350z engine
01-06-2013, 07:21 AM
#28
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Lucky,
The dealer was probably being sarcastic. If they were serious, then they are also lying.
"engine swaps" are not something simply done. They just aren't. For example, have you found the answers to these questions yet:
- Engine management, what ECU are you going to use to run the VQ engine? How are you going to get it to play nice with the RX-8 ECU that still needs to talk to non-engine stuff?
- Wiring harnesses and sensors, which sensors can you re-use from the RX-8 and which do you have to go to something else? How are you handling the splicing of the two wiring harnesses wire by wire?
- Engine placement, the VQ engine crankshaft exists at the bottom of the block, the Renesis e-shaft exists at the center of the block, this means that the VQ engine will sit physically higher in the engine bay, by quite a bit. How are you going to handle lowering the engine, transmission, and driveshaft to get it to stay under the hood?
- Transmission, which transmission are you going to use? Does it have the same length from bellhousing to shifter that the RX-8's transmission does? How are you going to ensure the shifter is located in the same spot?
- Front subframe, what are your plans to modify it, since the subframe and engine mounting points are totally different
- Firewall, how extensively are you prepared to cut up and re-make the firewall to fit the VQ?
- Exhaust, how are you going to handle exhaust routing, since you have 2 banks on the VQ, but the RX-8's frame only has allowance for the exhaust clearance on one side of the car? You also won't be able to use VQ exhaust parts, since they are designed to fit within a frame that you don't have, so the entire exhaust system from headers to tips is going to have to be custom. Who do you have doing that?
- Steering components, the RX-8's steering rack is electrically operated, and you need the RX-8 ECU for that. You can't just leave it in place however, as it will be in the way for any subframe modifications, and probably too close to the VQ engine itself. Have you figured out if the 350z's steering components will fit within the now-modified RX-8 steering locations?
- Driveshaft, with a different transmission, chances are your driveshaft will no longer even fit into the end of the transmission, and if it does, it's probably the wrong length. What are you going to do about a custom driveshaft?
- Cooling, with all the changes to the front of the car, you won't be able to keep any of the RX-8's cooling system, either oil or coolant. But you can't just transplant the 350's cooling system simply due to dimensions. Take a good look at how much vertical space there is in the nose of a 350z vs an RX-8.
- Fueling, have you determined if the RX-8's fuel pump and fueling system can move enough fuel for the VQ?
- Suspension, you have added weight to the front of the car and lots more torque to the rear, how are you going to ensure that everything keeps working correctly and it's totally inappropriate now?
The guys are generally bashing on you for this because it's clear you haven't even considered these questions. For swapping any engine into the RX-8, any engine at all, expect to pay a minimum of $15,000. And that minimum is using the 13b from the RX-7 which is the closest compatibility to the RX-8's engine physically out of all the engines out there. a 20b is around $20,000, and it's dimensions are a bit further off, but still not horribly. Anything else completely different STARTS at $30,000.
The dealer was probably being sarcastic. If they were serious, then they are also lying.
"engine swaps" are not something simply done. They just aren't. For example, have you found the answers to these questions yet:
- Engine management, what ECU are you going to use to run the VQ engine? How are you going to get it to play nice with the RX-8 ECU that still needs to talk to non-engine stuff?
- Wiring harnesses and sensors, which sensors can you re-use from the RX-8 and which do you have to go to something else? How are you handling the splicing of the two wiring harnesses wire by wire?
- Engine placement, the VQ engine crankshaft exists at the bottom of the block, the Renesis e-shaft exists at the center of the block, this means that the VQ engine will sit physically higher in the engine bay, by quite a bit. How are you going to handle lowering the engine, transmission, and driveshaft to get it to stay under the hood?
- Transmission, which transmission are you going to use? Does it have the same length from bellhousing to shifter that the RX-8's transmission does? How are you going to ensure the shifter is located in the same spot?
- Front subframe, what are your plans to modify it, since the subframe and engine mounting points are totally different
- Firewall, how extensively are you prepared to cut up and re-make the firewall to fit the VQ?
- Exhaust, how are you going to handle exhaust routing, since you have 2 banks on the VQ, but the RX-8's frame only has allowance for the exhaust clearance on one side of the car? You also won't be able to use VQ exhaust parts, since they are designed to fit within a frame that you don't have, so the entire exhaust system from headers to tips is going to have to be custom. Who do you have doing that?
