I'm selling my car back because of the way Mazda has handled just about everything to do with the car besides the car itself.
They can eat the loss and maybe learn a lesson about how to tell the truth in a timely way to ther loyal customers.
I'll get another RX-8 and start our relationship fresh and new.
Swallow hard Mazda.

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
I'm selling my car back because of the way Mazda has handled just about everything to do with the car besides the car itself.
They can eat the loss and maybe learn a lesson about how to tell the truth in a timely way to ther loyal customers.
I'll get another RX-8 and start our relationship fresh and new.
Swallow hard Mazda.


As posted in other threads, it is likely that the buyback will include a clause that you will not purchase a 2004 Mazda RX-8 at a later date. The Miata fiasco had that clause.

Let me get this straight~

They false advertised a product probably knowing full well the facts before hand. Then unsuspected constomers have to go out of their ways to discover this lie, and then make noise to get Mazda to acknowledge their scam. Now they are saying they are willing to buy back the car as well they should, because they broke the sales contract by not deliverying a product as advertised. BUT they are saying by returning a flawed product, you have to sign a legal agreement that will restrain how you want to spend that money? Hey~ if they return your money, it's yours to spend anyway you like. What would they do if you buy another RX-8 used in the next 3 month? Sue you? Sure sounds like something Mazda USA would do. :mad:

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
Let me get this straight~

They false advertised a product probably knowing full well the facts before hand. Then unsuspected constomers have to go out of their ways to discover this lie, and then make noise to get Mazda to acknowledge their scam. Now they are saying they are willing to buy back the car as well they should, because they broke the sales contract by not deliverying a product as advertised. BUT they are saying by returning a flawed product, you have to sign a legal agreement that will restrain how you want to spend that money? Hey~ if they return your money, it's yours to spend anyway you like. What would they do if you buy another RX-8 used in the next 3 month? Sue you? Sure sounds like something Mazda USA would do. :mad:

I assume that Mazda might think it odd if you bought a car last week, returned it because you were so unhappy about it next week and then bought exactly the same model car immediately after. Does the customer think the new car is going to make them happier? I suppose the customer might think that the new car will be well below MSRP and so is better value for money, but that is why Mazda is trying to give the customer incentives to keep the car in the first place...

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
Now they are saying they are willing to buy back the car as well they should, because they broke the sales contract by not deliverying a product as advertised. BUT they are saying by returning a flawed product, you have to sign a legal agreement that will restrain how you want to spend that money?Sure. You don't like that option; take the alternative.

BTW<,what color is your car???
Mmmmmm.:o

Originally posted by pelucidor

I suppose the customer might think that the new car will be well below MSRP and so is better value for money, but that is why Mazda is trying to give the customer incentives to keep the car in the first place...

Let's increase that incentive more, you guys deserve more compensation than that. Honestly~ Even if you don't care about power ratings, Mazda needs to PAY for false advertisement. Seems that they got away with it in the Miata days so they figure 'let's do it again, worst case scenario we just give them back free service and some gift certificate that will cost us like $800......) I don't want them to get away with this, and I think you guys deserve more - Afterall, everyone who took the plunge already are hardcore RX-8 enthusiasts, and Mazda should appreciate that fact and do more to make you guys happy.

Gosh - thanks for looking out for us buyers Skyline. How much more do you think Mazda should give us? Personally I would have been happy with just free servicing for the warranty period (of course best of all would be to FIX it).

I understand that a $1500 total value incentive to the buyer is probably only costing Mazda about $700 or less, but it's still not bad if Mazda is claiming the performance figures won't change (0-60 in 6 secs or less, 1/4 mile in 14.5 or less). My dealer told me the $500 debit card could be used on anything, anywhere (not Mazda specific) which helps a bit. We will see if he was right.

A class action law suit is in order there must be some good solicitors to take on mazda $500 and free service for 3 years is a cheap and easy way out for them, at least its more than the OZ drivers get we lost 7kw and 5nm so far and mazda has
given us sweet F***K ALL

At least mazda OZ was up front and told us in a letter of the 7kw and 5nm power loss before we picked up our cars , but you guys have been weel and truly screwed .
This is not about the rx8 being a fun drive this is about disonest and deceptive advertisingon mazdas behalf .

SHAME SHAME SHAMESHAME.

Selling due to:
Soft suspension compared to S2000
Poor gas mileage compared to S2000 (14 RX8 vs 19)
Burning oil smell when starting car
Trunk that has too small of an opening
No power at redline
So-so AC

I will miss the styling and door design though. EVO, here I come.

If they have a clause about not buying a 2004 RX-8 then I won't buy one.
I really like my RX-8 but I really dislike the way Mazda has such contempt for it's customers.
Like I said, they can swallow hard.

Vince

I can't believe you people, just what the hell do you want from Mazda?

They are offering two clear-cut options:

1) "I'm pissed off, I want my money back."

2) "That sucks, but free maintenance makes up for it and I get an extra $500."

The buyback involved in (1) is more than generous - you get all your money back, I trust, no deductions for miles on the car, scratches, dents, etc. The only thing you may have to do is agree not to buy another one. It seems to me this is so patently fair it's amazing; you get your money back and walk away.

How this comes under any possible definition of "screwing" customers I can't understand, and is, IMHO, why I would hate to be a business trying to sell anything in America any more. You go out of your way to make customers whole in a bad situation and people complain they're being screwed. Sheesh...:mad:

It's like if you bought a product, turned around and returned it because you didn't like it and then turned around and bought another. The store would certainly be within their rights to not sell you another; just because it's the manufacturer doing this it doesn't seem any different...

Originally posted by SupraL
***Moderator Edit***

ok this post is just a plain cheap shot at Mazda as a whole when they're dealing with a not so good situation :mad:

Originally posted by BillK
I can't believe you people, just what the hell do you want from Mazda?


