i was wondering and i searched..

please dont flame me...

beers :beer:

im pretty sure it most be mazda

Maybe we should star a thread on who has spend the most in R&D on FI renesis :mdrmed:

Im sure its either mazda or gredy

i was wondering and i searched..

please dont flame me...

beers :beer:
Mazda without a doubt, but outside of them it would have to be Dr Iannetti and his NC company Design ideas. Each block of his material that gets purchased in normal production costs 10s of thousands of dollars. This is outside of the R&D money he has spent in the last 17 years or so. I hope I have permission to be this detailed but the numbers can look like 40 or 50k and there is a varying loss percentage to the material which is just the nature of the ceramic. It has to be cut which requires expensive tooling since the ceramic has a similar hardness to diamond, then it has to be x-rayed for flaws. Then there's a bunch more processing including chamfering and polishing . These are some of the things to the best of my memory that go into the manufacturing end of quality seal manufacture.
This is sometimes a losing prospect in terms of profitability and is done for the passion to improve things that the Dr has. He often seems frustrated by the returns for his time and money investment but thank God that he continues to do it since his are the seals that Mazda Competition parts continues to use and the only seals that Downing Atlanta has used since 1990.

ah,
that jim downing guy...

i think the bigger issue here is the cost to benifit ratio...

it is like the fight between the ceptorx vs the flashes that might happen in the near future...

both work... but is it worth the money spent...

24 hrs daytona / lemans... yep you bet cha.... humble people like us, sorry me...

not so much...

just my o i could be wrong...

beers :beer:

There's no doubt that this type of product is not for everyone. As you have properly indicated the benefits are mostly for the racing community. If you are planning on spending a lot of time between 7 to 10k rpms it becomes more and more worth it. The stock seals sag and wear quicker than people realize when being stressed beyond their planned purpose. If you want to build the best normally aspirated motor possible there is no other choice. The result would be the most power potential and longest life.

What I'm saying is they will make more torque at elevated rpms (HP) even to the point where the lesser equipped one drops off due to better sealing by way of higher spring pressure. You simply cannot run as much pressure in this way with steel seals unless you are trying to make sparks. Obviously there is an rpm at which this motor runs out of breath but with inferior seals it just happens earlier than the ports are fully capable of. These seals are so much better that they can continue making this increased power for many cycles than would be imagined otherwise (as seen in racing applications) whilst being gentle on the rotor grooves and the rotor housing surface. There's a reason they are so expensive.

Okay, I understand that ceramic seals are more durable, especially at high RPM's, but I'm confused about the higher spring pressure part. I thought the force of the seals against the housing were mostly generated by combustion pressure, like with piston rings or industrial ball valves and so forth. I thought the springs were just there to give you the initial pressure.

How much of a power difference are we talking about? And does anyone make Renesis seals yet? Not that I'm in any position to buy. I'm just curious what a N/A motor could do with the right seals, porting, exhaust inserts, and tuning.

I HAVE......AFTER 20 YEARS OF CONSTRUCTION.....IT IS COMPLETE!!!! THE ULTIMATE SEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://www.packagingdigest.com/News/Images/0204np001.jpg

I'm going to go with SeaWorld.

http://www.comozooconservatory.org/zoo/images/Sparky.jpg

You know how much those damned seals cost each? And you have to replace them every 5 years or so.

Okay, I understand that ceramic seals are more durable, especially at high RPM's, but I'm confused about the higher spring pressure part. I thought the force of the seals against the housing were mostly generated by combustion pressure, like with piston rings or industrial ball valves and so forth. I thought the springs were just there to give you the initial pressure.

