kickerfox

Is this how u rack up 14,335 posts? Please, If your not interested in the thread, can you refrain from shitting in it?

stickmantijuana

he's one of the more knowledgeable members on the forum

kickerfox

That may be but he seems to have a thing against this project but offers no usable input.

Mawnee

But why start with such a low NA number? That is the EXACT problem with the renesis. It will only go so far before you are beyond its reliability limits. The BMW swap that Fastlaneracing is doing has 50% more power than your engine right off the bat. All things being equal he has more room to grow while keeping things safe as far as engine longevity. The extra weight is a moot point when the power difference is so significant. The same goes for cost. By the time you do your swap, then spend the money to boost it and work out those bugs, you would have been better off just choosing a stronger NA engine in the first place.

X7rotor

iTrader: (2)

If it helps my previous car was a mivec v6 3.8 and it wasnt faster in midrange peformence compared to my renesis.. all this talk isnt going to help much your still slower..

kickerfox

Then there's something wrong with it. (See image) Maybe it's just because it's a little heavier it doesnt feel the same? I don't know.

Fastlaneracing engine has 375ft-lbs of torque? I'm not worried about the power of a larger engine being able to make up for the additional weight as far as acceleration is concerned. If I was all about 1/4mi racing I wouldn't care. My concern is the large long iron i6 hanging out in front of the wheels. i6 torque with massive oversteer is what I see going on.

That said...

I'm in no way shape or form defending the Isuzu engine. I know little about it other then the sprinkle of facts I can gather online through countless hours of searching and reading threads. It has two major downfalls when it comes to getting serious horsepower out of it. It's open deck and has a cast crank. Everything else about it is fine. I hear people getting 400hp out of them with the Alpine supercharger kits. The most important fact about the Isuzu v6 is that the transmissions options are limitless. I can't find another aluminum v6 engine with suitable transmission options. All the AFFORDABLE v6s I've found don't have RWD cousins except for some GM pushrod engines like the 60deg v6 engines.

Toyota's 1MZ-FE is an excellent engine and very easy to find. Very strong bottom end. I spent days looking into it. The only RWD option someone found involved cutting a hunk of the block off so a starter would fit from the engine side.

If you guys can think of something by all means, shoot me some engine codes so I can look them up.

Mitsu v6 stock.

fastlaneracing

Some one isnt listening...

kickerfox

To what?

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

If all you're looking for is 250whp put a friggin GReddy on it or nitrous with the BHR adapter.

kickerfox

Reliability and economy.

fastlaneracing - Do you have a build thread? I couldn't find it if you do.

kickerfox

Well, 3 cast side housings vs. a i6 block? I have considered the "give a little take a little" concept. Such as that steering rack. I loose the heavy electric assist rack but I add a hyd. pump, lines, and fluid. I probably break even there but I will be loosing the engine oil coolers along with their lines and fluids. If the engine is a bit forward, stick the battery in the trunk, but don't forget 10lb of battery cables. The devil is in those little details so I won't go there yet.

What does the BMW i6 weigh undressed? From what I've read, the Renesis is 267.5lbs dressed with flywheel. The Isuzu is 354lbs dressed (from Isuzu manual). I'd bet the i6 is at least that. I know it's a hell of an engine like the Toyota JZs. All things equal, the cylinder arrangement shouldn't effect output aside from the V arrangement having a lighter crank. I'm strictly speaking NA forms here.

I'll be sticking with OEM ECUs but I might have to use a piggyback to tune it. I enjoy wiring up electrical systems. I'm very good with electrical systems and following schematics. I repair electronics, including my tube amp hobby, so I better be able to follow the flow.

EDIT - S54 = 478lbs (dressed) online sources

Mawnee

How much weight does that supercharger and supporting mods on the isuzu engine add? And keep in mind this will be weight on the top of an already top heavy engine. I cant quite figure you out. you take these strong stances in a particular area, yet completely ignore the negatives they bring. You are doing this as a performance upgrade, but dont care about performance. You care about weight, but dont really care about weight where it matters and/or makes a real difference.

