NEGATIVE: Bad Mazda Dealerships
05-07-2004, 06:22 PM
#26
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Mazda of Lakewood, Colorado: Negative. Fed me a line of BS that "Mazda corporate won't pay for TSB work that people find on the internet." They've been good up until now, but this, coupled with the long drive to them, was the last straw. I'm going elsewhere.
05-10-2004, 02:46 PM
#27
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Ocean Mazda, Miami FL: NEGATIVE.
Took my car in for 15,000 service, and to have the leading coil packs on both rotors replaced as they had burned out. FIrst they gave me a runaround about how my car had already received it's 15,000 service and they would do the 20,000 one, essentially trying to screw me out of 1 scheduled service. Next I showed the service guy the blown coil packs, but when I picked the car up they told me there was no CEL and that it was fine. Had to make a bet with the mechanic who serviced the car to get them to put a timing light on the coil pack and verify that indeed, both where gone. Mechanic claimed he test drove the car and it was fine, and that was a lie too since the mileage when I dropped the car off and picked it up was .3 different. They do not know what they are doing and will treat you like a fool if you try to show them something. Very very Negative feeling here.
Edit:
To add on, last night I discovered they scratched my trunk lid by SLIDING my XM antenna all over the place, as well as not rotating my tires (and saying they did).
Took my car in for 15,000 service, and to have the leading coil packs on both rotors replaced as they had burned out. FIrst they gave me a runaround about how my car had already received it's 15,000 service and they would do the 20,000 one, essentially trying to screw me out of 1 scheduled service. Next I showed the service guy the blown coil packs, but when I picked the car up they told me there was no CEL and that it was fine. Had to make a bet with the mechanic who serviced the car to get them to put a timing light on the coil pack and verify that indeed, both where gone. Mechanic claimed he test drove the car and it was fine, and that was a lie too since the mileage when I dropped the car off and picked it up was .3 different. They do not know what they are doing and will treat you like a fool if you try to show them something. Very very Negative feeling here.
Edit:
To add on, last night I discovered they scratched my trunk lid by SLIDING my XM antenna all over the place, as well as not rotating my tires (and saying they did).
Last edited by Genom; 05-12-2004 at 11:13 AM.
05-11-2004, 07:42 AM
#28
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Jay AutoMall, GA: Positive/Negative: The sale rep there was trying to sell me a car in the lot and was igonering the color and package I was looking at buying. No problems with the test drive. As of right now, I plan to take my car there for service since it is only a 10 min ride. If things don't go well there, I will go to Auburn Mazda, which is 45 min away.
05-12-2004, 10:30 AM
#29
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Brown's Mazda of Alexandria, Virginia
NEGATIVE
Service Department: Major Problems. Over 2 months were spent figuring out my RX-8 had a damaged Catalytic Converter!! And yes, the CEL codes were not lying. :-(
Sales Department: Unsatisfactorily meet my expectations for communication and helpfulness. :-(
NEGATIVE
Service Department: Major Problems. Over 2 months were spent figuring out my RX-8 had a damaged Catalytic Converter!! And yes, the CEL codes were not lying. :-(
Sales Department: Unsatisfactorily meet my expectations for communication and helpfulness. :-(
Last edited by Turk; 05-12-2004 at 10:33 AM.
05-12-2004, 10:30 AM
#30
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Brown's Mazda of Alexandria, Virginia
NEGATIVE
Service Department: Major Problems. Over 2 months were spent figuring out my RX-8 had a damaged Catalytic Converter!! And yes, the CEL codes were not lying. :-(
Sales Department: Unsatisfactorily meet my expectations for communication and helpfulness. :-(
NEGATIVE
Service Department: Major Problems. Over 2 months were spent figuring out my RX-8 had a damaged Catalytic Converter!! And yes, the CEL codes were not lying. :-(
Sales Department: Unsatisfactorily meet my expectations for communication and helpfulness. :-(
Last edited by Turk; 05-12-2004 at 10:33 AM.
