J-MON

Fellow RX8 owners & Club members:

Let me start at the beginning.

• I took my 2004 Titanium RX-8 in for regular oil, lube, filter to Mazda Select in Hamilton, ON on 2012-06-25 with 56,500km on the OD. Everything went fine.

• Approximately 1 week later I began noticing a power lag from launch. I'm going to expand on everything I noticed but the short version is the 8 was 'bogging' down in first gear up until 3500RPM - the power loss got so bad I was compensating by using extra clutch just to smooth it out. So I called the dealer on 2012-07-03 and made an appointment to bring it back on 2012-07-09. In preparation of this visit I sent him the following email which I'm going to copy here >>

I began noticing a problem around Friday, June.29th – subtle at first but got worse over the weekend and I called Jim at Mazda Select on Wednesday fearing the problem was not correcting itself. Here are the symptoms I’ve noticed lately:

• Odd startup / initial engine turnover – When I put in my key and turn it - the engine kicks over in a different way than the way it normally has for the 3 ˝ years I’ve owned this car. Sounds “uneven” for lack of a better descriptor.

• Low power – car seems to be down 20 to 30% in HP and this is extremely evident from a standing start. From 0 RPM up until 3500RPM the RX-8 has always had a bit of natural lag in this area before the rotary gets into her powerband but now there is a stuttering in the power band around the 1000RPM to 3000RPM range and I have to modify my usage of the clutch to compensate (more clutch with more accel to attempt to balance it out).

• Engine note – I routinely drive with my windows down because I love the sound of the engine note. I’ve noticed that the engine note seems to be one or two octaves lower than normal. Almost seems like she has caught a cold and has a gruffness / roughness to her voice.

• Low idle – Car seems to idle just a little bit lower than regular. I can hear it and feel it dip down to like 600 or 700rpm and it almost approaches what I would assume to be a stall and then it perks back up for 20 seconds then dips down and goes back and forth. (somewhat related to next point)

• Exhaust sound – I had my car left on (in neutral, parking brake on) and was walking up from behind it last Wednesday and noticed the low revs (when it dips down below the 800, 700 RPM mark) at idle it is intermittently making a kind of low bass sound, like a hiccup for lack of a better explanation every 20-30 seconds.

The last thing I think worth mentioning is that on Tuesday, July.3rd on my way home from work I downshifted and accelerated in order to take the Revs up to the 8500RPM mark (thereabouts but not high enough for the engine RPM cutoff or even the beep to alert it’s at cutoff range). I did this in order to potentially de-carbonize the engine if that is what was causing my problems. However, as soon as the engine reached the 8500 RPM mark (maybe slightly higher) the engine light flashed on and upon noticing that I instantly up-shifted and reduced my acceleration in order to reduce RPM. The engine light flashed perhaps 5 times then went out and hasn’t returned since.

----------------------------------------- end of letter ------------------------------------------

So I took it in on 2012-07-09 and the service mgr let me know that my extended engine warranty expires in 6 days on Saturday, July.14th ! WOW ! Talk about timing eh ? So I left and began the unenviable process of sitting by the phone waiting for the service manager to call me with an update. When I dropped it off he did say that all the diagnostics they were going to do on the car may take until the following day and I agreed. Later on Monday I called to check in on the status of the tests and the Service Manager said they'd definitely need my car for at least another day and that they've opened up a service ticket with Mazda corporate.

Next day I get a call from Service Mgr quoting me $1500 + in repairs the 8 potentially needs. They've detected that I have a misfire in my #2 coil

• Firstly, new spark plugs and wires for $512.49
• secondly, new starter motor for $393.52
• lastly, new ignition coil at $504.46
• oh and don't forget the engine diagnostic fee of $120

Service Manager goes on to tell me that I need practically all of this gear just to complete the diagnostics properly. I ask him what can we leave out in order to get the diagnostics completed. He lets me know that my spark plugs are really bad, they are the original ones and must be replaced. And there is a portion of the diagnostics they just couldn't complete with my current starter motor as it's not operating properly and is fouling the tests. So basically I passed on replacing the ignition coil at this time.


The following day the service mgr calls to let me know the compression unit they were using in house has failed and they have to borrow another one from another Mazda location so.....one more day.


