FIrst things first! I work for a Mazda dealer, and maybe I can help some people out.

Power is not lost if power was never there! Remember this.

Mazda missed the power assesment by 3.6% from 247hp to 238hp. By federal industry standards a manufacturer can miss power by up to 4% and be leagally accepted. So do not look down on Mazda for missing this, but instead look up on them for acknowledging this.

There are numerous companies that miss the cake on horsepower output, and keep there lips sealed on the situation. Mazda however is going public with it to let there enthusiasts know because that is what kind of company they are, and honest one with their customers in mind....NOT LIARS as some of you people put it! Leagally they did not need to do so!

Now we all bought our cars based on the perfomance of this vehicle. NOT THE HORSEPOWER. If the thing had 100hp, and did 0-60 in 5.9 secs then it still did 0-60 in 5.9secs. Remember this Ladies and gents! And no times or performance has changed. When the thing performed it's times and it's stopping distance and it's slalom times it did it with a 238 hp engine not a 247 hp engine. SO THE 247 WAS NEVER THERE, so in all essence nothing was or is lost!

NOW on a happy note which we all should be in right about now. WE(whomever took delivery before AUGUST 26th) will get a $500 debit card, AND (not or) free services for 4 years or 50,000 miles. DO the math ladies and gentlemen when it all boils down we all just got brand new RX-8's for cost with all the money we will be saving. SO BE HAPPY. Any other car company would of done nothing, and would have needed to do nothing. Mazda did because that is the company they are, was great and still are great!

So be proud about you purchase, I sure as heck am. I just look at it as a cherry on top, so should you.

PROUD silver RX-8 owner 1GT, 2AP, 6-speed

OH yeah that 238hp engine, is still the International Engine of the Year.

I think hp is missing because I was told my car had more.
I think you have balls to post this. Mazda came forward but don't act like the consumers didn't play a role in them coming out

Originally posted by RX-WillyStyle
FIrst things first! I work for a Mazda dealer, and maybe I can help some people out.



that's not necessarily a good thing to say. the last time i remember someone starting their post that way he/she was dead wrong. with a few exceptions(ibfubar2000, budaman and 1 or 2 others) Mazda dealership employees have been shown to be less than knowledgeable about many aspects of the RX-8 as well as downright untruthful about others. For instance read thispost by DoobyWho (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=106781#post106781) and then read thru the rest of the thread. You'll need to prove yourself that you have good reliable information.

Originally posted by RX-WillyStyle


SO THE 247 WAS NEVER THERE, so in all essence nothing was or is lost!


Now see that's what i'm talking about. You say the power was never there but MazdaUSA says it was and that it changed. So your saying you know better than everyone at MazdaUSA as well as the engineers in Japan who designed the engine in the first place. Not helping your credibility case here.

Now where is that poster some weeks ago who had a BS meter. Can whoever that was get a reading on this post, wow its getting deep on the old RX8 forum.:D

Thanks RX-Willy!

My opinion about Mazda is that it's a great car company - with some overeager marketing folks. It doesn't diminish the engineering feat that is the RX-8.

As to the power, I love the car. However, the people I leave at the stop lights don't particularly care for it...and they'd be impressed no matter how much power it had.

If you have had bad experiences with "untruthful" dealerships than I apologize for you. But it unforutunate that you classify a whole group of individuals with being "untruthful" because of it!

My source... I was on the nation-wide conference call with the Vice President of Mazda North American Operations that Mazda held declaring this "so called problem." So my facts are straight, but your opinions are your opinions...and are still just your opinions.

Originally posted by RX-WillyStyle
Power is not lost if power was never there! Remember this.

SO THE 247 WAS NEVER THERE, so in all essence nothing was or is lost!

tell that to the Japanese owners with 250ps...or the magazine that just reported the ECU was reprogrammed to adhere to strict emissions...

please get your facts straight before making false statements...now isn't BOOSTD 7 supposed to delete these worthless threads from people that don't know what they're talking about?

RX...........First of all, these cars we all purchased (or plan to) were not gifts. I dont know about you, but 28,300 is alot of money to me. Getting all that was promised is an important factor.

