aruffell

Hello All,

I am originally from Italy where 99.999% of the cars are standard. Automatics are not popular because they cost more and do not offer the same "sprint" that is possible when you know how to drive a stick well.

I have been driving sticks for over 13 years and have always used a combination of downshifting and braking to decelerate my car. Depending on the speed I am at and what speed I want to slow down to, the shifting Vs braking ratios will vary. Even when a downshift will get you to the desired speed, you still want to touch on the brake so the brake lights will go on and the people behind you have a clear indication you are slowing down.

When downshifting you usually go from 5 to 4, 4 to 3, and so on but in some cases (ex.: going slow enough) you can skip one step/gear (ex.: 5 to 3) as long as you do not redline your car (possibly doing real bad damage to your car).

Since I moved to the US, I am often told that I "do not know how to drive because I downshift to slow down". I have also been told "I prefer to wear out my brakes instead of my tranny, so I brake and do not downshift to slow down".

I strongly oppose both statements and want your opinion. Using only your brakes will reduce the traction and stability you have especially in poor weather conditions. When brakes heat up they are less efficient so your braking will be longer and and less effective.

Have things changed in the past 13 years? Am I totally wrong? Have I gone nuts? I think that most people in the US have only driven Automatics and on most of them, all you can do is brake... so I do not take their comments seriously, but would like to hear your side of things.

thanks,
Alex

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Clutches are expensive, brakes are cheap.

Simple as that.

There is no "wrong" way to apply a negative vector. You decide which has a betterprice/ performance value.

aggietiff28

12 years of standard driving...First car had over 400k on it, second 150k, third 74k. Prefer to use the combo method, unless having to stop quickly then use brakes. Never had to replace a tranny, and only replaced brakes on second car (150K) twice, and third vehicle (74K) once. Hope that helps.

dmp

Gears are for GO. Brakes are for WHOA.

Easy.

gansan

Brakes generally work on all four wheels in a balanced way, and downshifting only slows down your drive wheels. Downshifting to slow down is much more unstable than braking. That's why "heel and toe" downshifting exists, to minimize that instability.

I agree with the others. Brake pads are cheap and can be replaced in 20 minutes. A clutch cannot. An engine's wear is better served accelerating, not decelerating.

Having said that, I admit I downshift to slow down all the time, but I do it to practice my heel-toe, not because I an depending on the engine to slow me down.

Gomez

I use brakes as a last resort to slow down. I spend 90% of my time in the city, and I brake gently for maybe the last 10-20 feet before a stop. Often I stop with no brakes at all. Makes for a more challenging drive......

Don't get me wrong, I use brakes hard when I need to, obviously. It's just I enjoy reading the traffic to avoid using them. The RX-8 has a pretty slick box....I make the most of it.

Gomez.

Feras

iTrader: (1)

awesome i do this too, you should see how close some of these idiots get to me not realizing im slowing down (brake lights not lighting coz im not using brakes) in the US this idea of engine braking is a foreign concept to most. I remember one time somebody came alongside and warned me that my brake lights werent turning on...i didnt even use my brakes! lol

Labop

I use a combo, but I'm wary of other drivers. If there's no one behind me, or they're pretty far back, I won't touch the brakes till the last bit or if have to make a suddeen stop. Other times I coast to the intersection then apply brakes (we have some long red light here). It just all depends. We have mostly flat roads out here, so in traffic I hardly use the brakes.

It just all depends on the situation you're in. Also, most people out here aren't as familiar with manuals as they are in Europe. My wife (british) didn't beleive me that most cars are A/T out here. She also didn't beleive how easy-n-cheap it is to get a license.

draco067

Heh heh heh :D :p

canaryrx8

iTrader: (3)

Best way to slow down? I use brakes of course! cars too big for the Flintstone method :D

Shamblerock

Alex, the way you described how you drive the car is nothing short of perfect in my books. In my opinion, that is exactly how the car is supposed to drive. Use the cars components all together. A bit of both is the right way. If a clutch wears prematurely, you either ride it all too often or have a cheap clutch or a cheap car. Clutch should last you well over 120,000 miles. So what if you change your clutch once every 7-8 years. Not bad if you have the car for 10-15 years and only had one clutch change in exchange for mounds more fun and control over those 10-15 years.

BlacknightX

If you double clutch, that shouldn't really put any undue wear on the clutch, right? What about the transmission? If you double clutch and let your transmission do all the work, does it wear out that much faster?

army_rx8

in my 7 years of driving i've never used brackes or my transmision to stop the car......i deploy a parachute...works great...but it does **** off people behind you :p LOL


P.S. i have seen some people use retro rockets...but i couldn't justify the added weight and cost of all that extra fuel

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Every time you use the clutch pedal, you are using up the clutch.

