Revolver

In the interests of livening up the joint and tapping some of the knowledge and experience that's now been accrued locally, I thought I'd pose a question - supposing you wish to FI your car, what should you go with? Turbo or supercharge.

In the red corner we have turbo kits from tuner shops in Qld and Victoria, not to mention MA's turbo forays.

In the blue corner we have supercharge kits from tuners in NSW and now Queensland.

There are also a number of DIY projects either under construction or running for some time. Of course, there's also a range of import kits.

I'd prefer not to name names, etc because I don't want the debate to rain on the hard work people have put into getting a commercial venture off the ground, etc.

So, which is best? Or does it depend what results you want?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Seriously ?

If it's power or torque you are after it is a no contest . You must have seen this . The DNA SC is there and the Hymee is going to be close to the Pettit . None of the Aussie turbos are there but i'm sure they could make similar numbers to the greddy kit at the very least .
What other criteria did you want to talk about ?

matt13b

I'm no expert but I think there are pro's and con's of both. I would prefer a S/c on my car. BUT, these are more complicated and therefore often cost more. They don't however suffer from lag down low. Which is exactly where the RX8 needs power.
A turbo setup is more simple but does not have a parasitic effect on the engine to generate boost like a s/c. So in a way a turbo makes use of exhaust gasses that would have otherwise gone out the exhaust and could almost be called "efficient".
I prefer supercharging for a rotary personally.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I want to stay out of the way of this discussion, but could someone PLEASE put a stop to this sort of stupidity?
It is so tiresome to see the "debate" brought to the level of these over-simplified and simply incorrect assertions.
It's maddening.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

No. That would be:

"Superchargers are a waste of time and money on the Renesis. I'm just sayin'".

But I'm not, so I won't.

rotarenvy

geez you guys really know how to crap in a thread

each for has merits. finding the right system for you is the key.

price/performance/feel.

turbo's seem to have the performance, good price (seem to need extras and a lot of tweaking) installation is possible the hardest as you need to jack the car up. snail size is limited but something like the 3071 seems to me like it would do the job for all but the craziest people. I think they have a disconnected feeling from the throttle but never driven a rx-8 turbo, just from driving my girls 4cyl turbo.

positive displacement SC's seem the goods with boost down low, but the dyno's say otherwise. the linear power is very similar to a std car just with more power. cost seems high and installation can run from easy to complex but you shouldn't need to jack the car up.

centrifugal SC's are a compromise. good flow and efficiency at the expense of low rpm power. they get more manic as you get get higher in the rpm range, peak at max rpm and never drop off in power. if the performance compromise is offset by installation cost they are a good option IMO.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

SORRY!!

True.

lol

The rest of your assessment is pretty good!

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Revolver: since your'e in Australia, why not the Hymee SC?

Matt13b: look at the chart above, a properly sized turbo will have more torque down low then some Superchargers.

Since this is an Aussie Thread, I'll stay out of it. I was just sayin'...

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

^ but s/c's are more reliable than turbo's; I'm just sayin' (...as I run for cover and an aluminum foil helmet to stave off Jedi's mind tricks).

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Not really, depends on build quality. A turbo can last as long as a blower. Also, the renesis undergoes the same amount of stress, it's all power/boost related. The harder you make the engine work, the more stress it is under, simple as that.

The only difference at the same power levels between S/C and turbo is the feel.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Thanks but it was intended tongue-in-cheek as a typical retort in these endless s/c vs. turbo discussions.

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Then the best answer would be a 500shot of NOS!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

If you HAVE to bring in the reliability comment, it would probably be better to say that S/C's are more reliably installed and tuned than Turbos. Done right, reliability isn't a question between the two. Of course, the more you crank out of the motor, the more you are inherently reducing engine life, but that isn't "reliability" that people talk about.

It is more complicated to get a properly installed and tuned turbo, which means there is more opportunities to screw up if you half-*** or bend to impatience or try to cut corners to save dough. You can still screw up a S/C, and screwing up with either results in the same thing.

Also, traditional turbo lag isn't a consideration on a rotary, because it is fully spooled lower then where we cruise at. You shouldn't ever be driving in that pre-lag area of RPMs even NA, so don't do it FI and you won't have the traditional lag. I can't speak to throttle response, but the difference is probably so subjective to personal feel anyway....

Personally, I love N/A, and if it ever came to going FI, I would most likely go S/C because it stays closer to N/A driving dynamics than T/C. My opinion. I wouldn't dream of forcing it on someone.

