Alright, here's the skinny from E3 as I understand so far:

1 - Controller: No more boomerang. Dual Shock 2 is like the normal Dual Shock controller from the PS2 except it's wireless and has lateral motion sensing, pitch, yaw and roll. (THIS SOUNDS FAMILIAR.) Also, the Dual Shock 2 will not include any rumble feedback feature.

2 - Release Date: November 11 in the Japan. November 17 in the US. I vaguely recall a mention of simultaneous world-wide release, but this is close enough.

3 - Pricing: There will be two versions. A $499 version no one will want and a $599 version no one will be able to afford. (I CAN'T PLACE MY FINGER ON WHERE I'VE SEEN THIS BEFORE.)

4 - Versions:

PS3Core - 20GB Hard Drive, USB 2.0 Ports, Ethernet card, Bluetooth 2.0, AV Multi Out, Digital Optical Out

PS3Platinum - 60GB Hard Drive, everything the core has, memory stick, SD, compact flash, 802.11 b/g wireless, HDMI Out

what about availability...can i buy 20 and make ten grand on ebay...or am i better off just getting one?

I don't know if anyone would even want it for that price...

2million units slated for worldwide launch.
4million units before the end of calendar year 2006.

So, assume half that.

man, that's expensive... but when thinking about it, game consoles became more than just that. It's like a complete multimedia package.

Only if Blu-ray doesn't go the way of Beta-max. Unfortunately, the Playstation 2's DVD playback ability wasn't stellar. There is a good chance a standalone Blu-ray player will be much better than the Playstation 3's drive when it comes to movie playback. I have a PS2, but I own a DVD player too.

I detest these stupid format wars. You've got huge parties on each side so it'll never be settled.

From what I understand, we won't see dual format drives like with +/- R

Yeah, the technology is quite different. I think Pioneer released a Blu-ray burner that will burn and read normal DVDs as well, but cannot read or burn CDs.

Lame, lame, and lame...now I am definitley only getting a Wii - $250 baby...oh yeah!

Stupid Sony and their overpriced crap. No HDMI, wifi, or card reader on the core model? and still $499? $100 more than my 360 Premium...Bwhahahahaha! And people thought Microsoft was crazy for its pricing structure...

You'll buy it. Trust me.

Yeah, I don't think so. I didn't even buy a PS2. I did buy an overpriced PSP and sold it a month later on eBay. I have my xbox 360 Premium / My NES and Gamecube (soon to be replaced by the Wii) / My Nintendo DS to get my videogame fix. I don't need no stinkin' PS3!

Joe

ya this was a pretty stupid thing sony could of done. It has NO HDMI for the lower system. Which means the blu-ray is pretty useless. Once they release the DRM crap on blu-ray the system will degrade the quality of the picture if you have no HDMI. Bad bad!!

I was really hoping for a better system, no vibration instead you have a rip off of the WII controller (it's not even as functional either!) .. I'm glad I jumped on the MS bandwagon.. 360 is looking a lot better now


MrJynx

U sure that the right release date i heard on cnn a couple month ago they were having major prblems and it will be delayed till after dec.

This is straight from the announcements made at E3. Take it as you will.

For 1 PS3 Core, I could buy 2 Wiis... Oh the things I would do with two Wiis...

U sure that the right release date i heard on cnn a couple month ago they were having major prblems and it will be delayed till after dec.

I think they'll meet the release date, but they'll suffer with huge shortages just like the 360.

I can almost guarentee the issue will be the Blu-Ray and the CELL. there is no way they can get over 4million units by december..

Two Wiis are better than one.

Any game titles mentioned?

Even if they came out with GT5 with damage I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't fork over that kind of money.

oh fcuk!, so that means i have to get the 360 now?.....but sony has more games than xbox, like GTA san andreas, thats an A+ game right there...

Ummmmmmmmmmm...San Andreas has been out on Xbox. And it is a backwards compatible Xbox 360 game. What are you smoking?

I think San Andreas is the last GTA game that Sony had a contract for exclusive release. I'm fairly certain Rockstar will do concurrent releases from now on. Unless someone pays a ton of money for another contract.

All I know is Ive had a reservation for PS3 since January... Im number two on the list, and I will be camping out in front of the Specs to get mine. As far as I know though, my friend and I (the manager of Specs) are the only people with reservations in Miami so far because of the delayed release.
Im putting Nov. 17 on the calander though, and Ill be saving my pennies!

Im putting Nov. 17 on the calander though, and Ill be saving my pennies!

You might want to trade in your car, haha

i always assumed the PS3 would be the next console i bought, but the Wii is looking better and better. or maybe i'll just stick to PC...

Pitch, yaw and roll. It's great to see Sony still works hard on originality.


Even if it is someone else's originality.

Kinda like the rumble feature that Nintendo first added. Now it's everywhere.

I'll get a Wii, especially since they are boasting the Sega and TG 16 games on them.

PC4Lyfe.

i'll collect them all since i dont play into this console war nonsense. Im like switzerland...i play all sides.

PC4Lyfe.

yea i feel more and more like i'll end up a purely PC gamer soon (or am I already?), but certain games still play best on consoles. When my friend comes over we play Soul Calibur 3 on my PS2. Then again he also brings his laptop over for Source or DoTA.

Pitch, yaw and roll. It's great to see Sony still works hard on originality.


Even if it is someone else's originality.

Kinda like the rumble feature that Nintendo first added. Now it's everywhere.

I'll get a Wii, especially since they are boasting the Sega and TG 16 games on them.
"Sony's Phil Harrison even went so far as to tell us that 'rumble was last generation, movement is this generation.'"

From Gamespot. Totally, making it sound like Sony is pioneering the movement feature.

yea i feel more and more like i'll end up a purely PC gamer soon (or am I already?), but certain games still play best on consoles. When my friend comes over we play Soul Calibur 3 on my PS2. Then again he also brings his laptop over for Source or DoTA.
I need to get back into DotA. My new power supply should be in tomorrow. Then, pre-build starts. :D:

"Sony's Phil Harrison even went so far as to tell us that 'rumble was last generation, movement is this generation.'"

