rx8wannahave

Hello everyone,

I was wondering what the good, bad, or otherwise can happen from staggered wheels setup. Most sports cars have this setup and I thought that when it came time to change my tires & rims I would go with a:

18x8
18x9

...setup. There are two drawbacks that I'm pretty sure about:

(1) I could see a slight fuel economy hit (more friction/rolling resistance)
(2) I can't rotate my tires from front to back (only side to side)

At the same time, I think the wider rear tires would help handling a little bit and if I add HP in the future (as I plan to) it would be better to have fatter tires.

So, what do you guys/gals think about staggerd wheels?

Note: A bonus of the fatter rear wheels would be that it would like better too

Audioslave8

I remember a thread not to long ago about staggerd wheels....let me see if i can find it.

Audioslave8

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ight=Staggered

rx8wannahave

Well, I will never assume again...I thought this probably was not discussed much, sorry...and thank your for the link...my mistake

dmp

Keep in mind at least ONE RX8 which ran 24hrs of Daytona last weekend used staggered wheels

rx8wannahave

From reading more on this it seems I have alot more to learn, but it's just funny that almost ALL high powered sports cars use a staggard setup. If it was so bad for handling why would all these sports/SUPER-cars have them.

I know, high HP demands it...but if adjustments could be made to the suspension then I think it could be worked out.

I know, don't know...know...and don't know about understeer Vs oversteer (I get them confused back and forth)

Understeer means that the car is not turning per what you direct it to, or steers less than what is inputed

while...

Oversteer means it steers more than what you requested....right???

I'll go search online and see...

Thanks!

RX8_Buckeye

The point is that the suspension needs to be set up appropriately if a staggered setup is to be used! A stock RX-8 will not handle well at all with a staggered setup. A 350Z is set up for the staggered wheel/tire size, so THAT is why it works. If you really know what you're doing, you could rig your suspension appropriately, but from the sounds of it you probably wouldn't know where to start. Don't do it! Give up on this idea unless you're willing to part with big $$$ to pay someone to modify your suspension.

rx8wannahave

OK OK...you big bully...lol

Yeah, I guess I"ll stick to the stock size. What am I worried about, heck...I wont need new tires for a long time and wont be messing with the HP until after warranty....

Gord96BRG

And even then, the 350Z doesn't work that well, as it understeers too much in its stock configuration. That link has a link to a SCC article where they reverted to same size front and rear on a project 350Z to get it to handle better.

Certainly not all sports cars have staggered setups (one of the best handling sports cars around, the Miata, doesn't!), but many of those that do have a LOT of hp, or are mid-engined with a heavy weight bias to the rear, and need the larger rear tires for controlling the extra mass. A 50/50 balanced car with neutral handling and no excessive amounts of hp (RX-8, anyone?) will not benefit from going staggered. Unless the suspension is retuned, as RX8_Buckeye says, you'll just end up with more understeer. IMHO, that's a downgrade, not an upgrade.

Regards,
Gordon

crossbow

Staggered setups are on high power sportscars because of lawyers.

A stupid idiot in a fast car, with wider rear tires then front, is less likely to spin out in traffic and wipe out a hoard of vehicles.

Instead he/she will just plow into the one directly in front of them. Its a safety/liability reason more then anything else.

Having same sized or even reverse staggered (wider fronts then rears) requires more careful throttle modulation in a RWD car, which also means the individual behind the wheels has to know more about what their doing to prevent the car from losing the tail under power, or under braking in a turn. Since most people who buy high end sports cars don't have the faintest idea of how to drive, thats why they stick with staggered setups. Most of those individuals are buying those cars for the "prestige" more then the speed anyway.

army_rx8

^^first i ever heard of this:D

slllygrl10

Army u on again lol. Im at work sucks. I never had problems turning my wheels.

BlueEyes

Don't be jealous man. While there are people who own them for the presitge, there are plenty more who own them for the shear joy of it. Speed is really only a small part of the equation when you talk about high $$ cars.

I wonder how many high $$ sports car owners you know? what is giving you the basis for these claims that 'most' don't know how to drive and own them for the prestige?

124Spider

Yeah, I know what you mean. The prestige of being complimented for having a Miata with an unusual color (Yellow) was the motivating factor for me in purchasing my S2000; its spectacular performance (on the road and on the track), and the sheer fun of driving it, did not enter into my decision.

Actually, of course, staggered wheels on performance cars set up for having staggered wheels have a significant bearing on performance (and safety). It is safe to say that engineers had much more to do with performance cars having staggered wheels than did lawyers.

BlueEyes

I thought he was talking about people with high end sports cars rather than people with staggered wheels.

Anyhow, I agree engineer vs. lawyer comment.

crossbow

I'm not going to throw out numbers of people I know or don't know..thats just virtual dick waving, and relatively pointless.

I'm just pointing out that if you look at an overall community...lets say porsche owners (example of a expensive prestige driven car), a very large % of those owners will never track, nor even aggressively drive their cars.

