BlueEyes

Let me first state I am not a ageist( ) nor racist in the least amount. I read a print article the other day about two cops who stopped a young man (age 19) who was driving a Mercedes SL55. The reason they stopped him was beceause they admittedly were racial/age profiling. Theie thinking being that someone that young, black white or otherwise shouldnt be driving a car like that. They said the car was done up in such a fashion that odds were good the car did not belong to a parent, it had spinners and some other stuff. Now the police found a briefcase full of cocaine in this kids possesion. It was later decided that they could not press charges against the kid because of the reason they stopped him. Although, he did lose his cocaine. My question is, do you think it is wrong to impliment racial/age profiling in such extreme cases. I don't want cops running around pulling over people just because of the colour of their skin. But, regardless of their skin colour, a child driving around in a nearly 200,000 dollar car (CDN) with spinners, huge stereo, wearing lots of jewlery etc seems a little odd. The police were right, so I was pissed when I heard he got to go free. Just something I was thinking about.

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sea-rx8

Never....My friend got a H.S. graduation present from his dad....brand new Lexus GS400....and enough cash to deck it out. And we would get pulled over for the same thing all the time..."no one that young could have a car like that"....well there are a lot of spoiled kids out there...and more and more on the way.....so no....Profiling = BAD

Even when the cops are right....due process says that there should be another way to find the truth ...other than violating the constitution.

Cattywampus

Well in my opinion there is always a ot more to a story. Based on this it's hard to tell whether they were right or wrong. There are very few cops that are racist/ageist. But 98% of cops are prejudice along with 99.99% of the world. I don't know how the charges where dropped just because of the racuist/ageist comment. It doesn't matter the reason of the stop it's the evidence that was found. Now if the kid did not give consent to have the car searched then it's an illegal search, if a dog was not brought out. Usually when someone says ''no you can not search my car'' they will just bring a dog and if he gives a signal your car will be searched. But anyway, I would not stop him just because of the profile of the kid. If any cop has common sense he will think about what we call ''probable cause'' and use that to pull him over then use ''reasonable suspicion'' to find the crack so it's a good search. But I wasn't there so I agree with you they should not have let the charges drop.

BlueEyes

hmm, interesting. What about racist/ageist/location profiling. The part of the city that this happened in is not the type of place that has spoiled kids.

Cattywampus

Maybe he is a sucessful young man. Maybe an athlete.

73JPS

This is not true in our area (and since Blue Eyes posted this story, I am assuming that it took place here in the Toronto area...)

Cops are well within their rights to search a pulled over vehicle: what they cannot search without probable cause, however, is the person who was in the vehicle.

BlueEyes

Maybe. Although I don't know any 19 year old atheletes making that type of money in Canada.

My point is that, while their maybe a % of people in this situation that actually earned or were spoiled enough to get a car like this at age 19, odds would probably say 50/50. Wouldn't you want law enforcement to gamble on a 50/50 bet if it means you have a 50/50 chance of catching a drug dealer or other criminal?

Speed-ER doc

Excellent thread idea.

Hornet

Here is a quick what if! If a young person legally has an expensive car and every police officer he sees pulls him over due to suspicion of him being a drug dealer, would that not be a violation if his rights? I know that there are some nights in the area where I live that I see about 5 to 10 police cars in the last 1 1/2 mile of my drive home. Imagine half of them not knowing you were pulled over then shortly later you get stopped again (not saying this would be exactly how things would be but still just think about if it were like that). It's not right!

I will say however that I am torn. They did something wrong and found something wrong. Maybe they should figure out which is the lesser of the 2 evils!

Cattywampus

We can search any car as long as we have a k-9 come out and do it's search. If the dog gives it signal to it's owner then we have our probable cause to conduct a search. So there is no point in telling a cop ''no you can't search my car''. This person could of been a minor league baseball player, hockey player, business person, or just inherited money from a relative. 19 isn't that young anymore. I am 21 and in law enforcement. I have the mindset of any adult and very often smarter than your average adult when it comes to my carer field. People get a misconception when they see me pull up to a scene. This guy could be anything. I wouldn't profile that way. I would wait to he turned without a blinker. Then that's probable cause to pull him over

73JPS

I would hope that any respectable law enforcement agency would have its personnel trained to look out for suspicious or unusual situations.