From Gamespot. Totally, making it sound like Sony is pioneering the movement feature.
think about it this way imitation is the highest form of flattery. Trust me people would bitch if sony decided to stay behind and not change its controller very much. (and before anyone says PS1 dual shock and PS2 dual shock are the same..they aren't the PS2 version has pressure sensitive buttons)

think about it this way imitation is the highest form of flattery. Trust me people would bitch if sony decided to stay behind and not change its controller very much. (and before anyone says PS1 dual shock and PS2 dual shock are the same..they aren't the PS2 version has pressure sensitive buttons)

yea, i'd rather Sony try to 'keep up' rather than not include any innovation in the new system.

btw, in regards to the whole pitch and yaw movement controller: can a controller now be held and used as an 'air steering wheel'? i have not kept up with console news, so im betting this has already been discussed.

That would be sweet, but, without any feedback it would be difficult to use.

Luftwaffle: I watched that animation that you took your avatar from, i think you gave a link in some other thread. Good Stuff.

That would be sweet, but, without any feedback it would be difficult to use.

yea, thats a good point. i actually know a guy who developed a new controller geared towards racing games with a more intuitive steering feel. to my knowledge he hasnt taken his concept to show anywhere, but it was very good.

:D:

Yes, in theory, it could be held up to be used like a steering wheel/flight yolk.

*hugs his PS2 & GT4*

$600 is probably better spent on upgrading the home theatre receiver/amplifier :D

I hope they improve on the pressure sensitive buttons, and make them truly analog. There's really only 3 states to the PS2 buttons: not pressed, pressed, or pressed so hard it hurts your finger.

Yeah, I remember them toting that as a feature. I know of 2 games that actually makes use of it. GT and The Bouncer. It was alright in GT3, but it made The Bouncer really damn frustrating...

^^worked swimmingly on GTA:SA

What did it do in SA? I just hit the button and ran people over.

What did it do in SA? I just hit the button and ran people over.
same thing in gt controlled your speed and braking. also running if i remember correctly, and how far you threw.

Washington Post E3 blog:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/posttech/


The games looked pretty fun -- the cool thing with the Wii, of course, is the controller. Legendary Nintendo game designer Shigeru Miyamoto came out on stage in a tuxedo and started waving the controllers around for a game that lets you conduct an orchestra. They also had some kind of lottery or contest that allowed fans to go up on stage and play a tennis game. The fans had never played it before but seemed to pick it up pretty quickly.


a orchestra conducting game, how about that eh???

same thing in gt controlled your speed and braking. also running if i remember correctly, and how far you threw.
I remember in the first game or in Vice City that it was kinda annoying. It kept saying press harder to throw farther. Ends up, it's not entirely correct. It should actually say, press longer to throw harder. I jammed the button down but let go quickly and the grenade hit my toes... =T

When running, I always used the tapping trick to run farther. XD

I played Call of Duty 2 and Project Gotham 3 nonstop when I bought my 360 in the beginning of January. It took me weeks to find a premium package and fortunately my friend who works at a toy store was able to reserve me one. I bought my 8 in February, and I've probably played video games only twice since.

Defense of the Ancients pwns nubs. That is the DOTA you are referring too I assume?

Ehh, I've tried to keep my interest going with the PS3, but after hearing that they're going to encourage product placement in games AND charge $200 more than the 360, it's looking like the Wii is going to be my first and only next gen system for quite a while. I'd say I'm going to get a 360, but the current XBox library has really left me disappointed, thus making me wary of the new incarnation. It's a shame too, since the PS2 was easily my favorite system of the previous generation.

Oh, also - ENOUGH WITH THE FREAKING DUAL SHOCK!!!! Those awkwardly placed dual thumbsticks are a joke compared to the other controllers.

Yes, that's the DotA I'm talking about. My med school friend plays it religiously as rainbow_unicorn. He's got as skewed an outlook toward online games as I do.

I'll wait for prices to drop to $299 or less.

It's truly idiotic for a manufacturer to price the unit at $599, when they're going to make their real money off the game sale royalties anyways.

PS2 foevah!!!

does anyone have any word on the pricing of the games themselves? Wii or PS3?

Yes, that's the DotA I'm talking about. My med school friend plays it religiously as rainbow_unicorn. He's got as skewed an outlook toward online games as I do.

I play Centaur Chief/Warrior but I'm still n00b.
I got back into CS and have neglected my DotA training.

I'll wait for prices to drop to $299 or less.

It's truly idiotic for a manufacturer to price the unit at $599, when they're going to make their real money off the game sale royalties anyways.

PS2 foevah!!!
Unless of course the content of the platform costs more than 599, which it does. These aren't just game consoles anymore. People need to get that out of their heads.

PS3 is an overpriced rehash. Dual shock is uncomfortable as hell.

Wii is fresh and cheap. You can point with it and move it around in space rather than just tilting it. It has rumble and a speaker inside the controller for sounds that would be closer to you. There will be other controller accesories that serve various purposes to make games even better. Microphone? Camera? Who knows. Sounds great to me.

And you guys shouldn't post $250 for it - no official word on the price.

PS3 is an overpriced rehash. Dual shock is uncomfortable as hell.

Wii is fresh and cheap. You can point with it and move it around in space rather than just tilting it. It has rumble and a speaker inside the controller for sounds that would be closer to you. There will be other controller accesories that serve various purposes to make games even better. Microphone? Camera? Who knows. Sounds great to me.

And you guys shouldn't post $250 for it - no official word on the price.

Im not sure about you but Dual Shock has been welcome by many many countries. its either your hand is big or too small.

Dual Shock fit me just right.

and the new PS3 controller has motion sensor in it. I really want to try it out.

