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Old 04-26-2012, 08:40 PM   #51
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I don't see any change in the volume of an engine. The amount of engineering would be cost prohibitive. They've already spent a lot of money getting a 1.6 together.
If the 1.6L can't meet emissions targets, it can't meet emissions targets. If they have to scrap it, they will scrap it.
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Old 04-29-2012, 09:37 AM   #52
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I have moved on from my RX8, had a tuned 370Z which I just sold and am carless right now. I know that the guy I was chatting with could be talking off his head, but I figure that before I jump to my next car, I can wait it out to see what happens!! It is worth a shot!

I will keep driving my T4R for now. I have a brother in law that works for Mazda (have not chatted with him in over a year). Seems like a good opportunity for us to chat now about this!!
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:22 PM   #53
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Huh...

I am watching the Barber Grand-Am race that I had DVRed and missed. The announcer made a comment relaying his discussion with Speedsource:
"The car is about tapped out in terms of potential, but there is a really unique engine on the drawing board for next year."


hmmmmmm

As in, more unique than a 20b?


It's one of those things that doesn't tell you anything, but at the same time, suggests awesomely...
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:26 PM   #54
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Formul8 Thanks dude lol
did you catch the rolex series today? speedsource's crew chief was interviewed and said the same thing pretty much
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:33 PM   #55
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With all the cautions from rain, I was only half paying attention. I missed the comment, and already deleted it from the DVR.

It's.... interesting.

I am hoping that it doesn't mean a SkyActive piston powered car, since there really isn't anything about SkyActive that race teams don't already use (race gas really says it all there...). But by Grand-Am rules, they have to run an engine that is available for consumer use. Not that the 20B is, but it WAS, and Grand Am has had an exception there to "extend" the usage time of it.

I don't see Grand-Am letting them run an engine that they "hope to make available" to consumers. But, at the same time, if it's just a re-designed rotary that we are hoping for, can it really be called "really unique"? It's be unique for NASCAR, Formula 1, Indy, etc... but Grand-Am already has rotaries, so...


It's intriguing, that's for sure.
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by RIWWP View Post
Huh...

I am watching the Barber Grand-Am race that I had DVRed and missed. The announcer made a comment relaying his discussion with Speedsource:
"The car is about tapped out in terms of potential, but there is a really unique engine on the drawing board for next year."


hmmmmmm

As in, more unique than a 20b?


It's one of those things that doesn't tell you anything, but at the same time, suggests awesomely...
We can finally get VteC ?

seriously, unless they release a new car late this year, there is no way SpeedSource can use it for next yr's race --- I thought they have to use car thats in "production" to race in Grand AM ?
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:25 PM   #57
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The three rotor I envision uses one rotor as a pre-charger (probably the center one) forcing compressed mixture into the other two rotors, IOW, a systemic supercharged rotary engine. That boost may allow a smaller fired chamber size to achieve current or better output levels.
This was the idea behind one of the wankel diesel proposals, to increase air/fuel charge pressure.
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:54 PM   #58
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We can finally get VteC ?

seriously, unless they release a new car late this year, there is no way SpeedSource can use it for next yr's race --- I thought they have to use car thats in "production" to race in Grand AM ?
Entirely agree, which makes it even more intriguing. "Are they going to use a SkyActive based engine?" "Is it going to be a new rotary?" Are really the two questions it comes down to. The wording chosen both times "unique engine" is really the interesting part. If you look at what Mazda did in the engine that makes it SkyActive, there really isn't anything there to use that race teams already aren't. High compression? check. Unique piston shapes? check. Long tube headers? check. So there isn't anything about SkyActive that would make a race team and announcers call it "unique". A rotary WOULD be considered unique in many circles, but it's been part of Grand-Am for so long that it may not be "unique" enough any more.

And then yes, there is the rules that stipulate a production source. Does this mean Mazda will release a very limited run of rotary car with this engine to get it in? (unlikely) Does this mean that Mazda yet again convinced Grand-Am to stretch the rules in their favor to let them run? (possibly, after all, the 3-rotors in use is stretching the rules) Perhaps it's the series first hydrogen powered cars? (maybe?)

What makes it so unique that it is the term being used?