- Steering components, the RX-8's steering rack is electrically operated, and you need the RX-8 ECU for that. You can't just leave it in place however, as it will be in the way for any subframe modifications, and probably too close to the VQ engine itself. Have you figured out if the 350z's steering components will fit within the now-modified RX-8 steering locations?
- Driveshaft, with a different transmission, chances are your driveshaft will no longer even fit into the end of the transmission, and if it does, it's probably the wrong length. What are you going to do about a custom driveshaft?
- Cooling, with all the changes to the front of the car, you won't be able to keep any of the RX-8's cooling system, either oil or coolant. But you can't just transplant the 350's cooling system simply due to dimensions. Take a good look at how much vertical space there is in the nose of a 350z vs an RX-8.
- Fueling, have you determined if the RX-8's fuel pump and fueling system can move enough fuel for the VQ?
- Suspension, you have added weight to the front of the car and lots more torque to the rear, how are you going to ensure that everything keeps working correctly and it's totally inappropriate now?
The guys are generally bashing on you for this because it's clear you haven't even considered these questions. For swapping any engine into the RX-8, any engine at all, expect to pay a minimum of $15,000. And that minimum is using the 13b from the RX-7 which is the closest compatibility to the RX-8's engine physically out of all the engines out there. a 20b is around $20,000, and it's dimensions are a bit further off, but still not horribly. Anything else completely different STARTS at $30,000.
Last edited by RIWWP; 01-06-2013 at 07:24 AM.
01-06-2013, 07:56 AM
#30
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In my experience the only engine swaps that are "easy" are ones that are with other engines that are available for that make/model. For example a 2.8l v6 to a 4.3l v6 in an older chevy s10...you can literally go to any local boneyard and pick up all of the parts you need and just tear out the old and bolt in the new even there easy is a very subjective term. When it comes to swaps where there are almost no components that will play nicely with one another they quickly become about as easy as brain surgery. But like some have already said....if you have deep enough pockets almost anything can be done....just think what a stout cummins would do!
01-06-2013, 01:45 PM
#31
Super Moderator
/\ Precisely...
Here there were many young guys putting Rotaries in old school Mazda's, the models which Mazda offered 2 choices of engines, either a 4 cylinder banger or RE.
So you would see..
Mazda 808 converted to RX-3 (even with non standard 13B's, turbo's, etc.)
Mazda 929 to RX-4's
Mazda 121 to RX-5.
Capella 1600 (616) to RX-2..
Decades before this /\, it was the other way around, when the RE failed, owners would put in a Mazda banger!...I am sure the US had similar...
All fairly easy then, and electrics were so, so much easier with analog/mechanical speedo's, etc.
THE issue today for RX-8's like FD RX-7's are the design of engine bay and everything else was/is for Rotary only...but THE issue is cars electronics, particularly the 8, all specific and not Banger friendly...sure some may have been successful installing a banger, but not everything inside (interior) works...
Like a combination of 'some of these' Speedo, Gauges, AC, Heater, Air Bags, Elect Power Steering, power Door Locks...does Gear Stick align with Console, etc.etc.
Then the 'dynamics' of the car..suspension/handling/brakes.
RIWWP is right on...
Here there were many young guys putting Rotaries in old school Mazda's, the models which Mazda offered 2 choices of engines, either a 4 cylinder banger or RE.
So you would see..
Mazda 808 converted to RX-3 (even with non standard 13B's, turbo's, etc.)
Mazda 929 to RX-4's
Mazda 121 to RX-5.
Capella 1600 (616) to RX-2..
Decades before this /\, it was the other way around, when the RE failed, owners would put in a Mazda banger!...I am sure the US had similar...
All fairly easy then, and electrics were so, so much easier with analog/mechanical speedo's, etc.
THE issue today for RX-8's like FD RX-7's are the design of engine bay and everything else was/is for Rotary only...but THE issue is cars electronics, particularly the 8, all specific and not Banger friendly...sure some may have been successful installing a banger, but not everything inside (interior) works...
Like a combination of 'some of these' Speedo, Gauges, AC, Heater, Air Bags, Elect Power Steering, power Door Locks...does Gear Stick align with Console, etc.etc.