I wish you happy tilting.

Dual shock is comfy as long as you're not trying to use both joysticks. The placement for those things really can't get much worse. What's even more frustrating about them is the fact that it could probably all be fixed simply by swapping the positions of the left stick and the D-pad. It's a pretty solid controller, it's just getting outdone by the newer and more ergonomical stuff.

More like PlagiariseStation 3, amirite?

More like PlagiariseStation 3, amirite?

Yup, rumble pack all over again.

Unless of course the content of the platform costs more than 599, which it does. These aren't just game consoles anymore. People need to get that out of their heads.

This is true, it was reported that Microsoft was losing $150 for every 360 system sold. These companies actually make their profits from game licenses and system accessories. Microsoft was selling the Wireless USB adapter for the 360 for $100, and they designed it so that generic wireless adapters did not work. $600 for a system does seem a little steep though but I think this price will go down.

The last game console I actually owned was a Nintendo64 (yeah a WHILE ago); anyways I remember saving up and getting the FIRST one in my area a day ahead of the schedualed sales, it was worth it and I kept it for a year or so, I have fond memories of many late nights playing Goldeneye with friends. After that console I lost interest and have done my gaming on PC's exclusively.

I realize not everyone has about 1000 dollars to setup a nice gaming rig, but the way prices are going with these new consoles I dont see it out of the realm of possibility of people saying "screw it" and just taking the time to build a nice PC that can do so much more. (jabbing fun at the PS3)

I was almost tempted to buy an Xbox360, but the shortages stopped me. The one thing that made me NOT want to get it is going to the store for things and running into people that acted like they were going to die if they didn't get this console.

The PS3 is clearly aimed at the serious gamer; it's not a "kid's" game console anymore. Serious gamers spend $600 without batting an eye on their PC; high-end video cards can cost that much by themselves.

It's all about the gaming experience; if the PS3 graphics are motion-picture quality; the movement is smooth without glitches; and the games are entertaining; Sony won't be able to make enough of them.

When the PS2 came out the price was also bashed as being "ridiculous" because it was being compared to the PS1 which was available for under $100. I heard the same "no way am I going to pay that much..." comments back then, but the PS2 was a runaway hit and Sony could not make enough of them. The PS3 is deja-vu all over again. Wait 'till you see the next Gran Turismo, Ace Combat, Silent Hill on the PS3....in Dolby Surround Sound on a wide-screen hi-def tv....it'll be "$600?? I can always make another $600....who has them in stock?"

Of course the PS3 will sell. Does that mean it's good? No. The only thing that this system does is make graphics better. Oh wait, and they ripped off Nintendo so that it does a little bit of what Wii does. I have a gaming PC that puts out better graphics than PS3 - and so do a lot of people. Why bother?

I think it's going to take a few years of library build up, price drops, and getting through my current backlog of games before I'll pop for either a PS3 or a 360. The Wii, on the other hand, will probably be much more accessably priced, and offer something new, not just more of the same with better graphics.

If sony could have came in at 360 prices, I would have probably picked one up as soon as I could, but now I'll wait and see.

I don't spend 600 dollars on my PC without batting an eye and I consider myself a pretty serious PC gamer. I would just like to point this out. I prefer getting balance between price and performance. Graphics for the most part stopped concerning me a long time ago. Dance Dance Revolution, Katamari Damacy, and Super Smash Bros. proved to me that killer graphics aren't necessary in a fun game.

I don't spend 600 dollars on my PC without batting an eye and I consider myself a pretty serious PC gamer. I would just like to point this out. I prefer getting balance between price and performance. Graphics for the most part stopped concerning me a long time ago. Dance Dance Revolution, Katamari Damacy, and Super Smash Bros. proved to me that killer graphics aren't necessary in a fun game.

i am also fairly serious about PC gaming as it is my main source of at home entertainment. Just to reinforce Luftwaffle's statement, $600 IS a lot of money, i believe, to most gamers so it doesnt seem valid to say that it is an amount that gets thrown around without much thought. When I need an upgrade I usually scour the internet (fatwallet.com!!!!!) for the best deal and value before buying. ANyway, i forgot where i was going with this one sooo...

i'll still consider buying a PS3 well after reviews have come out and there are several games that look like it might be worth my while.

Can you hook your computer up to a big ass TV and surround system in your living room and play games? I guess your computer would have to be nearby so you have the keyboard and whatnot. But it can be done right? it would play in HD too right?

Not to say I dont love PC gaming (Im a computer animator for christs sake) but there is no comparison to console gaming.
Last time I checked me and 3 of my buddies cant sit at the same computer/screen and play a multiplayer game with 4 keyboards and mouses.
A console CAN (now) multiplayer like PCs do, over the internet.
Thats the big diff. for me.

There are many different levels on which PC and console cant compair to eachother, but when it comes down to it a console is a computer dedicated entirely to graphic intensity and speed. A PC rarely is (unless you know what your doing). And for the public market, the console is the safe and easy choice.

Can you hook your computer up to a big ass TV and surround system in your living room and play games? I guess your computer would have to be nearby so you have the keyboard and whatnot. But it can be done right? it would play in HD too right?
Yep, very easily. From what I understand, "HD" is just the number of lines outputted on the TV format. My computers can handle a resolution 1920x1200 easily. The vertical resolution (1200) vaguely translates to the lines on a TV. So, with a little video converter box, we could change the 480, 768, 1024 and 1200 vertical resolutions of a computer into the 480p, 720p, and 1080p for HD. Someone please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this.

Also, you can get a wireless mouse and keyboard if you really want to.

My friend isn't around, but he basically did the math to prove that from 10 or so feet away, there is no difference between 1080p and 720p. I'll have to remember to ask him tomorrow.