I could see Grand-Am, from a PR / Advertising / Fan base perspective, doing what they can to keep a rotary alive in the series. They can't make the rotary, so if Mazda were to give up on it like so many nay-sayers think they should, then it wouldn't stay in Grand-Am either. But Mazda does. Ever notice that in Grand-Am races, the often sit on an in-car camera on one of the RX-8s to and/or from commercials? They use it as background sound TONS. You can often find commentators discussing the symphony of engines and sounds from the range of GT cars. You would be missing a part of what makes Grand-Am so good if you lose the rotary.

My gut feeling is that Mazda convinced Grand-Am to let them run their new rotary 1 or more years AHEAD of production. Use it as a full fledged pounded testing ground. I'd entirely bet that other manufacturers have been doing that for years, decades. But they can do it without bending the rules because anything "new" about an engine can easily be concealed within the block as just more engine development. Technically, Mazda can do the same, if they were to play with the geometry of the internals they could do it "hidden" in the engine block with consumers non-the-wiser. But, with any change making a radical difference to the dynamics of the engine, it's unlikely that Grand-Am wouldn't notice. Grand-Am made an exception in the "current" word for the 20b, perhaps they are for the next one? If I was Mazda, I'd jump at the chance to prove out the next rotary in Grand-Am, and if I was Grand-Am, I'd be working to keep them in the sport and let them use new engine designs.

Just a feeling. No proof. No claims.

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Old 04-30-2012, 07:19 AM   #59
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What they run next year will definitely wear the 'Skyactiv' banner .

Paul.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:12 AM   #60
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What they run next year will definitely wear the 'Skyactiv' banner .

Paul.
See Paul, that doesn't answer a single one of my questions All it means is that it ISN'T the same engine as before, and that it is a newer engine than they currently have!
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:47 AM   #61
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See Paul, that doesn't answer a single one of my questions All it means is that it ISN'T the same engine as before, and that it is a newer engine than they currently have!
can diesels race into GrandAM?

there is a "project" for a race diesel engine for Mazda.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:01 AM   #62
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What size is the displacement? Mazda's product line doesn't need (or have space for) a larger engine.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:15 AM   #63
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A word search through the GT class rules does not find any usage of the word diesel, gas, or gasoline. Only "fuel". All "fuel" references were regarding the fuel system and safety. I could not find a reference to "approved fuels".

So in theory, diesel IS a possibility. As is hydrogen.

It's a possibility, that's for sure. And would be quite unique. Not sure how they would get past the "no FI" rule, unless Grand-Am plans to modify that for the next season, since N/A diesel isn't really viable. Perhaps the 1 rotor being the "supercharger". The American Lemans cars have quite a few diesels in their field, and Mazda runs there too, so the race engine could just be for there, but there could still be some cross over.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:44 AM   #64
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Torque is a consequence; it is not fundemental. Neil Armstrong rode to the moon on a completely torque-free Saturn V rocket. A 250 lb man standing on the pedal of his bicycle at 1 mph generates more torque than a Renny, but I suspect few would argue than even a stock RX-8 would beat him in a 1/4 mile drag race.
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:52 AM   #65
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Hot off the press from Moscow...

Moscow motor show: Mazda commits to rotary | Autocar

Speaking at the Moscow motor show, Mazda boss Takashi Yamanouchi has reaffirmed the company's commitment to the rotary engine. He revealed plans to launch a new range extended car using the engine next year, and to keep developing rotary applications for use in future sports cars.

Concerns had been raised that the rotary engine would not be part of Mazda's future after production of the RX-8 ended in June. However, although he would not reveal whether the range extended car will be new or based on an existing vehicle, Yamanouchi revealed it will only be leased in Japan initially.

"We are still learning," he said. "the rotary has very good dynamic performance, but if you accelerate and brake a lot there are efficiency disadvantages. The range extender overcomes that. We can keep it spinning at it's most efficient 2000rpm while also taking advantage of it's size."
Mazda has previously explored petrol and hydrogen driven range extended motors.

Yamanouchi also revealed that research into future uses of rotary engines would continue so long as he worked at Mazda.

"When I joined the company in 1967, it was the rotary engine that motivated my decision," he said. "We continue to explore ways to improve the fuel efficiency and capabilities of the rotary engine so it can be the primary power source of a car again."
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:57 AM   #66
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Well Mr Yamanouchi respectfully you can keep your 2000 RPM "Range Extender" "rotary" in Japan...as it ain't a Rotary ...ONLY 2000 RPM.

