GotZoom

Did we start the rush of 4-Door sports cars?

Porsche Panamera: The fourth line Porsche is to bring out a four-door GT with V8 and V10-Motor in 2009 under the model name Panamera . The concept will be presented by autumn at the IAA to the public. After Cayman for the Boxster Coupé (debut on the IAA in the autumn) now Panamera for the fourth Porsche line. The Stuttgart sportscar manufacturers protected both names on the same day (15.1.2004) at the German patent office. At the latest by autumn this year Porsche wants to present its concept for the fourth line. The most important first in brief: It's a four-door and four-seated front engine car with rear- and all-wheel drive, V8 and V10-engines with a range from 340 to over 600 PS. The prices are to be settled between 100.000 and 150.000 €. Annually 20,000 units are focused. The assembly in Leipzig is to begin 2009.

PaulyG CT

Not so new for Porsche. They have been playing with a 4 door for 15 years with a prototype called the 989 in 1990: http://www.flat-6.net/forum/showcar....ar_model_id=42

-PaulyG

jsh1120

I think the development stems both from a desire to expand the market from traditional "sports car" configurations and the popularity of sports sedans. This kind of cross fertilization of traditional designs is all the rage these days.

Ike

I know I'm a little biased but I think the WRX started the horsepower wars and certainly jumpstarted the movement towards more practical yet fun to drive sporty cars.

PaulieWalnuts

A little biased????

m477

BMW had been making practical sporty cars for decades before the WRX came out.

And the WRX didn't start any horsepower wars. In Japan, cars like the "Godzilla" R32 GT-R and 300ZX twin turbo came out several years earlier, and in America the V-8's had been battling it out for over 30 years before the WRX ever got here.

army_rx8

so said Darth Vader...i for one am going to listen and agree with him........."the force is strong with this one" hahaha

Ike

We're not talking Japan we're talking the cars that are in the US. The WRX when introduced had a target sales goal of 10k units per year, they sold 30k in the first year. You don't think other car companies took note of that and got to work to get a slice of that market? Also I'm sure it helped push many projects forward that had potential of being scraped in addition to starting new projects. As a result of the WRX being brought to the US Mitsubishi scuried to introduce the Evo to the US as well when there were no previous plans to bring it over. Prior to the WRX the only moderately performance oriented Japanese car being sent to the US was the RSX Type S. Had the WRX failed Japan would have continued to assume that Japanese performance cars were a lost cause in the US and I highly doubt we'd have the selection of high powered Japanese and Sport Compact cars that we do today.

At the time of the WRX introduction there wasn't even a car that could come close to competing with the WRX for the price. In fact since you brought up BMW one of the early car mags compared the WRX to the S4 and the XI 3 series because they couldn't come up with anything else that it wouldn't just destroy, the WRX fared very well, especially considering the price difference. Yes BMW has been making sporty yet practical cars for years, but the price we had to pay for them wasn't practical for most of us.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1

Edit: Forgot to mention that at the time the WRX was introduced the F-Body was being nixed from production and the Stangs were less impressive performance wise than the cars they replaced. All the american car makers had taken a step back when it came to performance save for the C5 vette and Viper which are not the least bit practical nor inexpensive.

markd

Euw, that red car looks like a Chrysler Concorde. I don't think the RX-8, even as a 4-door, is anywhere in that progeny of cars.

chinx

either way, that porsche panamera, however excellent it'll probably be, will most likely be one of the ugliest cars on the road. no offense. boxsters and 911s are real nice, but aside from those porsche can't design pretty cars. the cayenne looks butt ugly, even though it's a really good truck. i think we can basically expect a porsche version of the merc cls or maser quattroporte from the panamera

and i don't think this *4-door sports car* thing necessarily got started w/ the RX-8. what we're seeing is more a reflection of what the public is interested in and the reactions of the manufacturers to cash that in. if something like the RX-8 came out in the 80's i don't think it'd be nearly as successful

chinx

i don't think we're just talking about cars in the US. this thread started talking about the porsche panamera and the ongoing interest about unconventional *sports cars.* true the wrx helped jumpstart a renewed interest in import performance cars, but you gotta remember practical fun-to-drive sporty cars existed even in the us way before the wrx got here. examples include the 240Z, the original RX-7, even the mustangs (especially the V6 ones, cheap and fun and sporty), the old sentra se-r, the integras, the first and second gen eclipses, miatas, the golf GTI's (espeically the first ones)... what the wrx did was to open the door to rally cars in the us, which was not very marketable here before then. the only ones before wrx that were sold in the us were the mazda 323 gtx, or maybe the legacy turbo and galant vr4, and all of those weren't really successful sales-wise. granted, practically speaking wrx was the first of the affordable yet high content performance cars to come back from japan, but even as subaru was brining in the wrx nissan was in the process of hatching the new z and mazda the new rotary, both of which had america in mind