That's not the point BillK, Mazda is not doing you guys a 'favor' by offering buy backs. They have committed ANOTHER false advertisement claim that can be persued legally unless they give you the option of returning the car. This is not some service they offer you because they are nice, they do it because they want to avoid a nasty law suit. As far as free maintenance goes, it's good and all but honestly it's not worth as much as you think. I'd say give or take their 2nd offer will probably cost them less than $800 per car, which is quite pathetic consider the atrocity they have committed for a second time. Seems that Mazda USA learned from their mistake, which is "We can screw our customers over so long as we don't get caught. In the case we do get caught, just take the easy way out and give back a tiny portion of our profit."

Hey, if you bough a cartoon of a doze eggs and then found out there are only 10 eggs in there, what would you do?
1) Get refund
2) Get one egg for free (for a total of 11 eggs)
People are not angry at the RX-8 for not making enough power, they are angry because of Mazda USA's action and ethics in this whole situation. I thjink it's perfectly fair to demand more from Mazda than what they are already offer. I am refering to people who still want to keep their cars. This is not a $20k Miata, but a $30k premium flagship..... free service and $500 credit for Mazda accessories? Gimme a break.

Originally posted by compaddict
If they have a clause about not buying a 2004 RX-8 then I won't buy one.
I really like my RX-8 but I really dislike the way Mazda has such contempt for it's customers.
Like I said, they can swallow hard.
Vince
I'm not a lawyer, any here?? But I can't imagine how they can dictate wether you buy another one or not. Is there going to be some "blacklist" posted at all the dealers. Will there be "Wanted" posters in the post offices?

Besides if I have to wait 6 months it won't be any different than when I pre-ordered, except this time I'll know when my car is going to arrive. :D

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac

This is not a $20k Miata, but a $30k premium flagship..... free service and $500 credit for Mazda accessories? Gimme a break.
oh so just because its a miata is not important.

I guess the GT-St skyline or the sedans are not important to you because teh are not GT-R's

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
I thjink it's perfectly fair to demand more from Mazda than what they are already offer. I am refering to people who still want to keep their cars. This is not a $20k Miata, but a $30k premium flagship..... free service and $500 credit for Mazda accessories? Gimme a break.

I don't believe that RX-8 sales to date would have been dramatically different if the specs said 238hp all along rather than 247hp.

No one has bought this car without a test drive. And for those who had (prior to yesterday) decided that this was the wrong car to own, they get a gift from heaven, a $0 out.

I can understand being pissed at Mazda for screwing up the cars reputation, but let's get real....

Originally posted by SupraL

But what else can you really expect from Ford - (remember, Ford owns Mazda and the poor results are showing).

LOL AHAHAHAHHAH! So funny I dont want to believe it but its true.

I'm not a lawyer, any here?? But I can't imagine how they can dictate wether you buy another one or not. Is there going to be some "blacklist" posted at all the dealers. Will there be "Wanted" posters in the post offices?

I'm pre-law, so I'll take a stab at it =D. Assuming MazdaUSA requires people who want to take the buy back offers to sign a contract that guarantees said customer will not purchase a 20XX model RX-8, they WILL have grounds to seek damages against said consumer if they desire.

Common sense tells me that unless they can dictate some sort of restriction at the dealer level (for example, cutting down alotments of hot selling items), they will have no real way to enforce the rule. Mazda would die as a company if the Media caught wind that they were going to sue a customer for damages.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac


That's not the point BillK, Mazda is not doing you guys a 'favor' by offering buy backs. They have committed ANOTHER false advertisement claim that can be persued legally unless they give you the option of returning the car. This is not some service they offer you because they are nice, they do it because they want to avoid a nasty law suit. As far as free maintenance goes, it's good and all but honestly it's not worth as much as you think. I'd say give or take their 2nd offer will probably cost them less than $800 per car, which is quite pathetic consider the atrocity they have committed for a second time. Seems that Mazda USA learned from their mistake, which is "We can screw our customers over so long as we don't get caught. In the case we do get caught, just take the easy way out and give back a tiny portion of our profit."

Hey, if you bough a cartoon of a doze eggs and then found out there are only 10 eggs in there, what would you do?
1) Get refund
2) Get one egg for free (for a total of 11 eggs)
People are not angry at the RX-8 for not making enough power, they are angry because of Mazda USA's action and ethics in this whole situation. I thjink it's perfectly fair to demand more from Mazda than what they are already offer. I am refering to people who still want to keep their cars.

I believe that this is EXACTLY how most owners feel... But it seems like some people feel the need to defend Mazda no matter what wrong-doings they commit. It's not a mistake... They must have known how much power the cars put out....

Brand-loyalty is pretty strong with the RX crowd, and for good reason... But nothing can really excuse Mazda from doing what they have done... And we should be mad at Mazda for messing up with our beloved RX-8's reputation! The whole car enthusiasts community will know about this...

Wow,

Such hostility.

I'm guessing that the car struggled with today's emission standards more than they thought it would.

Mazda is already going to suffer dearly against the competition and they are not going to make any money off of this problem.

Take the money and free service or sell the car back to Mazda with hundreds of miles on it.

But everyone stop whinning like babbies. "We were screwed with the RX-7, we were screwed with the Miata, we were screwed with this and that."

geez,

-Mr. Wigggles

isnt it within a business' right to withhold service to anyone they choose for whatever reasons? (barring of course civil rights categories). On that basis I think Mazda is within their rights. I am not a lawyer this is not legal advice.

However... on breach of good faith thats another matter and I'd like an explanation of our standing in that case if anyone here can offer one?

Originally posted by Randy
Selling due to:
Soft suspension compared to S2000
Poor gas mileage compared to S2000 (14 RX8 vs 19)
Burning oil smell when starting car
Trunk that has too small of an opening
No power at redline
So-so AC

I will miss the styling and door design though. EVO, here I come.

Well all those points, except knowing the MPG's, should have been noticed during your test drive, which sounds like you didn't do in the first place. It definately seems like you bought the wrong car.