However, I am glad he said the last dozen or so words at the end because this is the ONLY way most will every buy a Rotary again..so it can be the primary power source of a car again


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Old 08-29-2012, 06:08 AM   #67
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2K rpm ? ...

yea i agreed with u ASH, they can keep that only in Japan ... me ... no ... interested ...
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:22 AM   #68
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Maybe Mazda can start selling little gas powered rotary generators or riding lawn mowers with CVT transmissions to keep those tiny rotors going at just 2K rpm...
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:47 AM   #69
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...Or sell a shitload of them to europe with gas costing 2€\l nowadays.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:48 PM   #70
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/\ Another reason 'why' the rotary is dead...finished.

The RENESIS gave them a chance and they blew it.

BUT, it will be forever be remembered as a guzzler and oil burner and dirty, it has been for over 40 years, Nothing has changed that much, real MPG gains are very questionable.
Any larger capacity rotary uses more gas not less, the most economical was the 10A, I don't care if the 16X is 'a' long stroke, makes no difference , it will use more gas than a 13B/Renesis.

Yamanouchi is never going to announce to the world that the Rotary is finished, he is already having a hard enough time making the company profitable, do you think he wants the share price to plunge even further.

If it ain't primary it ain't a rotary..
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:56 PM   #71
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A rotary generator would be excellent in boosting positive reliability remarks and make Mazda look somewhat innovative. Skyactiv isn't heavily marketed here, we only hear about BMW's and VAG group bullshit.

They could learn a lot from a rotary generator, like making a bigger engine with a real variable intake system with primary intake ports designed for cruising only and bigger ports for when you're pushing. That's basically what most variable intake valve engines do and what the Renesis poorly accomplished.

With these gas prices cars aren't selling well and the few who do are diesels. Mazda needs to look into that first. Of course i'd love a decent rotary engine that doesn't need reliability mods from the get go to be really reliable. Sadly, that's what the renesis is.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:00 PM   #72
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Ash,

Does the Renesis use more gas at 2,000rpm than the 10A did at 4,000rpm?


Sure, a larger capacity engine uses more fuel for a given combustion, but if that was the only rule then V8s would simply never be able to produce the mileage that I4s can. It's all about thermal efficiency and how much work you can do for a given unit of fuel. The rotary engine hasn't been all that fantastic with it, but just like you can engineer an 8 cylinder engines to be more efficient than whatever 4cyl engine you have on hand at the time, a larger capacity rotary does not strictly mean lower fuel economy.

Lots of ways to tackle the problem.


Even the method I brought up some time ago. Would you be so heavily opposed to having an in-line electric motor that supplements power, with it's electrical charge being provided by taking advantage of the high energy exhaust stream from the rotary? What about a hybrid that is gear dependant, where 6th gear's output shaft isn't to the same output shaft of gears 1-5, but instead goes to an electric generator, and the engine shifts to a unique map designed specifically for generating electricity, which is fed to an electric motor. Gears 1-5 are raw flame spitting rotary joy, 6th gear is series hybrid long distance cruising with crazy high gas mileage.

Lots of ways to tackle the problem. Gotta think outside the box

With their innovation with the piston engine around Sky Active, do you really justify saying that they aren't creative/smart/innovative enough to get a rotary to do what they want?
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:01 PM   #73
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This is why I wish one of the profitable/powerhouse automotive company would give Mazda a chance and buy them over (namely an European, or Toyota, or Renault-Nissan, or whichever else that is profitable), so they can put in a ton of money into R&D into the rotary engine. I would very very much wish the rotary engine be the primary power source for Mazda, that would be wicked!!
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:07 PM   #74
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No, no no no no.

If Mazda ever gets bought out and "taken over", I'm jumping ship to another car company. Mazda is the only car company willing to put any money into the rotary at all. Any other company that takes them over is going to ditch every last hope, destroy the production lines, fire the rotary specialists, etc... They will also neuter the cars to boring dullness.

Mazda makes the cars they do because they WON'T follow the big manufacturers. You won't get the same car if a big company is calling the shots.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:11 PM   #75
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Yet Audi uses a rotary in his e-tron a1, thanks to mazda.

That would be the way to go. Develop a reliable generator and increase profits by selling it to other manufacturers.
Everybody's doing it, it's time for Mazda to follow.
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:11 PM
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