Ike

Most of the cars you mentioned were either not practical, not sedans or not successful sales wise. So even if we're not talking about cars in the US (which I think we are) we're most certainly talking about sporty sedans. You also failed to mention the one standout from years ago in the DSMs since you were just naming coupes for the most part. Sure the Z and the RX-8 were already in the works but don't you think that the pricing of the WRX may have played a bit of a role in the Z and RX-8 and many others being as affordable as they are? Lastly, if you read the second post you'll note that a Porsche sedan has been in the works since before even the FD was introduced.

chinx

touché

sounds like you really really love wrx's

and GTI, eclipse, and integra were not popular and not successful and not practical. ok

Ike

I like my WRX quite a bit, but it does have its shortcomings. I don't think the perfect car exists and if it ever does I'm pretty damn sure I won't be able to afford it. :p

The GTI, DSM and Tegs have been pretty successful, but they fall into the coupe category.

rotten42

no ****!!! :D

ILIV48

We had small 4 door AWD turbo Mitsubishi's (origin of the evo) here in Oz quite a few years here before the advent of the WRX. These little mitsubishi's were blowing the doors off of the big V8's here and running rings around just about anything when it came to handling. They were great.

Then just as the idea of a practical AWD turbo sedan started to gather main stream credibility Mitsubishi stopped importing them.

A little later Subaru imports the impreza wrx and the market that was still lamenting the disapearance of the little Mitsubishi's went nuts for the WRX. Now in Australia the WRX is an icon.

It was a huge mistake by Mitsubishi and they still know it. They created this market here then walked away just as it was about to thrive.... bloody fools

LiveToRev

The shape looks a little like the 612 Scaglietti.

Ike

Was it the same thing as the Galant VR4? That car didn't get very well recieved here and not many people even know it exists. There are a couple up at the local strip that run 12s and are still daily drivers and total sleepers. I'd love to have one as a project car but they're damn hard to come by. Subaru may not have done it first, but they did it best whether it be luck in timing or just a great product.

Plus you just ahve to love how Mitsubishi and Subaru just keep trying to one up one another, it makes them strive for better and better cars each year and we only benefit as the consumer. Now that the Evo 9 has been unveiled I can wait to see what Subaru has up they sleeve, you know damn well they're just not going to sit back and be satisfied with the current STi.

ILIV48

No it wasn't the galant VR4. It was smaller than that. It was about 1000 - 1100kg & approx 150kw.

I am pretty sure it was an early lancer around 1993. Unlike the Subaru's, Mitsubishi made these AWD turbo rockets and then out of that platform developed the down spec general Lancer range. I just can't remember the name of this car.

LiveToRev

1988 Mitsubishi Cordia Turbo, 1988 Tredia Turbo, 1989 Mirage Turbo??? The only AWD turbocharged cars by Mitsubishi, sold in the US during the early 90's was the 3000GT VR-4, the Galant VR-4, and the Eclipse GSX.

No More Oldsmobiles

Oldsmobile started the current horsepower wars with the 1996 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight. The LSS had a supercharged engine at 240 hp.

(Hey, my claim may be goofy, but it is no less legit that the others.)

Ike

Save for the fact that the olds wasn't actually fast nor sell well... :p

124Spider

Perhaps more than a little biased. It's anybody's case to make who actually started it, and when, but long before the WRX came on the scene, Toyota had been selling the AWD turbocharged Celica All-Trac (starting in 1988, I believe), which was (and is) both practical and fun to drive/sporty; it also won two world rally championships. And Audi began selling AWD, sporty cars in 1980, and they sold a 20 valve, 220bhp version as early as 1990.

Subaru certainly can be credited with making AWD available to a greater portion of the masses, in fun, sporty (if unattractive :p ) cars, but it is a bit of a stretch to assert that the WRX "started" anything. Automotive progress has been almost exclusively an evolutionary process, with few revolutionary events, and one could hardly include the WRX in that category.

Ike

The WRX was directly responsible for the Evo coming to the market which led to the STi being brought stateside. All three of those cars I'm sure played a large roll in cars like the SRT-4, Cobalt SS, being introduced. I guess I shouldn't have said the WRX didn't start anything as much as revitalize the performance car industry as many manufacturers had given up on them and were focusing on SUVs and more familiy oriented vehicles.

124Spider

Agreed. The WRX, and especially the STi, were noteworthy steps in the evolutionary process.

Why can't Subaru get a better designer, though. I was at a two day track school last weekend. There was record rain, which was a drag, but I took a ride for a few laps in my instructor's hopped-up STi, and it was quite an experience--the car stuck to the wet track so much better than my car, and it had at least 100bhp more than mine. But it's still a box. :p