Good luck with your EVO.

Originally posted by ken830
Brand-loyalty is pretty strong with the RX crowd, and for good reason... But nothing can really excuse Mazda from doing what they have done... And we should be mad at Mazda for messing up with our beloved RX-8's reputation! The whole car enthusiasts community will know about this... Sorry, but I still don't understand this.

Mazda isn't doing anyone any favors but they are giving anyone who's upset by what happened an out, pure and simple, "here's your money back, sorry about the inconvenience."

In the mean time, Mazda did what I wanted them to all along, bring out another rotary powered car. 200, 225, 250 HP, who really gives a #$@!, as I said I don't drive numbers, I drive a car and really, if I wasn't on this board my reaction to the whole situation as a buyer would be "cool, free maintenance."

I don't care if it said 500 HP on the sticker, if I felt it drove like a slug I wouldn't buy it; likewise if it was peppy and said 150 HP it wouldn't matter either...

Dude. Seriously.

Skyline Maniac -

Why the fuck are you even here? 224 posts, and not a single one has been informative, useful, or insightful in the slightest. It's painfully obvious that your only purpose here is to slam the RX-8,slam Mazda, and troll.

You give a bad name to REAL Nissan enthusiasts.

I never saw the 2001 Miata buy back agreement, but... I know of two local fellows that returned their 2001 Miatas to the dealer (Mazda bought them back) and then, a couple of weeks later, repurchased them again "used" at a substantial discount.

I seriously doubt there will be any clause prohibiting you from purchasing another RX-8. Mazda may WANT to prevent folks from taking advantage of the buy back and then buying another for a lower price, but I doubt they will be successful.

It could be legally argued that any given individual felt the car was worth $35K with 250hp but only worth $32K with only 238hp. By taking advantage of the buy back, and waiting a bit, that might just turn out to be the price difference.

Mark

I shopped for some time before buying the RX8. I have shared on this site about my experience in test drives of the S2000, the G35, and the look only at the 350Z.

As one person already said, the test drive is where you can really tell a lot. The RX 8 is what it was when I drove it. Nothing has changed. It is a cool looking car with more versatility than ANY of the ones I mentioned above.

My concern here is a much greater one. I researched the RX 8 since the publications first started appearing and the "test" results and "first drives" ect. all were positive. Since I read the DYNO info on this site and owners questioning actual output, is it possible that it is not just a Mazda issue but rather a faux advertising thing going on with all cars? How can a car, any car pull 0-60 times and other figures and those figures be so different from what owners find to be? Remember this is not just from one source we are talking about. I know too that some have said it is the ECU but isn't there someone out there that can snatch another one of those chips from another country - whatever - and see? Mazda is honoring us by giving us full control here. TRULY. We have a 2001 Miata Limited Edition and the horsepower issue was not an issue with us. Eh, it ticked us off at first but then we chose a Miata as our car anyway no matter what the slight change in anything mattered - note SLIGHT.

The performance car owners will take this the hardest IMO and those who are shoppers and "other car" owners (RX 8 wannabes owners) that have say 350Z or G35 or maybe S2000 cars will use this as a way to dry out their taste for the RX but when you get down to it. It is EXACTLY AS IT WAS when it became available. Mazda has poised themselves to work with this situation it seems as best as they can and should not be attacked. I am not a loyalist - it could be any company.

What I fear most is the market and the resale. What may happen there? Help me rotarians. What happens in the world of mod cars - civic, prelude, EVO, GT3000, S2000, 350Z, etc. whe things like this happen? Will it really make a difference or just a setback?

ALso, has anyone bothered to do the math on the Most ridiculous article regarding torque and horsepower? If so, we could probably get right down to knowing mathematically the true "performance" of this car.

Some members are quick to point out how much money it is costing MAZDA in the "Free servicing" option. Speculating numbers like $700 and such. This may all be true, but isnt what servicing this vehicle for 4 years will cost US as consumers the real numbers we should look at.

Its true the "buyback" option will cost them more, but lets step back for a minute and stop thinking about Mazda.

some points:

1. If this board was not here.....I would never have questioned the power output in my car because it feels perfect to me. I would have just blindly recieved a letter stating my options as far as free servicing or buyback. Now for me.....a great car that I enjoy every minute of....now has free sevicing for 4 years, oh and 500 bucks also. sweeeeeeet!!

2. Pulling a "buyback" and turnaround deal seems like more of a pain in the ass for whats its worth. First of all, these cars have no problem selling where I am.....and they wont even after this screw up....quarranteed. So, sell it back ...then try to re purchace it.......even after i signed something to pevent this? I dont think so.......basically leave my car on some lot for WHOMEVER to drive and try to get it back.......realizing later that they are not discounting them all that much........Not for me. OR try to get a new one.....and sacrifice the exact one I ordered and wanted for "something like it".....only to find out that they are still getting MSRP for them......NO way. Oh and no free servicing on THAT car.

3. IF you are a true fan of the car.....own it and love every minute of it. Find excuses to go out and drive it (I know you have), Then we are winning BIG here. Alot of the Mazda Bashing around here is coming from jealous idiots that have never driven the car and felt the ear to ear smile it gives you. Who cares about what Mazda is doing.....knew about or covered up. They made a fabulous car at an already decent price, and now they are going to take care of it BMW style for 4 years. The guy who buys one today gets the same car and no free sevicing. We made out....plain and simple.

Enjoy your cars......enjoy your $500.....enjoy never paying for an oil change....tune up etc. If you are THAT pissed off about how Mazda wronged you.....turn it in.....buy an ugly ass EVO and join another piss and moan forum.