How much of a power difference are we talking about? And does anyone make Renesis seals yet? Not that I'm in any position to buy. I'm just curious what a N/A motor could do with the right seals, porting, exhaust inserts, and tuning.
Above certain rpms the seal tends to lose contact momentarily after retracting in the minor axis in it's travel around the rotor housing. This can be eliminated through more spring pressure which has other benefits like reducing the opportunity for spark knock caused by hot combustion gas getting by the seal and and influencing the next chamber that is under compression awaiting a spark.
In this way improved high rpm sealing allows for more advanced ignition timing and somewhat leaner mixtures (Which can potentially lead to more power).
I'd say they're good for a conservative 10hp increase through a range in the upper rpms, and again don't forget that the ceramic is so compatible with the housing surface that it can continue to provide these benefits for a tremendous period of time.
If you are a registered racer with Mazda Competition Parts (Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development) you can buy these seals designed for the Renesis otherwise they aren't really available to the public.

Above certain rpms the seal tends to lose contact momentarily after retracting in the minor axis in it's travel around the rotor housing. This can be eliminated through more spring pressure which has other benefits like reducing the opportunity for spark knock caused by hot combustion gas getting by the seal and and influencing the next chamber that is under compression awaiting a spark.
In this way improved high rpm sealing allows for more advanced ignition timing and somewhat leaner mixtures (Which can potentially lead to more power).
I'd say they're good for a conservative 10hp increase through a range in the upper rpms, and again don't forget that the ceramic is so compatible with the housing surface that it can continue to provide these benefits for a tremendous period of time.
If you are a registered racer with Mazda Competition Parts (Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development) you can buy these seals designed for the Renesis otherwise they aren't really available to the public.

great info here,

this thread is going places.

thx:)

beers :beer:

Okay another question, a while back someone on another website mentioned this one company that sells apex seals, and supposedly they guarantee that they won't break in your engine, period. I don't remember the company's name though. On their website, the seals were pictured in a wooden display box like they were jewelry or something, lol. Is that a racing-only seal or what?

Above certain rpms the seal tends to lose contact momentarily after retracting in the minor axis in it's travel around the rotor housing. This can be eliminated through more spring pressure which has other benefits like reducing the opportunity for spark knock caused by hot combustion gas getting by the seal and and influencing the next chamber that is under compression awaiting a spark.
In this way improved high rpm sealing allows for more advanced ignition timing and somewhat leaner mixtures (Which can potentially lead to more power).
I'd say they're good for a conservative 10hp increase through a range in the upper rpms, and again don't forget that the ceramic is so compatible with the housing surface that it can continue to provide these benefits for a tremendous period of time.
If you are a registered racer with Mazda Competition Parts (Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development) you can buy these seals designed for the Renesis otherwise they aren't really available to the public.

We use to take and bevel the base of the old 12A carbon Apex seals to allow a bit of combustion gas in to aid in holding the Apex against the rotor housing.
Then they came out with the 12B which used the 2 piece Apex seal with corner wedge like the 1974 13B had in it. This allowed for better sealing on the side and top surfaces due to the exspansion and movement of the corner wedge. Making constant contact during rotation. Made it a bit more difficult to do a bridge port due to the size of the small wedge
limiting the bridge port, port size.
Ah the good 'ol days

Okay another question, a while back someone on another website mentioned this one company that sells apex seals, and supposedly they guarantee that they won't break in your engine, period. I don't remember the company's name though. On their website, the seals were pictured in a wooden display box like they were jewelry or something, lol. Is that a racing-only seal or what?
There have been more than one company making outlandish claims like this. Some of the really durable seals that may not break under adverse conditions will wear other parts at rates that you don't want to see. Some can do well due to their softness (Ability to stand detonation without breaking) but will wear quickly and allow leakage quickly (And HP loss). These are mostly in forced induction situations that these claims are applied. Seal choice has a lot to do with one's application. Someone running 950 rwhp from a turbocharged alcohol burning 13B for a dozen runs down the quarter mile will have different sealing needs than someone taking the kids to school and soccer games.
Whatever the application, it's imperative that the engine builder and the tuner have a clue what they are doing in terms of clearances, integrity of parts and tuning in order to ward off un-necessary failure of any parts.
Google Iannetti Ceramic Seals when you have a chance and judge for yourself if they are the ultimate; especially the results pertaining to RX8s and other Renesis powered cars using these in racing series. I'm just one voice here. There are some very intereting statements to be found.