Then the 'dynamics' of the car..suspension/handling/brakes.
RIWWP is right on...
01-06-2013, 01:55 PM
#32
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Lucky,
The dealer was probably being sarcastic. If they were serious, then they are also lying.
"engine swaps" are not something simply done. They just aren't. For example, have you found the answers to these questions yet:
- Engine management, what ECU are you going to use to run the VQ engine? How are you going to get it to play nice with the RX-8 ECU that still needs to talk to non-engine stuff?
- Wiring harnesses and sensors, which sensors can you re-use from the RX-8 and which do you have to go to something else? How are you handling the splicing of the two wiring harnesses wire by wire?
- Engine placement, the VQ engine crankshaft exists at the bottom of the block, the Renesis e-shaft exists at the center of the block, this means that the VQ engine will sit physically higher in the engine bay, by quite a bit. How are you going to handle lowering the engine, transmission, and driveshaft to get it to stay under the hood?
- Transmission, which transmission are you going to use? Does it have the same length from bellhousing to shifter that the RX-8's transmission does? How are you going to ensure the shifter is located in the same spot?
- Front subframe, what are your plans to modify it, since the subframe and engine mounting points are totally different
- Firewall, how extensively are you prepared to cut up and re-make the firewall to fit the VQ?
- Exhaust, how are you going to handle exhaust routing, since you have 2 banks on the VQ, but the RX-8's frame only has allowance for the exhaust clearance on one side of the car? You also won't be able to use VQ exhaust parts, since they are designed to fit within a frame that you don't have, so the entire exhaust system from headers to tips is going to have to be custom. Who do you have doing that?
- Steering components, the RX-8's steering rack is electrically operated, and you need the RX-8 ECU for that. You can't just leave it in place however, as it will be in the way for any subframe modifications, and probably too close to the VQ engine itself. Have you figured out if the 350z's steering components will fit within the now-modified RX-8 steering locations?
- Driveshaft, with a different transmission, chances are your driveshaft will no longer even fit into the end of the transmission, and if it does, it's probably the wrong length. What are you going to do about a custom driveshaft?
- Cooling, with all the changes to the front of the car, you won't be able to keep any of the RX-8's cooling system, either oil or coolant. But you can't just transplant the 350's cooling system simply due to dimensions. Take a good look at how much vertical space there is in the nose of a 350z vs an RX-8.
- Fueling, have you determined if the RX-8's fuel pump and fueling system can move enough fuel for the VQ?
- Suspension, you have added weight to the front of the car and lots more torque to the rear, how are you going to ensure that everything keeps working correctly and it's totally inappropriate now?
The guys are generally bashing on you for this because it's clear you haven't even considered these questions. For swapping any engine into the RX-8, any engine at all, expect to pay a minimum of $15,000. And that minimum is using the 13b from the RX-7 which is the closest compatibility to the RX-8's engine physically out of all the engines out there. a 20b is around $20,000, and it's dimensions are a bit further off, but still not horribly. Anything else completely different STARTS at $30,000.
The dealer was probably being sarcastic. If they were serious, then they are also lying.
"engine swaps" are not something simply done. They just aren't. For example, have you found the answers to these questions yet:
- Engine management, what ECU are you going to use to run the VQ engine? How are you going to get it to play nice with the RX-8 ECU that still needs to talk to non-engine stuff?
- Wiring harnesses and sensors, which sensors can you re-use from the RX-8 and which do you have to go to something else? How are you handling the splicing of the two wiring harnesses wire by wire?
- Engine placement, the VQ engine crankshaft exists at the bottom of the block, the Renesis e-shaft exists at the center of the block, this means that the VQ engine will sit physically higher in the engine bay, by quite a bit. How are you going to handle lowering the engine, transmission, and driveshaft to get it to stay under the hood?
- Transmission, which transmission are you going to use? Does it have the same length from bellhousing to shifter that the RX-8's transmission does? How are you going to ensure the shifter is located in the same spot?
- Front subframe, what are your plans to modify it, since the subframe and engine mounting points are totally different
- Firewall, how extensively are you prepared to cut up and re-make the firewall to fit the VQ?
- Exhaust, how are you going to handle exhaust routing, since you have 2 banks on the VQ, but the RX-8's frame only has allowance for the exhaust clearance on one side of the car? You also won't be able to use VQ exhaust parts, since they are designed to fit within a frame that you don't have, so the entire exhaust system from headers to tips is going to have to be custom. Who do you have doing that?