Service Mgr calls on Thursday to say that Mazda corporate has come back with the recommendation that I also replace my ignition coil as my current one has been damaged due to use of 'worn spark plugs' (**more on this later). So I authorize that final repair item and once again go into waiting mode.


Friday, July.13th (day before my ext. engine warranty expires) the Service Mgr calls to say the car is done all tests and diagnostics and everything is in the green. The misfire is no longer happening and they've driven the car and it starts fine and launches with full power. So end of case....but not really....because when the service mgr called it was pretty late in the day and he didn't expect Mazda corporate would get back to him before 5pm, however, he didnt want to leave my without a car for any longer so he said come down and get your car and we'll leave the 'service ticket' open with Mazda corporate and they'll most likely close it on Monday - he cited a 95% chance this would happen and reserved the other 5% for if Mazda had something else in mind like more tests or <gulp> an engine replacement. But because the car was running great and he repeated that all tests are showing everything in the green and on spec he really didn't think Mazda corporate would do anything further.


So Saturday I pick up the car and one of the service reps hands me the paperwork. It's only 2 pages but then i spot "their" copy and it's like 50 pages and looks like a book. I start leafing through it and it's filled with all sorts of charts and diagrams and print-outs. Service rep informs me that all that information related to all the back and forth that Mazda Select engaged with Mazda corporate regarding the testing of my 8. I requested a copy be mailed to me (I'll scan these reports if anyone wants me to and attach them to this thread). The first line of my copy of the service report states: "SPARK PLUGS WORN, MOST LIKELY CAUSE OF #2 CYLINDER MISFIRE CONDITION." I asked the service rep if she could pull my file and tell me if they've EVER asked me to replace my spark plugs. She looked and said No - and then asked if I had a copy of the Mazda service schedule (for all cars) and then handed me a brochure which lists it all.



Lo' and behold - right at the 56,000km mark it clearly states:

• Replace Air cleaner filter
• Replace spark plugs

However, when i was in at the 56,500 mark on my OD no one at the dealership mentioned anything about my plugs. If they had of and said I should replace them I would have agreed. I have to ask myself if this had have happened what would the state of my car be currently ? (** I'll come back to this later.)


So I pay out my bill, get my keys, confirm the 'service ticket' is still open with Mazda corporate and service rep tells me it is and we'll call you on Monday to let you know it's closed and then mail you a final copy of the service bill and reports i requested. I climb into my car - wearily start it up - it starts up great - pull away - and it feels like it's back to normal.



Monday, July.16th, 2012 (yesterday) and Service Mgr calls me to follow-up about my car and how it's driving. I say great and thank him for all his hard work. However, i do mention at this point that I think it was an oversight they didnt mention anything about my spark plugs at my last service appt. and that is one of the reasons I bring my car there is so that they can keep me informed of the things i need to do to my car to keep it running it properly. I fully expect the service mgr is going to go full defensive on me and instead he surprised me by stating: "Yes - you should have been informed about your spark plugs." I say that I'm going to take this issue up with the Head of the service department who is on holidays until later this week. Service Mgr says he'll give the boss a heads up that I'll be talking to him about this. I'll let you guys know that I'm going to seek 40% of my bill back to me (perhaps in the form of dealer credit) since they already took 10% off my total bill. I feel strongly that they are culpable for at least 1/2 of the problem that Mazda corporate has outlined with the statement: "SPARK PLUGS WORN, MOST LIKELY CAUSE OF #2 CYLINDER MISFIRE CONDITION."


At this point EVERYBODY thought it was case closed........


At approximately 4:20pm yesterday I get a call from Service Mgr and he says "Hey Jason. Guess what ?" ...... my reply "Mazda corporate wants to give me a new engine ?" Service Manager responds: "Yep ! I can hardly believe it myself but that's what they've come back with. Apparently they don't like the way your vacuum pump seals performed during the diagnostics even though they are within tolerances. So I've gone ahead and ordered the engine but it won't be here for two weeks. Then I'll need you car for a full week for the engine replacement itself."


I know this was a long post but I thought it important to be thorough as this is a pretty big deal.


What I am recommending to all RX-8 owners (spead the word) are two things:


1. If your car is still within the extended engine warranty deadline I recommend you make an appointment and pay the $120 engine diagnostic fee so they can fully check out the status of your engine.