Some points you seemed to have left out from your rant;

Several different independant testors have all shown roughly the same results. Chassis dynometers have concluded as of yet the WHP is in the 165-180 range. Seeing that you "work" at the dealership you would understand that those figures are far below even the new revised flywheel HP figures. 238 HP is still vastly overstated.

The majority of forum members are getting MPG figures far below the stated EPA sticker. The reports are too widespread and consistant to pass off as individual driving habits. This is of concern for obvious reasons.

Also (since you mentioned it), how do you know what emissions equipment the pre-pro vehicles had? Seems to me since Mazda suddenly revised the numbers for HP, that it related to a recent change to the RENESIS engine. Not a year old pre production model.

Yes, I believe I can speak for the majority by saying 238 HP is just fine considering the performence and overall enjoyment of the vehicle. We just want more proof than a number on a piece of paper. We ask for the Dynographs for the production model, like the ones Mazda provided us with that said 247 HP. We also ask for technical reasons why the RENESIS failed to meet EPA regs so late in the game. The EPA standards for the USA are well know in the auto industry....not something sprung on last minute at the ports.

Its our money. The dealerships should remember that you are there to SERVICE the customers. Provide accurate information and provide quality timely work. The dealers made a pretty penny on the RX8 so far. Show some respect to enthusiasts who are well read, detail oriented and happy to own Mazda vehicles.

I doubt that you can "help us out" as you stated. However if you really want to help, you can bring some information you learned on this forum back to the dealership you work for.

Originally posted by BRx8


tell that to the Japanese owners with 250ps...or the magazine that just reported the ECU was reprogrammed to adhere to strict emissions...


Hey the good news is you can sell your car back and go buy one from Japan!

But the truth of the matter is that I bought one for the same reason everyone else bought one... 9 more hp or not 9 hp, anyway you slice it it is a great car!

RX-WillyStyle,
Like MNAO, you have choosen to conveniently skip over the issue at hand (read quote). Now the funny thing about having any credibility with measured numbers (i.e. Hp, torque, 0-60 times...) is that they must be repeatable by other people to really mean anything and to date that hasn't happen with either the Hp or torque. With the recent announcement it seems like Mazda's legal department is choosing the Hp numbers that have the lowest calculated risk to the company and they have little interest in publishing the true numbers. Come on, have some balls and just tell us the truth about the decrease in power from the advertised 247Hp.

P.S. Remember that the first step to fixing a problem is admitting that you have one. ;)

Originally posted by Gyro
Several different independant testors have all shown roughly the same results. Chassis dynometers have concluded as of yet the WHP is in the 165-180 range. Seeing that you "work" at the dealership you would understand that those figures are far below even the new revised flywheel HP figures. 238 HP is still vastly overstated.

Well that BS meter didn't show up like I'd hoped but some great comments did even better. I just hope we can get the whole story on this. For my part the clock is ticking and if I don't hear something better than spin, mine is going back. I will be disappointed but it is only a car ;)

Commentator....I remember the BS meter. I dont have it ...BUT will this little guy do?

it's not a matter of whether it, in your opinion, was never lost. it is a matter of misleading advertising. living in a high altitude, that 3.6 loss is more like 5% loss.
the problem i have is that we purchased the car at retail and did not get what was advertised. they should offer the difference back to invoice.
they are going to have my car back
it's also an ergonomic nightmare. nice visor on the side position, worthless. nice seat, rolls my body around like a caddy. poor postion on the nav controls. my wrist hits it while resting on the stick. nice arm rest on the door. way too low to be practical. quite frankly, a major disappointment all the way around. short your ford stock if you have any.

Originally posted by RX-WillyStyle
Power is not lost if power was never there! Remember this.


OH WHERE TO BEGIN RX-WillyStyle.

Power WAS lost... we were lead along with figures like 250HP then 247HP, and may I remind you my windows sticker says 247HP, as does all literature I have received.

