soundawake

There's only one way to sort this out, and that's for an independent person to put their RX8 on a dyno and do a test, OEM vs BHR.

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

Hey Brettus, do you think the timing light method works as well as the little tester gizmo?
I did have one issue with my BHR kit when one of the wires got pinched between the harness connector and the engine lifting bracket.
It shorted out and kept blowing the engine fuse.
I removed the bracket just to eliminate the possibility of it happening again.

slash128

A single car wouldn't be a good sample size. Many people have reported success, which I don't dispute. On the other hand it's quite clear that there are those for whom there was not success.

Besides, I already had my own car on the dyno with OEM coils. I never dyno'ed with the BHRs because i couldn't get rid of misfires. You suggest an "independent person". You may not trust or believe me but I'll say I really wanted those BHR coils to workout for me. I spent a lot of time swapping back and forth, street testing, sanding, grounding, tuning, etc. I'm not on a mission to put them down. I've been saying it and I'll keep saying it: Charles was great to work with and I'm not knocking him or the product. But people experience issues, including myself, so I'm sharing my data in hopes that the root cause can be determined and corrected. Perhaps it is some common mistake that myself and others are all making. Great, let's figure it out!

But... If it is already accepted that misfire issues can be traced back to bad coils then not sure how a Dyno comparison would explain the number of bad coils being seen....?

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I'm not having any issues with them on my REW. It is perfectly happy igniting 18psi and 500+ HP with a lot of Water/Methanol.

But......I have a standalone ECU and can run the dwell where It needs to be

That said there is large wires, new connectors, and direct feed for the power....

I still think it is more a wiring problem than a coil problem....

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

When one considers I have sold 6,000+ ignition systems since 10/2008 (as in 24,000+ coils currently in use) and a Tier One supplier 1% failure rate, as frustrating or problematic as it might seem to outside observers, 960 owners claiming "coil issues" with the BHR system is not out of statistical normalcy and I always take care of those with issues far better than they expect.

One thing I learned when we were developing the BHR system was that aftermarket ignition coils, CDI boxes, etc., from the most famous names out there are expected to fail on a fairly regular basis (have you ever seen the dashboard of a NASCAR car?) and they are all changed out every race. This is in addition to the tuners and shop owners we surveyed and with whom we discussed matters who shared stories of disappointment regarding aforementioned "performance" ignition products.

To think that there is some magical ignition coil that will be the "end-all" part which will render the point moot means one has not done their homework and this entire concept involves far more than what all of you tangibly see before you. When TeamRX8 first made the forum aware of the Mercury coil I looked into it with serious consideration and decided, for many reasons, that upheaving my entire product was not worth the transition as the electrical differences were nil.

SakeBomb and WIRD can make all the claims they like, and they are entitled to their opinions, "facts", and so forth, and I truly respect the guys at SakeBomb for at least putting their money where their mouths are. As I already stated, if I am proven wrong about all this and my ignition system is actually rendered a "dinosaur".... so be it.... and I shall stand defeated in that arena. Hooray for progress. :-)

On the other hand, there are a few things I will be curious to see how they play out. If this industry were driven by simply slapping stuff in peoples' hands, everybody would be making easy cash and nobody would complain.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

1) Brett may not, but I do.
2) Which was cautioned in the installation instructions.
3) Which was suggested in the installation instructions.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Before I walked away from a VERY good, secure, job at Ford Motor Co., we did such a series of tests. These tests were also replicated some time after the BHR Ignition System was released (with 30 people in attendance). Had not the benefits been clear and repeated, I would not have invested my entire life into developing said product and broadening it to an entire line of products.

People can think I merely slapped stuff together to make some money from a bunch of RX-8 enthusiasts but those who know me and my story know the truth is not so scandalous. In fact, I never expected to do anything than provide some decent parts on a part-time basis, whether BHR parts or other parts. Out of necessity and demand, I had to make BHR my full-time occupation.

Another truism from the automotive world; although every RX-8 was built on the exact same assembly line, using the same parts (most even being time-tested "parts bin" numbers) not every RX-8 responds in the exact same fashion regardless of the product being discussed.

Again, anyone who wishes to enter this industry (regardless of the platform being serviced) needs to understand the fundamental basis of this industry before any success is to be attained. The parts-side of it is the easy thing. The people side and real-world application side are quite other things, altogether.

Have a great Sunday, everyone, and I will see you around the forum. :-)

slash128

Charles, I have and will continue to testify that my experience with your service was top notch. I make no claims as to knowing the industry or your business better than you. I don't have any hopes that your product become a dinosaur. While the purported failure rate may be low in the grand scheme there was still a failure rate that caused grief for some of us. My only hope/intent was to get to the bottom of it.

Perhaps Dan is right, that it is a wiring or ECU issue. I'd just really like to know the answer. EDIT: to make sure my details are not lost I tried the various suggested dwell settings with no success. I also tried larger wires and Chatles rebuilt the harness. If it truly turned out that the stock wiring is the root cause then perhaps a revamp of the kit would be in order to include the required wiring upgrades. Or at minimum a notice to the purchaser that the stock wiring is insufficient vs being marketed as plug and play.