Not to say I dont love PC gaming (Im a computer animator for christs sake) but there is no comparison to console gaming.
Last time I checked me and 3 of my buddies cant sit at the same computer/screen and play a multiplayer game with 4 keyboards and mouses.
A console CAN (now) multiplayer like PCs do, over the internet.
Thats the big diff. for me.

There are many different levels on which PC and console cant compair to eachother, but when it comes down to it a console is a computer dedicated entirely to graphic intensity and speed. A PC rarely is (unless you know what your doing). And for the public market, the console is the safe and easy choice.
Yeah, playing in a room on a machine with 3 other friends right there is a lot different from playing with other people over the internets. Personally, I like a lanparty setup the best. 4 player console FPS leads to screen hacking. XD

But, games like Super Smash Bros. just wouldn't be the same on a PC.

I'm done with Sony. It's Wii all the way for me.

Wii = Lightsaber Swinging Goodness. :rock:

Dude, I so want to play the cooking game. I will fry up the rice then take the hot pan and smack my assistant in the face with it because he is dumb and a n00b. Then, I will take my potato peeler and peel a potato with it and throw it at the head waiter because he is a n00b and dumb. Then, I will cut up some fish with my knife and then commit seppuku because the patrons are hungry and I have dishonored my cooking ancestors. XD

I saw the Red Steel trailer. It looks really cool.

Dual shock is uncomfortable as hell.This is the honestly the first time i've ever heard someone complain about the Playstation controllers.

-hS

I complain about them all the time. They're made for midget hands. I like the original Xbox controller, not that controller S shit which is again made for midget hands. :D:

Man, I can't use the big XBox controller. It's like I'm holding a Grizzle Bear. I like the S controller and the Dual Shock is alright. My favorite is still the Gamecube controller though.

i acutally like the PS2 dualshock controller... i use the 2 analog sticks for GT4, left one for steering, right one for throttle/brake, it's wonderful...

Man, I can't use the big XBox controller. It's like I'm holding a Grizzle Bear. I like the S controller and the Dual Shock is alright. My favorite is still the Gamecube controller though.
I have big grizzly bear hands. :D:

Yeah ladies, you heard right. ;) hahaha. Let's face it, no ladies will visit this thread :(

There are no ladies on the Internet. I should know, I'm not one of them. :crazy:

Also, all self-proclaimed ladies on the Internet are just guys pretending to be girls to get attention. I should know, I'm one of them. :crazy:

I have puny little hands, so I like the smaller controller. I did manage to beat Ninja Gaiden for the XBox using the big controller though. That was a workout on the fingers.

I bought the JDM Type S controller for the XBOX when they first went on sale. Thats how much i hated the bigger controllers.

-hS

Did you put a VTEC sticker on it? :D:

I wanted to put a "Powered by Honda" sticker on my computer. But, the ricer store wanted 10 bux for it. =T

I almost want to buy one of the old 1lb hamburger controllers. I thought fine control of FPS games was easier with my hand all opened up. I kind of wish they were still at least an offered accessory for those who want them.

Go buy a pack of Yu-gi-oh cards and trade some kid for a set.

I don't like the ps2 controller, or the ps1 for that matter. They weren't very comfortable my hands would cramp up and I just couldn't get used to the sensitivity of the sticks. I still think the original N64 controllers had the best analog feel to them, I also liked the gamecube. They are soft but not too soft and just the right amount of springiness.

My hands felt like they were in a natural position when I held the Gamecube controller. My thumb is always in a weird position when I used the dualshock analog.

I have big grizzly bear hands. :D:

Yeah ladies, you heard right. ;) hahaha. Let's face it, no ladies will visit this thread :(

hahaha!

i've never felt that the PS controllerd were uncomfortable. I'm 6'4" and have large hands, so I must be doing something right.

on the topic of surround sound and large screesn: a freind of mine bought a 42" (I think!) monitor/TV and has the surround sound thing set up. he uses it primarily for gaming, its pretty sweet.

Did you put a VTEC sticker on it? :D:No, of course not...

I put a VTECH sticker on it!!
(it was on sale)

When you add up all the pieces (and the cost) to make a "killer" PC gaming rig, it's more than $600. What Sony is offering here with the computing power, graphics power, sound, wireless, internet, blu-ray DVD, etc. is quite a bargain for $600. Just hook it up to your TV and start playing games at a look and performance level it would cost you much more to duplicate on a PC.

What others have pointed out about having 4 people on the couch playing at this performance level together is a huge benefit too. To do it with PC's requires 4 PC gaming rigs...with the PS3 just buy the gaming controllers and enjoy. For what the PS3 offers, it's a good deal at $600 I think compared to what it would cost to duplicate that with several PC gaming rigs networked together.

UT 07 ftw :) for pc that is P

^hell Yea

What's UT 07?

When you add up all the pieces (and the cost) to make a "killer" PC gaming rig, it's more than $600. What Sony is offering here with the computing power, graphics power, sound, wireless, internet, blu-ray DVD, etc. is quite a bargain for $600. Just hook it up to your TV and start playing games at a look and performance level it would cost you much more to duplicate on a PC.

What others have pointed out about having 4 people on the couch playing at this performance level together is a huge benefit too. To do it with PC's requires 4 PC gaming rigs...with the PS3 just buy the gaming controllers and enjoy. For what the PS3 offers, it's a good deal at $600 I think compared to what it would cost to duplicate that with several PC gaming rigs networked together.


yah i do agree with ths post. and wow gpu = to a geforce 7900. but then again nvidia did do the gpu for ps3.

What's UT 07?

Unreal torunamet 2007

No, of course not...

I put a VTECH sticker on it!!
(it was on sale)

i slapped a fragile sticker from the airport on my laptop...and i put a borla sticker on the gutters on the house.



i like the dual shock the best out of all controls...the 360 controller is giving it a run for its money though...thats also sweet.