We use to take and bevel the base of the old 12A carbon Apex seals to allow a bit of combustion gas in to aid in holding the Apex against the rotor housing.
Then they came out with the 12B which used the 2 piece Apex seal with corner wedge like the 1974 13B had in it. This allowed for better sealing on the side and top surfaces due to the exspansion and movement of the corner wedge. Making constant contact during rotation. Made it a bit more difficult to do a bridge port due to the size of the small wedge
limiting the bridge port, port size.
Ah the good 'ol days
Easy,
Nice to see someone who has been around a while, long enough to have worked with the twin distributor motors I see. :)

I'm just one voice here. There are some very intereting statements to be found.

This may be an obvious question....I dunno, I haven't done the background.

Who are you? I take it you are closely associated with Iannetti Ceramic Seals?

This may be an obvious question....I dunno, I haven't done the background.

Who are you? I take it you are closely associated with Iannetti Ceramic Seals?
Some here know me, but I'm here incognito :eyetwitch . I have been blessed to be friends with Rick Engman and Dr Iannetti, both of which I have incredible respect for. I chose the name CERAMICSEAL in honor of a true consumate professional. These people gained my respect also for their ethics and pleasant manner in every day dealings. I'm just another 'Nerd' of the rotary persuasion hoping to play my role in moving this 'machine' forward.

Easy,
Nice to see someone who has been around a while, long enough to have worked with the twin distributor motors I see. :)


Yeah I started working on Rotaries in 1978.
At an Independant Rotary shop in Washington State.
It's initials are HRE.
We had alot of fun back then. :ylsuper:

so much great info in this threat! its nice to see members of this forum that know what they are talking about instead of someone making a clain and if you disgree you get flame and treated like a troll

so CERAMICSEAL do you recomend this seals for a street driven hi mod NA car?

so much great info in this threat! its nice to see members of this forum that know what they are talking about instead of someone making a clain and if you disgree you get flame and treated like a troll

so CERAMICSEAL do you recomend this seals for a street driven hi mod NA car?
Absolutely! They have all the qualitys one could ask for if your needs are beyond the avaerage. If you want more horses and like spinning it up, for those who may do occasional track time also. These are the answer.

jim? i mean that in a imsa way...

beers :beer:

jim? i mean that in a imsa way...

beers :beer:
Good Jim, (Another man I have the utmost respect for) if you've ever met him, you'd know he doesn't have time to be posting things on the internet. There's a reason he's considered the wise man of motorsports. He gets to bed at a sensible hour so he can operate effectively in the 'World of HANS'. :)

Good Jim, (Another man I have the utmost respect for) if you've ever met him, you'd know he doesn't have time to be posting things on the internet. There's a reason he's considered the wise man of motorsports. He gets to bed at a sensible hour so he can operate effectively in the 'World of HANS'. :)

to fcking funny.... the fact that he is responsable for the hans it a blessing.... but you get my drift... goodspeed...

on target.

beers :beer:

Here's and interesting read on ceramic seals
http://p211.ezboard.com/fformulamazdaforumstarsccarulesracin.showMessageRa nge?start=1&stop=20&topicID=163.topic

http://p211.ezboard.com/fformulamazdaforumstarsccarulesracin.showMessageRa nge?start=1&stop=20&topicID=163.topic
Pay close attention to what is stated by Daryl Drummond in that thread. He is one of the best builder/tuners in the rotary racing community. And don't forget boys and girls: "Not all Ceramic seals are created equal".
Paul.

it is settle my next rebuilt for my race car im going with ianetti ceramics and also for my rx-8 ( when I buy it)