Legot

iTrader: (1)

Now that the wonder twins have brought it up, I'm curious as to their occupations (Kickerfox and KFC).

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Not relevant Legot.

KFC

I know that RX drivers love the rotary, if I thought this was going to be expensive, I wouldn't bother. A person on locost builders has been driving their MX5 (Miata) V6 KLDE conversion for a couple of years now and goes on a driving holiday once a year through the Italian alps. No issues to speak of, just a fuel pump. That engine is all alley and very light. Clairtoo is the name. I weighed both engines and it's not double, near the same! Believe it! The built up renesis with manifolds, flywheel, clutch, auxilaries, everything that is part of the engine weighs 130kg and the V6 weighs 120kg without the manifolds, clutch and flywheel, but with all the auxiliaries. I'll try to weigh it all this weekend to settle this debate on weight difference. 😉

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I'm assuming a 1st or 2nd gen MX-5. If so, there are SIGNIFICANT differences in both chassis and electronics that makes a Miata chassis a much easier/simpler/cheaper swap option than an RX-8.

KFC

Yeah it is. Just a good example of en engine conversion that's used on a daily basis. I'm only using 3 sensor wires to works the dash and run the engine with megasquirt. Easy.. If I have ECU problems, I have a good mate that's a electrical software engineer, he reassures me that the water temp, oil pressure and rpm signal wires can be shared with the megasquirt ecu.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I hear that a lot. It isn't actually that simple in practice with the RX-8, but it is pretty clear you will have to just discover it on your own like every other failed swap out there.


Good luck, you are gonna need it.

kickerfox

You guys must be pretty ignorant if you can't do a swap for under $5k. I might still be under $5k including the turbo plumbing. The more vehicle manufactures the better. Here's how that works. Why would I want a $200 Slave from a Viper when a $60 one from a Colorado will work if I put a $50 spacer behind it? I saved $90 bucks and it's the same quality part. Next, I'm swapping the 8's piece-of-**** plastic injection-molded swap-bar links with some from a Suzuki. Why? Because the 8's ones are trashed at 72k miles and I want to save money and have the vehicle last longer so I'm using a Suzuki part.

All vehicle manufactures use similar quality components. Engine parts are all made in the same factories. (Like Aisin Seiki or Fugi or random China out-sourcing). All manufactures know how to cut corners. Some parts are great, some suck. Take the 8's pedal assembly. How much thinner could they make it?

The more you guys argue reliability the more ignorant you look. You were never mechanics by trade for any length of time, were you?

200.mph

iTrader: (9)

heres your tq on the cheap kicker

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-maj...0hp-tq-204601/

kickerfox

KFC - Usually you can't share signals if they have pull-up to 5v at the ECU. The pull-up resistor is a specific value so that it and the sensor resistance create a voltage divider set to a specific voltage. The mega-squirt may be an exception if you can cut it's pull-up resistor and let the 8's ECU provide the voltage. If not, you can buffer any and all signals with a 358 op-amp and your own pull-up resistor.

A lot of people like to give argument, saying you can't do this or that, and fail to provide any technical reason why. I think they echo material they've read without the use of independent thinking. If one person had a problem with something it must have been the impossible.

kickerfox

If I was doing a small block my build would be under $1500.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

What's ignorant is your opinion based on your experience. You claim the Renesis is not reliable yet we have plenty of members over 100k with no rebuilds or issues; the loudest voice on the forums is always those with problems and never those who've experienced none.

Then you claim about reliability of your engines built by your skills and so-called reliable yet cheap parts and yet ignore the fact that for that to be proven you would need data compiled from engines done and run side by side overtime to prove they're reliable by you other than tooting your own horn and throwing out complete BS.

For example, in my experience with Ford trucks I've seen and had nothing but unreliable issues with the engines and related components well under 100k yet others have had the complete opposite experience yet I don't claim them to be ignorant; it's not the same for everyone.

That said, you pulling numbers out of your *** stating that so and so part fails at so and so mileage number because of your experience doesn't make it a fact. For it to be a fact it would have to be proven for all Rx-8 models across the board.

So for your number-statistic-spewing-opinionated-bs you're slobbering about; until you back up those with factual data which would require a few years then what you're saying sounds like nothing but hearsay and in short....

KFC

Have a look at the built up weight of the renesis.. I just piled on the parts just before I put the engine in to get the total weight. The heavy airbox weighed about 4kg that is not shown. I haven't weighed the oil coolers that have come off, which are heavy. Hmmm, I just might now..

KFC

Blah blah blah... They sound crap! like a puney 2 stroke. I think if there was an option when buying the car, a rotary or a meaningful V6, the rotary would have been phased out.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I'm curious...why? How does the existance of an engine in a car you don't like have any actual impact on your life? In a world with literally more than 200,000 possible year, make, model, engine, transmission, drivetype combinations for you to choose from, why it is so offensive to you that an engine exists that you won't use?

kickerfox

Vlaze - A part that's been in production for years, using a proven design, doesn't itself need to be proven. If I build a tire out of aluminum foil, how well would it work? I guess we'll never know until it's "proven".