I do however know some high end repair shops for such cars, and can relate from the owners/mechanics of how many vehicles come in with tons of problems, and extremely low miles on the car...basically never driven hard, and driven in stop and go, to and from a meet. It gets to the point where some cars "ferrari's in particular" will actually rot from the inside out...as their oil sits and absorbs moisture over the course of years sitting in a garage...unused and unloved.

Btw, not to offend you, but an S2000 really isn't a prestige driven sports car. Its extremely fast, its unbelievable on the track, but if you put one next to a porsche, the general money driven consumer will believe the porsche to be faster, and thus more indicative of ones status. In no way am I "dissing" the s2000. Its one of the greatest roadsters you can possibly own, just pointing out joe consumers viewpoint.

Z/8/S2000 are all "affordable" sports cars. Most people can find a way to purchase a 30k vehicle, but will have quite a bit of trouble trying to get their hands on a new porsche boxter S.

Anyway, besides all that bs thats bound to get everyone's panties in a bunch...I suggest you pick up some copies of "best motoring" a review show in Japanese.

The show involves alot of driving on tracks, with comparisons between different cars, and different tuning setups. You'll find through the variety of episodes, that the cars which come equipped with a staggered setup show characteristics of understeer (in varying degrees) that is instantly countered by tuning the car to have equivilant or "reverse staggered" wheel/tire selection. The effects of such modifications are quickly realized in the laptimes, and the ease of controlling the balanced setup, vs the unbalanced one.

As mentioned earlier, there is an excellent article in SCC on the handling advantages of moving to such a configuration, and this is mimic'd in alot of "non US" review programs.

Topgear and 5th gear also go into the differences, and have a few episodes showcasing the inherent disadvantages of a staggered setup on a vehicle...even when the vehicle is proportionally producing an excess of power vs its stock configuration.

Oversteer/understeer is far better tuned with suspension tweaking and then "enhanced" with tire/wheel selection...then vice versa.

The fundamental problem with this debate (and wheel sizing/weight selection) is that everyone is invested both emotionally and financially in these wheels. This causes an instantanous negative response to any type of discussion on the involved parties, as they see it as an attack on their particular purchases...which of course psychologically makes it seem (to them) as if they are being called "stupid".

This of course isn't the case, but is almost impossible to get across without letting those individuals experience the alternative situations without financial or emotional burden to themselves.

Thus I encourage everyone who disagrees, to try and find a track, or local autox, and take ride alongs with a variety of cars and setups to experience the differences on the course/track. In reality only experience, not forums, will show you how a particular setup will change the handling/feel of a vehicle and the street isn't where you'll find that out.

124Spider

Certainly there are depressingly many people who buy those fabulous cars, and never take them to a track (and a significant number of those who do take them to the track don't drive them very well; have you ever been stuck behind some guy in a Porsche 993 who won't give you the point-by because he can't believe that a mere "Miata" is faster than he is?). Of course, the vast majority of RX-8s never see a track, either, but the RX-8 doesn't pretend to be a virtual race car like a Porsche or a Ferrari.

I would happily volunteer to give those marvelous cars a workout on the track from time to time. :p

I certainly can't argue with you there. One buys an S2000 for the performance and fun, not the prestige. I was only twitting you because you seemed to be equating cars with staggered wheels with "prestige" sports cars.

Yeah, but wouldn't we love to get our hands on the new Boxster S?

I am sure that this is a very technical issue; however, given that the vast majority of real race cars have significantly larger rear tires than front tires, I strongly suspect that staggered wheels/tires have a real place in high-performance handling. I certainly know, at the very least, that I have no interest in driving my S2000 on the track with rear tires the same size as my front tires .

crossbow

No I haven't...yet. But I will be going to Vir (http://www.virclub.com) at least once, if not twice this year. From what I hear, you start off terrified, and end up yelling at the damn slow *** M3 by the 4th lap cause he's going slow as $#@& and won't get out of your way. My experience tallies about 60-70 autox runs nows, so of course I've decided to blow more money on the track.

I was trying to reinforce the whole lawyer thing with highend sports car due to the populace that usually drives them. It wasn't the best example, but it was all I had. Many individuals who do track car's like the boxter, will increase the front tire size to match the rear...sometimes increasing both at the same time to promote more of an oversteer and less of an understeer bias.

Ha ya, those things are twitchy as hell. I think they calmed down the 04 model a bit, but every time I've ridden in one at an autox...if they so much as slip up a bit, you be spinning.

I still think if you increased BOTH the rear and front tires and evened them out, it would still prove benefical...but you'd probably need to do something with that rear suspension to avoid killing yourself .

124Spider

Well, with 60-70 autox runs, you might catch on that quickly, but there's a huge difference between doing laps averaging 80mph or more, with speeds of up to 130mph and as low as 30mph, and autox. I did a high performance driving school for starters, and certainly was terrified my first time out; by the end of the day, I was much more comfortable, then really started getting it the next time I went out (in which I got to do as many laps as I cared to do, and I had a half-time coach). Lapping is a blast, but a bit more of a pucker factor than autox, where the worst that can happen is to kill a cone, which is a lot better than this.