I believe that this car showed up at America's door with 247HP. It did not meet our EPA standards, waited at all the ports until parts and equipment could be sent to all the ports to reburn ECU proms that would meets the EPA standards (remember the minimum 3 week wait at all ports for no reason). There will be aftermarket chips that will recover all that was lost, plus. Just my opinion. But it kind of explains the whole port hush, hush, thing.
Mazda would not nowingly inport another car after past problems and repercusions. They have spent the last 2 month (quick in corporate time) coming up with an acceptable remedy for the problem.

They are probably leaking good solid burn info to aftermarket companies as we speak, to further remedy the situation.

I'm quite happy with whatever is coming out of it, and the money and service is a bonus.

I personally don't believe this is an emissions thing - you don't improve emissions by making the car run like a rich pig. Running like a rich pig only hurts emissions. This $500 will basically also only cover the amount of extra gas I will be needing in a year because of it burning like a rich pig. In a normal test drive you can not determine mpg, and you can not floor the car and see if it has all the power its suppose to - you buy a car in good faith that you are getting what you paid for.


hell, even GM gives $2,000 rebates to their customers for buying their pos's :p ... and their getting what is advertised!!!


... given all that, I like my car and will probaby keep it but hate the company

Originally posted by pr0ber

hell, even GM gives $2,000 rebates to their customers for buying their pos's :p ... and their getting what is advertised!!!



That's because no one wants them and they're trying everything they can to get them out the door. It's amazing what people will buy when they think they're getting a good deal.


Anyway, in response to this thread- you're not going to change anything at Mazda just because you take back your car. The 8 isn't the lifeblood of Mazda, but any standards. It might hurt them a bit if EVERYONE took it back, but that's not going to happen. Corporate boycotting just doesn't work unless you form a huge group, and in this case I don't see it happening.

And there's no way in hell I'm giving up my car. Maybe trade it in for a Mazdaspeed version in four years, but that was already part of my plan. If you don't want it, take it back, but if you do, keep it and enjoy the freebies.

It's not about the car, it's about the way Mazda has handled me as a customer.
I love the car and will get another ASAP.
My personal relationship with Mazda has changed for the worse and my hope is that this will spark a few fires and change their behavior.

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
It's not about the car, it's about the way Mazda has handled me as a customer.
I love the car and will get another ASAP.
My personal relationship with Mazda has changed for the worse and my hope is that this will spark a few fires and change their behavior.

I see just a tad of hypocracy here. Hey, if you wanna give the car back, do it and be glad you got the opportunity. But if it's to "punish" the company, then why are you saying you'll buy from them again. Sounds to me like your point is to get a better deal, which isn't punishing the company at all.

Secondly, what the heck did Mazda (as in, MNAO) ever do to you? Did perhaps the dealership treat you bad? That is certainly believable, there have been many informative threads about poor dealerships. But your only dealings with the Mazda Corp are probably the car itself (which you said you like) plus their pre-delivery communications. These clearly were lacking, but (1) I give them credit for trying, including the cool gifts we unexpectedly got and (2) How could that earn such wrath from you? Is there an untold story or a thread that I've missed about all this?

Originally posted by 8_wannabe


I see just a tad of hypocracy here. Hey, if you wanna give the car back, do it and be glad you got the opportunity. But if it's to "punish" the company, then why are you saying you'll buy from them again. Sounds to me like your point is to get a better deal, which isn't punishing the company at all.

Secondly, what the heck did Mazda (as in, MNAO) ever do to you? Did perhaps the dealership treat you bad? That is certainly believable, there have been many informative threads about poor dealerships. But your only dealings with the Mazda Corp are probably the car itself (which you said you like) plus their pre-delivery communications. These clearly were lacking, but (1) I give them credit for trying, including the cool gifts we unexpectedly got and (2) How could that earn such wrath from you? Is there an untold story or a thread that I've missed about all this?

I think you need to re-read my post. What "sounds like to you" is very different from what I wrote.

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
I think you need to re-read my post. What "sounds like to you" is very different from what I wrote.

Fair enough. I did so, and this is what I saw:

"I'm selling my car back because of the way Mazda has handled just about everything to do with the car besides the car itself.
They can eat the loss and maybe learn a lesson about how to tell the truth in a timely way to ther loyal customers. I'll get another RX-8 and start our relationship fresh and new."

I'm not sure what I misinterpreted. You're gonna sell your car back cuz you don't like how Mazda treated you (i.e., they don't tell the truth in a timely manner.) Then you're gonna buy another 8. I'm not sure how buying another 8 is gonna "show them"; they'd be delighted to have you buy another. Secondly, what have they not told the truth about in a timely manner? For them to reassess their vehicle, get the lawyers to sign off on a public statement (that they have overstated horsepower), come up with a remedy (the buy back or payoff), get corporate leadership and accountants to agree to the whole thing, and to do this all in a few weeks I think is pretty admirable. Corporations, and lawyers in particular, don't customarily work that fast on an issue this important. Personally, I'm impressed with how quickly they've come to light and are trying to resolve it.

So, either they've done something else to offend you, or you're just less tolerant than I. I'm really not sure what or how I might be misinterpreting your statement.

BTW, per opinions in other threads, if Mazda overestimated by less than 5% they are within their legal rights and don't owe us a darn thing. They could say the 8 gets only 235 hp and just say "Sorry, my bad" and give us nothing but maybe a refrigerator magnet. To unilaterally offer a deal like this is counter to how most organizations would respond. I think it speaks loudly to their commitment to customer satisfaction. Granted, they should have known the true hp of their car before selling it, and for all we know they did, but might have had to tweak it for EPA purposes. Looking at it from MNAO's point of view, they're losing money in three ways here, and not even griping about it:

1. Kept the cars on the dock all that time, which represents a huge cost of money in unsold assets. You can bet they were no happier about the delay than we were. Slow cash flow is costly.

2. They had to fix whatever the problem was on the docks. Let's say for now it was ECU changes for the EPA. You can bet Mazda was not happy about that either.