Read up on it, decide on FACTS which you prefer more, and go with it.

Just sayin...

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Tubingchamp: I see your shot of Nos and raise you a 2JZ swap!






just sayin'....

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Right above your post is a chart which I spent some time making so that people could see exactly what is going on with a FI'd 8 .Please take a few minutes to study the chart .
In answer to your statement , have a look at the blue and yellow lines (the superchargers) at 3500rpm and compare with the green brown and pink lines (the turbos) . That should clear things up for you .

rotarenvy

you may be able to do it without jacking the car but it would be a bastard of job.
there is so many greddy threads recommending jacking the motor- lowering the motor just to squeeze it in. there just isn't much room. then check out some of the 3071 threads

Revolver

Mission accomplished

Revolver

Thanks. I hadn't seen that chart before, so I appreciate the post.

Remember, not all of us have the time and patience to trawl all the technical and O/S threads for this kind of stuff (haha, I can hear Gomez's retort to this already) and I thought it's been a while since the topic was discussed in here, so pardon me if it's old hat for you. It's just another avenue to distribute some accrued knowledge for the benefit of the Aussie members.

Getting back to the topic, and excuse me MM if I'm also stupid(!!), but it seems to me that max power and torque figures are only part of the story for those of us who live in the real world and want to spend time driving; not tuning, tweaking, fixing and playing in our fully equipped workshop.

If you turn up the boost enough, you're going to get some big numbers, etc. That's very impressive but what about long term reliability, driveability, throttle response, drivetrain strength, maintenance issues, etc? I suppose that's also why I posed the question in here rather than in a technical section, etc. I want to know what Aussie owners have done, what's worked, what hasn't, what they believe to be a worthwhile investment.

I also welcome the experience and learning our American cousins bring to the table. They've trod this road in much greater numbers and for longer, so feel free to weigh in but it's guys like Jarl, Brettus, Hymee, Mazfix customers, Andrew and the Vic FI contingent, DNA customers, etc that I'd most like to hear from. It's just more relevant to hear about what's available here.

Revolver

Why not indeed? Part of the reason for the question. We're getting more options available to us here and I'm curious to know what others think.

As stated above, feel free to share the wealth of your own knowledge and experience...we've never excluded anyone in here and I'm not about to start now.

retro

All too easy mate...........................
Alan

Revolver

This is another example of where I'm coming from. If the real issue is that both are fine (albeit a hassle) if done properly, I'm interested in how and where this is available for an Aussie owner.

Although interesting to some extent, it doesn't do me much good to hear how wonderful some stateside tuner is performing such work if it's not practically available to me.

So, please contribute what you can (and obviously that's a lot) but I'd be grateful if you'd keep it relevant to what we can do here...

mysql101

If you want faster acceleration due to more hp and torque, in all areas of the powerband, especially down low, you'll opt for a turbo.

If you want to subscribe to the notion that SC's = massive torque, especially in low rpms, you can make believe you're making an intelligent decision by buying a SC kit. But obviously even a little bit of research will show you that no dyno runs have ever surfaced to show anything close to that.

With that said, if you want to pay next to nothing for a turbo kit, buy random hardware, slap it on and don't get it tuned properly, or invest in proper gauges, you will end up with a blown engine and remarking how turbos suck, when in fact you are brain dead.

Repeat after me:

Turbos aren't more inherent to failure than a SC.

Turbos don't give a rats *** that they're in the exhaust stream and it's hot down there.

Turbos aren't any more likely to blowing your engine than a SC.

Bottom line: You get what you pay for.

Revolver

And just a further note.

This is not a pissing contest. I really don't see the point in people with more knowledge putting **** on those without it. I could just as easily do that in my work but it doesn't get me very far with potential clients, so I treat them like they've got a brain and respectfully advise them in terms they understand. Capiche?

Of course, if you don't have the patience to do that, go commune with the other gurus somewhere and leave us poor dumb schmucks to it.

mysql101

lol. If anything, you should consider yourself FORTUNATE that people aren't jumping down your throat for asking one of the lamest possible questions. We get a TC vs SC question every other day and they usually end with 2 posts.

You have obviously not done any research on the topic, and have obviously not searched the forum for the dozens of threads that have asked your question. So the natural conclusion is that you are too lazy and want others to do the foot work for you. No matter who answers, your answers will be incomplete. No one is going to write a 40 page essay for you on the topic.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

revolver: just fly the BHR crew out down under and all will be fixed.

Just sayin'

This is actually a great thread as I too am curious as to what options you guys have over there.