Kickers V6 swap thread
01-07-2013, 03:33 AM
#252
Registered
Thread Starter
Is it possible project the graph to 7500rpm and could I get a copy of the excel file to learn how that works? I'm guessing this is the first set of numbers.
Last edited by kickerfox; 01-07-2013 at 03:42 AM.
01-07-2013, 08:55 AM
#253
No problem.
I can continue the graph based on the same trend for like the last 3-4 figures. If I do it based on the average for the whole data set it would throw it off too much IMO because of how an engine runs and how power and tq usually begin to drop off. It's basically going to be linear though from 5500-7500 because there's no real world data in that RPM range.
Yea that was for the first set of data.
I'll upload it later after work.
I can continue the graph based on the same trend for like the last 3-4 figures. If I do it based on the average for the whole data set it would throw it off too much IMO because of how an engine runs and how power and tq usually begin to drop off. It's basically going to be linear though from 5500-7500 because there's no real world data in that RPM range.
Yea that was for the first set of data.
I'll upload it later after work.
01-07-2013, 07:13 PM
#255
Voids warranties
Here's why I think you're getting bashed so much. It has nothing to do with peoples hatred for truck engines. Or peoples love for JZ or LS or BMW engines. And it really has nothing to do with what people think about your abilities or power goals. I can understand a bit of bitterness from those here who are loyal to the rotary but its more than that.
I think what it boils down to is this:
An engine swap no matter how you cut it is a huge undertaking. Regardless of your ability and past experience. I know kids that have done Honda swaps a dozen times over. They are good at it. But it doesn't make the work load any less.
The thing is, as lame as it sounds, the "go big or go home" mentality will always come up.
The kids that do B series swaps always ask the ones who did a D series swaps why not do B. And the ones who do H swaps ask the B swap kids why not go H. And the ones who do K swaps ask the H swap kids why not go K. and so forth.
The point is, most people cant understand why you would go through so much headache for such little gains. It just seems to make more sense that if you are going to go through all the trouble to make the swap work, why not get the most out of it that you can.
Basing it mostly on the cheapness and availability of parts as it seems you keep advocating makes no sense at all. In theory if you are as thorough as it seems you are, you should only need to do the swap once. Then be done with it.
It seems you are basing you engine sourcing plan on the expectation that this engine will crap out every 6 months and you will need to have spares readily available.
In retrospect, given the track record of all the Isuzu 3.5 engines Ive seen in the past, maybe it is best to keep a few spares ready to swap in.
As you mentioned earlier in the thread you plan to rebuild before you install. That seems kinda counter-productive to the $300 junk yard price you keep bragging about doesn't it?
I, for one, hope you can actually pull it off. And I hope it does everything you want it to do. It is your time and money. None of ours. I just have a feeling that you are going to be spending a lot more time and money than you expect to. And in the end you will be thinking about how much more engine you could have gotten out of the project for what you have put into it.
I think what it boils down to is this:
An engine swap no matter how you cut it is a huge undertaking. Regardless of your ability and past experience. I know kids that have done Honda swaps a dozen times over. They are good at it. But it doesn't make the work load any less.
The thing is, as lame as it sounds, the "go big or go home" mentality will always come up.
The kids that do B series swaps always ask the ones who did a D series swaps why not do B. And the ones who do H swaps ask the B swap kids why not go H. And the ones who do K swaps ask the H swap kids why not go K. and so forth.
The point is, most people cant understand why you would go through so much headache for such little gains. It just seems to make more sense that if you are going to go through all the trouble to make the swap work, why not get the most out of it that you can.
Basing it mostly on the cheapness and availability of parts as it seems you keep advocating makes no sense at all. In theory if you are as thorough as it seems you are, you should only need to do the swap once. Then be done with it.
It seems you are basing you engine sourcing plan on the expectation that this engine will crap out every 6 months and you will need to have spares readily available.
In retrospect, given the track record of all the Isuzu 3.5 engines Ive seen in the past, maybe it is best to keep a few spares ready to swap in.
As you mentioned earlier in the thread you plan to rebuild before you install. That seems kinda counter-productive to the $300 junk yard price you keep bragging about doesn't it?
I, for one, hope you can actually pull it off. And I hope it does everything you want it to do. It is your time and money. None of ours. I just have a feeling that you are going to be spending a lot more time and money than you expect to. And in the end you will be thinking about how much more engine you could have gotten out of the project for what you have put into it.