3. Now they've got to pay off the customers who only now are starting to pay off their cars.

All told, it's safe to say the cost to mazda is in the 10's of millions. It's not like they're enjoying this either, but they seem to be committed to making things right. This is just a minor speed bump on the road to a great new car. Let's not get too spun up about it.

8_wannabe:

Why do you quote me as writing "show them"?

Like most of what you write it has little to do with what I wrote.

Let me quote you: "I'm impressed with how quickly they've come to light and are trying to resolve it."
I think that you have much different standards for what impresses you.

What would have impressed me would have been an email from Mazda when they first knew that the cars would be down a few HP as a courtesy.

What I would have expected from Mazda is the real reason our cars were at port for a month. We really still don't know as the official "unofficial" word is that they were being hand inspected just to make sure they were perfect. [insert angels sitting on cloud icon]
The official word from most Mazda dealerships is that our cars were going through some EPA process.

Whatever, they can take the loss on my car as a way of saying apology not accepted.

Vince (real name)

Whatever.

John (real name) (ooooh, I'm all tingly with the courage mustered to post my real name...)

For those of you who are LEASING your rx8 and are thinking of selling back to mazda for whatever reason , have you considered who is going to pay for the EARLY PAY OUT PENALTY PAYMENT on your lease ???

Depending on your lease you or mazda could be up for a few thousands on your early payout ,so check with mazda and your leasing company as how much this will come to and who is going to cover the costs .

MAZDA OZ was upfront with OZ prepaid customers and downgraded the power output before we picked up our cars , and made the customers aware of this .

For what reason US mazda did not take similar steps is beyond my conprehension , they have created a lot of unnecessary problems for themselves and rx8 owners .

IMO the rx8 still rocks irregardless of the power FIASCO..

Originally posted by compaddict
If they have a clause about not buying a 2004 RX-8 then I won't buy one.
I really like my RX-8 but I really dislike the way Mazda has such contempt for it's customers.
Like I said, they can swallow hard.

Vince


uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh mazda did not, in legal terms, falsely advertise their product, auto manufactuerers are allowed a 5% leway between "actual" and "advertised". the rx-8 has 3.x% less power than advertised, which means they have NO obligation to do ANYTHING for buyers, and are simply offering the incentives and options out of good faith and good will

Originally posted by P00Man



uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh mazda did not, in legal terms, falsely advertise their product, auto manufactuerers are allowed a 5% leway between "actual" and "advertised". the rx-8 has 3.x% less power than advertised, which means they have NO obligation to do ANYTHING for buyers, and are simply offering the incentives and options out of good faith and good will

I know you're a lawyer and everything, but do you really believe that Mazda would offer this out of the kindness of their hearts? C'mon, I have my doubts about the 238. That's not to say the hp can't be remedied, but all the dynos done suggest that Mazda isn't fully owning up to the whole story.

You guys using logic 'n such need to understand that nothing will stop the 'Somebody Done Done Me Wrong" song that the snivelers on this forum will be singing for awhile.

Forget it, just stand back and let them freak-out. Nothing Mazda could have said or done would ever have pleased some people who want to assume the worst about the company and what they knew and when etc. - perhaps a few less Oliver Stone movies might have changed their outlook.

Don't worry that Mazda is within it's rights to ignore the whole thing since the power issue is less than 5%... try to forget your critical thinking skills when it comes to the speed with which Mazda USA ( a huge Corporation ) and it's lawyers have concluded the situation... and for God's sakes, do not - I repeat - do not consent to a battle of wits with an unarmed poster.

On a side note, it sure would be nice to come into this forum sometimes without having to walk through troll crap, but that's asking too much I guess.

Originally posted by ToRX-8orToZ

I'm pre-law, so I'll take a stab at it =D. Assuming MazdaUSA requires people who want to take the buy back offers to sign a contract that guarantees said customer will not purchase a 20XX model RX-8, they WILL have grounds to seek damages against said consumer if they desire.

Stopped by the dealer and he said that he had not heard anything about being black-balled from an RX-8. Once again not even pre-law for me but it seems that it wouldn't hold water in court. Isn't that called black-mail? "We won't give you your money back if you don't agree to not buy another RX-8." I can see the headlines now :"Mazda sues customer for buying a Mazda".

Thanks for the insight, maybe you could bring this up in one of your classes. :)

Originally posted by Lock &amp; Load
For those of you who are LEASING your rx8 and are thinking of selling back to mazda for whatever reason , have you considered who is going to pay for the EARLY PAY OUT PENALTY PAYMENT on your lease ???Since I have no intention of returning mine, my decision to lease is looking better than ever. Chances are that the residuals will be revised downwards on this news, or that cars will be available second-hand for less than my buyout figure three years from now, in which case I'll walk away from mine and pick one up on the open market if something else hasn't caught my eye in the meantime. If this does effect resale values, folks that have financed may find themselves upside-down for a while longer than expected.

On a side note, it sure would be nice to come into this forum sometimes without having to walk through troll crap, but that's asking too much I guess." - shamus

here here!

its really terrible...

Uhhhhhhhhhh..?

Please. If Mazda was within five percent of advertised power THEY wouldn't be doing a thing because nothing would be wrong.

Come on people, quit trying to put a halo on Mazda's good intentions. Mazda has done nothing right except for making a fantastic car, offering a pre-order program, sending me a great book and coffee cup / thermos.

Everything else they touched has been done poorly.

Vince

Troll crap?

Uhhh. You both can bite me.

You are both trolling in my post.


Vince

Originally posted by P00Man
On a side note, it sure would be nice to come into this forum sometimes without having to walk through troll crap, but that's asking too much I guess." - shamus

here here!

its really terrible...

POOMan, for once I agree with you and admit I was over the top on some of my comments. I was about to delete it until Vincy started saying this was his post. I didn't realize these threads were so territorial. So I'll leave my troll post as an enduring memorial.

wow, someone agrees with me? i thought i was generally hated by all ;)

i personally dont REALLY mind the post, the the thing about owning threads is a little wierd...

edit:
actually, i dont mind any of you posts on this thread at all

Uhg.