2. CHANGE YOUR SPARK PLUGS - before the 56,000km deadline outlined in the service schedule pamphlet.


I will keep everyone apprised on the status of my engine replacement and the status of my 40% bill refund. So stay tuned !

Heeroguy

you should replace your spark plugs 25-30k miles, thats is what is in my book i believe that 56 is probaly for normal cars

RadRedR3

You said miles. Note that OP was quoting kilometers. There's your difference.

Heeroguy

opps my bad sorry

Mazda_RX804

I belive I have all of the stuff you listed in blue, except for points 1 and 2. I had the misfiring issues, and the flashing CEL, and on the 3rd time stays solid. I had a compression test done, and it passed. They found out my car had a california spec ECU, in a Canadian Car. And was causing the system to go wack. Its been t years since, and the car is running solid, just have an issue when I go on ling drives, the coolant light comes on for 5 seconds, then shuts off. I think there is something wrong with the sensor in the tank, cause the tank is full.

djfa

iTrader: (3)

Just got my car in to the garage today. I left it in the morning and the service manager called at the end of the day telling me a new engine is needed. Luckily I have an extended warranty. It was pretty simple to be honest, no questions, all over the phone. I came in for a check engine light and demanded a compression test. Turns out ill get a new engine.

My symptoms were about the same. Loss of power when hot, hard warm starts. No power under load.

For now they gave me a mazda 2, however that car is such garbage I will ask for something better. Im not going to downgrade from an rx8 to a mazda 2 for a few weeks!

J-MON

Hey djfa !

What dealership gave you a Mazda 2 as a loaner ?

Mazda Select in Hamilton told me clearly (twice) that they do NOT supply customers with loaner cars unless it's covered under a bumper to bumper warranty. My 2004 Mazda RX-8's engine is being replaced under the 8 year extended engine warranty program.

2hit6

Good for you...my warranty just expired last week and when I did a compression test (thanks to WCS on this forum)...my numbers were average...in the 7.5 range. So I decide not to spend the extra $$$ to bring the car into Scarbo Mazda for 'hopes' to get a new engine...

djfa

iTrader: (3)

I went to ALBI mazda. Its the biggest mazda dealer in north america. They sell more mazdas than anybody else in one year. Their garage is immense, a size that I have never seen before. Probably over 100 lifts.

Anyways, when I told them my engine had misfires, flashing cel, loss of power and warm start issues. I demanded a compression test. So the guy just said ok Im gonna give you a car now and bring it back at the end of the day when we figure out whats wrong with the car. So when he called me back he told me to keep the car until they get the approval for the new engine.

He also said I will get a rental once I get approval for a new engine. I will however demand for a nicer car than this crappy mazda 2. I dont know who would buy this junk car. Its like a box on 4 wheels with barely any suspension. Although its amazing on gas!

The service at this dealership is beyond excellent. They really take care of you. I have an assigned rep, there is a restaurant inside, hair dresser, wi-fi!

Thats the main reason I bought 3 cars from them. I usually hate dealers but this one goes above and beyond for their customers. Im sure I will have to argue with them at some point for something but for now it is superb!

Ray Al

I did exactly that... paid for a compression test 2 weeks prior to the end of the 8years/160k warranty... Then i phoned Mazda Canada to make sure the results were according to their specifications.
Now i too have a brand new engine installed early june in "Té D'Lŕ!" , my 2004 BrilliantBlack GT!
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djfa

iTrader: (3)

Im kinda worried though because I dont want a remanufactured engine in my car... The life span of a reman is about 50000km according to what I read in the forums.

Are we allowed to demand a brand new series II engine? If not this means I will be driving the car for another year and I will sell it to someone else who will be stuck with a car that might need an engine replacement in the future.

I love the rx8 and I dont want to drive another car. Its the hottest car on the road and its very rare.

Ray Al

I drove my 8 with the Mazda oil filter & 5w20 oil to break it up for 2500km...
Now i've switched to Yukon coils (BHR Style), Wix oil filter & Brad Penn 10w30 racing mineral oil..
Idle is sooooooo smooth U would not believe it!.. so different from the Mazda 5w20 oil & Mazda filter!