I would think that the combination of things described in BlueEye's story would qualify as at least an unusual situation, and I would like to think that even with an equivalently aged white youth at the wheel, the vehicle would have been checked.

Lets face it, there are times when suspicious looking situations are in fact underneath quite normal, and times when suspicious looking situations are an indication of a deeper problem. So what's the problem with law enforcement checking it out? If you're clean, you're clean, and you have nothing to bitch about. If you get caught doing something untoward, you get what you deserve, and you shouldn't be allowed to use some bull**t "I was profiled" excuse to get out of it.

So, then, the way I see this going with all this anti-profiling crap is that "suspicious situations" will not get checked out as often, because law enforcement will be afraid they will be whacked with charges of profiling. Doesn't make sense to me.

Cattywampus

Well we all wish it was that easy. Unfortunetly we have state attorneys that love to sue for anything thay can to get money for. Also L.E. agencies don't like to go to court. They don't need a bad rep. However are agency doesn't deal with that. We are highly trained and skilled at what we do. I would be shocked if something like that ever happened here. I pull over kids all the time. Only because the majority of them are stupid. They don't know any better. They don't even know 90% of the laws on the road.

73JPS

Yeah, well, things are simple in my world :p

TODreamer

racial profiling just aids in breading a smarter, more clever kind of criminal

73JPS

Hmmm... breaded criminals... is that like breaded chicken?

DreRX8

Well, I've been followed before because of my age/race and what I may have been driving. My other car is a Millenia S on chrome and before that I had an FD; my mom also has an SLK so when I drive that I have had side looks by police. The funny thing is I am always 'targeted' by black cops (I'm black) except for when I went to school in racist SE Louisiana where Jefferson Parish police followed me religiously. I don't think that it is an ethical practice at all; however I believe it is one that is counterintuitive to stop--kind of like the backlash against middle eastern nationalities after 9/11.

guy321

When I was younger, I drove run down POS cars that were very messy inside.. the cops ALWAYS called the dogs out whenever they pulled me over for anything..

I liked it actually, I would get a 3 hour break from work, or whatever I was doing and had an excuse.

Feras

dont forget justice is supposed to be blind...if there is suspicious activity by all means investigate...however suspicion needs to be defined.. for example a young black man driving a bmw 7 series in a normal fashion is not a suspicious activity. A 45 year old white male driving the same car for example in a very slow deliberate manner with perhaps even a couple lights on or something in the car is a suspicious activity...9 times out of 10 which one gets pulled over???

guy321

There is SOOO much more to it than that. It isn't an issue of young/black or old/white. It's thier mannerisms, thier dress, do they appear nervous.. does it seem likely they would be driving such a car under normal circumstances. It's not one or two things that makes you stand out.

TODreamer

I think Profiling is just a cop excuse to be LAZY... they don't want to actually investigate or do any sort of "police work" god forbid... thats just too much work... so they profile based on assumption???? and what if they are wrong?? "oh well, I'm sure this 'gangbanger' did something anyways and deserves to be locked up" WTF. Land of the free? are we really all that free?... and like I said, acts like that will just breed a smarter criminal... while cops are out there chasing young/minorities in Benzes and middle eastern looking people... Criminals ACTUALLY commiting crimes can be sliding by right under their noses. What does a criminal look like? hell If I or anyone else knows... News flash... they are not always young or/and minorities wearing track suits with gold chains on

Wow, its nice to know my tax dollars are going towards that

Sorry to Police34 and Chameleon and any other cops that may be on the board. I'm not trying to take a shot at your profession or to generalize, but I just think that profiling is wrong and a waste of resource.

Pkskull77

This could not be further from the truth. In the United States the Supreme Court has stated that in order for the police to make a “Terry Stop” (Terry vs. Ohio) they must have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that a crime has been committed. Many states give their citizens further protection by requiring the police have probable cause to make a traffic stop. In any case, a Terry Stop (which is a brief investigatory detention), can not lead to a search without an arrest or further probable cause leading the cops to believe there is contraband in the car.

Under no circumstance can a person’s race, be used to obtain reasonable suspicion, or probable cause. There are a few exceptions allowing a person’s age to lead to rs or pc., the most notable being to young to drive or out past curfew. However, most courts would not accept the argument that the “guy looked to young to be driving an expensive car.”