Personally, if people want to return their 8's it's all better for me. I'd be more than happy to grab all the attention from other drivers and passengers alike on the road.

Originally posted by compaddict
Troll crap?

Uhhh. You both can bite me.

You are both trolling in my post.


Vince

Yes Vince - TROLL CRAP - since every post here isn't about the thread starter (hope that's ok with you) it wasn't directed at you, but rather at the other knobs who have nothing but negative to say about the company or the car etc... they know who they are. If it hit too close to home, sorry, I should have been specific that it wasn't you I was talking about.

Buuuuutt - we're trolling your post?

Wake up, you posted your rant about Mazda and some of us have responded. I think you are being childish wanting to rip off the company and unrealistic in your expectations. You're ticked off (and rightly so to some extent) but when this situation is put in perspective I think you're overreacting and are being rightly critisized for being hypocritical if you buy another RX. Personally as a Miata owner I'm surprised that you value 9 hp to the extect you do when the performance of the car has not been altered.

Now, quit being a drama queen.

Originally posted by ZoomZoomH


ok this post is just a plain cheap shot at Mazda as a whole when they're dealing with a not so good situation :mad:

Simply saying that Mazda has a poor reputation for quality is not a cheap shot...its a fact. Sorry the truth hurts sometimes.

And yes...Ford does own Mazda.

Originally posted by Shamus
Don't worry that Mazda is within it's rights to ignore the whole thing since the power issue is less than 5%...

That's a rather hopeful statement given the present ratio of speculation to fact we are forced to accept. I think it's reasonable to assume that Mazda would have done nothing if the true HP rating was within 5% of 248hp. It's more likely that the actual rating is lower (i.e. closer to the ratings the dyno's have been showing) and that Mazda chose to update the HP claims with a figure that gives them the most wiggle room while exposing them to the least public embarassment.

Oh I'm sorry you meant "troll" out of context to your response to my post! Mybad!

Funny though that the same people that started using the word "troll" don't really answer or respond to my original comments but instead offer deep insight to the real reason that I'm returning my car.

I don't want to give smart people the wrong impression of my intent or feelings. As a rule in the RW dealing with morons is a fact of life and we all have to do it. I deal with them when I have to but most of the time I will go out of my way to avoid them.

On the Internet it's real hard to avoid interaction so I tend to be a little short fused with pea brains.

Vince
(always happy and always smiling!)

If the "can't return one and buy another" rule really is enforceable somehow, I would put a new one in my wife's name if I let MazdaUSA buy this one back. Or maybe she would want to drive it all the time herself . . . .

Originally posted by bobm
If the "can't return one and buy another" rule really is enforceable somehow, I would put a new one in my wife's name if I let MazdaUSA buy this one back. Or maybe she would want to drive it all the time herself . . . .

Same thing I was thinking here. Just use another name.

Anyways, I doubt any dealer is going to turn away a willing buyer - no matter how many RX-8s you have returned. The dealer doesn't lose anything out of this deal, MazdaUSA does.

Originally posted by SupraL
And yes...Ford does own Mazda. Ford owns a 35% stake in Mazda. That's a bit different then owning them outright, like Jaguar.

---jps

Originally posted by bobm
If the "can't return one and buy another" rule really is enforceable somehow, I would put a new one in my wife's name if I let MazdaUSA buy this one back. Or maybe she would want to drive it all the time herself . . . . exactly, many ways around it.

Originally posted by compaddict
Oh I'm sorry you meant "troll" out of context to your response to my post! Mybad!

That's ok, I guess the fact that I said "On a side note" before I made the statement about trolls wasn't clear enough, and I've already apologized for not being clearer. You or anyone else may re-read what I said as it hasn't been edited.

Funny though that the same people that started using the word "troll" don't really answer or respond to my original comments

My first response to "your thread" did actually get into the issues you brought up but in an apparantly overly complex and sarcastic way so I'll try to be clearer:

Your generalization that Mazda has done nothing right but the car itself may actually have merit. Have they loused up some of the excecution? Sure. Is it inexcusable that there have been a few bumps in the road? I don't think so. Frankly the docks fiasco seems to point to a possibility that this was a FUBAR after the fact rather than a conspiracy.

Your point about them eating a loss and learning a valuable lesson is wishful thinking, me-thinks. They will sell that car and make profit on it. Plus they won't have to reimburse your dealer for the servicing or pay you the $500. And if you buy another one, you just gave them even more profit.

Now about Mazda telling the truth in a timely manner - do you believe that they knew all along what was going on and decided to lie about it or stall, or do you believe that they took too long to respond officially and come up with an appropriate compensation for buyers... or both?

If you want to assume that Mazda knew about the problem in the first place and was trying to hide it then yes, they should be tarred and feathered. I don't assume this to be the case and so our opinions are obviously different. I don't see any reason that they would stall and let the uproar gain momentum. I certainly don't believe that they knew that the car would be under-powered months ago, this would be as logical as shooting one's toes off.

I also don't view their response or response time as unnexpected. I think that for a company of Mazda and Ford's size to get the engineers to perform the testing necessary, get the lawyers to evaluate and sign-off on the letter and compensation takes time and a few weeks is not that long in Corporation days, but again, if you assume that they knew about all this stuff ahead of time then they are rats anyway you slice the bread.

Of course Mazda screwed up, and just because some of us don't think they did it intentionally doesn't mean we are putting a halo around their heads. I'm really ticked that they didn't catch this at the docks ifthat's where it happened. Mazda doesn't need this and that's why I doubt it was intentional. If they really do damage themselves badly, then some of my favorite cars could be gone - and that sucks.

I'm not going to get into personal insults with you Vince, it's a bit lazy really. I will say this and it assumes some things about you - you bought this freakin car because it has a sweet engine, great handling, awesome brakes, room for four in a pinch, and a beautiful body. All of those attributes are still there. You're view of Mazda as a company played a part too probably, and that has been tarnished. But if you love the car, take their $500, free service, and write them one hell of a letter.