I don't like the shoulder triggers on the 360 controller as much as I do the ones on the regular Xbox controllers. They don't have as long or as smooth a throw. It makes me sad when I think about driving games.

yo WTF is WII....sorry im lost

Wii is the official name of the Nintendo Revolution. See the Wii thread.

The new nintendo console. It was codenamed 'revolution'

You think you're quick luft? hmm, do ya? wanna take this to the flag pole at high noon?

I don't know about quick, but I reckon I'm pretty fast.

$600 seems within reasonable range for a PS3 for me. I was expecting something close to $800 with the all fancy annoucements etc... :sweatdrop If I have to get 2 consoles out of the 3 (PS3, 360, and Wii) I'd get PS3 and Wii. Since I'd enjoy all the A+ games (RPGs, Racing) with awesome graphics with the PS3, $600 for 4 years of playing doesn't sound like a bad investment. Also, FF series, even tho not the best in the few recent releases, always have a softspot in me. And Wii is good as a family/party friendly console. I can't imagine swinging a controller by myself in the family room tho, that loner feeling... :(

Yah 599.oo is a good price also. reason is, in near future 360 is going to offer a hd dvd drive as a addon for the current 360. so it pretty much cost as much as ps3 if you buy the addon.

My concern is that at $600, the PS3 won't achieve the sales to support all the nitch titles that made the PS2 so worthwhile. For me it's a definate wait and see.

$600? Hell no. I can get a Xbox 360 and Wii(assuming it's 200) for that $600.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/05/05/xbox360_to_get_hddvd_drive/

Los Angeles (CA) - Microsoft confirmed at E3 that it will be offering an external HD DVD drive for its Xbox 360 gaming console in the fourth quarter of this year. Compared to Sony's Blu-ray, HD DVD will offer similar functionality, but will be available for substantially less money, Microsoft promised.

The drive apparently will be making its way onto store shelves just in time to be available when Sony launches its Playstation 3 with integrated Blu-ray drive. The "new accessory" - about the size of a typical book - will be an external solution and connect to the Xbox 360 via USB cable, providing an "aftermarket" capability for HD video outputs and digital surround sound.



did not release details on the technical specifications of the drive, so we will have to wait at least one more day to find out whether the drive will be able to put out video in 1080p ("progressive") or if it will be limited to 1080i ("interlaced") - like the HD DVD players that have hit the market (and sold out immediately) a few weeks ago. During the presentation at E3, the company avoided any question on technical specifications, which led some to believe that the drive may be even limited to 720p. Performance, however, seems not to be the focus of Microsoft's HD strategy. In an article published on xbox.com, the company explains in great detail how much more "value" HD DVD offers over Blu-ray.

"With HD DVD, it is now becoming evident that the entire ecosystem - from players, drives, the discs, and manufacturing - is more economical than Blu-ray," the firm states. "Consumers and retailers can now see the immediate price gulf between HD DVD players and their upcoming competition. If you can find one of the new Toshiba HD DVD players they sell for as little as $499, whereas the expected starting price of Blu-ray players starts at $1000 and rises rapidly after that." Beyond player pricing, "HD DVD is cheaper for manufacturers to upgrade their facilities to produce HD DVD discs and there are lower licensing fees associated with HD DVD interactivity," Microsoft claims. "Ultimately, all of these advantages will lead to lower prices for consumers who choose HD DVD."

So, how much will the HD DVD drive for the Xbox 360 cost? "Stay tuned. We decided to save that good news for another day, but we're clearly out to make this an affordable option for Xbox 360 owners," the article on xbox.com says. However, it's no secret that Microsoft will have to stay competitive with Sony and that an Xbox 360 with HD DVD drive will have to cost exactly as much or less than a regular 20 GB Playstation 3 with Blu-ray drive ($499). And even Sony's brave pricing of $500 and $600 for its consoles does not leave much wiggle room for Microsoft and the HD DVD drive. Given the fact that the 20 GB Xbox 360 already rings in at $399, would indicate that Microsoft can only charge about $100 for the drive. And even then, a 1080i or 720p drive would not quite sound like a bargain, if compared to the PS3.

Join our discussion on E3 2006

There's more: Read all E3 2006 stories on TG Daily

The HD-DVD drive for the 360 will flop HARD. Look at Sega. Add-ons never sell.

The HD-DVD drive for the 360 will flop HARD. Look at Sega. Add-ons never sell.

that is what i think also. i know ppl say ps3 is way to expensive. but if xbox went with hd drive standard, it probably would of cost almost the same as ps3. im happy that ps3 made the next dvd tech as standard drive.

I think another thing that the HD-DVD drive has going against it is that gamers aren't going to be interested in dropping $100 just so their 360 can play the newest format of movies. Most people bought the 360 to play games exclusively and could probably care less about the HD-DVD add on. I wonder if this will serve as a foothold for the BluRay format to take off.

This generation of consoles is turning out to be very interesting, indeed.

I liked my Sega CD! ;)

I never got the 32x though or 6 games they released for it.

I did get the Gameboy thingy for the Gamecube, it's pretty nifty.

It really depends on how much they push it and how much content they deliver.

It has yet to be released, but the word was HD-DVD's could contain a normal DVD layer that could be read by existing players. If that's true they can publish an extended version and dumbed down versions of a game on a single disk. I guess that would work for people who don't want to upgrade and for people who do buy the add-on.

Who knows what they'll do. It has potential though.

If that's true they can publish an extended version and dumbed down versions of a game on a single disk. I guess that would work for people who don't want to upgrade and for people who do buy the add-on.

.


if thats possible, it seems like it might be a good idea. those who havent bought the Wii can still buy the new games, and might be more inclined to buy up to the Wii when they realize the games theyve been buying could be "that much better".

btw...does Wii = "why" or "wee"

"we"

if thats possible, it seems like it might be a good idea. those who havent bought the Wii can still buy the new games, and might be more inclined to buy up to the Wii when they realize the games theyve been buying could be "that much better".

btw...does Wii = "why" or "wee"

Wii = "we"

Supposedly because they're trying to reach out to everyone, including non-gamers. Hence, "we." (This is also why the controller looks like a TV remote - it's less intimidating to non-gamers)

The HD-DVD drive for the 360 will flop HARD. Look at Sega. Add-ons never sell.
PS2 Hard Drive, N64 DD (unreleased in US), PS2 broadband NIC.

