Ramblings on Manual vs Auto

pelucidor · 10-09-2002, 04:21 PM

Since I moved to the USA 6 years ago I have only driven automatics (except the old Integra I had for my first year or so). That's about 150,000 miles in automatics and all of these vehicles were pretty good. Eventually I forgot why people bothered with manual gearboxes.

Then a few months ago I drove an S2000. My god! The short throw (< 2" between gears) and ultra-smooth clutch clutch action shocked me - I ran through all 6 years (red-lining the first 3) flawlessly not having driven a stick in years. I hungered for more and test drove manual equipped vehciles such as the 330i, Z3, Boxster, various Miata's, IS300 etc.

Sadly the only one to impress as much as the S2000 was an old 5 speed Miata (better than a new 6-speed I tried). The BMW and Lexus trannies were good but not mind-blowing, and the Porsche's clutch-action was awful. I am expecting nigh-on perfection for the RX-8.

But this all reminded me that shifting your own gears can be real pleasure and not a pain - much as I view skiing as ecstacy rather than my parent's view of wasting money and time to go up and down a hill several times.
And manumatic (or shiftronic, tiptronic, e-shift etc - I've tried many) is not a substitute - you need to control the clutch with your left foot and have a hefty stick in your hand

What do others think?

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Hercules · 10-09-2002, 04:31 PM

I think it's hard to have fun in an auto/manumatic

Grimace · 10-09-2002, 04:42 PM

I think you're both right. I also would add that a lot of people get scared away from driving manuals when the first manual-tranny car they hop in has horrible shift feel, horrible clutch action, or both. There are some cars that work better as an automatic, simply because the manual transmission is so poorly done.
But to slide behind the wheel of a Miata or S2000 and "shift yer own gears" is an experience no one should miss, especially if they are willing to dismiss a manual transmission simply because of hills/traffic in their area.
I had no idea how bad my stick shift is in my car before I hopped in a 10 year old (!) Miata.
I've since tried a lot of stick shifts, and none compare to the S2K or Miata. I haven't tried BMW, but the consensus is that its good but not as good as a Miata. RSX's are supposed to have the best shift feel for a FWD car. NSX is supposed to be well done too, but, alas, never been in one of these. :D
I'm sure the RX-8 won't disappoint, since the master of shift feel (Aisin) is making the gearbox for it.

Quick_lude · 10-09-2002, 05:03 PM

The only way I'd opt for a manumatic is if it was an SMG like in the Ferrari. Basically a transmission that would let me shift at redline, bounce off the revlimiter, match revs during a downshift.. Otherwise manual it will be!

boowana · 10-09-2002, 05:47 PM

Look for a sequential shifter some time in the future on the RX-8.:p

Donny Boy · 10-09-2002, 06:27 PM

I must say I agree 100%, actually, I agree more. There's nothing more pleasurable (almost) than driving with a manual. Manumatics just dont do it. For those out there who have not driven a manual car have not really enjoyed driving. Do yourself a favor, go and drive a manual, it's easier than you think, and more enjoyable than an automatic, or a manumatic.

pelucidor · 10-09-2002, 06:30 PM

I have never driven true 'clutchless' manuals such as a Ferrari or even an SMG M3 - the closest was an auto Toyota MR2 which was boring. But I have driven many, many manumatics - including Acura CL, TL, RSX, Audi A4, A6 2.7t, A6 3.0 CVT, BMW 330i, BMW 540i, Jaguar S-Type 4.0, Lexus IS300, Lexus GS430, Chrysler 300M, Infiniti G35, Lincoln LS V8.....

But even the best tiptronic I've tried (probably Infiniti G35) which is very fast and sticks to the gear you select (shifts at redline, bounces off the rev-limiter if you want etc) is not the same as a manual. My left foot is bored - where is the art of clutch-control and finding the biting point etc.