- Shamus

Originally posted by SupraL


Simply saying that Mazda has a poor reputation for quality is not a cheap shot...its a fact. Sorry the truth hurts sometimes.

And yes...Ford does own Mazda.

reputation based on whose opinion??? yours? boy that sure convinced me! :o

most major trade publications are giving equal, if not better quality ratings to Mazda compared to Toyota and Honda.

lacking in quality? hmm, both my Protege and FC have been doing fine, no quality problem here...

what if you did not get a fair price in the first place....
it almost seems like Mazda could keep the dishonest dealers in line with something like this.... fair deal, will keep their cars....


what if the last car in town was at the last place anyone wanted to buy the car from....
because they were talking advantage of the buyers.... the new car rush.......and overcharging in some cases making as much as mazda themselvs...

then you can go to an honest dealer and get a fair price no questions.....

If thats possible *if you can buy back the 8 after once returned.... >>?
Is that clause for sure?? were poeple actaully stoped from buying a mieata back once returned? I heard that they were way overpriced when they first came out as well..


http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9477

Ford owns a 35% stake in Mazda. That's a bit different then owning them outright, like Jaguar.

Correction, Ford owns a CONTROLLING stake of Mazda; meaning Ford is the largest single stock holder in the company.

I not start to pay on my car... I am finished... paid cash----
even had the check made out to the wrong dealer..
Had to scratch it out and initial it

does anyone think that the dealer can charge me for stuff if I return , like if they find a scratch or something...

They are real jerks, I would not put it past them, I was working with like 4 honest dealers.. but they just did not have any cars left.... the place I got my car from had 3 rx-8s on the floor, figure it out.

Originally posted by ToRX-8orToZ


Correction, Ford owns a CONTROLLING stake of Mazda; meaning Ford is the largest single stock holder in the company.


sorry but --- CONTROLLING stake could be 20% or less
that is ---if no one owns more then you at the time.....

just FYI

Originally posted by ZoomZoomH


reputation based on whose opinion??? yours? boy that sure convinced me! :o

most major trade publications are giving equal, if not better quality ratings to Mazda compared to Toyota and Honda.

lacking in quality? hmm, both my Protege and FC have been doing fine, no quality problem here...

Comparing Mazda quality with Toyota quality is quiet humorous. Please show me some articles and statistics illustrating your point....

Wow...look how far Mazda is down the latest two JD Power Quality surveys.....


http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003050bfull.gif


http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2003028bfull.gif

I just drove a Q35c and it isn't one third the car the RX-8 is. The RX-8 is as close to perfect as I could expect in a car. I think my next one will have the NAV.


Vince

sorry but --- CONTROLLING stake could be 20% or less

Right; but it is still CONTROLLING stake. So long as the remaining shares of a company can not be levereged against you, you have run of the company; as Ford basically has complete control of Mazda.

Originally posted by TXs are Rex ate
what if you did not get a fair price in the first place....
it almost seems like Mazda could keep the dishonest dealers in line with something like this.... fair deal, will keep their cars....


I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. "Fair deal" implies they cheated you somehow. "Dishonest" definitely means that. Did you not know the price of the car, including markup, before you bought it? Did you not have the right and the opportunity to walk away from the deal right then and there? If they cheated you somehow, take 'em to court. If you willingly, with eyes wide open, went into a bad deal, then shame on you. Dealers do not control the price; buyers do. In fact, we have ultimate control... we can walk right out the door to the next dealer down the road. One can only assume you thought the car was worth what you paid, otherwise why did you pay it? Don't come whining now that somehow you got cheated.

Sorry to rant like this, I know you wanted the car but sheesh c'mon, the time to exercise your rights as a consumer was before turning over your hard-earned cash.

I was very happy with my dealer. I suppose they lose any money they made if my car is returned, or would MazdaUSA reimburse them? Anybody know about this?

I'm not sure how the whole Mazda/Ford contolling thing works, but I do know they share technology, parts, platforms, etc to reduce costs. See the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute. Or the Mazda MX-6/Ford Probe.

Originally posted by Shamus
My first response to "your thread" did actually get into the issues you brought up but in an apparantly overly complex and sarcastic way so I'll try to be clearer:

Your point about them eating a loss and learning a valuable lesson is wishful thinking, me-thinks. They will sell that car and make profit on it. Plus they won't have to reimburse your dealer for the servicing or pay you the $500. And if you buy another one, you just gave them even more profit.

I also don't view their response or response time as unnexpected. I think that for a company of Mazda and Ford's size to get the engineers to perform the testing necessary, get the lawyers to evaluate and sign-off on the letter and compensation takes time and a few weeks is not that long in Corporation days, but again, if you assume that they knew about all this stuff ahead of time then they are rats anyway you slice the bread.

I'm not going to get into personal insults with you Vince, it's a bit lazy really. I will say this and it assumes some things about you - you bought this freakin car because it has a sweet engine, great handling, awesome brakes, room for four in a pinch, and a beautiful body. All of those attributes are still there. You're view of Mazda as a company played a part too probably, and that has been tarnished. But if you love the car, take their $500, free service, and write them one hell of a letter.

Thanks, Shamus. I couldn't have said it better or with less cynicism than you did. Of course, no one's happy about the "missing" horsepower. But does anyone think Mazda planned things this way and/or thought no one would notice. No, of course not. They screwed up somehow, got the engineers and bigwigs together in record time, prepared a remedy and getting letters in the mail all within a month. Pretty damn good, I think considering the knee-jerk reaction typically is corporate denial. I didn't see that for an instant with Mazda. There's a whole nuther thread in this forum complementing MNAO on how they're dealing with this snafu. I'm more in tune with that line of thinking.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe


then shame on you. Dealers do not control the price; buyers do. In fact, we have ultimate control... we can walk right out the door to the next dealer down the road. .

