Donny Boy

Could Mazda give us a mazdaSpeed Protoge with a 6 speed manual?? Why the antiquated 5 speed? Whaddayathink?

This ad is not displayed to registered and logged-in members. Register your free account today and become a member on RX8Club.com!

Sputnik

Because if you don't need all six speeds to keep the engine in the power band, then it's just more weight, more complexity, and more shifting that you have to do.

In the Miata, the 6 speed doesn't have any higher final ratio or anything, just more gears in between. Those who aren't all caught up in "more is better" actually prefer the 5 speed.

---jps

Rich

Agreed, 5-speeds is plenty for most cars. When I was looking for my most recent vehicle purchase I drove about 4 6-speeds and about a dozen or so 5-speeds, and preferred the 5 for everything except off the line acceleration.

Donny Boy

But isn't off the line acceleration sufficient, in and off itself, to warrant 6 speeds? Not to mention the better highway mileage with a lower final drive.

As to Sputnick's response, shifting is a pleasure, not a chore, at least for me. But correct, the ratios should offer better acceleration in the rated powerband as well as lower cruising revs at highway speeds. I'm not suggesting 6 speeds just for the sake of having 6 instead of 5 speeds. I want 6 speeds with all the benefits that supposed to accompany having an extra gear.

Besides, if it were such a negative as suggested, why would every serious automaker offer it on their upmarket cars, BMW M3, 350Z, Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches. . . need I continue? Even lesser cars with sporting pretensions offer 6 speeds, Maxima for instance.

All I'm suggesting is that Mazda offer what is necessary to keep up with the ZOOM ZOOM image.

spud

I have a 2000 protege and I have to say it would be nice to have another gear. At 70 miles per hour the car is turning 3,500 r.p.m.
In my opinion that is a little to high because it affects the gas mileage by quite a bit. It gets on average at 50-55 m.p.h 33 to 35 miles per gallon. At 70 it only gets about 31 m.p.g., and if u go faster it gets worse and worse.

later james

Sputnik

*Sigh*, it's not a matter of eliminating the "chore" of shifting. It's a matter of eliminating the time an extra shift takes out of acceleration numbers. It's a matter of not having to upset the car's stability when shifting in a corner. It's a matter of having a gearbox that is matched to the engine's and car's characteristics, which is another small detail that makes up the "feel" of a well-designed car.

Quote:

...Besides, if it were such a negative as suggested, why would every serious automaker offer it on their upmarket cars, BMW M3, 350Z, Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches. . . need I continue?

You didn't ask about those cars, or about 6 speeds in general. You asked about the Protege'. If you have a 6 speed setup that offers a higher gear for mileage considerations, then great. But just because you have a 6 speed doesn't mean that you have a higher final gear.

And the fact that spud's 2k Protege turns 3500 rpm at 70 doesn't actually hurt mileage. In alot of DOHC engines, cruising the engine at 3500 is actually more efficient than running it at say 2500, where domestic OHV engines are more efficient.

---jps

Hercules

How about considering the 3 series which only has 5 speeds

The M3 has 333 horses to contend with, the 350Z 285, Ferraris and the rest.. I don't need to mention

The Protege isn't near that high.

fuz

I think the reason for offering 6-speeds today has a lot to do with marketing and less to do with actually needing it. You only want the last gear tall enough so that you have the capability to slowly increase speed on a slight positive grade without having to downshift. Then you divide the ratios down. Now, usually you want only one shift, 1-2 to make it to 60mph for launch times (marketing reasons once again) so then all you really have left is to divide the rest of speed range for the gears up beyond that. It's just not necessary to split that section up with four gears. If the car isn't powerful enough, you have to change gears constantly to stay in the powerband. It's like driving an old 14 gear bus; is that fun?

Is a BMW 330 with only 225hp and a 5 speed slow? Hardly. So why does an M3 use 6? The obvious answer is to make it faster, but the car is powerful enough that even when in one of the higher gears, it's not as necessary to downshift since there is enough power and RPM range to pull away in almost any gear. Having an extra gear in that car is almost inconsequential, so why not. It doesn’t affect driving on real roads much.

spud

Trust me when I say that the mileage is affected by turning that high of r.p.m's. If I only would have had the car for a couple of months I wouldnt have said that, but ive had the car for 2 years. It gets almost as good of gas mileage in the city as it does on the highway! Im not saying that the car neccisarily needs another gear, but it needs to have a little taller final drive. A 4.11 gear is just a little to low.

later james

Rich

spud, you're ignoring a host of other factors, most noticeably the higher aerodynamic drag at higher speeds. Sputnik is right that many of today's cars are more efficient at 3500 prm than 2500. The fact that the mileage decreases as you go faster has little to do with the engine efficiency and more to do with the increased drag. A 6-speed wouldn't solve your problem. Correlation is not causation.

Donny, I enjoy shifting as well. However the added complexity, weight, cost, and size are factors to consider. The Miata 6-speed doesn't feel close to as good as the 5-speed. It may give a tiny bit more jump off the line, but is that enough to offset the disadvantage of worse shifter feel?

I'm not saying all 6-speeds are bad, just that they have to be well matched to the car. They're primarily a marketing thing, because most people think more is better. It's not. Somewhere around the 5/6 speed range you reach a point where more gears don't help anything, and they hurt for the already mentioned reasons. In some cars the peak is closer to 5 speeds, and in some the peak is closer to 6.

Rexman

I too prefer the 6 speed. Besides more ratios to play with, the marketing thing also plays a part. I agree that 6 speeds may be a marketing ploy, though I doubt it, nontheless, I still like the IDEA of a 6 speed manual.

Grimace

Cars on which a 6-speed makes sense: S2000, RX-8, etc.

Cars on which it is a marketing gimic: A4 3.0, Maxima...

There is a fine line between realized acceleration improvement/fuel savings and extra weight from the 6-speed. There have been a number of papers written about it that you can peruse through on SAE's website.

Bottom line: for most cars, a well-ratioed 5-speed is best.

Re: increased fuel economy on the highway with a 6-speed and lower RPM's: Not usually! At elevated speeds, dropping the engine out of the power band in a tall 6th gear actually increases fuel consumption as the engine struggles against the wind.