- Steering components, the RX-8's steering rack is electrically operated, and you need the RX-8 ECU for that. You can't just leave it in place however, as it will be in the way for any subframe modifications, and probably too close to the VQ engine itself. Have you figured out if the 350z's steering components will fit within the now-modified RX-8 steering locations?
- Driveshaft, with a different transmission, chances are your driveshaft will no longer even fit into the end of the transmission, and if it does, it's probably the wrong length. What are you going to do about a custom driveshaft?
- Cooling, with all the changes to the front of the car, you won't be able to keep any of the RX-8's cooling system, either oil or coolant. But you can't just transplant the 350's cooling system simply due to dimensions. Take a good look at how much vertical space there is in the nose of a 350z vs an RX-8.
- Fueling, have you determined if the RX-8's fuel pump and fueling system can move enough fuel for the VQ?
- Suspension, you have added weight to the front of the car and lots more torque to the rear, how are you going to ensure that everything keeps working correctly and it's totally inappropriate now?
The guys are generally bashing on you for this because it's clear you haven't even considered these questions. For swapping any engine into the RX-8, any engine at all, expect to pay a minimum of $15,000. And that minimum is using the 13b from the RX-7 which is the closest compatibility to the RX-8's engine physically out of all the engines out there. a 20b is around $20,000, and it's dimensions are a bit further off, but still not horribly. Anything else completely different STARTS at $30,000.
01-06-2013, 02:12 PM
#33
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Everything i listed is how they are. Again, NOTHING is impossible. You just have to figure out every single piece. It's all a matter of time, money, and know-how.
I wouldn't even guess at the cost of the swaps in Pakistan. Different economical scale and all, different availability of parts, probably lots of labor from friends that doesn't have a price tag, etc...
I wouldn't even guess at the cost of the swaps in Pakistan. Different economical scale and all, different availability of parts, probably lots of labor from friends that doesn't have a price tag, etc...
01-06-2013, 02:27 PM
#34
I would say in Pakistan, rather that trying to integrate everything, they get the things they need working. The stuff not needed either gets changed over to older analog stuff or just not worried about. I'm betting there isn't a single original piece that makes up their dash. Just a piece of alumimum with a tach, oil pressure, water temp and fuel level gauge.
01-06-2013, 02:29 PM
#35
Super Moderator
/\ Again WHY Bother (RIWWP), the economies of scale gets to the point where you might as well buy a different car with the engine capacity you want in the size of car you want...spending thousands $$'s on a car for most when the end result is some things not working or having to spend even more $$'s to get them to work is just senseless...
To the point of re-sale (at some stage) is even more silly with a vehicle almost worthless as you are restricting your market of buyers with a ''Frankenstein car''...one would never recoup their investment.
Give your money to charity...
To the point of re-sale (at some stage) is even more silly with a vehicle almost worthless as you are restricting your market of buyers with a ''Frankenstein car''...one would never recoup their investment.
Give your money to charity...
01-06-2013, 06:51 PM
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I got $5k and another $2k that i will have in a month so thats total $7k to spend..my rx8 has 152k miles and it is time to swap engines..what do you guys recommend me to do? i live in miami,fl..how much will mazda sell me their rebuild engines? $2500? how much in labor? another $2k-3k? either that or sell my rx8 and just get a 350z but it is only for a 2 seater car..im always having girls in my car so a 2 seater car will not benefit me and i cant get myself into so much debt because im buying a house so buying a new car is out of my league
Last edited by Luckyboii69; 01-06-2013 at 06:58 PM.
01-06-2013, 07:07 PM
#40
I got $5k and another $2k that i will have in a month so thats total $7k to spend..my rx8 has 152k miles and it is time to swap engines..what do you guys recommend me to do? i live in miami,fl..how much will mazda sell me their rebuild engines? $2500? how much in labor? another $2k-3k? either that or sell my rx8 and just get a 350z but it is only for a 2 seater car..im always having girls in my car so a 2 seater car will not benefit me and i cannot get my sell into so much debt because im buying a house so buying a new car is out of my league
im pretty sure to swap a new (or rebuilt) renny in there can be done without paying 2500 for labor. That to me is a little to much. Again I am talking about a renesis motor and just labor to take the old out and get the new one(which you would provide) installed. It all depends where you take it ofcourse.