01-08-2013, 12:42 AM
#259
Registered
Thread Starter
godesshunter: I found a running engine for $200. Aranging for pickup this week but this guy takes forever to answer emails. Rebuild kit is $300. Machining is minimal. The Isuzu engines hold up well to wear. The biggest issue I've found with them is oil burning caused by coked oil rings. Performance mods will be much more if I do go that route. I'd like to but I'm opening a second store soon so I'll have to see how my funds hold out.
There's no argument that an engine swap is a lot of work. That doesn't mean it's difficult. Counting 1000lbs of toothpicks is a lot of work. Is it hard to do? If someone has to learn as they go and research every aspect of a swap (like learning how to weld and learning electronics) it can be a painstaking task. I have a lot of design and fabrication experience, electrical and electronics experience, as well as many connections for materials and other things like TIG and waterjet.
There's the satisfaction that comes with any project large or small. Why this motor? That question had already been answered but it's light, cheap, common, parts are cheap, many transmission options, better mileage, more low rpm torque, and it's a unique swap. I don't expect to replace it every 6 months. It's a reliable engine.
kma5783: Thanks. Winzip is telling me that's not a vaild archive. "End-of-central-directory signature not found. Either this file is not a Zip file, or it constitutes one disk of a multi-part Zip file."
TeamRX8: .....
shr3da: My Miata whooped 350zs but I do like it's looks. I may own one someday but for now, I don't need a car payment. I'll have to make due with the RX-8 unless a good deal comes along.
Everyone: I'm not looking to break records, shoot for the moon, or 1-up everyone elses swaps. That's not my goal. Considering ALL things, this engine should perform to my expectations. If not, I can still enjoy the swap and pick up another identical v6 to build at my leisure. That's what I planned for my Miata because those engines are also cheap and plentiful. I had bought everything I needed for 500+ when it kinda dawned on me that the drivetrain couldn't hold the power. I couldn't justify the costs or the time of the drivetrain upgrades so I sold it off and enjoyed what I had. I don't even know what the RX-8 rear end can hold but the diff and axles look much stronger then a Miata's.
There's no argument that an engine swap is a lot of work. That doesn't mean it's difficult. Counting 1000lbs of toothpicks is a lot of work. Is it hard to do? If someone has to learn as they go and research every aspect of a swap (like learning how to weld and learning electronics) it can be a painstaking task. I have a lot of design and fabrication experience, electrical and electronics experience, as well as many connections for materials and other things like TIG and waterjet.
There's the satisfaction that comes with any project large or small. Why this motor? That question had already been answered but it's light, cheap, common, parts are cheap, many transmission options, better mileage, more low rpm torque, and it's a unique swap. I don't expect to replace it every 6 months. It's a reliable engine.
kma5783: Thanks. Winzip is telling me that's not a vaild archive. "End-of-central-directory signature not found. Either this file is not a Zip file, or it constitutes one disk of a multi-part Zip file."
TeamRX8: .....
shr3da: My Miata whooped 350zs but I do like it's looks. I may own one someday but for now, I don't need a car payment. I'll have to make due with the RX-8 unless a good deal comes along.
Everyone: I'm not looking to break records, shoot for the moon, or 1-up everyone elses swaps. That's not my goal. Considering ALL things, this engine should perform to my expectations. If not, I can still enjoy the swap and pick up another identical v6 to build at my leisure. That's what I planned for my Miata because those engines are also cheap and plentiful. I had bought everything I needed for 500+ when it kinda dawned on me that the drivetrain couldn't hold the power. I couldn't justify the costs or the time of the drivetrain upgrades so I sold it off and enjoyed what I had. I don't even know what the RX-8 rear end can hold but the diff and axles look much stronger then a Miata's.
Last edited by kickerfox; 01-08-2013 at 11:21 AM.
01-09-2013, 03:17 AM
#261
Registered
Thread Starter
01-09-2013, 11:50 AM
#266
Registered
Thread Starter
I read about it. No vehicle should ever have intermittent problems having to do with braking or steering. It a serious saftey issue. I'm putting in a hydraulic rack anyway. Again, making the car what it should have been in the first place. Safer and more reliable.