Mazda missed the power assesment by 3.6% from 247hp to 238hp. By federal industry standards a manufacturer can miss power by up to 4% and be leagally accepted. So do not look down on Mazda for missing this, but instead look up on them for acknowledging this.

Pls excuse by suspicion here, but hummm let's see... 247x .04 = 9.88. So you are saying if Mazda had instead lowered the HP by 10HP not 9HP they would be in violation of some federal rule about how much a car manufacturere can hike their HP rating and still be OK?

Two things, first the whole idea here sorta reminds me of the federal law about how many fly wings can be in our peanut butter and not be in violation of the health laws. Things can be wrong... as long as they are not too wrong? Yes? Now I've got it.

Second thing, on the surface, using the smell test, don't these new numbers look kinda self serving? I mean Mazda just missed a REAL PROBLEM by a little .12HP there! Good show! I'd really like to see the PROOF of this miraculous escape from this federal law myself.

WHY am I SO SUSPICIOUS YOU ASK? If Mazda could not determine the correct HP of the car in 4 yrs of development, pls understand my wondering how they got it (exactly) right in a few short weeks in Aug 2003? Boggles the mind doesn't it?

Now we all bought our cars based on the perfomance of this vehicle. NOT THE HORSEPOWER. If the thing had 100hp, and did 0-60 in 5.9 secs then it still did 0-60 in 5.9secs. Remember this Ladies and gents! And no times or performance has changed.

I'm sorry, I never got to drive the car while it was being designed. I BOUGHT a car, however, with a stated 247 HP and didn't know Mazda gave any 0-60 times or anything of the kind. They quoted Road and Track on a pre-production car on the 'times' you mention. That's NOT a Mazda spec that I know of.

NOW and this does seem obvious, but I'll state it so you know why you are wrong:

One would reasonably expect a 247HP car to beat a 238HP car, all things being equal.. YES?? Well so would I.....SO I BOUGHT A 247HP CAR EXPECTING NOT 5.9 SEC 0-60, BUT WHATEVER 247HP CAR WOULD GIVE, BUT I GOT A 238HP CAR INSTEAD! It is so simple and I didn't get it RX-WillyStyle !!

DO the math ladies and gentlemen when it all boils down we all just got brand new RX-8's for cost with all the money we will be saving.

(My) MSRPis $31409 less invoice (msn site) of $28,781 = $2628 profit not including any holdbacks usually about 3%. My $500 debit car and service is maybe 1/2 of that... sorry I would like to take cost on the car, but I don't think MNAO's deal will get me there.

So be proud about you purchase, I sure as heck am.

At least here RX-WillyStyle, I can agree with you, but that's it.

Originally posted by commentator
Well that BS meter didn't show up like I'd hoped but some great comments did even better. I just hope we can get the whole story on this. For my part the clock is ticking and if I don't hear something better than spin, mine is going back. I will be disappointed but it is only a car ;)
Sorry I'm late.. will this do? :)

Originally posted by RX-WillyStyle
My source... the Vice President of Mazda North American Operations that Mazda held declaring this "so called problem."

I missed this one RX-WillyStyle, sorry. If the President of MNAO doesn't think they have a problem, he should re-visit history for pointers from say... Richard Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton, whatever his name was at Tyco, people at Enron, this list is nearly endless of those that plead innocence in the face of facts.

Mind you, he did not create the problem, Mazda Japan did, but really his comments are a bit arrogant don't you think?

Bottom line? Resistance is futile... Houston (opps), we have a problem....where is damage control? ... might be more appropriate.

Originally posted by Spin9k
he should re-visit history for pointers from say... Richard Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton, .
"I'm not misinformed!" http://webhome.idirect.com/~jsmialek/Smileys/notacrook.gif

wow. See now, I used to work at a dealership also..Acura to be exact.

Im a Car enthusiast..have been since I was 15 (27 now). I worked at a dealer because I was laid off from my job and needed immediate work.

The response from RX-Willystyle was exactly something you should hear from a salesperson/dealership.

Try to turn the situation around so that it LOOKS BETTER then it is.

