gwilliams6

Yes, purposely false defeat software masked VW diesel cars giving off more than 40 times the allowed emissions, Then the software would give a lower reading during any emissions testing. VW does not deny it.

Volkswagen stock drops 20% on US diesel recall probe

Gravey

iTrader: (3)

Scandalous!!!!

Love_Hounds

Someone else posted this too, but I think the fine amount was a lot less... Damn, still though, I'd ignore the recall if I owned one of the vehicles involved.

Love_Hounds

Here's the other thread: https://www.rx8club.com/general-auto...a-rule-260000/

gwilliams6

The $18billion fine amount is the max allowed under US EPA law for the number of diesel cars violations. Most expect the final penalty leveled on VW may be less, but still in the Billions of US dollars. This could be a game-changer in the American market with VW sales already struggling here. Word is now VW may be sued for fraud by diesel car owners who thought they were buying environmentally responsible cars. not cars that are emitting almost 40 times the legal limit of emissions. This also affects the resale value of these cars in the US. Also states like California are considering suing for sales fraud and air pollution.

gwilliams6

VW scandal widens from 500,000 vehicles to 11 million vehicles since 2009!!

Volkswagen scandal widens: $7.3 billion cost, 11 million cars - Sep. 22, 2015

Love_Hounds

I think it was on purpose so Audi would have more polluted air to create blue crude and e-Diesel...


(also, that was a joke)

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Also in this reduced emissions mode, the engine performs worse and consumes more fuel (it's a heat of combustion thing, it brings down NOx emissions by running rich). So if the cars are recalled and reflashed to be in this mode all the time, the current owners who couldn't care less about emissions will likely open a class action suit for having worse performance than originally advertised. Audi and Porsche diesels are also affected

So VW is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Poor VW. This was a silly and unnecessary mistake.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Here's What It Might Cost To Fix Each 2.0 TDI Volkswagen

Oh boy. Could be cheaper to buy all the older cars back than repair.

gwilliams6

Volkswagen names new CEO as scandal's fallout spreads - Sep. 24, 2015

VW cheated on millions of diesels in Germany also. !

Worldwide lawsuits grow, as well as billions in government fines, as well as the cost to change all these millions of vehicles which are polluting 40 times the legal limit.

VW does not even know how, or if, it can actually fix all these millions of illegally polluting cars.

MikeTyson8MyKids

iTrader: (1)

I don't think that is accurate at all. Just one example: Article says you need a temp sensor, which is correct, and puts a price on that.

Ok, that's great, and now you have a temp sensor...now where do you plug it in? Its on a car that doesn't have one....

Author failed to mention that new wiring, ecm, instrument cluster, etc...all these things. I would estimate it to be more in the 10k+ range per each car if the solution is urea/scr. I guess you could reflash and live with constant particulate filter issues and terrible mpg/performance.

Think all that extra stuff that needs to happen to put a v8 in an rx8, besides simply putting the v8 in the engine compartment. Tons of things need to be accounted for.

zoom44

This is where Mazda should step up and say "LOOK AT US OUR DIESELS ARE BETTER THAN THEIRS BECAUSE WE DONT CHEAT"

seriously Mazda NA has been saying they havent brought the diesels SA engines because the performance wasnt quite where they wanted for the US despite meeting the EPA requirements and having mpg and torque advantages. They were right and VW couldnt do it either. MAZDA should be out in front with a "go ahead and test us" stunt to prove their SA diesels are the best around because they dont need to cheat.

gwilliams6

Lawyers are lining up to take on Volkswagen - Sep. 26, 2015

ASH8

I often wondered how and why VW (VAG) obtained their emission pass (and performance), now we know.

Sneaky bastards..

BTW: This is worldwide, there is close to 3 million Diesels in Germany alone, much smaller in Australia and New Zealand, Canada.

Class actions have already started in Britain and although we don't really do 'class actions' in Australia we have other laws, fines and compo., VW will be made to full refund or replace the cars IF the owner wants to.

Make no mistake this is going to cost a lot more than the 11 Billion Euro's that VAG has set aside.

To think they even thought they would get away with it shows typical German arrogance.
To even code a program that ONLY starts up if and when OBD is connected to slightly restrict fuel use and then shuts off when OBD diagnostic plug is disconnect goes to show their deception.

A simple ECU update will fit it (remove it), however it is the Fines and the end game which will cost VW dearly, their world dominance is over before they made it, they were actually on track to take over Toyota this year..

This has set back the passenger vehicle Diesel industry by 20 years, remember 60% of all car sales in Europe are diesel.

Mazda and other brands are really not happy.

BTW: Audi is next...

ASH8

Charlie people believe too much in the BS car makers feed you.
Nothing to do with fuel or engine performance.

Even the ''modified'' SA-D engines are still crapping out.

All to do with..
1. PR nightmare.
2. Sales killer.
3. Mazda in USA can not afford 1 and 2.

THIS (TSB) is the real reason Mazda in USA does not have Diesels.
In every country where SA-D is sold EU, UK, ADR.
For Mazda 3, Mazda 6, Mazda CX-5.

ASH8

Now Tesla has some unhappy customers who have lost only 135 HP in their S P85D.