01-09-2013, 12:09 PM
#267
Many modern vehicles show this kind of issue. Most Fiat models do. It's just an annoyance, not a safety issue (unless you're retarded).
01-09-2013, 01:27 PM
#268
Registered
Thread Starter
How do you steer out of a turn? Say your making a left turn at an intersection. As you come out of the turn, don't you loosen your grip on the steering wheel expecting it to auto-correct itself straight? What if it doesn't? Do you have enough time to yank the wheel straight (through unexpected resistance) before you hit the guy 3 feet from you sitting in the turn lane on your left? I don't know too many daily drivers who steer hand-over-hand coming out of a turn who are prepared for the steering system to fail and stick. ANYTHING unexpected in the steering system is a serious risk and even more so on public roads. It amazes me how many RX-8 owners blame owners/drivers for all the problems the car has. The common steering problem seems to be the location and lack of waterproofing of some electrical connectors associated with the steering system. How is that the owners fault?
01-09-2013, 01:52 PM
#269
How do you steer out of a turn? Say your making a left turn at an intersection. As you come out of the turn, don't you loosen your grip on the steering wheel expecting it to auto-correct itself straight? What if it doesn't? Do you have enough time to yank the wheel straight (through unexpected resistance) before you hit the guy 3 feet from you sitting in the turn lane on your left? I don't know too many daily drivers who steer hand-over-hand coming out of a turn who are prepared for the steering system to fail and stick. ANYTHING unexpected in the steering system is a serious risk and even more so on public roads. It amazes me how many RX-8 owners blame owners/drivers for all the problems the car has. The common steering problem seems to be the location and lack of waterproofing of some electrical connectors associated with the steering system. How is that the owners fault?
Even without the power steering it's easy enough to turn the wheel right and left when moving, it's no different than an older non PS car.
01-09-2013, 02:21 PM
#271
Phone Booth'd
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cincinnasty
Posts: 2,441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lol. OP is a fool that apparently just likes to see himself type. I applaud your research efforts, but loath your lack of comprehension, ability to take criticism, and general excuse making.
1st. the truck engine will suck. look at that wonderful torque curve that plummets after a useless 4k.
2nd. OP obviously can't drive. Anyone who can actually drive a car knows that you never sit at super low rpm when running through curvy roads, on track, or even autox. based on his last reply it is clear that he doesn't know how to drive properly. Now his reasoning for his engine choice makes sense. "Let go of the wheel for it to auto correct?" What a joke. The "flaw" in the power steering does nothing but make the power assist stop working. If you blow a PS line or belt with a hydraulic rack, is it a flaw in the design? It's not like the steering locks and it can't be turned. Pay attention while you're driving and this won't be a problem.
3rd. It's a truck engine. I don't need to say more, but I will. If you try to get more top end out of it with intake/exhaust tuning and/or FI, you're going to have to get it from somewhere else...your bottom end. There goes one of your reasons for picking the engine in the first place.
4th. There is no such thing as a budget swap in an RX8. $500 rebuild kit for that isuzu engine? What does that include? It was more expensive than that to put a crank and bearings in the last subaru i tore down. ****. I spent that much putting a rod, bearings, a piston, and rings in my quad with i was a kid. You're either only getting a gasket set, or you're getting some **** parts. Especially since you went on an on about what rods would fit, and what would need machined to fit. To me a full rebuild (especially for power/reliability) is full gaskets, pistons, wrist pins, wrings, bearings, a turned crank, a valve job, and new rods depending on the application. I don't think it means the same to you. I already blew your budget didn't I?
5th. This is not a budget turbo kit. Kudo's on bolting on a bunch of used **** to a miata motor. I'm not saying you don't have any skills or can't fab anything up, but i am saying that this isn't just a bolt on/in and go. In all of your 6 pages of gibberish, you haven't specified what power levels you're looking for or what you really plan on doing to get there once you figure it out, yet you're looking at gearing options. If you're gonna go stock v6, stick with stock rx8 gearing. The power levels are similar enough that you won't have to worry about it. If you're going for bigger numbers and boost, you should really get some engine dyno time if you're concerned with gearing. Without knowing what the power band looks like in an un-charted, rarely used engine that you'll be winging it with, it's pointless to try and figure out what gearing to use.
6th. by the time you've dicked around with two **** engines (including a real rebuild), 3 **** trannies, and a few diffs, you could put in an LS1/t56 combo with less work and the same amount of money or less. It would likely out perform whatever monstrosity you come up with.