I know that i'll take good care of the (series 1) new motor, i'll garage the car for the next 5 winters and enjoy the 8 for the next 5 summers.. at least!..
Then the 15K$ i paid for it are worth every penny now!

ps: i also premix each tank fill up with 150ml Klotz 2cycle oil to make sure each rotors gets the lubrication it needs...

oamusa

Congrats on the new engine.

I had my 2004 Mazda Rx8 compression tested last week. It has 95,000 km on it and the 8 Year engine replacement warranty expied last week. These were the results:

Compression 1:
Spec
Standard 830 KPD
Minimum 680 KPD

Reading @ 276 RPM
I-8.2
II-8.5
III-8.4

Compression 2:
Spec
Standard 830 KPD
Minimum 680 KPD

Reading @ 276 RPM
I-8.5
II-8.3
III-8.5

They said those results were excellent. My engine runs good so hopefully it continues to do so.

I just picked up NGK Laser Iridium spark plugs. What do you guys think about those??

djfa

iTrader: (3)

Those results are great! Your engine is probably gonna last you a long time! Lucky you, I wish my original wouldve lasted longer. Im not too fond of having a reman in there. I really think when you get an rx8, its a purely based on luck to have a good engine.

Anyways, the NGK plugs you picked up are just fine. They are actually the same as the stock ones. NGK makes them for mazda, so no difference there.

oamusa

Ya im lucky lol but no more warranty. Hopefully it does last. I have a buddy with an 04 whose engine blew at 56,000KM, got a new one under warranty. It is based on luck.

Cool, thanks. I bought the car with 60,000km. Car runs and starts good but not sure if the plugs have been changed. Figured id change them to be safe.

Rotary-RX8

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to bump this thread...

I had scott (wcs) do a compression test on my car a few months ago. And it turns out i have low compression on my front rotor. Now after having a few symptoms of the low comrpession (rough idle, power lag , hard starts, etc etc) recently, I have gone ahead and called avante mazda to inquire about getting a new engine. I talked to the service manager Ted and everything went well... i asked him alot of questions and he gladly answered all of them. From the looks of it he will fight and do what he can to get me my new engine. My 96, 000km service is coming up in a couple of weeks and i will make an appointment for that. I willl probably tell them to forget about the service and go ahead and diagnose my engine instead .... then if mazda honors it ... forget about the 96,000 km service and start fresh.


Ted said you pay 200 something dolllars to get the car diagnosed which they dont reumburse back. if it fails .. they do a decarb and do a second test. If its better then theyre done. Now my problem is... why would i settle for a simple decarb .... i want a new engine. I dont want to band aid the problem. I want the problem fixed, cause no matter how good the decarb is it sooner or later the compression will drop even more.


A few things i asked Ted as well:

- only have maintenance records for last 30,000 km of ownership He said it SHOULD be fine

- said i have an intake exhaust and car is lowered he said hes not supposed to work on modified lowered cars but Footman is lowered and he got a new engine... wtf

- only front rotor is failing will they still honor it he said ya they will still honor the warranty even if one is failing

- i asked him about what other costs i need to pay for besides diagnosis which doesnt get refunded whether or not the car fails or passes he said coils plugs fluids etcc etc... and SOMETIMEs intake manifolds which can cost 2000 bucks but rarely happens (scared me there)

- he said my warranty is up if i understood him correctly which is 5 years i thought the warranty is 8 years.... pretty confused about that part


MY QUESTION IS HOW MUCH AM I EXPECTING TO PAY at MOST ?? WHETHER OR NOT THE CAR PASSES OR FAILS THE COMPRESSION TEST .... MY ISSUE IS DUMPING THE MONEY INTO THIS FOR THE DIAGNOSIS AND NOT GETTING A NEW ENGINE OUT OF IT (WHICH I SHOULD BE GETTING ACCORDING TO THE RESULTS OF SCOTT'S COMPRESSIONG TEST) AND ONLY A STUPID DECARB....

*spoke to Footman about this and he estimated $500*


Any help to get me a new engine is greatly appreciated guys thanks

djfa

iTrader: (3)

Here's my 2 cents:

I had the same problem you had : loss of power, bad idle, sometimes stalling on hot days, longer cranks on hot starts. I change my coils plugs wires for 300$ once a year and still had the same issues for 2 years. I knew then my engine was dying I was getting misfires. I told myself ill take the engine for a ride and then bring it to the dealer, I know my warranty is up in october. So 3 years pasr since my last visit to the stealership. I brought the car in and knew exactly what was going to happen. I demanded a compression test. They tested all my coils, plugs were fine too. Rotor 1 was finished. I had already prepared all my servicing papers.

