BVD

This is a spin off from a rather off-topic discussion that started on the warranty thread.

It has already been discussed pretty thoroughly over a year ago when the car was fairly new, and the concerns were first raised here. But it's a topic that does seem to interest RX8 owners - some of whom have already suffered damage to their aircon condensers. There is no protective grille on our cars, and the duct is very low to the ground, in an area where bouncing stones are quite common in Australia.

On the one hand we have those who feel that the chances are very low and not worth worrying about, and on the other side are those of us who disagree and who have already fitted grilles.

So it is worth considering or not?

Rotarenvy has never lost a rad in 15 years, so fair enough, he thinks it's an unlikely event, and that the odds are comparable to winning Lotto.

I have had it happen twice on other cars, plus all the other common sorts of stone damage (5 windscreens, uncountable number of paintwork chips, etc) so I believe that the odds are much lower, and not at all in the "winning lotto" range. But I imagine that we drive in different conditions and are not comparing apples to apples here.

TIME TO ASK AN EXPERT.

First I looked in the yellow pages for Perth. Not sure how many people own cars, out of our population of around a million but we shouldn't need too many people just to fix radiators - or so one might think.

Somewhat to my surprise, under the heading "Motor Radiator Services" there were a whopping SIX PAGES of businesses offering to repair and/or replace rads.

So I rang one at random. It's in Midland - an outer suburb of Perth, so it should get mostly local work, but with the probability of some 'country' jobs too.

I asked the guy two questions:

a) Could he either supply or recommend some mesh to protect my aircon condenser?

b) In his opinion was I being paranoid about stone damage to rads, and was it actually very rare.

Here's what he said:

a) No, they didn't sell mesh, but he gave me a quick list of place where people usually buy that sort of thing. He also said if you fitted mesh it was worth remembering to clean it as it tended to collect a fair bit of crap (particularly with the very fine mesh that some people use).

b) When I asked whether stone strikes to rads was actually just a million to one kind of thing his response was to laugh and tell me that it wasn't at all rare. His exact words were "It happens to everyone" - but then quickly added "but of course that doesn't mean that you've got a 100% chance that it will wreck the core".

It would have been rude to push him for repairs per week figures or ask him to make percentage guesses, but that was enough for me. Of course "everyone" was a figure of speech, and not meant literally, but I knew what he was getting at. I thanked him and hung up.

So here's my view:

1) If you live in the suburbs and your baby is mainly used on city roads (at city speeds) then your chances of losing a rad from stone strike is pretty low. It would be reasonable to balance the cost of a grille against the cost of a new condenser (about $800??) plus the labour and inconvenience, and feel that you were willing to take the risk, as the odds weren't all that high.

2) However, if (like me) you do most of your driving out on the "open road" where hitting a stone of some size, somewhere on your car, will happen on a very regular basis, then it's a different story.

As I mentioned before, at highway speeds a stone doesn't need to have any velocity of it's own towards the car - because I'll be approaching it at 30 metres a second. It will pass from the front of the duct opening to the condenser in 1/100th of a second or less.

(Geez Hymee - this commission selling is a lot harder than you said it would be!
JOKE JOKE :p I'm not trying to push Hymee's grille, although if you do a bit of country zoom zooming it could be worth putting on your Christmas list. Protective, stylish and fun to fit yourself.. )

BVD

Oh, and …

Please also add any other opinions you might have about stone damage.

For example:

Car bras – worthwhile or waste?

Proprietory paint protective finishes – good or not?

Headlight protectors – have you ever fitted them?

Windscreens – Do you insure against their loss, or trust to luck?

Touch up painting – DIY or pro jobs for you?

Etc.

takahashi

I was going with Hymee grill for a year, thinking please have a stone to it so I can have it upgrade to a sport radiator :o of course, it did n't happen. But I am happy with grill and insured. Hymee grill still have small area in the diamond plastic that Gomez has a stone going through I think he should place $1000 on the spinning wheel at Crown .

Car bras - worth interstate trips but don't ask a track lover like me. I get more stone trip from a single track day than a whole year worth.

Paint protection - for lazy people. I have a black car and polish 3 times a year.

Headlight protectors - fugly

Windscreens - until recently i did not know i can insure windscreen

touch up - DIY for stone clips.

Gomez

Good memory Taka . Yes BVD, I had a stone hit my condenser after it went through the small gap under my number plate. I campaigned Hymee for a extra grille piece at the time, I'm still waiting.....Hymee? :p .

Pics below....

Gomez

BTW, I have very few stone chips on my car.....I was very surprised to find this damage.

RXP33D

Speaking of damage, after a stream of spirited driving down Old Pac Hwy route that we

took for the RX8 Cruise, I noticed that I cracked the windscreen, small and only noticed

whilst washing the car. Is there any option beside REPLACING the screen?

Thanks in advance. Good write up BVD!

takahashi

I remembered coz it was me that threw the stone inside! :p

takahashi

Novus? My old car got its thin lightweight JDM windscreen cracked by a stone flicked off from a truck It was only 4 months old. I went to Novus on the weekend and paid $50 and it was good until the day I sold it.

timbo

Well, Hymee's grill was on mine as soon as he brought it to market, because of the number of hwy k's I was doing.