Oh and for the record, the RX8 is one of the safest vehicles on the road today in the event of an accident. It will become unsafe when you're dumb enough to let go of the steering wheel mid corner.
1st. the truck engine will suck. look at that wonderful torque curve that plummets after a useless 4k.
2nd. OP obviously can't drive. Anyone who can actually drive a car knows that you never sit at super low rpm when running through curvy roads, on track, or even autox. based on his last reply it is clear that he doesn't know how to drive properly. Now his reasoning for his engine choice makes sense. "Let go of the wheel for it to auto correct?" What a joke. The "flaw" in the power steering does nothing but make the power assist stop working. If you blow a PS line or belt with a hydraulic rack, is it a flaw in the design? It's not like the steering locks and it can't be turned. Pay attention while you're driving and this won't be a problem.
3rd. It's a truck engine. I don't need to say more, but I will. If you try to get more top end out of it with intake/exhaust tuning and/or FI, you're going to have to get it from somewhere else...your bottom end. There goes one of your reasons for picking the engine in the first place.
4th. There is no such thing as a budget swap in an RX8. $500 rebuild kit for that isuzu engine? What does that include? It was more expensive than that to put a crank and bearings in the last subaru i tore down. ****. I spent that much putting a rod, bearings, a piston, and rings in my quad with i was a kid. You're either only getting a gasket set, or you're getting some **** parts. Especially since you went on an on about what rods would fit, and what would need machined to fit. To me a full rebuild (especially for power/reliability) is full gaskets, pistons, wrist pins, wrings, bearings, a turned crank, a valve job, and new rods depending on the application. I don't think it means the same to you. I already blew your budget didn't I?
5th. This is not a budget turbo kit. Kudo's on bolting on a bunch of used **** to a miata motor. I'm not saying you don't have any skills or can't fab anything up, but i am saying that this isn't just a bolt on/in and go. In all of your 6 pages of gibberish, you haven't specified what power levels you're looking for or what you really plan on doing to get there once you figure it out, yet you're looking at gearing options. If you're gonna go stock v6, stick with stock rx8 gearing. The power levels are similar enough that you won't have to worry about it. If you're going for bigger numbers and boost, you should really get some engine dyno time if you're concerned with gearing. Without knowing what the power band looks like in an un-charted, rarely used engine that you'll be winging it with, it's pointless to try and figure out what gearing to use.
6th. by the time you've dicked around with two **** engines (including a real rebuild), 3 **** trannies, and a few diffs, you could put in an LS1/t56 combo with less work and the same amount of money or less. It would likely out perform whatever monstrosity you come up with.
Oh and for the record, the RX8 is one of the safest vehicles on the road today in the event of an accident. It will become unsafe when you're dumb enough to let go of the steering wheel mid corner.
Last edited by fuztupnz; 01-09-2013 at 02:24 PM.
01-09-2013, 05:33 PM
#272
Registered
Thread Starter
Is a forum not a place to have conversations?
What makes a truck engine a truck engine. Because it came from a truck? Or is it the torque characteristics? Any reason the torque curve can not be moved up or down or widened? I think you need to understand a little more about engine dynamics before you shitcan an engine choice based solely on it's original application.
At least if a belt broke or a line blew the steering would remain consistant. Coming off a turn, if you have to correct quickly and you know your car, releasing the wheel for a split second can quickly put it where it needs to be much faster then you turning it with your hands. Have you ever had to countersteer a fishtail or drift and had to get the front wheels quickly pointed straight once your vehicle is back on track?
see #1
Just because you or the majority of guys doing swaps aren't as resourceful doesn't mean it can't be done.
That's your most ignorant comment yet. You understand the torque curve on the v6 is lower but advise I use the RX-8 trans? I suggest you compare some vehicles' gear ratios that use piston engines vs. rotary.
Why do you think I was trying to create virtual engine dyno plots? At least I'd have something to go by. I'm more worried about the RPM. I'd much rather stay in a lower gear to redline even after my engines torque is falling. Up-shifting may put the engine at an rpm where it gained 50lb of torque but I lost 75lb worth due to the shift. That has everything to do with gearing. It's also a daily driver so I have cruise RPM and fuel mileage to consider when choosing my ratios. Say I drive on the highway at 70mph. If 4th was at 4000rpm and 5th was at 2000rpm, I've clearly made a poor choice in ratios. Don't forget that these challenges I face I consider to be half the fun.