My current IS300 has e-shift - two buttons on the steering wheel for up/down (but not at all intuitive as the gear you select is the highest gear and all gears below are also used by the computer as needed

). An interesting novelty for a few weeks, but driving in full automatic mode also lets you go to redline and will drop down 1-2 gears almost instantly in POWER mode, so why bother to use the e-shift... Most manumatics are also very good pure automatics so shifting for yourself quickly becomes an unnecessary chore.

To really enjoy the car I think you need a real manual gearbox with clutch - assuming they are both exceptionally good. However I would sooner have a good auto (even without tiptronic) than an average manual (Mercedes anyone).

But now I know exceptional manuals really exists at reasonable prices (Miata, S2000, apparently G35C, hopefully RX-8 etc) my next car will have to be a manual.

Sputnik · 10-09-2002, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pelucidor
I have never driven true 'clutchless' manuals such as a Ferrari or even an SMG M3 - the closest was an auto Toyota MR2 which was boring...

Was it an MR2 with an automatic, or one with the SMT, which actually is a true 'clutchless' manual?

---jps

B-Nez · 10-09-2002, 08:10 PM

My '93 240SX has a great tranny, also (at least until I fried my clutch master cylinder, anyway...).

BryanH · 10-09-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grimace
NSX is supposed to be well done too, but, alas, never been in one of these. :D

They're pretty darn nice. :D

Grimace · 10-09-2002, 10:05 PM

I think what it comes down to, is that with a good clutch and a shifter, you have a closer bond to the machine. You and your car can dance, and you can lead. With an automatic, the car leads, and you shuffle around in a circle and wait until the song is over.

Yes, I've had a beer or two. :P

Hercules · 10-09-2002, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Quick_lude
The only way I'd opt for a manumatic is if it was an SMG like in the Ferrari. Basically a transmission that would let me shift at redline, bounce off the revlimiter, match revs during a downshift.. Otherwise manual it will be!

Honestly though, for me anyways... that takes all the fun and challenge out of driving the car. Half the fun is the physical motion of just rowing through the gears.

The other fun of course comes in the fact that you can modulate the clutch and in return the car can do amazing things! Donuts, 360s, 180s, tail kickouts (ala oversteer), etc.. Imagine doing a reverse 180 in an SMG equipped car. It's near impossible... But with stickshift... get the car in reverse, whip it around, and while clutch is engaged and car's turning, whip it into second for a smooth motion that once you do it... you would never go to SMG over manual

Hercules · 10-09-2002, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pelucidor
I have never driven true 'clutchless' manuals such as a Ferrari or even an SMG M3 - the closest was an auto Toyota MR2 which was boring. But I have driven many, many manumatics - including Acura CL, TL, RSX, Audi A4, A6 2.7t, A6 3.0 CVT, BMW 330i, BMW 540i, Jaguar S-Type 4.0, Lexus IS300, Lexus GS430, Chrysler 300M, Infiniti G35, Lincoln LS V8.....

But even the best tiptronic I've tried (probably Infiniti G35) which is very fast and sticks to the gear you select (shifts at redline, bounces off the rev-limiter if you want etc) is not the same as a manual. My left foot is bored - where is the art of clutch-control and finding the biting point etc.

My current IS300 has e-shift - two buttons on the steering wheel for up/down (but not at all intuitive as the gear you select is the highest gear and all gears below are also used by the computer as needed ). An interesting novelty for a few weeks, but driving in full automatic mode also lets you go to redline and will drop down 1-2 gears almost instantly in POWER mode, so why bother to use the e-shift... Most manumatics are also very good pure automatics so shifting for yourself quickly becomes an unnecessary chore.

To really enjoy the car I think you need a real manual gearbox with clutch - assuming they are both exceptionally good. However I would sooner have a good auto (even without tiptronic) than an average manual (Mercedes anyone).

But now I know exceptional manuals really exists at reasonable prices (Miata, S2000, apparently G35C, hopefully RX-8 etc) my next car will have to be a manual.