01-06-2013, 07:17 PM
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im pretty sure to swap a new (or rebuilt) renny in there can be done without paying 2500 for labor. That to me is a little to much. Again I am talking about a renesis motor and just labor to take the old out and get the new one(which you would provide) installed. It all depends where you take it ofcourse.
01-06-2013, 07:31 PM
#42
The X is silent
I got $5k and another $2k that i will have in a month so thats total $7k to spend..my rx8 has 152k miles and it is time to swap engines..what do you guys recommend me to do? i live in miami,fl..how much will mazda sell me their rebuild engines? $2500? how much in labor? another $2k-3k? either that or sell my rx8 and just get a 350z but it is only for a 2 seater car..im always having girls in my car so a 2 seater car will not benefit me and i cant get myself into so much debt because im buying a house so buying a new car is out of my league
01-06-2013, 08:06 PM
#43
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Lucky,
A Mazda Reman, if you just buy it from them with no warranty or anything, is about $1,800 to $2,500, depending on what kind of price a dealer will give you and if you can get any discounts under Mazda's Motorsports program. If his was under warranty, then he wouldn't have paid anything for the engine.
However, Mazda remans are pretty crappy in quality on average. For roughly $3,000 + your old engine you can get a solid, dependable, high quality rebuilt engine from Mazmart, with several Mazmart improvements already upgraded on it. Barring a cooling system failure (which would kill any rotary), I would fully expect Mazmart's engines to last at least 100,000 miles. Mazmart is in Georgia, which isn't absurdly far for you, and can probably do the pull and re-install for you for a very reasonable price if you drive the car up there.
For $5,000, you are entering REALLY high quality rebuilds with additional work such as different seals and porting work.
Any decent repair shop should be able to do the motor replacement for about $1,000 or less in labor. Many could get it done in far less time than that. One shop I know charges about $250 to pull, $250 to install (MD, your IP says Kansas, not Miami though). Dealer prices are JACKED through the roof on so much stuff, don't take their prices as a baseline for anything.
Or yes, sell the RX-8, add that cash to your current cash, and get a mid-level mileage G35 for less than $10k.
A Mazda Reman, if you just buy it from them with no warranty or anything, is about $1,800 to $2,500, depending on what kind of price a dealer will give you and if you can get any discounts under Mazda's Motorsports program. If his was under warranty, then he wouldn't have paid anything for the engine.
However, Mazda remans are pretty crappy in quality on average. For roughly $3,000 + your old engine you can get a solid, dependable, high quality rebuilt engine from Mazmart, with several Mazmart improvements already upgraded on it. Barring a cooling system failure (which would kill any rotary), I would fully expect Mazmart's engines to last at least 100,000 miles. Mazmart is in Georgia, which isn't absurdly far for you, and can probably do the pull and re-install for you for a very reasonable price if you drive the car up there.
For $5,000, you are entering REALLY high quality rebuilds with additional work such as different seals and porting work.
Any decent repair shop should be able to do the motor replacement for about $1,000 or less in labor. Many could get it done in far less time than that. One shop I know charges about $250 to pull, $250 to install (MD, your IP says Kansas, not Miami though). Dealer prices are JACKED through the roof on so much stuff, don't take their prices as a baseline for anything.
Or yes, sell the RX-8, add that cash to your current cash, and get a mid-level mileage G35 for less than $10k.
01-06-2013, 11:46 PM
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Lucky,
A Mazda Reman, if you just buy it from them with no warranty or anything, is about $1,800 to $2,500, depending on what kind of price a dealer will give you and if you can get any discounts under Mazda's Motorsports program. If his was under warranty, then he wouldn't have paid anything for the engine.
However, Mazda remans are pretty crappy in quality on average. For roughly $3,000 + your old engine you can get a solid, dependable, high quality rebuilt engine from Mazmart, with several Mazmart improvements already upgraded on it. Barring a cooling system failure (which would kill any rotary), I would fully expect Mazmart's engines to last at least 100,000 miles. Mazmart is in Georgia, which isn't absurdly far for you, and can probably do the pull and re-install for you for a very reasonable price if you drive the car up there.