I have quite a few stone chips on my car ...not just stones, but from semi-trailer tyre shredding (I'm gonna start a campaign against these vehicles -- one of which I followed at over 140kph -- using recaps. They are so dangerous, especially in summer)

Car bra -- suppose I should -- but I think they look naff!

auzoom

If its cosmetic I am not so fussed, but the radiator and oil cooler, the potential cost to fix is scary.

Andrew

BVD

As Taka says, there is an option. Some windscreen shops can repair either chips and even some cracks depending on the position and severity.

This quote comes from the O'Brien site "What's more if it's a crack in your windscreen that's the problem we may be able to repair it for you – saving you the cost of a new windscreen – using our unique glass repair system. "

Not sure of the details, but obviously if it's smack in front of the driver's main area of vision it's less likely to be safely repairable. Here's a link to part of the O'Brien site, but poke around and you should find some more detailed information about what they do and how they do it:

Screen chips and cracks

Not long after I had my 8 I got a tiny stone chip on my windscreen. Knowing that chips can spread to cracks as a result of body flex I went straight down to Windscreens O'Brien and pointed to the tiny blemish on my baby. The guy laughed, and said I had nothing to worry about, the chip was too small. Looks like he was right too.

BVD

:D I remember that, Gomez - I'd just forgotten who it happened to.

I remember thinking at the time "bugger, I could have made my own grille go a little higher when I made it - is it worth taking it all off and making a new one" (with the left over mesh I had).

I also thought about drilling out a few more of the "solid" lozenges to improve the airflow while I was at it, and then meshing all the open ones.

In the end, after a meeting of the full design, engineering, development and risk mangement teams here at BVD (i.e. me) we went for the "sod it, it's good enough" decision. :D

Revolver

I've already mouthed off about the grill. As to the other stuff:

Car bras – I also think they look naff. Would be worth it if you did a lot of long distance stuff but I don't so I won't get one. Some guys have got that clear film 'contact' type stuff, which looks a whole lot better but I think I'd rather touch it up and then maybe get a respray if it looks too rough over time.

Proprietory paint protective finishes – a con in my view. Nothing regular care won't cover.

Headlight protectors – ugly. I've also been told that modern headlight surrounds are often stronger than the 'protectors'

Windscreens – Aren't they part of your full comp policy? Is this a specific inclusion BVD?

Touch up painting – As above. I was supplied touch up paint for free when I got it. You guys get that?

xxup

The bit about low risk of stone damage from city driving is a load of twaddle..

When we got our Hymee grille fitted by the Hymee himself there were already two areas of bent fins on the A/C condensor.. Hymee can verify this.. The car was one week old, had only done 100Km at the time and had never been on the highway..

xxup

Yes, but they won't pay for the genuine part and cost of the OZ equivalent fitted is less than the excess..

Nup

BVD

Screens:

Windscreen policy seems to depend on your insurer. It's a pretty cut-throat field, and they seem to be tightening up in various areas to stay competitive for price. As far as I can tell it's one of those things that it's worth reading the fine print on.

My wife's insurer (RAC) gives the windscreen cover automatically as part of her fully comp cover. We had hers replaced a couple of week ago and the insurer's designated repairer came all the way out here in a van and fixed it on the spot.

RAC wording:

If you have a maximum No Claim Bonus on your current policy schedule, you are entitled to make one windscreen or window glass claim in each 12 month policy period without loss of No Claim Bonus or payment of any excess

Presumably, if you don't have the full No Claims Bonus, then you do pay some sort of excess, or it has an effect on your "No Claims" status.

My insurer - SGIO - now doesn't do that, although they did up to about a year or so ago. If you make a claim with them now there is some sort of "basic excess payable on windscreen or window glass claims" even if you do have a full No Claims Bonus (as we both do). If you want that removed - i.e. the windscreen replaced at no up front cost, and no effect to your no claims bonus next year, then it cost $25 a year. So not quite "free" any more.

Touch up paint:

Last 3 new cars I've got them to include it in the deal, but it wasn't offered automatically. The cost is trivial ($10 or less for the little can thingy if I remember rightly, but it's just handy to have it on hand right from the start.

Cheers, Chris

Bat1

I agree with most of you guys on most of your points (can't agree with all on all points, that would be too boring )

Hymee grill - I don't do enough country k's to warrant the additional expense (sorry Hymee )

Car bras - fugly, naff.... they are offensively disgusting and should only be made to fit Fords and Holdens :D

Headlight protectors - without wanting to repeat myself Falcons and Commodores

Windscreens - My insurance covers this but if it didn't, I would replace if badly chipped or cracked. You have a great car, keep it looking that way. If it's okay for me to stray a bit (too bad I'm doing it anyway ), I hate to see any good looking car that is neglected. There is a brand new Beamer in our company car park with a ding on the boot (the tosser can get into parking places well but battles getting out :D ) and because it was his fault he is not going to his insurance company to fix it and doesn't want to pay for the repair himself. I suggested he trade it in for a Ford.