That is a brute force approach. I prefer a well thought out and efficient approach that suits MY goals.
Do you ever watch in-car cams in drift or rally racing? Have a look. Tell me what you see. You could go watch some the gymkhana videos. If anything they're entertaining.
2nd. OP obviously can't drive. Anyone who can actually drive a car knows that you never sit at super low rpm when running through curvy roads, on track, or even autox. based on his last reply it is clear that he doesn't know how to drive properly. Now his reasoning for his engine choice makes sense. "Let go of the wheel for it to auto correct?" What a joke. The "flaw" in the power steering does nothing but make the power assist stop working. If you blow a PS line or belt with a hydraulic rack, is it a flaw in the design? It's not like the steering locks and it can't be turned. Pay attention while you're driving and this won't be a problem.
Just because you or the majority of guys doing swaps aren't as resourceful doesn't mean it can't be done.
That's your most ignorant comment yet. You understand the torque curve on the v6 is lower but advise I use the RX-8 trans? I suggest you compare some vehicles' gear ratios that use piston engines vs. rotary.
The power levels are similar enough that you won't have to worry about it. If you're going for bigger numbers and boost, you should really get some engine dyno time if you're concerned with gearing. Without knowing what the power band looks like in an un-charted, rarely used engine that you'll be winging it with, it's pointless to try and figure out what gearing to use.
6th. by the time you've dicked around with two **** engines (including a real rebuild), 3 **** trannies, and a few diffs, you could put in an LS1/t56 combo with less work and the same amount of money or less. It would likely out perform whatever monstrosity you come up with.
Do you ever watch in-car cams in drift or rally racing? Have a look. Tell me what you see. You could go watch some the gymkhana videos. If anything they're entertaining.
Last edited by kickerfox; 01-09-2013 at 07:18 PM.
01-10-2013, 08:50 AM
#273
hey kickerfox-- there will always be people that will critize you no matter what.
I too feel that the RX8 has a steering issue that COULD be dangerous under certain situations. Of course this could also apply to hydraulic systems accept for one thing. A hydraulic system will never JERK the steering away from you like this one can. Yes --I have had the steering jerk to the left side so hard that the car almost changed lanes before I could forceably stop it. I fixed the connector and no more problems--but it did scare me a little. If my wife had been driving she would have had, more than likely, a lost of control event. I love the way this car steers--but I am cautious about the general safety of the system.
The viper engine was a truck engine also--to begin with
I too feel that the RX8 has a steering issue that COULD be dangerous under certain situations. Of course this could also apply to hydraulic systems accept for one thing. A hydraulic system will never JERK the steering away from you like this one can. Yes --I have had the steering jerk to the left side so hard that the car almost changed lanes before I could forceably stop it. I fixed the connector and no more problems--but it did scare me a little. If my wife had been driving she would have had, more than likely, a lost of control event. I love the way this car steers--but I am cautious about the general safety of the system.
The viper engine was a truck engine also--to begin with
01-10-2013, 11:36 AM
#274
Registered
Thread Starter
hey kickerfox-- there will always be people that will critize you no matter what.
I too feel that the RX8 has a steering issue that COULD be dangerous under certain situations. Of course this could also apply to hydraulic systems accept for one thing. A hydraulic system will never JERK the steering away from you like this one can. Yes --I have had the steering jerk to the left side so hard that the car almost changed lanes before I could forceably stop it. I fixed the connector and no more problems--but it did scare me a little. If my wife had been driving she would have had, more than likely, a lost of control event. I love the way this car steers--but I am cautious about the general safety of the system.
The viper engine was a truck engine also--to begin with
I too feel that the RX8 has a steering issue that COULD be dangerous under certain situations. Of course this could also apply to hydraulic systems accept for one thing. A hydraulic system will never JERK the steering away from you like this one can. Yes --I have had the steering jerk to the left side so hard that the car almost changed lanes before I could forceably stop it. I fixed the connector and no more problems--but it did scare me a little. If my wife had been driving she would have had, more than likely, a lost of control event. I love the way this car steers--but I am cautious about the general safety of the system.
The viper engine was a truck engine also--to begin with
