rebuild and AT to MT swap lol :-)
06-30-2010, 09:22 PM
#19
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Just to tide you over until someone who really knows this stuff pipes up...
Do you have the TSB on starting a flooded engine? With oil washed away from the seals, there's no compression, so they say to squirt oil into the spark plug holes to restore compression. Get the TSB from finishlineperformance.com.
Testing compression on a rotary is different than a piston engine. It needs a special tester that records the peaks from a number of spins, and also records the rpm.
Hope this helps.
Ken
Do you have the TSB on starting a flooded engine? With oil washed away from the seals, there's no compression, so they say to squirt oil into the spark plug holes to restore compression. Get the TSB from finishlineperformance.com.
Testing compression on a rotary is different than a piston engine. It needs a special tester that records the peaks from a number of spins, and also records the rpm.
Hope this helps.
Ken
07-01-2010, 09:15 AM
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Alright, So I pulled the engine from my manuel car. What all bearings will I need for the internals? You mentioned something about main bearings? Where can I buy these? are they just your average parts house bearing? I havent torn it down yet, but I am planning on doing so in the next day or so... Also, should I be able to get a gasket/seal kit at a parts house? I dont need the full rebuild kit... just all the seals required to reassemble the engine.
07-01-2010, 11:17 AM
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kevin@rotaryresurrection
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Hey man, I'm not really sure this is a project you should be undertaking. This is more along the lines of something I or some other rotary mechanic might undertake. The odds are not in your favor to make all this work with your limited amount of rotary knowledge. And, dont get me wrong, I dont mind helping anybody out from time to time...but I'm not sure I feel like answering daily posts about all the issues you are going to encounter for the next few WEEKS or MONTHS.
These sort of ambitious undertakings generally get parted out or sold whole very cheap because of a frustrated owner. OR they get brought to someone like myself in an uncompleted state and they say "put it back together".
You cannot buy ANY internal parts for a rotary at a "parts house". There are no "aftermarket" internals for rotaries. Everything must come from mazda, or a rotary specific manufacturer like atkins rotary who does make some of their own parts and use some of mazda's oem parts. The bearings are mazda only...you get them from a dealer or a mazda parts supplier such as atkins.
TEAR THE DAMN THING APART BEFORE YOU GO BUYING PARTS. Trust me on this...you have no clue what you have before your engine is torn down.
I had a guy bring me a one owner 95 rx7 twin turbo last month. IT started and ran "normally" according to him. He was bringing it to me only because it needed turbos, and the "low coolant" buzzer was going off at times. He expected the engine to be pristine inside and need only a refresh.
When I tore his block apart it turns out he had one broken apex seal and 2 destroyed iron housings with busted water jacket walls. HE also needed main bearings. The 93-95 rx7 and the MT rx8 engines seem to eat main bearings and sometimes e-shafts.
These sort of ambitious undertakings generally get parted out or sold whole very cheap because of a frustrated owner. OR they get brought to someone like myself in an uncompleted state and they say "put it back together".
You cannot buy ANY internal parts for a rotary at a "parts house". There are no "aftermarket" internals for rotaries. Everything must come from mazda, or a rotary specific manufacturer like atkins rotary who does make some of their own parts and use some of mazda's oem parts. The bearings are mazda only...you get them from a dealer or a mazda parts supplier such as atkins.
TEAR THE DAMN THING APART BEFORE YOU GO BUYING PARTS. Trust me on this...you have no clue what you have before your engine is torn down.
I had a guy bring me a one owner 95 rx7 twin turbo last month. IT started and ran "normally" according to him. He was bringing it to me only because it needed turbos, and the "low coolant" buzzer was going off at times. He expected the engine to be pristine inside and need only a refresh.
When I tore his block apart it turns out he had one broken apex seal and 2 destroyed iron housings with busted water jacket walls. HE also needed main bearings. The 93-95 rx7 and the MT rx8 engines seem to eat main bearings and sometimes e-shafts.
07-02-2010, 11:52 PM
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I really appreshiate all your help, and the thing on buying all parts from mazda is great to know haha yea I found out there are no rotary parts at the parts house pretty quick lol... But yea I will get the car fixed sometime soon, I have the engine out and all accessories off. I gotta pull the other engine and get it ready to tear down. Me and one of my friends dropped the engine/subframe/tranny in about 3.5 hours the other day. But yea im not familiar with the rotary's... but I gotta start somewhere... I made a wise investment in a service manuel as well :-P
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