BTW. I could have sworn that BMW block was aluminum with iron sleeves. Is this not the case with the particular model Fastlane used? It seems to weigh about the same as an LS1.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

sub'd

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

200 lbs placed anywhere is not going to make a LOT of difference in a dual purpose car ( street/performance}. It will be quite acceptable.

Mawnee

I agree. Personally i'd just drop in the heavy more powerful engine in the first place. Put it as low and as far back as possible and call it a day. I can't see ignoring superior engine options for weight. When in the end to reach similar power the net weight difference will be what 75lbs? Its ludicrous.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

here is one that I bet never entered your mind-- I know the OP will remember but for everyone else--please remember the potentil--not the oem specs.
Ford Taurus Sho 3 2 Engine 3 2L Used 93 95 HB0258 | eBay

stickmantijuana

I agree. It's all about trying to reach for the ever elusive the-faster-speed. For most of us wanting a dual purpose car, I don't think the difference truly matters. For example, I tried some race rubbers on for the first time about a year ago, and that experience made me realize I was just wasting time & money trying to get the engine placed just right thinking that's going to be the key in getting the car around the track faster. I'm sure the ideal placement & a few pounds matter if you're looking to shave a tenth off a lap, but most of us just wouldn't care. Case in point, I probably spend about 40-50k in getting engine installed "low and back", but I still drive on my street tires on the track knowing it's about 3-4 seconds slower per lap than race tires. I go to tracks to play, not work, and the best engine placement & a few hundred pounds sure don't matter on the tracks or on the streets.

kickerfox

"IT RAN NICE WITH 210 TO 240 LBS OF COMPRESSION" I bet it did. What's that about 14:1CR?

The SHO v6 (Yamaha) was one of the first engines considered, then Suzuki (great engine btw), then VW, then Honda, then Toyota, then Isuzu.

None of the OEMs make an affordable v6 that covers all the design bases. They all drop the ball in one area or another.

To those discussing my Isuzu consideration, The 2004 GDI Isuzu v6 was 250 hp 246lb-ft torque. The Renesis 165lb-ft torque and 235hp. The v6 in question is a significant improvement. 50% more torque and probably 50% better mileage. The Axiom is 16/22 but has the aero-dynamics of a shed.

To those discussing v6 vs. i6. Even with supercharger hardware it's still lighter then a cast iron i6 engine and it's further back in the engine bay. We can't really go off dressed numbers anyways because who knows what's being bolted to it. You guys seem to only consider bottom line performance numbers but not general drivability, driver enjoyment, and ease of installation. It has many transmission ratio options to make use of it's torque. There's no way you'll be able to convince me that an NA i6 is a better choice then an NA v6.

As for wiring. I won't be using the 8's ECU. I'll be using the ECU from another car and wiring it into the 8's body electronics. I most likely have to remove the ABS and stability control systems.

If the i6 in question (M54) is a closed deck aluminum block, I'll look into it... Yes it is. Wonder what that engine would cost me. I'd still rather have a v6.

Here's a bunch of great pictures of the M54's heads and block. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1323175

Not for me.

Must be nice.

bse50

What you say makes no sense. The Isuzu engine is meant for SUVs and both the power curve and delivery are meant to suit that kind of vehicle: the sooner the better.
What makes the underpowered renesis stand out is its broad power delivery and relatively flat torque curve. TQ and HP are are just part of the equation.

ISUZU isn't known for making performance engines, BMW on the other hand is known for filling average, overpriced cars with outstanding engines. I'd take their I6 over an isuzu v6 all day long.

WingleBeast

I am torn between wanting to see the project die to say i told you so, or watching it succeed to say i told you so.

So you think a do it yourself engine swap will be more reliable than 9psi on a properly set up greddy kit? I ran for over 30k miles before I tore mine out to put in a different kit. plenty of people putting lots of miles without issue with greddy and AP

kickerfox

M54 $2000-2500 6VE1W $500-750 with ECU and harness.