For $5,000, you are entering REALLY high quality rebuilds with additional work such as different seals and porting work.
Any decent repair shop should be able to do the motor replacement for about $1,000 or less in labor. Many could get it done in far less time than that. One shop I know charges about $250 to pull, $250 to install (MD, your IP says Kansas, not Miami though). Dealer prices are JACKED through the roof on so much stuff, don't take their prices as a baseline for anything.
Or yes, sell the RX-8, add that cash to your current cash, and get a mid-level mileage G35 for less than $10k.
A Mazda Reman, if you just buy it from them with no warranty or anything, is about $1,800 to $2,500, depending on what kind of price a dealer will give you and if you can get any discounts under Mazda's Motorsports program. If his was under warranty, then he wouldn't have paid anything for the engine.
However, Mazda remans are pretty crappy in quality on average. For roughly $3,000 + your old engine you can get a solid, dependable, high quality rebuilt engine from Mazmart, with several Mazmart improvements already upgraded on it. Barring a cooling system failure (which would kill any rotary), I would fully expect Mazmart's engines to last at least 100,000 miles. Mazmart is in Georgia, which isn't absurdly far for you, and can probably do the pull and re-install for you for a very reasonable price if you drive the car up there.
For $5,000, you are entering REALLY high quality rebuilds with additional work such as different seals and porting work.
Any decent repair shop should be able to do the motor replacement for about $1,000 or less in labor. Many could get it done in far less time than that. One shop I know charges about $250 to pull, $250 to install (MD, your IP says Kansas, not Miami though). Dealer prices are JACKED through the roof on so much stuff, don't take their prices as a baseline for anything.
Or yes, sell the RX-8, add that cash to your current cash, and get a mid-level mileage G35 for less than $10k.
Last edited by Luckyboii69; 01-07-2013 at 12:42 PM.
01-07-2013, 07:23 AM
#45
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Yes, contact Mazmart and discuss engine options and prices, including the option of driving your 8 up to them and having them pull it. DO NOT buy a reman from Mazda on your own dime...
Here are some recent threads for you to read that will show the risk you are taking if you buy a reman on your own dime:
Reman dead on arrival, Mazda refused to cover: https://www.rx8club.com/trouble-shoo...-mazda-238218/
3 remans blown within 1,000 miles each, dealer installed: https://www.rx8club.com/major-horsep...ngines-238522/
https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...an-22k-241414/
Getting a reman for free under warranty is worth it, since it is...well...free. I wouldn't pay for a reman though.
Here are some recent threads for you to read that will show the risk you are taking if you buy a reman on your own dime:
Reman dead on arrival, Mazda refused to cover: https://www.rx8club.com/trouble-shoo...-mazda-238218/
3 remans blown within 1,000 miles each, dealer installed: https://www.rx8club.com/major-horsep...ngines-238522/
https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...an-22k-241414/
Getting a reman for free under warranty is worth it, since it is...well...free. I wouldn't pay for a reman though.
01-07-2013, 05:43 PM
#47
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Expo1's Mazmart reman lasted less than 50,000 IIRC from what he mentioned to me before he passed away. Also, IIRC, Mazmarts engines are just Mazda remans with their RE products installed now no?
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 01-07-2013 at 05:46 PM.
01-07-2013, 07:02 PM
#49
/\ Again WHY Bother (RIWWP), the economies of scale gets to the point where you might as well buy a different car with the engine capacity you want in the size of car you want...spending thousands $$'s on a car for most when the end result is some things not working or having to spend even more $$'s to get them to work is just senseless...
To the point of re-sale (at some stage) is even more silly with a vehicle almost worthless as you are restricting your market of buyers with a ''Frankenstein car''...one would never recoup their investment.
Give your money to charity...
To the point of re-sale (at some stage) is even more silly with a vehicle almost worthless as you are restricting your market of buyers with a ''Frankenstein car''...one would never recoup their investment.
Give your money to charity...
what I noticed is that, everybody claim their "swap" is so succeessful and giving them ZERO problems, but at the end of the day 90% of them end up selling their car secretly on ebay kind of crap. Why ? Cuz they keep facing "issues" and up to the point that the car "bored" them so they sell it. ROFL.
Im one of those people who hate swaps (bite me bitches!) , I know nothing is impossible, but it's just silly.