But technically I have no dog in this fight, as I sold my set. If a root cause was definitively determined then I would be interested in trying them again. I've shared my data and stated my intent for the good of the group. I suppose this is where I will leave it at this point.

All the best....

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

My guess is that it was a tuning issue. Were you using those cheapy plugs at the time?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

My guess is that the tester is a better test than a timing light because of the large load it places on the coil.

Here is the thing ................. If EVERY rx8 owner whether NA or FI , OEM or BHR coils, bought that $15 device and regularly tested their coils with it :

*The $ savings in thrown out GOOD coils would measure in the hundreds of thousands.
*the reduction in aggravation would be measured in gallons of unshed tears.

slash128

Nope, was running BUR9EQP leading and stock trailing at the time. I tried gapping the trailing plugs from .035 down to .025.

I only experimented with the autolite plugs recently. I am actually running BUR9EQP all around now.

If it was a tuning issue then why would the OEM coils work perfectly fine? I did back to back testing with the only change being the dwell table. I tried the stock table. I tried Oltmann's recommendations. I tried Team's recommendations. I tried Charle's recommendations. Anytime I got in the realm of 15psi I had misfires consistently with the BHR set. With the OEM coils on the stock dwell table I never had misfires all the way up to 17psi. Never went higher than that so I don't know beyond that. I still to this day have no misfires on the same set of OEM coils.

slash128

Wish I had thought to try the tester at the time. Based on all things shared and considered I'm leaning towards bad coils as well, though the number of bad coils reported is concerning. I don't have mine to test with anymore so I suppose it's not worth going round and round with my scenario. If everyone having problems at this point can use the tester and positively determine that the misfires are in fact due to faulty coils then that is a step in the right direction.

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

Well, I guess I didn't read them thoroughly.
I'm sure I would have taken it off beforehand if I had.

thewird

Tuned another turbo RX-8 this morning to 17 psi on AEM coils with Adaptronic ECU. Not a hint of misfire even when it was running low 10.x afr in the early stages of tuning. R7420 spark plugs ungapped. You waste of timers keep talking about "it could have been the coils, it could have been the wiring".

thewird

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Did you dyno it ?
Any more details on the setup ?

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

LOL...


With good wiring...and an ECU that you can control the dwell

yomomspimp06

all these boosted rx-8's being tuned with no evidence... share information on these setups in order for the community knowledge to grow on what works and what doesn't. It seems everyone always comes here to bitch. Rarely do people come here to share positive experiences and help the platform grow.

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

Minimal dwell control on the adaptronic

slash128

I don't believe this was inclusive of me in the "everyone" statement but I want to say I for one did not come to bitch. I shared my data and asked questions for the good of the group and always maintained respect. I hope nothing in my posts came across as bitching.

RotaryMachineRx

iTrader: (1)

Wait.... so OP is complaining that the BHR coils, known to respond well under properly managed dwell settings, is using an ECU that does not control dwell very well?

Slash do you use Adaptronic as well?

yomomspimp06

I would never include you in that statement slash...you're a big help to the community and none of your post have come off as "bitching". If someone has all of this tuning knowledge, why not share some with the community. That's what it is all about. We've come so far since the days of greddy ems and mazmart turbo setups. Let's continue to develop the platform, not just by complaining about a bad product, but by sharing information and ideas.

While I haven't had any issues that weren't solved by charles and BHR I would like to try the sake bomb kit because of the great results I've heard of with the rx7 crowd.

slash128

No, AP and ATR. Tried several dwell table suggestions.

slash128

I appreciate that and didn't think it was including me. Just wanted to make sure my sharing wasn't misconstrued

thewird

Nothing fancy, Mazdamaniac upgraded turbo kit with a streetported engine built by another shop. 294 rwhp @ ~6,400 RPM with boost dropping (17 PSi @ 4k RPM dropping to 4-5 psi by redline). I had to disable the VDI cause it would make the boost loss even worse robbing some power. Car was initially tuned at another shop but they couldn't get rid of the misfires. Customer called me and explained situation and I told them to ditch the BHR coils and bring it to me. AEM coils installed, colder R7420 plugs, retuned for more boost, and problem solved. Customer is going to get a Turblown top-mount GT35R kit next year and wants to push the car with water/meth so that will be fun. He picked it up this evening cause he didn't want to spend any money trying to fix the boost drop-off since he's going with a different setup all together next year.

Not that it matters cause a single dwell value is enough if your coils aren't **** but update the Adaptronic to the latest firmware and you can control it by RPM and voltage.

No sir... this is like the 20th turbo RX-8 I tune... There is nothing wrong with Adaptronic dwell control, nor does that matter as the BHR coils can't be helped with dwell in high boost turbo situations, however they DO NEED dwell to be any good in the first place.

thewird