Even if you were trying to be nice Willystyle, it still sounded 'canned' and dealership style.

bottom line: Mazda should have done things correctly from day ONE, and wouldn't have been in this mess. Whether you think the cup is half full or half empty. Something is missing.

Originally posted by Spin9k


I missed this one RX-WillyStyle, sorry. If the President of MNAO doesn't think they have a problem, he should re-visit history for pointers from say... Richard Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton, whatever his name was at Tyco, people at Enron, this list is nearly endless of those that plead innocence in the face of facts.

Mind you, he did not create the problem, Mazda Japan did, but really his comments are a bit arrogant don't you think?

Bottom line? Resistance is futile... Huston, we have a problem....where is damage control? ... might be more appropriate.


First things first.....the Borgs are not taking over, and you misspelled Houston! :)

Please do not relate politics to this vehicle HP issue. Mazda didnt just make up this HP number and hope that we wouldnt catch it. I believe in Mazda, that it was a mistake and sh*t happens.

If the government lies to us do we just get up and leave....no! because we like it here. So when Mazda misrepresents the RX-8 we stick with what we love (our 8's) and take the $500 debit card and go by an intake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or have one custom made.

RX has the idea! Stay up man, you definitely know your sh*t!

And for all you people who are downin the car, SELL IT BACK, I don't want you driving the same car as me anyway! :)
__________________
Ryan

I apologize Acura guy when I bluntly stated that I was a "salesman" as you put it. The question you must ask yourself is where, if anywhere, did I say I was a salesman. Read a little more before you make your accusations, because I did not.

The truth of the matter is I am happy with my cars performance, and am still happy with my cars performance. I am not stating my peace because I work at a dealership, but because I am an RX-8 owner, and therefore a Mazda customer!

If I did not own an RX-8 and worked at a dealership than you can lead to believe that my response would be angled in Mazda’s favor. But since I do, you must only believe that I share the same concerns as every other RX-8 owner....with just different opinions on the matter.

And my opinions are my own...still a happy Mazda enthusiast and proud RX-8 owner!

Is the advertised power of 238hp at the wheels or the flywheel?

thank you,
Allan

Originally posted by RX-WillyStyle


Hey the good news is you can sell your car back and go buy one from Japan!

But the truth of the matter is that I bought one for the same reason everyone else bought one... 9 more hp or not 9 hp, anyway you slice it it is a great car!

we're not talking about whether you like the car or not, that's not the point...you're rediculous statement about the car not having a power loss at all is completely wrong and your whole thread should be deleted just for giving misinformation...i don't know where you get your assumptions from whether you're just pulling them out of thin air but if you read up on current events you'll find out that the engine was capable of 247hp and is now 238hp because Mazda reprogrammed the ECUs at port...

yes, i agree it's a great car and if you haven't noticed, i've been an advocate of keeping the car...but please don't try to duck and hide your original claim of "speaking" with Mazda's VP and that there were no actual HP loss because there was and we all know about it...

RX-WillyStyle does bring a very interesting point to the situation. I had never heard of this 4% 'law'. Is it a plus or minus 4%? I wish RX-WillyStyle, being a delaership guy, would give us all some references or site from the government that talks about this please.

BUT, here is where it could get interesting. OK so now without causing any law breaking, Mazda has a new HP figure 238. Great - they are at peace with the world, if not all their existing customers.

So does it not now follow that they are allowed to say that their HP figure can now vary 4% again? If so, then -4% from 238HP becomes 228.48HP.. Now are we getting real? Now any variances are just a "within tolerances issue" from Mazda's point of view.

Let's try another reality cross calculation...

228.5HP -188.5 RWHP = 40 HP losss = 18% loss. Sound reasonable now doesn't it... an all according to the book, I mean law. No harm, no foul!

Originally posted by Spin9k
228.5HP -188.5 RWHP = 40 HP losss = 18% loss. Sound reasonable now doesn't it... an all according to the book, I mean law. No harm, no foul!

That's exactly what I meant when I said that Mazda'a legal department is choosing the Hp numbers to publish. They are just trying to do damage control but I'd prefer it if they would try to fix the problem versus just covering it up.