AHHHH are you mad? Maybe they fixed this but.. I drove the G35 sedan and I noticed a SIGNIFIGANT LAG in the changing of gears via tiptronic.. You make the shift and a second later it will kick in. That's insane, it was horribly slow to engage.

Maybe they fixed it but I doubt that

pelucidor · 10-09-2002, 11:18 PM

SPUTNIK:
The MR2 was an SMT. I thought the manual MR2 was a blast to drive in comparison (but not a nice as the Miata).

HERCULES:
I didn't say the G35 tiptronic was as fast as rowing your own - but it is faster than other pseudo-manuals I've tried. I tend to mentally time the shift by pushing the gearstick/button and then imagining lifting off the clutch (maybe add another 0.5 secs if I'm not rushing) and then stop timing. So I am probably less picky about the lag than most people. Even so if I somehow end up hating the RX-8 and end up getting a G35 I will buy a manual rather than the auto (the Coupe's 6MT transmission has had phenomenal reviews).

The Mad Catz 2 steering wheel attached to my XBOX changes gears INSTANTLY when I hit the paddles or gearstick in Sega GT, but in the real world nothing short of an SMG transmission costing over $4k+ will be close to that speed, and (sadly) I don't expect it to be.

Quote:

Originally posted by Hercules
The other fun of course comes in the fact that you can modulate the clutch and in return the car can do amazing things! Donuts, 360s, 180s, tail kickouts (ala oversteer), etc.. Imagine doing a reverse 180 in an SMG equipped car. It's near impossible... But with stickshift... get the car in reverse, whip it around, and while clutch is engaged and car's turning, whip it into second for a smooth motion that once you do it...

That reverse 180 sounds like fun - do you give lessons?
Actually I promised myself some time at a driving school once I'd bought my S2000. Now that I need four seats and am getting an RX-8 instead (probably) I should still learn to drive properly...

Interesting anecdote: a new salesguy joined my old company and the two of us go to Florida to meet with Lockheed Martin. It's after midnight, we're both really tired, we rent some barge at the airport and he drives. Within a few minutes I realize he is a VASTLY better driver than I am - he carries on a complex conversation whilst being aware of EVERYTHING around us and driving a huge unfamiliar car in bad visibility (heavy rain). I ask him how come he drives so well. It turns out he is an SCCA instructor and owns an old 911 as a dedicated track car. I've been driving for over 15 years and I humbly admit I've still got a lot to learn....

Quick_lude · 10-09-2002, 11:34 PM

A series of good driving courses, basic, auto-x and track is one of the best investemens any driver can make. I've done two, basic car control and basic track school. Learned a few things, but the best part was time on the track with an instructor. It really opened my eyes to a few things.

Hercules · 10-10-2002, 02:40 AM

Quote:

That reverse 180 sounds like fun - do you give lessons?

Hehe, it's not that hard

I'm tired now but I'll give you the low-down on a few tricks that I do for fun.. keep in mind they do tend to burn tires faster (that's why I rotate every oil change), but when you master it... it's really neat to show your friends. I had one sit in the car with me one time while I did some fun handbrake pulls in my Millenia (which unfortunately is FWD and Automatic, so it's VERY limiting, thus the need for the handbrake)... man he was flipping out :P

One thing I have to know.. my friends ask me to teach them and I show them.. then I put them behind the wheel of their car and ask to see them try it.. and they chicken out. Gotta have some daring in you to try it

It's a weird feeling initially but do it enough... it'll be natural

pelucidor · 10-10-2002, 03:35 PM

I might chicken out too if it is in my new pride and joy. Perhaps I'll practice in a rental vehicle or at a driving school on their cars until I know what I'm doing. I would practice in the K-Mart carpark nearby but the Houston cops don't seem to like that...

PatrickB · 10-10-2002, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pelucidor
I would practice in the K-Mart carpark nearby but the Houston cops don't seem to like that...

"carpark"? You ain't from 'round here, are yeh, Son?

-Patrick