05-12-2004, 11:33 AM
#31
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NEGATIVE- Martin Mazda Newark DE
NEGATIVE- Martin Mazda Newark DE
I have had my car in the body shop associated with this dealer since Apr4. The body shop has repeatedly lied, or shaded the truth with me. Last week all the parts were in, and they "were going into paint tomorrow" - exact quote off my voice mail. Today an entire week later he says "they may get into paint by the end of the week - Monday the latest"
I was promised my car today - "with a little luck a little earlier, or maybe just a little later". Now it's mid to late next week - I would call another 7 to 10 days A LOT MORE THAN "A LITTLE LATER".
The management at the dealership seems to have no interest in the problems I am having - even though this body shop is an onsite subcontractor. I would say that 6 weeks to repair $2200 worth of damage is INSANE.
I have had my car in the body shop associated with this dealer since Apr4. The body shop has repeatedly lied, or shaded the truth with me. Last week all the parts were in, and they "were going into paint tomorrow" - exact quote off my voice mail. Today an entire week later he says "they may get into paint by the end of the week - Monday the latest"
I was promised my car today - "with a little luck a little earlier, or maybe just a little later". Now it's mid to late next week - I would call another 7 to 10 days A LOT MORE THAN "A LITTLE LATER".
The management at the dealership seems to have no interest in the problems I am having - even though this body shop is an onsite subcontractor. I would say that 6 weeks to repair $2200 worth of damage is INSANE.
05-13-2004, 01:34 PM
#32
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Negative: Stone Mt Mazda on Hwy 78 in Georgia
glad you had good luck -- I DID BUY mine from them. Called to make an appt. for the M-flash about a month ago...the service advisor even has an Rx-8 himself, which I thought would help. He asked me "how do you know about the M-flash", etc. and told me they wouldn't do it unless I had flooded it. I carried it in anyway and told them it was idling rough (which it still is) and finally got him to agree to "let the tech look at it and see if he thinks it needs a flash"....
anyway - they did do it but it hasnt helped any of my problems. Plus the service advisor was very rude to me too -- asked if they could do an oil change while it was in -- I replied NO, I do those myself. Then he said, "so you want us to work on your car FREE but not let us do anything to get any money for" -- that really upset me.
I will give them one more try but that's it.
glad you had good luck -- I DID BUY mine from them. Called to make an appt. for the M-flash about a month ago...the service advisor even has an Rx-8 himself, which I thought would help. He asked me "how do you know about the M-flash", etc. and told me they wouldn't do it unless I had flooded it. I carried it in anyway and told them it was idling rough (which it still is) and finally got him to agree to "let the tech look at it and see if he thinks it needs a flash"....
anyway - they did do it but it hasnt helped any of my problems. Plus the service advisor was very rude to me too -- asked if they could do an oil change while it was in -- I replied NO, I do those myself. Then he said, "so you want us to work on your car FREE but not let us do anything to get any money for" -- that really upset me.
I will give them one more try but that's it.
Last edited by Omicron; 05-13-2004 at 01:46 PM.
05-13-2004, 03:55 PM
#33
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Holiday Ford/Mazda, Blacksburg, VA: POSITIVE for SERVICE, NEGATIVE for SALES.
I didn't buy my car there, because they never followed up to my initial contact via Mazda's pre-order website; I bought from Berglund Mazda in Salem, VA (experience = NEUTRAL).
But I've had good experiences with Holiday's service department; they're efficient, competent, and professional. My only complaint is my car is never parked in the numbered space they tell me when I go to pick it up; I always have to wander the lot to find it!
I didn't buy my car there, because they never followed up to my initial contact via Mazda's pre-order website; I bought from Berglund Mazda in Salem, VA (experience = NEUTRAL).
But I've had good experiences with Holiday's service department; they're efficient, competent, and professional. My only complaint is my car is never parked in the numbered space they tell me when I go to pick it up; I always have to wander the lot to find it!
05-15-2004, 08:23 PM
#34
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Santa Monica Mazda SUCKS!!!
They have the worst service manager. He's more worried about scoring with the ladies who work at the dealership than helping customers.
They have the worst service manager. He's more worried about scoring with the ladies who work at the dealership than helping customers.
05-24-2004, 09:22 AM
#35
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Galpin Mazda - Santa Clartia NEGATIVE
Took car in for air amplifier, 15k service, seat creak.
I said they could have the car for a few days since I was going out of town.
I got a call a few hours later saying it was ready. I went to pick it up and I got the following BS
1. air is within spec - I asked about the SB and he said that there was no SB about the air. I opened the glove box and showed him the print out. No response from him.