Tesla owners say Model S P85D power is inaccurate, company changes data on site

gwilliams6

Hi ASH8, The US sold diesels with the defeat software did include one of the Audi diesels along with several VW diesel models. America has huge class-action history and lawyers are hungry, salivating and lining up for the VW kill. These cases will be in courts worldwide for years and VW's saying they expect to come out of this stronger is wishful thinking.

They will have horrible PR for many years to come, and VW doesn't even really know HOW they can fix their cars. They don't have the technology to make diesel cars that don't pollute up to 40 times the legal limit. Countries are already banning the sales of these cars and others will soon order them off their roads, as VW's fines for polluting and fraud rise.

MikeTyson8MyKids

iTrader: (1)

They have the technology, which is exactly why they cheated. Scr/urea is expensive, the 2015+ have it.

Now, implementing that on the older 2.0 for the 2009+...that simple isn't going to happen. It would be 10k+ per car, easy.

I suspect they'll do a buyback, and put those cars in a part of the world where they don't have as strict emmisions.

gwilliams6

The affected models include cars from 2009 through to and including 2015 models.

VW Jetta TDI (Model Years 2009 – 2015)
VW Jetta SportWagen TDI (Model Years 2009-2014)
VW Golf TDI (Model Years 2010-2015)
VW Golf SportWagen TDI (Model Year 2015)
VW Beetle TDI and VW Beetle Convertible TDI (Model Years 2012-2015)
VW Passat TDI (Model Years 2012-2015)

And one 2015 Audi diesel model too.


They have no technology presently to clean up these cars, counting in the millions. Yes it may be cheaper to buy them all back. But that won't stop the billions in fines and lawsuit penalties.

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/volkswa...r-hybrid-cars/
There are claims here that the BMW X3 xDrive 20d is 11 times over the legal NOx limit.

I see random testing of all manufacturers' diesel cars being mandated. Tesla execs are already calling for it.

MikeTyson8MyKids

iTrader: (1)

You keep saying they don't have the technology to clean them up....sure they do. The 2015s are already equipped with the correct after-treatment system. If they don't pass NOx, it's very likely because they've lowered the amount of urea injection to make it cheaper for the user. Because of this, a reflash may be all the urea/scr equipped 2015 models need.

Now, for the 2009-2014 models, these are not equipped with urea/scr. Could it be retrofitted? Sure....but it's simply not financially viable to do that. It's proven they pass without urea/scr, but this was only in their dyno/cheat mode. To pass NOx without scr/urea, there will be much diminished performance, lower mpg, and frequent regenerations. So for this group of cars, the choice is to retrofit with the correct after- treatment (which won't happen because of cost), or running a similar map to their dyno/cheater mode (which no customer will find acceptable).

For the 2009-2014 group, buy-back probably makes the most sense.

Working for competitors, we've always wondered how VW managed to pass emmisions without that after treatment (and retain good performance). Now we know. Haha

gwilliams6

Read my post ,I am only talking about the recalled cars, these are the cars I am saying they don't have the tech to fix. Even VW spokespeople can't tell the press how they will actually fix these cars. So you seem to know how to fix these cars, but even VW does not know how to fix them. Um, you must be smarter than the VW engineers. I am not talking about 2016 models with larger engines and more expensive emission systems

MikeTyson8MyKids

iTrader: (1)

Ok...I'll try one more time....lol. VW has the technology. Its on the newest models. Now, does it make sense try to retro fit 10k worth of mods to a recalled car? Probably not. Does it make sense to run a fuel map similar to the "cheat" mode all the time? Depends on customer satisfaction.

The technology is there, but at great cost.

I doubt that I am smarter than the collective of VW diesel engine engineers, but I'm surely smarter than the management that decided to proceed with the emisions cheat in place. :/

VW spokespeople can't tell you, because they just got caught a little more than a week ago. Developing and implementing a plan to either buy back 11 million cars or fix 11 million cars takes more than 5 working days. Lol

ASH8

Over 2 Million Audi's are also now included in this emissions scam.

Apparently Robert Bosch warned VW back in 2007 that this defeat software inclusion is not legitimate and that they (VAG) are on their own if they include it. Bosch supplied this defeat software to VW but 'only' for testing purposes, VW decided to use it in production.

ASH8

Just for the record, the old/last diesel engine Mazda used before the Skyactiv Diesels was in the CX-7 Diesel which had the SCR (AdBlue)/ Urea treatment years ago, the new SA-D does not use or need it.

ASH8

2.1 Million Audi Diesels worldwide confirmed.

1.2 Million Skoda vehicles in Europe and Australia/NZ also confirmed.

Also confirmed that all of the 2.0l diesels sold by VW, Audi, Skoda, SEAT has the emissions defeating software.

German government has given VAG until October 7 to present 'their plan'.

Winterkorn (former CEO) is also facing fraud allegations in Germany.

China also has a few thousand Tiguan diesels.

Originally it was thought Only the 2.0l TDI was the one with the problem, now they are testing the 1.6 TDI and 1.2 TDI and larger 3.0l TDI.
PORSCHE is also in trouble.

IF this is the case they are talking every Diesel made/sold by VAG from 2007~......wow.