Expensive add-ons don't sell. But, accessories are the cash crop of the game retailers.

Alright, here's the skinny from E3 as I understand so far:

1 - Controller: No more boomerang. Dual Shock 2 is like the normal Dual Shock controller from the PS2 except it's wireless and has lateral motion sensing, pitch, yaw and roll. (THIS SOUNDS FAMILIAR.) Also, the Dual Shock 2 will not include any rumble feedback feature.

2 - Release Date: November 11 in the Japan. November 17 in the US. I vaguely recall a mention of simultaneous world-wide release, but this is close enough.

3 - Pricing: There will be two versions. A $499 version no one will want and a $599 version no one will be able to afford. (I CAN'T PLACE MY FINGER ON WHERE I'VE SEEN THIS BEFORE.)

4 - Versions:

PS3Core - 20GB Hard Drive, USB 2.0 Ports, Ethernet card, Bluetooth 2.0, AV Multi Out, Digital Optical Out

PS3Platinum - 60GB Hard Drive, everything the core has, memory stick, SD, compact flash, 802.11 b/g wireless, HDMI Out
I dont know about that "no one will be able to afford" part. When I got my PS2 I payed $450. I cant wait till this bad boy comes out. I got 2 PS2's

Through my general perusing through several forums. I've found now 5 people who actually definitely plan on buying it. Obviously, I was giving a gross over-simplification, but you still have to admit 600 dollars is a lot of money.

Oh Hell yeah $600 bucks is a lot but come on man I got to have it. After all its a PS3 not a X-BOX ;)

Everytime I see someone type X-BOX in all caps like that, it makes me think of the crossbow from Half Life 2. Not only that, but I image Mr. Freeman shooting a little kid with it at a crosswalk (X or X-Crossing). Maybe a little sick, but meh, that is what comes to mind...

After seeing and reading about the new logitech wheel for the PS3 and Gran Turismo 5, there is no way that I will be able to live without Sony in my living room!

http://www.waffleware.com/images/PS3.gif

This whole thing should be interesting. Really I don't think Sony is going to do as well as they would like or some people expect. Right now I still think $500-$600 dollars is a little out of reach of the huge sales they are going to want! In all honesty while there are a decent amount of game developers for the PS3 if it doesn't reach a certain installed basis (as history actually shows) the developers will leave. Really I think the 360 at $400 is about at the peak of what your average person will be willing to spend. Look at the Sega Saturn and N64 as prime examples (after a certain stretch the games for them were primarily made by their makers). I may be wrong but I do think Sony's price point will hurt them! The Wii with the expectation to be the least expensive may be in the best position to catch the 360 with the lead it has.

Maybe my bias will show a little with this statement but I want Sony to fail on this one! I've always felt they overhyped their consoles (as far as hardware goes) and I don't think the PS3 will be any different. I'm willing to bet that the games that we will see when it launches will not be the leaps and bounds graphically over the other consoles that they say it will be. As with everything I could be wrong!

I know it's just speculation currently, but they also say that blue-ray disks are more expensive to make. There is a good chance that difference will reflect in the price of the games as well.

omg lufty that gif is hilarious!

Plus, I'm sure all Console developers hope to hit the parents around christmas time, hence the november releases. well, i dont think MOST parents are willing to give up $600 for 'the big christmas gift'. to me, thats already losing half of their market, the kids who are too young to afford to buy it themselves.

Sounds like PS3 is fun... if it is free....

I cannot be stuffed reading all posts but what is one line of the difference between PS2 and XBOX 360?

Plan to pick up 10 ....allready signed up for 4 at launch...need 6 more stores...

bro's doing the same thing...

20 at 600 a pop.... 12000 ......sell for 1K each on ebay..... 20000 ...profit 8K .....4k a piece just in time for hopefully a new turbo/supercharger ((PTP!!))

The problem with the old add on devices is that very few developers wanted to invest money in something that very few people had. The HD-DVD drive for the 360 is purely for movies and nothing else. I think its a good deal its either a 500 dollar HD-DVD player or spend 100 get the same use with the 360 and the add on. Its for the people that were going to buy the ps3 becuase it had high def dvd ability now the 360 has the same. Sorry for the confusion i dont mean the format HD-DVD i mean high def resolution DVD's.

thats already losing half of their market, the kids who are too young to afford to buy it themselves. Actually the target market is 18 - 35.

The HD-DVD drive for the 360 is purely for movies and nothing else. I think its a good deal its either a 500 dollar HD-DVD player or spend 100 get the same use with the 360 and the add on. Its for the people that were going to buy the ps3 becuase it had high def dvd ability now the 360 has the same.
Reply With Quote I think they're also going to be different HD-DVD formats.

Microsoft is backing HD-DVD from Toshiba. Sony developed Blu-ray.

They won't be compatible.

Yeah i understand, i ment they are both high def formats giving the same quality picture.

THE PS3 IS TOO CHEAP!!!

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=16971

"For instance," Kutaragi continued, "Is it not nonsense to compare the charge for dinner at the company cafeteria with dinner at a fine restaurant? It's a question of what you can do with that game machine. If you can have an amazing experience, we believe price is not a problem."

If that's the case, and it comes down to amazing experience I'm starting to think the Wii is way more bang for the buck.

Okay, problem with his reasoning:

"...It's a question of what you can do with that game machine. If you can have an amazing experience, we believe price is not a problem."