2. 15k - "oh. you wanted that done too?"
3. seat creak - we could not duplicate the problem. I sat down and made it creak for him. no response from him.
Took car in for air amplifier, 15k service, seat creak.
I said they could have the car for a few days since I was going out of town.
I got a call a few hours later saying it was ready. I went to pick it up and I got the following BS
1. air is within spec - I asked about the SB and he said that there was no SB about the air. I opened the glove box and showed him the print out. No response from him.
2. 15k - "oh. you wanted that done too?"
3. seat creak - we could not duplicate the problem. I sat down and made it creak for him. no response from him.
05-24-2004, 08:17 PM
#36
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NEGATIVE: Mack Massey Mazda-Bmw
When I purchased my 8, I was actually pleased with the vehicle knowledge that the salesman had (this was about a week after Mazda came out with the fact that the RX8 didnt actually have 250 hp), and the buying experiance was actually pleasing, I was very excited to drive my 8 off the lott.
However, the real problem with this joint actually happened when I had to bring my 8 in for services. The right rear strut had assed out on me and it was clearly under warranty, so I brough it in to get fixed.
They were nice enough to give me a loaner car... a wonderful 2001 puke green Protege, that was covered with dirt, and had the fantastic scent of wet dog inside. So I drove off to work in my 80 hp loaner car. About 2 hours later, I recieve a call from the dealership... the serviceman I was talking to said, and I quote, "Were not fixing this thing, you wrecked it", I was astonished at what I had heard. He told me that there was no way they were going to touch anything because I had clearly wrecked my car and then brought it in for them to fix.
Needless to say, I bolt in to the dealership to see what this tool was talking about. As I arrived, I was led back into the bay area... I just so happened to be walking past a BMW Z3 that was there for services... the driver side window was broken, totally spiderwebbed and the obvious owner was screaming her lungs out, asking what happened to her car. I would never had believed it if I hadnt heard it for myself, the serviceman looked at her and said, "It was like that when you brought it in". She went crazy, screaming at the top of her lungs... 2 minutes later, another service guy walked up and said "Im sorry, I hit it with my tool case"
I couldnt believe the spectacle that I just observed. I finally arrived at my car, that was up on the lift at the time. The serviceman showed me two scrapes on the undercarriage that clearly matched up to the ramp that led to the car lift. I thought I was taking crazy pills! I calmly pointed out how well the ramp matched up perfectly to the under carriage damage... it was obvious that they did it! This clown then tried to turn it around, like he was gonna do me a big favor and fix my car anyway.
Long story short, I will be taking my RX8 out to Las Cruces for services.
However, the real problem with this joint actually happened when I had to bring my 8 in for services. The right rear strut had assed out on me and it was clearly under warranty, so I brough it in to get fixed.
They were nice enough to give me a loaner car... a wonderful 2001 puke green Protege, that was covered with dirt, and had the fantastic scent of wet dog inside. So I drove off to work in my 80 hp loaner car. About 2 hours later, I recieve a call from the dealership... the serviceman I was talking to said, and I quote, "Were not fixing this thing, you wrecked it", I was astonished at what I had heard. He told me that there was no way they were going to touch anything because I had clearly wrecked my car and then brought it in for them to fix.
Needless to say, I bolt in to the dealership to see what this tool was talking about. As I arrived, I was led back into the bay area... I just so happened to be walking past a BMW Z3 that was there for services... the driver side window was broken, totally spiderwebbed and the obvious owner was screaming her lungs out, asking what happened to her car. I would never had believed it if I hadnt heard it for myself, the serviceman looked at her and said, "It was like that when you brought it in". She went crazy, screaming at the top of her lungs... 2 minutes later, another service guy walked up and said "Im sorry, I hit it with my tool case"
I couldnt believe the spectacle that I just observed. I finally arrived at my car, that was up on the lift at the time. The serviceman showed me two scrapes on the undercarriage that clearly matched up to the ramp that led to the car lift. I thought I was taking crazy pills! I calmly pointed out how well the ramp matched up perfectly to the under carriage damage... it was obvious that they did it! This clown then tried to turn it around, like he was gonna do me a big favor and fix my car anyway.
Long story short, I will be taking my RX8 out to Las Cruces for services.