So the guy called me back and said i need a new engine and he needs proof of servicing. *They are pretty strick on oil changes. I had to argue with them for a week cause they didnt like my walmart bills. So anyways the engine was approved, it comes with new water pump, flywheel and in my case a new oil pan too for some reason. They have to put back all the fluids in your car as well. However, they will not change your spark plugs, coils and wires. You can get genuine mazda oem set on ebay for 300$

They did sell me a new rear sensor which went bad due to the engine and a new battery as well.

*** If your car fails the test, depending on how low it failed a seafoam could help bring it back up to minimal condition. Mine was really bad and in no way slavageable. BUT if your car does fail, only the compression test should be covered. The rest of the diagnostics, seafoam is NOT. In my case, my dealer was cool and covered everything. And they gave me a replacement car as well.

Its a your dealer's discretion. Some are nice, others not so much. If you know your ignition system is fine, you have all your service papers and your car has the classic symptoms then you should have nothing to worry about. Are you getting freaquent misfires as well? (flashing cel) You could just do like me and DEMAND only a compression test.

If you dont show them that you know your car, they are gonna take you for a ride. All I paid was 340 for a sensor and new battery. The rest was all covered.

If your engine is borderline then take it back and beat the hell out of it and bring it back a week later.

I wish you good luck, I had a rough 3 weeks myself arguing with them, not knowing whats gonna happen. Its a 4000$ reman engine with 17.5 hours of labor. Its an expensive bill to pay alone.

J-MON

Just a quick update on the status of my engine swap:

- took it in on Monday, August.6th and they said they were going to start the swap early Tuesday

-They estimate I should have my 8 back for Saturday ...next Monday at the latest

-I specifically left a note with the service receptionist that I wanted the techs to check my clutch wear when they pulled my engine. Service Mgr called me yesterday to say what I thought he'd say - that my clutch has 50% of life in it still. Given the fact my 8 only has 57,000km and I only put about 7,000km a year on her I estimate the existing OEM clutch in the car will outlast the rest of the vehicle so I'm definitely not throwing them the $739 they want for a new clutch pack (everything except the flywheel). If I was going to replace it I'd probably source the parts myself and get an upgraded clutch for a lower price than Mazda OEM. Service Mgr told me i'd save $400 in labor if I did the swap now when my engine is already pulled.

- So currently I'm driving my wife's 2003 Ford Focus right now because unlike other lucky members in this thread - Mazda Select in Hamilton does not provide a loaner vehicle for extended warranty work. They said if they were doing the work under a full coverage, bumper to bumper warranty I'd get a loaner. However, driving her car makes me appreciate my RX-8 all the more. You can't have the sweet without the sour !


Now a quick word to member: Rotary-RX8

Best of luck to you man regarding the replacement. And I mean that - I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I was particularly **** about only ever having Mazda do my oil changes so they never asked for any paperwork from me at all. I had to pass on the urge to put in synthetic oil like i've read SOOOOoooo many times here at RX8club that guys have done with spectacular results...albeit I also recall guys getting warranty work refused outright because they weren't using the Mazda branded 5W-20 that our service manual calls for. I similarly had to eschew any notion of chipping the car, doing exhaust mods, etc. for the primary reason that I wanted my warranty 100% valid and intact.

djfa

iTrader: (3)

Let us know how the new engine feels!

I got mine back last monday and I must say its like night and day. I was completely oblivious to the lack of power I was having. I thought it was ocmpletely normal for this car to have such little power. The new engine is fantastic. More low end torque, no hesitation in first gear moving from a stop.

My new engine has 600km on it now, never went over 4k rpm yet. I plan on going up to 6k rpm at 1000kms and change the oil since they put that crappy 5w20 in there.

Car is like brand new, the reman engine comes with new flywheel and water pump. So you basically get new liquids. I bought new tires, new front brakes with drilled rotors, new shocks and I have ordered oem mazda coils plugs and wires which should arrive this week. I will change them, clean my k&n filter and MAF sensor. Ill see if I can reach the eccentric shaft sensor as well to clean it. The car will be like brand new.