This points me toward the Wii. The PS3 experience isn't going to be any more or less amazing than the 360 experience. The Wii brings something new and potentially more immersive to the table. I suppose I can tilt the PS3 controller around a bit and pretend like I'm being immersed. Buuuuut why do that when I can be immersed for $350 less?

I wont buy the ps3r right when it comes out i will wait a lil bit, but the dual shock controller has been renamed to dual shock 3

It's been re-named to Dual Shock 2 as it is the second incarnation of the Dual Shock. Ironically, this new Dual Shock 2 lacks the "shock" of the original.

No, Dual Shock 2 is the PS2 controller with pressure sensitive buttons. Dual Shock was when they added the joysticks to the original controller.
Just look at the top of any of your PS2 controllers. :)

Oh, I see. My bad.

5) 1080P. Sony is making a big deal about 1080P being 'true HD' but that's crap. There are no 1080P displays on the market now that I know of. By the time they do arrive, they will cost at least twice as much as 720P and 1080i sets. Those cheaper sets will finally start becoming affordable to people, but even then HD won't be fully adopted for a long time.
Not to mention the the true HD is only available on the more expensive version of the console.

Sony is in trouble.

The industry buzz right now is all about disappointment re: the PS3 And where are you getting your info?

1) Microsoft beat them to market by 1 year with a product that is very similar in terms of performance. Nobody is looking at any of the real-time PS3 stuff and noticing much of an improvement over the 360 stuff. Actually, the ps3 is alot more powerful than the 360. Is it easy to utilize that power? No. Which is why you're not seeing much of an improvement ATM over the 360 stuff.

2) Microsoft has Xbox Live!, which has already been up and running for a couple years and works great. Sony is going to try to rip them off, but it's unlikely they will have anything close in terms of functionality or ease of use. I can download E3 demos directly to my 360 right now! Microsoft has a huge advantage here. Agree, the live stuff has always been better than sony's offering.

3) Sony totally ripped off Nintendo with their new motion-sensitive controller and everybody is pissed at them about it. Who is pissed at them about it? Don't make sweeping generalizations. Maybe Scott Ramsoomair from VGCats.com is pissed, but surely thats not where you got your info.

It is doubtful that many games will have much in the way of support for this controller, because almost all of the games released for the system will be nearly identical to their 360 counterparts. Sony won't be able to compete with Nintendo in terms of innovative games that use motion control schemes, it's silly for them to even try.
Yes, Nintendo's controller is much better than sony's offering. This being just released news at E3, I'm not exactly sure what sony is trying to accomplish with this change. We have a ps3 dev kit and as far as I know the controller is just a standard dual shock 2.

because almost all of the games released for the system will be nearly identical to their 360 counterparts. Kindof. It really depends on the publisher and the marketshare that sony keeps. Remember that sony is still the 800lb gorilla and even if studios go multiplatform they're going to have a dedicated ps3 team. For some of the smaller games publishers will probably opt to make 360 their target and just port to the ps3. When that happens you'll see just an incremental upgrade in the graphics of the game, much like the ps2 / xbox differences.

4) The price is way too high considering the product they're offering. The big premium has to do with blue ray, which is unlikely to catch on by the holiday, if at all. Sony is expecting that people will buy a $600 PS3 instead of a $1000 dedicated Blue Ray player, but I doubt anybody will care about Blue Ray. If the format bombs, which is a definitely possibility, Sony will be in huge trouble. Agree, a 600 dollar price point is hard to swallow. Philips tried it with their CD-i player and most people have never heard of that system. If sony wants to really push MS out of the market they should have priced it $449.99.

5) 1080P. Sony is making a big deal about 1080P being 'true HD' but that's crap. There are no 1080P displays on the market now that I know of. By the time they do arrive, they will cost at least twice as much as 720P and 1080i sets. Those cheaper sets will finally start becoming affordable to people, but even then HD won't be fully adopted for a long time. True, but this is mainly because of the HD format war. Once the cable and TV stations finally decided on a universal format to use, the price of sets will go down and HD will become household. You're right in saying that it's going to take a while - at least 5 years.

The real issue with the sony and the ps3 is that it's very difficult to code for and debug. To truly unlock the power of the ps3 your game needs to be engineering to utilize that power from the get-go, because of the multithreaded cell processing technique. The big problem with the many threads you can have running at the same time on the ps3 is most games can't be multithreaded very well. It takes some very clever engineering to multithread a game to the point the ps3 can accomplish.

It's very possible to do, it just takes alot of inital planning and that costs money. :)

The 360 is very easy to code for and debug because microsoft built the hardware around the software, sony did the opposite. For multiplatform games, developers are going to code on the 360, then the ps3 port team will shut off some of the cell processors and basically turn it into a 360 in terms of power. In the future we'll learn some neat tricks you can do on the ps3, but for right now unless the game is for ps3 only you won't see much of an improvement.

This is an interesting time. Sony is still the big boy on the block and developers go where the units are, but nintendo and MS have some very appealing offerings that might take a large chuck out of sony's market share. I'll be interested to see who comes out on top 3 years from now.

By the way, nothing I've said here is representative of my employer, it is my own personal opinion and should be taken as such.

Yeah right lol

Brief outline of the cost of past game systems compared today.

The price of the PS3 should not be a suprised give the price of the 360. The 360 helped to set the price standard when launching first, Ps3 with some better hardware and 3x the drive is of course going to go for more. Consoles are getting more cause they are not consoles gaming systems anymore!


And only the North America market is going to get it on Nov 17, EU and Japan are seperated by a few weeks I believe. 2 million units worldwide each month.