And how is an opinion based on experience ignorant? You got me there.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

As we keep saying, the engine itself isn't what we talk about with reliability. It's everything else related to the swap. Things like hose connections, wire splices, wire shielding, error lights, shorts, grounding problems. Stuff that vibration and heat cycling will stress more than you expected. We aren't talking "the engine self destructs!" So no, a part that has been in production for years using a proven design doesn't inherently pass it's factory installation trustworthiness on to a backyard swap where everything supporting the part may not be up to OEM spec. To assume otherwise is to put some pretty big blinders on.

Here is an example of what Vlaze is talking about:
Toyota Corollas are crap and hugely unreliable. Their engines fail before 70,000 miles, their transmissions before 100,000 miles.

That seems like a pretty bold lie doesn't it? After all, Corollas are virtually the definition of automotive reliability.

But, that statement is 100% true if all you are basing it on is my personal experience. My Corolla's engine sludged up and self destructed at 62,000 miles. It cost me more out of pocket in repairs and down time than my RX-8 ever experienced. If I were to only look at the reliability question from my own perspective, then I would be exceedingly ignorant, because it is NOT a good example of the model as a whole (despite it being an issue that a recall was issued to resolve a few years later).

That's what Vlaze is talking about. Personal experience does count for a lot, but it is never the whole story, and it is never the 100% accurate story. It is always one extreme of the story.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

This in itself, is not ignorant.

It's how you present yourself as if your opinions are facts and everyone else is wrong when their experience differs from yours.

KFC

Oil coolers and pipework weigh 11kg, actually really heavy and they are forward the front wheels, even worse so the over all weight difference should be the same. I'm not going by what I find on the internet but what I have and weigh the engine packages and their differences. I have weighed everything, it's an obsession as I was a F1 race mechanic and it's drummed into you early on in your early years. So far the renesis engine package that won't be used weighs 146kg. It's the over all package that people forget about, the actual core of the renesis is about 90kg but everything else you have to take in. Have a look at my previous photo's.
So far the V6 weighs 135kg, items left to go on to bring the weight up are, exhaust headers, airbox & filter, oil filter housing, engine mounts, ecu and management system. So it's looking good, I have done my homework.

kickerfox

Vlase - You say we're wrong, we say we're right. Round and around. I like rotary engines. I've owned 3 rotary-powered cars and a rotary-powered snowmobile. My '85 7 had 108k when I sold it. My '91 7 had 150k on it when sold. My '04 8 had 72k when it died. My friend's 8 died at '93k. IMO over 100k out of a Renesis is more of a fluke then the norm. The older 13Bs were more reliable. I'll leave it at this. "The Renesis is significantly less reliable and requires more maintenance at a higher cost then other engine designs".

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

... "and a swap tosses all of that out the window".

KFC

I don't know the phrase in the US but here it's "petrol head" I love engines, proper engines with a good sound, anything more than 4 cylinders. The sound of a Maserati is just pure bliss, it's the heart of the car, the one thing that will make a good car sound and feel great. The sound of the rotary just doesn't do it for me. Years ago I spent a year in California at Laguna Seca, I was a mechanic on the race cars and raced them as well. They have the RX7 engine, I learnt a lot about them then and I think that's where the hate started.

Vlaze

iTrader: (14)

I'm not saying one way or another. Rather I'm simplying saying experiences differ and retorting to saying the other person is wrong because of that is setting yourself up for a big fail.

All engines die eventually, the rotary may not be on top of the ladder for best reliability but if it wasn't a proven design it wouldn't have made it through decades of use...

When you start using slandering and stating people don't know **** when some of them here who have replied have worked around these engines more extensively and longer than you is going to result in sticking your foot in your mouth.

kickerfox

Maybe you know them. You don't know me or my skill level. Designing isn't something commonplace. It takes a special skill to pick up a part and find its design pros and cons. I've been building more then just cars for 35 years and know a thing or two about structural engineering. I'm not just throwing in parts that I can make fit and I don't think KFC is either. If you can't appreciate the skill it requires to cross - fit pre engineered parts then you probably don't have any experience to back you.

KFC

How long do people think I want to keep this car for? 5yrs, 10yrs.. More... Nope. The car is already 10 years old. 3 to 5 years tops. I don't keep cars that long. I'm putting in an engine with 120k miles that costs nothing. Coming out of the car I'm driving that I paid £400 2 years ago so it doesn't owe me anything, that's cheap motoring. If it all goes well then I'll rebuild a spare that I have and do a swap over a weekend and have it at least 5 years then get something else. No biggy..

KFC

Hmm, you asked, I'm still waiting from RIWWP. I don't like to boast but....
I'm a gas turbine prototype test build engineer, have been a business jet engineer, F1 race mechanic. So like Kickerfox, I have enough relivent expearience and skill set, I'm a fabricator, machinist so I don't pay anyone to do work, hence why my costs are new parts only.
People are so quick to assume you're numpty that has pipe dreams..