I still cant believe how the new engine feels. Its so agressive, it just craves to be pushed to high rpm's.

My only complaint, my car was scratched/bumped and the dealer wont admit it. And I hear a squealing noise from the engine. Probably a pulley or something that wasnt greased before putting it back in?

I have read many theories on how to break in a reman engine. The racing beat procedure seems a bit overblown. The consensus seems to be to take it easy for the first 1500km. Which is what ill do. Then for the next 500km ill go a bit harder but not redline. After 2000km ill be done and drive her normal.

Enjoy the new engine, keep us updated and hopefully the love for your rx8 will be renewed!

cheers

Rotary-RX8

iTrader: (1)

^ how did you pay at the end of the day for diagnosis ... fluids etc etc ??

ALso do all new engines come with a new fly wheel ?

djfa

iTrader: (3)

It didnt cost me a dime for anything. All reman engines come with flywheel and water pump. Apparently a new oil pan too? cause mine was all eaten up by rust and now its a shiny black.

Diagnosis was free, compression test was free. The replacement fluids are part of the engine swap. The only thing I paid for was a new battery (even though I believe mine was still good after 4 years) and a new rear o2 sensor that went bad due to my midpipe and probably misfires as well.

My dealer was the best, as i said i even got a replacement car. The only thing missing to change now is my coils plugs wires which I ordered and will do myself.

Oh hey and guess what, my gas mileage increased big time! I used to make on average 380km until light comes on. My first tank got 420km!!!

Footman

iTrader: (2)

First tank got 420km because you can't go above 4000 rpm hahahahah

Rotary-RX8

iTrader: (1)

^ what dealership is this !!!!



I spoke to Ted from avante and he says you pay for diagnosis whether or not compression test fails or passes and you pay for spark plugs coils wires (even though i wont repace mine cause theyve just been replaced) and all fluids. WTF

J-MON

UPDATE:

• Monday, August.13th I go to pick up my 8 at Select Mazda - HOORAY !

• Service MGR makes odd point to tell me that his techs drove the car 3 times to ensure everything is working good with the new engine and he said it's all good - enjoy ! After thanking everyone their profusely and making a statement about how proud I am to own a Mazda and how they take care of their customers I roll out.

• I don't get more than 3 blocks away before I have to stop at a major intersection for a red light and the car died while I was clutched in. Didn't think much of it - one stutter after all this work isn't anything to be overly concerned about......right ? WRONG ! She stalled 12 times while i limped back to the dealer.

• Any time the Revs fell below 2,000 she'd just keep going down. If I could catch it with the clutch before that I could keep it going but man it was hell trying to get back in late afternoon traffic and through one of Hamilton's busiest intersections (Barton & Centennial) too.

<---- that was me after making it back to the dealership

• So a tech drove me home on Monday. I was very disheartened, frustrated, angry etc.

• Tuesday, August.14th I call the Service Mgr at 4pm and he informs me one of the environmental sensors on the car was reporting the engine was -70° Celsius so they ordered a new sensor and they're putting it in FIRST THING - on Tuesday. OK.....I'm somewhat relaxed by this news. I was worried they'd come back and say we gotta pull the engine and order a new one and that would be another few weeks before it came in.

• Wednesday - TODAY - Service MGR called me about 90 min ago (at 11:30am) to say that with the new sensor the car runs great on the highway (<---- SHOULD THEY EVEN BE RUNNING THE CAR AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS WITH THIS NEW REMAN ENGINE ??? MUST BE GOING WELL OVER 4,000RPM) but in the city and at low revs the idle is still 'hunting' . . . so I"m back in waiting mode......again

* Other point I can make is that the Service MGR didnt' say Boo about 'breaking the engine in' or keeping it at lower Rev's for first 1,000 or 2,000 km. Like I mentioned above - he simply threw me my key and said enjoy - that was all.

Footman

iTrader: (2)

Do a KAM reset and let your car idle for 15 minutes before driving. Then drive slowly varying the revs... let engine relearn fuel-trims and such.

Removable of the battery does not reset the KAM.. only the 20 brake stomp method does!