Touch up paint - I agree with Revolver, touch up yourself (on bad spots) and in a couple of years get a respray. The benefits of the respray are that you can change the shade slightly (cheaper) or do a completely different colour (but why would anyone change from Titanium?) :D

Gomez

You've grabbed the wrong end of the stick there Bat1. The country roads rarely throw up stones.....they rarely get resurfaced. It's the roads around town that are the danger. It was a city road somewhere here in Melbourne that did the damage to my condenser.

Gomez.

Revolver

Exactly!!! :D

Just to clarify - I'm not suggesting a complete respray - too expensive! I'm talking just the front panel and perhaps the bonnet if it needs it.

BVD

No need to touch myself up, I've been married for 25 years and........ oops! I see what you mean... sorry... :o

On the touch up theme I've seen people recommend nail varnish as a good substitute for touch up paint if you can't get the colour you're after.

The main problem, as far as I can see, is that not too many men are comfortable spending any great length of time poring over the colour chart at the nail varnish display.

Of course it may help allay suspicions if you're actually carrying a chunk of your car's panelwork at the time.

Anybody tried nail varnish? I'm not sure I'd resort to it on my 8, but there's a few cars I've owned that it might have been OK.

BVD

Interesting that your strike was in the city, Gomez. I guess that my city/country idea was partly a way to give an "out" to those slow moving surburban dwellers who believe it won't happen to them.

But, in the countryside where I live we are very plentifully supplied with stones - particularly on the non-kerbed ones - in the form of general gravel rather than just left over road metal. Most of the gravel lives along the edge of the road, but one way and another a fair bit of it seems to like to go sight-seeing across the bitumen. It's gravel that I clean out of my grille, rather than chunks of the grey stuff.

rotarenvy

well I got showered with stones again tonight from a truck in front at over 100km/h it was flinging the stones dam fast ! I probably have some more stone chips in the paint but my condenser survived yet again!

BVD
so did you ask the radiator place what else it fixes? my guess is 90-100% of it's business is from fixing radiators. great way to random sample for a statistic

BVD

What's the matter with you kid? More frickin' eye rolling.

I don't give a damn if you fit a grille to your car or not. You're only risking about $1200 or so (after labour and regassing) and a bit of incovenience - that's not all that big a deal. We're just trying to give people a bit of information here which might help make a choice. Usually that gets some interest, and a bit of respect.

All you're offering is guesses and snide remarks- still no genuine attempt at finding out what really happens. How about trying to gather some facts yourself mate, instead of just sniping at my opinions and doing the eye rolling stuff.

I know what radiator places fix - I've worked in the motor trade, and I've had my own radiators fixed for all manner of reasons over the years. In my experience, most failures are due to corrosion, vibration, etc. Sometimes, however, it is damage from flying objects, and sometimes it's a combination of both - i.e. a modest strike to an already weakened core. The precise ratios are not all that important – the issue for me is “do condensers get written off, is my RX8 vulnerable under the driving conditions that I face, and can I fix it cheaply and easily". The answer seemed to be yes in all cases.

Earlier today I was talking to a friend about some work we have to do on a car next week. He’s a man in his fifties who spent many years as service manager for the local Volvo dealer and who now runs his own mobile service van – which allows him to work the hours he wants, and pick the jobs he fancies.

So I asked him too.

He also laughed and said of course they get wrecked by stones. He mentioned how flimsy the average aluminium aircon condenser is these days. He mentioned that intercoolers also cop it – it’s whatever happens to be sitting at the front of the queue. In addition, he told me that, yes, all sorts of places sell a variety of meshes to combat the problem – which included strike by small birds. He told me that the wee wren like birds can (and do) easily puncture the core of a condenser, water radiator or intercooler. For the hard of thinking, that's not because the little devils peck holes, it's because people hit them at 110kph!

And (because he’s a bike enthusiast) he told me about suffering a badly bruised toe from a stone flicked up by a car coming the other way, and an incident that cost him a wing mirror, the entire assembly that operates the indicators, and nearly his life after hitting a parrot at speed. He also said that bikes with unprotected radiators suffer strike failures with monotonous regularity.

Sometimes it feels like I come here and offer 45 years of REAL motoring experience, and many years as a qualified engineer, and hear nothing but the gobbling of turkeys in return.

How about some occasional frickin’ respect kiddies!!!!

Bat1

Nice one BVD !

Revolver,
A complete respray would not apply to us TG owners, but it's an option all the other non-TG owners have.

Gomez,
I didn't get the wrong end of the stick, country roads generally do more paint work damage to my everyday car than I get when cruising in my 8. I believe you about your condenser, I hope that's your bad luck finished with. But if I'm cruising and any of the city, suburban, freeway roads are being worked on for whatever reason I take a detour and keep away from the $h!tty roads.

Revolver

Whack, whack, whack, whack!

Yeah, I think you got him BVD. Now save some ammo for the other fights! :D

Now we know why he started drinking red last night!! :p :D :D

ROFL