I just got track tires for my S2000--I got both front and rear a bit wider than stock, which seems to work well with the '04.



Yeah; I'm still having trouble figuring out how to go fast in an autox without spinning. When you figure it out, they're really fast, but I'm a newbie.

I have an intuitive feeling, FWIW, that a car this twitchy needs more rear rubber than front rubber. I'm going to put a big front bar in, and it'll be interesting to see if that induces too much understeer on the track. It'll be adjustable, so I'll have some wiggle room.

rx8wannahave

How about the topic guys....LOL

Most HIGH HP cars have a staggard setup, that is a fact. But, my baby is not a high HP car and it might never be...so I'll listen to what you all are saying...

If I had 325HP or more I'd go with 18x9 all around...there, are you happy...LOL, naa...I would not listen and go staggard...lol

army_rx8

the rx-8 (auto) that re-amemiya turbocharged is running 19x8.5 rims with 245/35/19 tires in teh front and 19x9.5 rims and 275/30/19 tires in the rear. Re-amemiya is a very well respected car tuner (rotary) in Japan. I wouldn't think they woud lgo stagered if it totaly scrwed up the handling of the 8. granted it probable has a lill more understeer...but give her a lill more as and no problem; also you can switch out your rear sway for a stiffer one and this should counteract the added understeer. at least as far as i can tell with my limited knowledge. :D

rx8wannahave

There you have it folks...staggard does not = SIN

crossbow

If you read into the car carefully, you'll most likely find they are running a completely different setup on the track.

This whole staggered vs non staggered discussion is for performance driving. It doesn't matter what the hell you do on the street. Bling bling and whatever looks best at the cost of performance is always the priority for street only vehicles.

As I said earlier, check out alternative review sites and programs...and visit autox/tracks...thats where you find the performance, not magazine photoshoots. If you check alot of the previous turbo magazine issues (and SCC) they'll have these massive wheels in giant staggered setups for the photos, and then briefly mention the completely different setup they run on the track. Its usually at the end and there are no photos to go along with the smaller wheels/tire setup. I'd go and snag the articles, but honestly, I doubt it would change your stoic opinion, and would be largely a waste of my time. So believe whatever makes you the happiest.

Aye thats why I'm taking "driver education" and "driver education and safety" track events. If I pass anyone, it'll probably be because they ran out of gas. I'm just going to learn and improve my skills. Mods for the car mean nothing unless your improving the driver at the same time! Best of luck with the S2000!

Gord96BRG

That's not off-base at all, especially for American cars - the legal departments have a significant say in the performance tuning of a vehicle. For example, try to find a Ford or GM vehicle where it's remotely possible to heel/toe - they have specific design specs to keep the throttle pedal far away from the brake pedal to prevent ANY chance of stepping on both at once, completely ignoring the fact that many enthusiast drivers want/need to step on both pedals with one foot at the same time. For another example, consider brake bias - its an absolute requirement that the front brakes lock first, to the point that they build a huge margin of bias in to the brake balance of American cars.

However, between engineer and lawyer, you forgot one other department that often out-votes the engineering department - the marketing department. They're in collusion with the lawyers when it comes to the staggered tires, because they know there's the impression of high performance that comes with staggered tires, so they often insist on it to generate more sales or more profits. BMW is a victim of this - their Sports Suspension options here often include wider rear wheels and tires, and the cars with those do not have as good a balance as the cars with the base wheels with same-size tires front and rear. Another example of the marketing department over-riding the engineering department, especially at Porsche and Ferrari - the use of cross-drilled brake rotors. They originated on racing cars in the late 60s for a very specific reason, to allow outgassing from the hot pads without causing fade (the phenomenon of very hot brake pad materials generating significant amounts of hot vapours, which would form a frictionless gas layer between pad and disc at times, causing big brake fade). Race cars didn't care that drilled rotors were prone to cracking, because they replaced the rotors very frequently, usually after every race. With modern brake pad materials of the last 10 years, though, out-gassing is pretty much eliminated, and with it the need for drilled rotors. However, you still find drilled rotors on Porsche and Ferrari, and big aftermarket demand for drilled rotors, yet they have no performance advantage over solid rotors! (just the opposite, in fact, since more mass is better for brake rotors - drilling removes mass) Both Porsche and Ferrari engineers have admitted that their cars wear drilled rotors for marketing reasons, not performance reasons, but the customers in the showrooms never hear those technical discussions, and still want the drilled rotors, even paying extra for them. A marketing department's dream!

Regards,
Gordon

rotarenvy

from my experiences with 18x9 39+ all round I have noticed the steering response is now a little dull. I feel this is due to offset and tyre choice rather than width. I would now choose a smaller wheel like 18 x 8.5 and nothing over 40+ as this size is suitable for the 235/40/18 tyre I want to run.

I reckon a staggered set-up would be an excellent compromise and probably would retain a better steering feel if you really want large tyres on the back.