Can we stop looking at OEM power curves? I can get a set of reground cams, make my intake, and put the power wherever I want it. My experience driving the RX-8 is that the powerband is between 4k-9k. That's a 5000rpm spread. The Isuzu will make torque at 2000rpm and rev to 6500rpm (factory redline. easily higher) which is a 4500rpm spread. It's not THAT big of a difference. Time and time again I hear people talking up the Rotary's 9k redline but they seem to forget it's useless at low rpm. It's not as impressive as an M54 reving to 9000rpm. Now THAT would be a nice wide powerband if torque can be maintained.

Lets look at engines. What makes one engine better then another? Brand? Cylinder arrangement? Displacement? OEM application? Answer: None of the above. What makes an engine good is a large number of design considerations. Displacement WITH volumetric efficiency being the most important in making power. Then there's ignition. Can engine-x make the most use of combustion? Is it resistant to detonation? Can the internals handle the power levels desired? Can the internals handle the RPM desired? This isn't theoretical science we're dealing with. It's thermodynamics and we strive to make it as efficient as possible. Increasing CR, porting, large valves, intakes, and headers are all to make the engine breathe easier. If that isn't helping we put it on life support and force air into it through supercharging. Supercharging simply increases the VE of the engine.

The design features of the Isuzu engine (among other v6s) indicate it has alot of potential but as I've stated numerous times, it's only an option at this time. I haven't purchased one yet. You can bash the Isuzu and that's fine. I'd love to hear the "why nots" but I'd also like to hear the "whys" for alternative choices. I can clearly see many are for the "i6" and against "Isuzu" but what are some reasons to be against a "v6"?

Told me what? If the project makes me happy, what's to prove? I don't have any race or performance goals. My only goals are do it cheap, make it reliable, improve the gas mileage, improve the low end torque, improve the low speed drivability, reduce the high speed cruise RPM, lower the service and maintenance costs, and keep physical modifications to the car to a minimum.

bse50

All science in the world leads to the BMW engine. From VE to availability of parts to increase its efficiency.
A GT level M3 E46 engine tune-up costs around 30.000€ for 550hp NA. 20k in parts and 10k in labor.

Parts availability plays a bigger role than the engine's sheer potential unless you can afford to have Wossner or other piston manufcaturers build your own pistons (that's expensive, trust me).
The renesis' "sporty" power band is of around 3k rpm with normal gearing but the car can easily be driven from 2k to redline.
If torque and power is all that matters put a VW\AUDI I4 diesel in it. Easy 300hp, tons of tq but the car will still be slower overall.

Also... the initial cost of the engine is a non-factor if you're going to rebuild it. A proper rebuild is going to cost anywhere between 5\6k if you have to replace the pistons, rods, have the heads machined etc. Probably more for the Isuzu given the smaller aftermarket parts availability.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Is there a reason that you want a dohc engine? No pushrods?

kickerfox

"All science in the world leads to the BMW engine." Is this a rough guess?

Where in the world are you buying parts? A complete rebuild kit is $500 including gaskets and oil pump. I could buy a rebuilt longblock for $1500. The $1500-2000 I saved on the used engine cost (M54 vs. 6VE1W or 1MZ-FE) would easily buy a set of custom rods and pistons for a v6. Most likely a $300 set of 1UZ-FE rods could be modified to fit.

Initial engine cost is still important. Cost is cost. Anywhere you can save leaves you more to spend on other things.

Any other v6 options you guy can think of?

If your thinking GM v6s, I had considered the 2.8L buick at one point and going nuts with the build. $$$ Then I woke up. Yes the pushrod engines of yesteryear just don't do it for me anymore. I had an '80 Monza coupe with a built 400ci back in the day. Ironically, when I bought my Miata I had intended to do a sick 4.3L build in it. I had the engine already. Once I drove the Miata home I decided against it and boosted the 1.8L instead. I never regretted that choice.

Slidin8

RB25DET

Thank me later............................................. ....................

Am I SRS?