Sorry to rant like this, I know you wanted the car but sheesh c'mon, the time to exercise your rights as a consumer was before turning over your hard-earned cash.

that was my point , walk over to the next dealership and wait 30 more days... do you think it is honest to try to mark up a car 5000.00 over MSRP because you are the only one who had cars left...... that does not seem honest in my book,

and if you think it is, you might be a car dealer, lol,
this will fix them good, I think Mazda boys over on the other side of the world know that... lol do you not see it?

and no one in their right mind would return a car , if they got MSRP or less
with all the free stuff mazda if offering...... that would be crazy....

Originally posted by TXs are Rex ate
do you think it is honest to try to mark up a car 5000.00 over MSRP because you are the only one who had cars left...... that does not seem honest in my book,

Nah, I'm not a dealer thank goodness. Maybe it's a question of semantics. I think markups are crappy, and a poor business plan, but not inherently dishonest. After all, the price is right there on the sticker (including markup), the customer has all the facts available to make an informed decision. It's not dishonesty, but it is contempt for one's own customers. In my mind, not a way to win loyalty nor maximize long-term profitability.

Man some of you must be right wing republicans the way you sling bullshit excuses for Mazda.

All of this bullshit conjecture about how Mazda did such a great job and the only two facts that we know is that our RX-8's are down some HP and Mazda might be making us some sort of offer to help remedy the deficiency.

Mazda has lost my loyalty and trust as a customer and everything that goes with it.

As punishment they can have there a used RX-8 and give me the means back to get a brand new shiny one.

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
Man some of you must be right wing republicans the way you sling bullshit excuses for Mazda.

All of this bullshit conjecture about how Mazda did such a great job and the only two facts that we know is that our RX-8's are down some HP and Mazda might be making us some sort of offer to help remedy the deficiency.

Mazda has lost my loyalty and trust as a customer and everything that goes with it.

As punishment they can have there a used RX-8 and give me the means back to get a brand new shiny one.

Man, what is your major problem? oh, I remember: You think you "own" this thread. Sorry if everyone doesn't fall in line with your jackboot mentality even if we've jacked "your" thread. You still haven't explained, despite repeated requests, why it is you will buy another 8 when "Mazda has lost my loyalty and trust as a customer and everything that goes with it." (yes, per your predilection, you're gonna say I'm quoting you wrong.) Or how exactly buying a second '8 from them is gonna teach them a lesson. Stop telling me I'm quoting your wrong and just answer the damn questions. Why will you buy from a company you no longer trust, and how you gonna teach them a lesson when you're buying another 8 from them? And take a chill pill man; your drawers are too tight.

Originally posted by Randy
Selling due to:
Soft suspension compared to S2000
Poor gas mileage compared to S2000 (14 RX8 vs 19)
Burning oil smell when starting car
Trunk that has too small of an opening
No power at redline
So-so AC

I will miss the styling and door design though. EVO, here I come.

Did you bother to test drive the car before you bought it?
Did you bother to check out the boot prior to purchase?
And you obviosly know nothing about Rotaries, they all burn oil!
Did you buy an RX-8 because of the a/c? Don't think so!
Thats all part of owning a rotary. If you can't appreciate it maybe
you should go and buy a Honda. Let someone who can appreciate
your car own it!

Originally posted by ken830


I believe that this is EXACTLY how most owners feel... But it seems like some people feel the need to defend Mazda no matter what wrong-doings they commit. It's not a mistake... They must have known how much power the cars put out....

Brand-loyalty is pretty strong with the RX crowd, and for good reason... But nothing can really excuse Mazda from doing what they have done... And we should be mad at Mazda for messing up with our beloved RX-8's reputation! The whole car enthusiasts community will know about this...

LOL, a new member and a member (Skyline Maniac) that doesn't own an RX-8 are two of the few sensible people on the forum. What does that say about the fanboys?

I am considering selling my car back too. I will wait until my letter comes in the mail and contact Mazda about the situation. I want what I paid for and if I don't get what I paid for, I want my money and time back.

8_wannabe:

Get back on your meds man! I know you think you don't need them anymore and your doing better without them..

Jousting with unarmed trolls..


Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
8_wannabe:

Get back on your meds man! I know you think you don't need them anymore and your doing better without them..

Jousting with unarmed trolls..


Vince

Once again Vincey avoids the question, which means he hasn't got a freakin' clue. C'mon boy, you can do it... easy now... tell us in clear, plain, logical terms: How does buying another 8 teach Mazda a lesson? And why would you do so when you so clearly distrust the company? Hey, I'm not attacking your position in case you haven't noticed; I'm just asking for an explanation for what on the surface seems to be inconsistent statements. If the only way you can respond is personal attacks you're just broadcasting to the world that you haven't got a clue. Sorry to wake you up to this uncomfortable fact, but there really are a lot of intelligent people on this forum that respect intellect. Why don't you surprise us all and show some?

Uhg. You win "Rush"!

I'm not worthy of your intellect!


Vince

Finally you've gotten one right compaddict, you're not worthy and Rush is a kick-ass band...

8_wannabe,

I've given up trying to use logic on this guy... It's his thread remember (insert picture of South Park's Cartman here - 'Screw you guys, I'm going HOME!'

He's ignored any of the difficult questions and gets right in to mud slinging and insults.

I have better things to do with my time than to try to explain to him why he's being hypocritical, or why the earth is round, or how gravity works, or other difficult concepts. I will admit that the schrillness of the responses is getting kinda funny though.

Fuck both of you!

What difficult questions?

For those that have difficulty understanding (8_wannabe & Shamus if that isn't clear):

1. Mazda gets a used car back but pays for a new car (about a 4000 dollar estimated loss).

2. I get another brand new car of which I really, really like.

Clear enough?

Vince

That's enough now, this is going nowhere.

---jps