Double-clutching is just for synchronization. It does nothing for the clutch if not wear it faster since it is engaged twice for each shift instead of just once.

aruffell

The two "trannys of thought" (get my pun?) are very clear on this thread. Some think it is more stable to downshift AND brake to slow down a vehicle in the most controlled way, some other think that only brakes is the way to go. Which-ever way is actually the best I think one should decide how to slow down based on what is the safest and not what is cheaper... your safety is far worth more than a clutch or brake pads or even the entire car. In 13yrs of driving a stick I never had to replace my clutch.

Many of you that say only brakes may in reality actually use both without even realizing... think of this situation - you are driving down a street at 70 in 5th gear and about 300m (is this 900ft?) you have a sharp turn that will require you to nearly stop... how do you handle this situation? I start downshifting from 5 to 4 to 3 causing the revs to go up (way below redline) by using the motor's braking action - while doing this I start braking progressively harder as I get closer to the sharp turn, once I am at the turn I have already downshifted to 2nd gear which is appropriate for the turn, and so I can accelerate coming in and out of the curve. If I had only braked, then I would be at the right speed for the turn but in 5th gear or maybe 4th... the turn requires 2nd, also because it is best to accelerate when mid to end of the curve for best traction and control of the car - never brake in a curve because braking (if to hard and slick road) will cause your car to lose traction. I am obviously not talking about Granny driving... if you drive at 35mph then brakes are all you need and with the RX8 you are most likely still in 1st gear :D anyway.

I am glad this thread is constructive, and everyone is providing their thoughts... I was afraid flaming would start. What I am hoping for is some professional driver/racer to give his/her experienced insight backed by serious training. We all strongly believe in our methods because they have always served us well, but I have a genuine interest in knowing what is best for my own safety.

thanks for the participation!

aruffell

My understanding of Double Clutch is that it was required in older cars that lacked or had inefficient synchronization, therefore it was the best way to reduce the destructive impact on the gears themselves (not on the clutch) by bringing them to the right speed before two gears were engaged. I was once trained to drive on a supermodified tiny little car that required double clutching - it was fun but I am glad we no longer need to do it.

Gomez

If safety is the only criteria you are seeking info about, then leave plenty of space, brake early, and have a gear selected that will allow you to manoeuvre out of any dangerous situation that may arise.

aruffell

I believe the braking action on the four wheels is not the same, thus not balanced. Many cars have disc brakes on the front and drum brakes on the back because less braking power is required there... unless you are racing the car in rear gear:D . Most good cars now have disk brakes front and back, but the only ventilated ones are in the front - once again pointing out they are subjected to much more use. Last but not least, pads in the front are changed twice as often as the back brake pads - the old rule of thumb was - every two front pad changes, change the back.

The only unstable moment of downshifting is when you disengage the gear... but if done properly it is for a fraction of a second. Some people press the clutch (putting car effectively in Neutral) and brake thus making things far worse by extending braking time and risking the loss of control.

aruffell

100% IN AGREEMENT

... but :D what about the thrill of fast driving? A few years ago, in Italy, I used to drive 180km/h (115mph) on a daily basis, and sometimes up to 200km/h (125mph) and over, whithout ever being stopped since 50% of the people on highways would do so. I always followed your rules because they are crucial to stop safely.

BlacknightX

True, but when you synchronize the gears you GREATLY reduce the wear on the clutch vs. downshifting when the gears are completely out of sync. By doing a good job of synchronizing the gears as I downshift, I save wear and tear on both the brakes AND the clutch.

I'm not arguing brakes vs downshifting, but having driven a truck for many years I know you can go through a lot of brake pads and discs and double clutching was a way to save both clutch and brakes.

aruffell

I had never thought of this... good to learn something new! Thanks!

rx-cars_rock

I brake and heel/toe shift almost every turn. If the turn does not require the use of brakes, I downshift(and rev match) for the turn and go through it.

Labop

Wish I could drive my 8 like that. Most of my driving is in a straight line with lots of heavy traffic. I can't wait to get back to the twists, hilly roads of NW Washington state...

gansan

What I said balanced, I meant correctly biased front to rear for the weight balance of the car as well as the weight transfer that comes from the deceleration itself. Of course, the required braking power is different in the front compared to the rear, so the brakes can be different types, and as long as your proportioning valve is correct, it is balanced.

Having the clutch in while braking absolutely does NOT extend your braking time and make you lose control. If you are braking hard and you find engine braking is helping you slow down even harder, you are not pressing the brakes hard enough. At the absolute limit (racetrack conditions), a messy downshift will make your car very unstable, especially if you are not absolutely straight, because of the braking effect is only through the drive wheels.

aruffell

Ok... makes sense. Now I understand.

I have a hard time agreeing with what you say here. I have never raced on a track so I do not know how it is done in those scenarios. In extreme situtations, like just before a possible crash, it is unlikely that you will have time to downshift anyway so most will just push hard on the brakes and ABS should keep you in control... I would not press the clutch though until a near full stop so as to avoid stopping the motor.

In normal cases though, I simply can't understand how braking can be in any way better than doing both at the same time. To me it is like math... that is why I have a hard time accepting the idea that it isn't so......... but all your thoughts are interesting!