06-15-2004, 09:19 AM
#38
if your not 1st your last
maxon mazda in union n.j is garbage
worst finance manager's,service dept is crap.overall
horrible dealer stay far far away.
wayne mazda is my favorite even if i didnt buy my car from there
wish i did.
worst finance manager's,service dept is crap.overall
horrible dealer stay far far away.
wayne mazda is my favorite even if i didnt buy my car from there
wish i did.
06-28-2004, 10:19 AM
#39
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I haven't dealt with the service deptartments yet, but...
Sandy Sansing Mazda, Pensacola Fl. I had a great experience with both of the internet sales guys. That said, the first person I talked too was a slimy %&*, tried to rip us off. He was surprised (and pissed) when I was back in the dealership with another sales rep. Also, they attempted to hide scratches on my car with shoepolish. I didn't notice until afterwards, but the dealer claimed that they could have been done after I bought it. Overall experience: BAD
Sandy Sansing Mazda, Pensacola Fl. I had a great experience with both of the internet sales guys. That said, the first person I talked too was a slimy %&*, tried to rip us off. He was surprised (and pissed) when I was back in the dealership with another sales rep. Also, they attempted to hide scratches on my car with shoepolish. I didn't notice until afterwards, but the dealer claimed that they could have been done after I bought it. Overall experience: BAD
07-04-2004, 02:22 PM
#40
"...I'm a Dapper Dan man"
Casey Imports, Newport News, VA.
Casey Imports..... Mazda, Jeep, VW, Audi and Subaru
Newport News, Virginia
These guys are a bunch of circus clowns dressed up in uniforms acting like they know what they are doing. Every time i take my car in for repairs (Pre RX-8) it would take them at least 5-7 trips to get it fixed.
My last car, a '02 VW Passat W8 was lemonlawed due to the inept sevice there. 14 times in the shop, 32 job orders and 60 days out of service in 12 months of frustrating ownership!
I bought my RX-8 at Hampton Chevy-Mazda but really have not had the chance to gauge their service as I have not had any major issues to speak of. The only real work thay have done was the airbag recall so I will see.
Newport News, Virginia
These guys are a bunch of circus clowns dressed up in uniforms acting like they know what they are doing. Every time i take my car in for repairs (Pre RX-8) it would take them at least 5-7 trips to get it fixed.
My last car, a '02 VW Passat W8 was lemonlawed due to the inept sevice there. 14 times in the shop, 32 job orders and 60 days out of service in 12 months of frustrating ownership!
I bought my RX-8 at Hampton Chevy-Mazda but really have not had the chance to gauge their service as I have not had any major issues to speak of. The only real work thay have done was the airbag recall so I will see.
07-04-2004, 02:39 PM
#41
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Originally posted by BARK
Dave Wood Mazda, Newmarket, Ontario - INCOMPETENT.
Service tech used 5 litres (>5 qts) for a routine oil change.
Cheers
Dave Wood Mazda, Newmarket, Ontario - INCOMPETENT.
Service tech used 5 litres (>5 qts) for a routine oil change.
Cheers
Weird
Dave Wood Mazda, Santa Rosa - COMPETENT. The service guys who actually do the labor -INCOMPETENT
07-13-2004, 06:58 PM
#42
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Darcars Mazda - Silver Spring
Buying Experience: Neutral/Positive. They didn't jerk me around on the trade in value of my car and with very little pushing on my side, they gave me a fair price on the car.
Initial Service Experience: HORRIBLE. 12.2 miles extra on the car after going in for just an oil change. F***ing astards were joy-riding in my new 8.
Nice.
Initial Service Experience: HORRIBLE. 12.2 miles extra on the car after going in for just an oil change. F***ing astards were joy-riding in my new 8.
Nice.
07-27-2004, 01:51 PM
#43
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Major NEGATIVE Wantagh Mazda of Long Island New York. Very quick to be kind and sell the car, then after they want nothing to do with you but to blow you off!
Had to have "Tina" a rep from the corporate office come down and look into the emulsifying oil on the dipstick. (Before I knew anything about rotary) There was a mechanic there who said he was part of Mazda for 30 years and never had he seen anything like the coffee colored oil on the dipstick! Well, since no one there could tell me what it was (because of their iggnorance to the rotary engine, and mine., I was blown off.