Well Willy, there is one thing in Mazdas favor right now. Not many people have taken their RX-8 to the dragstrip. I've only seen one timeslip. The preproduction car ran 14.5 at 96 mph. Well for the one timeslip I've seen, the RX-8 ran 90 mph. The difference between 90 and 96 in the 1/4 mile is a whole lot more than 9 hp. It's closer to 40 hp or more.... Even discounting driver ability, shift technique, the particular track etc., a 6 mph difference indicates a significant loss of power. No two ways about it.

Then there is every dyno chart I've ever seen... you'll notice when the 3rd set of intake runners comes on line, power dips and then does nothing. The high rpm power that is supposed to be there just doesn't exist.

I was looking at buying an RX-8 early next year. I won't be looking again until the missing power is found, and I'm not talking about the claimed 9 hp. I'm talking about the real missing 40 or so hp.

Mazda's RX-8 power debacle has made all those used FDs look that much more attractive, as they made their power. And if I want a 4 seat sportscar, BMW, makes the 3 series. You can get a 330i sport with 4 seats, more room, a bigger trunk and just as much or more power. There is also the Lexus IS300 which has 4 full sized doors. Even in the 4 door sports car / sedan market, power is an issue. If power weren't an issue, then ratings would never be published and no one would care. Apparently people do care.

I currently own a Mazda, my family has owned around 20 of them, but I'm not about to plunk down $30Gs on an RX-8 that doesn't deliver the legendary performance of the RX line. There are two sitting on my local Mazda dealer's lot. They've been there a month. They'll likely be there a lot longer too. Auto enthusiasts are well read. You can waive all the smoke and mirrors you want, timing equipment and dynomameters don't lie. Machines aren't capable of lying, only people can do that.

Willy are you a DSM/DSCM out of the Chicago Mid-West Region?

Originally posted by RX-WillyStyle
The truth of the matter is I am happy with my cars performance, and am still happy with my cars performance.

..........still a happy Mazda enthusiast and proud RX-8 owner!


excellent ! me too:) your original post is still wrong but at least we agree the car is great!

Originally posted by Spin9k

So does it not now follow that they are allowed to say that their HP figure can now vary 4% again? If so, then -4% from 238HP becomes 228.48HP.. Now are we getting real? Now any variances are just a "within tolerances issue" from Mazda's point of view.

Let's try another reality cross calculation...

228.5HP -188.5 RWHP = 40 HP losss = 18% loss. Sound reasonable now doesn't it... an all according to the book, I mean law. No harm, no foul!
exactly, although i thought eccles said Mazda is saying +/- 5% when he posted the news the other day and i believe that is what budaman said later. which would seem to bump into the "4% law".

Originally posted by AnthonyS

Then there is every dyno chart I've ever seen... you'll notice when the 3rd set of intake runners comes on line, power dips and then does nothing. The high rpm power that is supposed to be there just doesn't exist.



That's what the posted dynos show, but I can assure you there's at least ONE RX-8 that gets a power boost above 6K, and it's sitting in my garage right now after a few hard runs down a lonely dark road!

Either some cars have a failure, or there is something peculiar about how the RX-8 runs on a dyno.

Oh no!... not again. Don't you guys ever get enough of this?:o

Originally posted by AnthonyS


I currently own a Mazda, my family has owned around 20 of them, but I'm not about to plunk down $30Gs on an RX-8 that doesn't deliver the legendary performance of the RX line. There are two sitting on my local Mazda dealer's lot. They've been there a month. They'll likely be there a lot longer too. Auto enthusiasts are well read. You can waive all the smoke and mirrors you want, timing equipment and dynomameters don't lie. Machines aren't capable of lying, only people can do that.

No, machines do not lie, but they can be misconfigured, improperly mouted or measured differently.