In the situation at hand the cops were just dumb, they should have waited for the guy to make a mistake. Lets face it, cops are going to profile, and people get stopped for “driving while white,” or “driving while black.” The difference is a smart cop will pick his target based upon unconstitutional factors, but make a stop based upon a traffic violation. This form of profiling is generally legal. It works well because most people make little mistakes while driving, therefore giving the cops a reason to stop them. Once the stop has been made its fairly easy to reach the factors necessary to complete a search.

The justice in all of this is simple. If the stop was pretextual, you can generally beat it. In any case, if you are trafficking in drugs, don’t complain when you get caught. The law is not a tool that should be used by criminals to escape liability; instead it is should protect the innocent from obtrusive governmental invasions. I don’t feel bad for the kid, and to be quite honest with you it’s a shame that he got away with it. Lets face it, he was foolish to traffic drugs in that car, he had to know it was going to draw attention.

guy321

Hmmmm, so all those benzes I saw in N.O. that were parked in the middle of housing projects where most of those people have hand me down toilet paper were just the product of a young man delivering pizza right?


Give me a break. Why is it that every time a young minority gets pulled over it is a racial incident or racial profiling???!

A kid WITH A GUN in his hand leaving the scene of a robbery gets shot by a cop and the ENTIRE local community is in uproar because they say it's police brutality!? This has happened in BOTH N.O. and in St Pete here in Fl...

Regardless of race. If you model yourself after people who glorify criminal activities in public (gangsta rappers) then you are making yourself a target for law enforcement.

True there are ALOT of criminals out there that ARE smart and don't get busted because they either pay off law enforcement, or decide to stay low key... It's much more difficult for law enforcement to catch them.. It doesn't mean they aren't trying.

However, your average patrol officer isn't tasked primarily with that responsibility.


One night, I was driving home from my friend's club.. I was pulled over for running a red (yellow) light.. it was about midnight.. Clubs in N.O. don't get hopping till midnight.. I was there to fix his computers.. The cop asked me where I was coming from and I mentioned the name of this bar... IMMEDIATELY he had me step away from the vehicle and they asked to search the car.. which I let them do.

That club has a fairly high rate of drug activity, despite my friend's attempt to keep it out.. This was the same place where a friend of mine took a 12 gauge blast to the chest. Was I inconvinenced? Yes, did they have the right to immediately suspect me of having drugs? Probably not.. but I feel they were doing their best to protect the public at large.

Cattywampus

Well I am glad you missed what the original article was about. Anyway Your comments on ''Terry law'' only works in a good city where everyone meets and greats their neighbors and everyone is related. Do you know any place like that. I already said they should of waited for a mistake to be done i.e. no blinker. That's probable cause to make a stop. Probable cause always lead to reasonable suspicion. When I pull someone over and I feel they are hiding something I will do a search. There are so many laws that people just are'nt aware of that they should know. You are right in most of your statement. Terry's law really has no meaning. Probable cause was in affect before Terry's law ever came to be known. Every state has probable cause. It's how things get done. Probable cause can lead to an arrest to just about anyone. Probable cause is the lights by you license plate to be out. Anything is probable cause. You have basically said everything I did in my last 2 post. I do agree with you on most of you post

Cattywampus

I agree with that. You're right. But it is not so easy to pick one out of a crowd and start to question them. Profiling is wrong. But then what about being prejudice. Isn't it the same. Everyone is prejudice in some way. If a cop is not prejudice while at work he/she could be killed.

TODreamer

1) When a cop sees somebody driving on the street.... they have NO idea where they live

2) Even if they know where they live, they cant just be pulling over people for technically NO reason. That is a huge waste of resource and I dont want to have to fund dumb **** like that


hmmm well lets see... your driving along in a decent car.... cop pulls you over, hassles you and then lets you go because he obviously has nothing on you. I don't know about you guy321 but that sounds like profiling to me.

Really guy? geez I wish I lived in the same "cut and dry" world you do... really I do. Dude, I've been harrassed by cops, SPECIFICALLY searched for drugs out of a group of people ....I'm the LAST guy they should be worrying about. I don't dress any certain way, openly law abiding, educated, clean cut, couldn't last 2 mins in the 'hood on my best acting day and I'm black.

~sigh~