Major POSITIVE Great Neck Mazda of Long Island New York. Very quick to give me discounts on parts and even put me in the system for free oil changes, although I didn't even purchase the car from them! Great bunch of guys and I highly recomeend them.
Had to have "Tina" a rep from the corporate office come down and look into the emulsifying oil on the dipstick. (Before I knew anything about rotary) There was a mechanic there who said he was part of Mazda for 30 years and never had he seen anything like the coffee colored oil on the dipstick! Well, since no one there could tell me what it was (because of their iggnorance to the rotary engine, and mine., I was blown off.
Major POSITIVE Great Neck Mazda of Long Island New York. Very quick to give me discounts on parts and even put me in the system for free oil changes, although I didn't even purchase the car from them! Great bunch of guys and I highly recomeend them.
08-02-2004, 09:01 PM
#44
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Mazda of Knoxville.NEGATIVE Negotiated a price including shipping fee. Salesmen called back and upped the shipping fee. Took my credit card number as "just a formality" but ran it anyway. Never mentioned "non-refundable deposit" until it was too late. Told them I wanted the car M flashed and they had to verify it to me in person. Travelled 150 miles to buy the car, no evidence of M flash and would not verify it to me. Dealership owner, told me to "get on down the road". Would not even call me a taxi and when I asked to use the Yellow pages, a salesmen grabbed the book from me and said, "get outta my office". WOW!!
08-04-2004, 10:23 AM
#45
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TOM BUSH MAZDA IN JACKSONVILLE FLORIDA
Worst service I have ever had as they made me feel like I owed them for them so generously fixing my RX-8 (hydrolocked, engine replaced). At one point my service advisor Corky Scarsborogh (cocky bastage that poobably was working on getting his GED) addressed me as "Hey Boy" in a redneck accent because I didn't have the loaner car back at the time he told me to. PLus they tried to rip my insurance company off saying that they were going to send the old engine that my insurance company (and me) paid for back to Mazda. pfft, yeah right. Corky had dollar signs in his eyes until I called him out. Needless to say he really doesen't like me now...grrrr
Worst service I have ever had as they made me feel like I owed them for them so generously fixing my RX-8 (hydrolocked, engine replaced). At one point my service advisor Corky Scarsborogh (cocky bastage that poobably was working on getting his GED) addressed me as "Hey Boy" in a redneck accent because I didn't have the loaner car back at the time he told me to. PLus they tried to rip my insurance company off saying that they were going to send the old engine that my insurance company (and me) paid for back to Mazda. pfft, yeah right. Corky had dollar signs in his eyes until I called him out. Needless to say he really doesen't like me now...grrrr
08-04-2004, 10:47 PM
#46
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Crystal Mazda, Greenbrook NJ: Sales: Positive: Got a no haggle online quote for exact car with options I chose online. Drove down, very friendly staff, accomodating to my every need. Truly a dealership that takes great pride in satisfying customer. However, it's pure fake, trained BS kind, not real life kind/caring people. After sale they insisted 100 times that I should give them all tens on survey. 
Service: Negative. Dropped car off for airbag and tranny insulator recall. They put some minor scratches on my car but claimed they were there (no way, I went over every detail of that car before handing it to them). I let it go because they can be buffed out. Next day I noticed that they broke my stay damper on glove box, and never told me. I called them, and they ordered part, but claimed they didn't know they had broken it (BS). They did fix it right away when it came in with no appointment though.
Service: Negative. Dropped car off for airbag and tranny insulator recall. They put some minor scratches on my car but claimed they were there (no way, I went over every detail of that car before handing it to them). I let it go because they can be buffed out. Next day I noticed that they broke my stay damper on glove box, and never told me. I called them, and they ordered part, but claimed they didn't know they had broken it (BS). They did fix it right away when it came in with no appointment though.