Case in point: My RX7. 2 weekends in a row I took my car to 2 different dyno's. 1st weekend I took it to ATR(Automotive Technology and Research) in Fair Play, SC and ran my car on their Mustang Dyno. 1st run was 151rwhp. 2nd run, after I tightened down the straps to what they SHOULD have been, I ran 176.2rwhp. Not too bad, I was happy. My point with that is the way the car is mounted can mean the different in 10-20hp. The next weekend I took my car to Versuch Motorsports in Anderson, SC and pulled 186.5 my first run. Again, I tightened down the straps and then finally pulled a 197.5rwhp.

My car didn't magically gain any horsepower, I did absoluty nothing to it except drive back and fourth to work like I did every other day of the week.

Granted, that doesn't account for the loss in HP for the RX8, but let me offer a theory. I was at the local RX7 shop(who prefers to remain nameless until we get some real test results) and we were looking at the Factory Service Manual. After looking thru the manual and then testing out to prove our point in the RX8 that just happened to be sitting out front, thank you John Finger for letting us borrow the RX8. It turns out that while DCS is turned off, TCS is NOT turned off when your shut both off. TCS, infact, still remains very aware of what is going on. After a few burnouts at the Greer Dragstrip, again thanks for the help if your reading, we found that TCS is pulling timing HEAVILY when the front wheels arn't turning.

Where did the lost horsepower go? Between the 20k fuel map and TCS pulling timing, I believe we are looking at about 30-35 lost at the wheels. The 20k switch we can do nothing about, but the TCS we may be able to test, and thats what were going to try over the next month...disabling TCS and DSC completely.

EDIT: The 2nd dyno was a Dynojet

Originally posted by Gyro
RX...........First of all, these cars we all purchased (or plan to) were not gifts. I dont know about you, but 28,300 is alot of money to me. Getting all that was promised is an important factor.

Some points you seemed to have left out from your rant;

Several different independant testors have all shown roughly the same results. Chassis dynometers have concluded as of yet the WHP is in the 165-180 range. Seeing that you "work" at the dealership you would understand that those figures are far below even the new revised flywheel HP figures. 238 HP is still vastly overstated.

The majority of forum members are getting MPG figures far below the stated EPA sticker. The reports are too widespread and consistant to pass off as individual driving habits. This is of concern for obvious reasons.

Also (since you mentioned it), how do you know what emissions equipment the pre-pro vehicles had? Seems to me since Mazda suddenly revised the numbers for HP, that it related to a recent change to the RENESIS engine. Not a year old pre production model.

Yes, I believe I can speak for the majority by saying 238 HP is just fine considering the performence and overall enjoyment of the vehicle. We just want more proof than a number on a piece of paper. We ask for the Dynographs for the production model, like the ones Mazda provided us with that said 247 HP. We also ask for technical reasons why the RENESIS failed to meet EPA regs so late in the game. The EPA standards for the USA are well know in the auto industry....not something sprung on last minute at the ports.

Its our money. The dealerships should remember that you are there to SERVICE the customers. Provide accurate information and provide quality timely work. The dealers made a pretty penny on the RX8 so far. Show some respect to enthusiasts who are well read, detail oriented and happy to own Mazda vehicles.

I doubt that you can "help us out" as you stated. However if you really want to help, you can bring some information you learned on this forum back to the dealership you work for.

well said

N1X, you are correct, people operating machines do often make mistakes. People are still the culprit when it comes to untruths not machines. I've seen at least 10 RX-8 dyno plots now that are all very close to one another.

If the car were indeed pulling timing as severely as you say, than the one timeslip I've seen so far would support that theory. The one 1/4 mile timeslip I've seen does not. It clearly supports the missing hp theory. There is more than 9 hp missing according to both the dyno plots and the 1/4 mile time. That said I find the agreement on the amount of power between multiple dyno and the one timeslip more compelling than your one dyno story. The preponderance of evidence says the power is missing. If the timing issue due to nonrolling front tires were an issue, don't you think the engineers at Mazda would've formulated a reply by now? As an engineer myself, I sure hope so.

Other automobiles with traction control and yaw control post consistent dyno numbers as well like the current generation of Corvettes and BMWs. I don't think Mazda's computer controls are that much more sophisticated than anyone elses. I don't buy the stopped front tire, yanking timing theory.