08-06-2004, 06:05 PM
#47
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same here got my blue 8 @ Crystal auto mall there are so nice and friendly like people u know, but after ive had my 8 for 2 months or so i call them about a service , 'sorry no available till next month', next month!?!! rotary engine hello!!!! need oil need oilllllllllll,
lets just say they are a$$H@[[ down there, if anyone wants to buy their 8 there, give to 'em , ITs YOUR WAY OR NO WAY, and dont be nice to em, their the ones who wants your money you know, let em know that their not the only car dealership that sells your kind of car, there's FLEMINGTON MAZDA "great service by the way "thanx jack! theres route 1 mazda. (((((CRYSTALL AUTO MALL SUCK BIG B@#%$)))))Back stabbing a$$}{@[[S
"oh by the way I love my Mazda RX8 "
lets just say they are a$$H@[[ down there, if anyone wants to buy their 8 there, give to 'em , ITs YOUR WAY OR NO WAY, and dont be nice to em, their the ones who wants your money you know, let em know that their not the only car dealership that sells your kind of car, there's FLEMINGTON MAZDA "great service by the way "thanx jack! theres route 1 mazda. (((((CRYSTALL AUTO MALL SUCK BIG B@#%$)))))Back stabbing a$$}{@[[S
"oh by the way I love my Mazda RX8 "
08-15-2004, 10:42 AM
#48
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Whitby Mazda (Terrible service)
I used to drive a GM car. GM didn't have the best service, but when comparing Ontario Motor Sales service dept. Vs. Whitby Mazda, and I think OMS would win TKO. Whitby Mazda is absolutley terrible. If I couldn't take my car to another dealer for service, I would contimplate paying for my service at an independant shop.
I used to drive a GM car. GM didn't have the best service, but when comparing Ontario Motor Sales service dept. Vs. Whitby Mazda, and I think OMS would win TKO. Whitby Mazda is absolutley terrible. If I couldn't take my car to another dealer for service, I would contimplate paying for my service at an independant shop.
Last edited by miguel; 09-02-2004 at 08:11 AM.
08-15-2004, 09:38 PM
#49
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NEGATIVE for SALES
Sansone Mazda on Rt.1 Did not even want to look over other dealers offer to at least match. They dismissed those as "fake."
MAXON MAZDA
Cheap prices but bait-and-switch. Rude sale manager. Good only for a quotation to take to a real dealer - not Sansone Mazda though. Wayne Mazda was the winner here.
Sansone Mazda on Rt.1 Did not even want to look over other dealers offer to at least match. They dismissed those as "fake."
MAXON MAZDA
Cheap prices but bait-and-switch. Rude sale manager. Good only for a quotation to take to a real dealer - not Sansone Mazda though. Wayne Mazda was the winner here.
08-17-2004, 03:16 AM
#50
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Bad Place
MADZA LINC MERC- NEGATIVE
Located in the Olympia Capital Auto Mall
My <A TITLE="Click for more information about car" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||cars|AA1VDw">car</A>s been in the shop for over 3 weeks now for 6th gear going out.
they got the transmission for it, and told me it would be done the following day, as i told them i needed it then, they called me up and told me "well i dont think we will be able to get to it today" i still told them i need it for the weekend, they refused to work on it the next day "sat" or sun, but assured me it would be out the door monday.
i got a phone call monday with them telling me they again would not be able to get to it, i asked how long it would take to put the transmission in, they told me 4 hours...so ive been without a car for over 3 weeks now, they told me they didnt even have a rental they could lend me, but they could get me "a good deal" on one...
the worst part about this whole ordeal is they said it wasnt warrentied, and id have to pay for the new transmission ($2600 +$1300 for labor and tax. today was the last straw, i will not pick my car up tomarrow, and I intend to do something about this bad expirience.
Located in the Olympia Capital Auto Mall
My <A TITLE="Click for more information about car" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||cars|AA1VDw">car</A>s been in the shop for over 3 weeks now for 6th gear going out.
they got the transmission for it, and told me it would be done the following day, as i told them i needed it then, they called me up and told me "well i dont think we will be able to get to it today" i still told them i need it for the weekend, they refused to work on it the next day "sat" or sun, but assured me it would be out the door monday.
i got a phone call monday with them telling me they again would not be able to get to it, i asked how long it would take to put the transmission in, they told me 4 hours...so ive been without a car for over 3 weeks now, they told me they didnt even have a rental they could lend me, but they could get me "a good deal" on one...
the worst part about this whole ordeal is they said it wasnt warrentied, and id have to pay for the new transmission ($2600 +$1300 for labor and tax. today was the last straw, i will not pick my car up tomarrow, and I intend to do something about this bad expirience.
Last edited by Krayzie8; 08-17-2004 at 03:20 AM.