Was saleing 360s for in the 1400 range, these should easily top the 2k range with no problem :)

Atari VCS launched in 1977 for $249.99 $811.21 in 2005

Nintendo Entertainment System launched in 1985 for $199.99 $354.91 in 2005

SEGA Genesis launched in 1989 for $249.99 $389.67 in 2005

NeoGeo launched in 1990 for $699.99 $1041.12 in 2005

Super Nintendo launched in 1991 for $199.99 $282.21 in 2005

Jaguar launched in 1993 for $249.99 $328.69 in 2005

3DO Interactive Multiplayer launched in 1993 for $699.95 $920.30 in 2005

SEGA Saturn launched in 1995 for $399.99 $497.66 in 2005

Nintendo 64 launched in 1996 for $199.99 $242.75 in 2005

SEGA Dreamcast launches in 1999 for $199.99 $228.09 in 2005

PlayStation launched in 1995 for $299.99 $372.01 in 2005

PlayStation 2 launched in 2000 for $299.99 $333.15 in 2005

Xbox Launched in 2001 for $299.99 $325.34 in 2005

GameCube launched in 2001 for $199.99 $216.89 in 2005



Btw did you notice the line to just TOUCH the Wii was over 3 hrs long! That sounds dirty, bunch of guys standing in line to touch another Wii.

If anything at least Nintendo was consistent with their pricing. $199
I bought my NES in 86 (rather my parents did) for $115
I think I had a coupon or something for the SNES because I got it 2 days after launch for $150
I preordered the N64 I spent close to $300 because I bought a game and an extra controller (First time they opted to not include both)
I also got my gamecube 2 weeks after launch even though they said there was a shortage there sure wasn't a shortage in Fresno at the time.

So, Atari, NeoGeo and 3DO are the only systems on this list that cost more than the PS3 and the Saturn comes pretty close. Should we draw analogies toward price vs. success? :p:

I was just going to make the price vs success argument. ALL of the highest priced systems have flopped relatively badly.

I'm no XBOX fanboy- I love my PS2 and will buy a PS3 at about any price so I can play their exclusive content. Same reason I bought an XBOX, actually (Ninja Gaiden, HALO, Forza, etc..).

The fact remains though, that Sony being the 800lb gorilla doesn't mean jack when it comes to the next wave of the console war. After all, everyone laughed at Sony when they announced they were taking on Sega and Nintendo- What does an electronics giant know about gaming?

Microsoft has much deeper pockets than Sony, and years more experience delivering consumer software products. Microsoft's experience with developing software for information sharing between devices (such as the Live Marketplace, Windows Media Connect, and sharing data from cell phones and such) is also greater than Sony's.

I'm still buying a PS3, but I don't give Sony any advantage for being the current leader. That can dissappear in a heartbeat. Ask Nintendo.

It's funny. The Wii went from everyone going "WTF is this thing?" and "That idea sucks, I already have a TV remote." to "Wow, the Wii is a really great idea!" over the course of one Sony announcement.

I can remember the last year of being one of the few people I could find who really saw potential in the Wii's (then Revolution's) format. Suddenly it's the talk of the industry now that the PS3 is absurdly priced and the 360 has already dropped.

I agree that it's invalid to say Sony is the 800lb gorilla and thus can't fail. Just look at Nintendo. They went from king of the hill with the SNES and two generations later, they've got the system that isn't really talked about. If anything, Nintendo went from being the 10-ton King Kong of the gaming industry to the 15lb monkey.

For those looking to buy and then resell the PS3, you might not want to sink too much money into that. I'm not sure that the PS3 is going to garner the huge demand you seem to be expecting.

1080P. Sony is making a big deal about 1080P being 'true HD' but that's crap. There are no 1080P displays on the market now that I know of. By the time they do arrive, they will cost at least twice as much as 720P and 1080i sets. Those cheaper sets will finally start becoming affordable to people, but even then HD won't be fully adopted for a long time.

Actually Sony, JVC and HP have 1080p sets out now, with the HP able to take a 1080p signal directly instead of just upconverting it to 1080p, so the sets are out there, and of course they're pricey ($5000 for the 65" HP)

The problem is that I'm not sure if game makers are going to spend the time/money/resources to make games at 1080p vs 720p, at least initially.
Maybe after a few years they will. I only have 720p for now so they can take their time ;)

$600 IS a lot of money and I'm hoping it drops to $500 tops.
Then again it does have the ability to play BR disks which is what I've been waiting for. It's going to be a tough sell for the wife...maybe after I show her some of her favorite movies in true high def. it'll be easier.

Anyway if BR tanks as a format at least I'll have a kick-ass (I hope) gaming system. For me Ace Combat, God of War, Grand Theft Auto and Gran Tourismo will be worth it.

This system better last at least 5 years for me to get my moneys' worth though!

For those looking to buy and then resell the PS3, you might not want to sink too much money into that. I'm not sure that the PS3 is going to garner the huge demand you seem to be expecting.


Perhaps but there were many of the same complaints about the 360 before launch. Oh its just a XBOX the PS3 is better, oh its over priced, oh this oh that.

Yet when it hit....


I hear a lot of talk around of people wanting the Ps3 regardless. First time sales are never flops, it is generally the long term that starts to hurt the companies. WILL the console keep saleing thats the real concern.

BLOGS DUDE! Same places as you most likely. Coworkers, folks from other companies, press I know, Web sites, etc. Luckily, this is the Internet, so you'll never be able to prove that yours is bigger than mine, even with your fancy multithreading talk Do you work in the industry? If you do and you don't wanna say who for, I understand.

How much more? 5 more powerful? Does the PS3 go up to 11??? I'm sure it is more powerful, but I think Sony has drastically overrepresented that power. Remember the flak they got over last year's E3 being all pre-rendered? I've heard people talking about seek time issues with the drives and other issues. And there was that case of an artist who was a Sony employee blogging about the power not living up to expectations and getting fired over it a couple months ago. I think you're right that 2nd and 3rd gen games for the system will look better and better, but will the graphics ever really leap ahead of the 360? Probably not as much as Sony would like us to believe. Did you even read what I wrote? The ps3 is more powerful and a large lot of it's power stems from it's ability to handle an exorbitant amount of threads at the same time due to the cell chips. The problem is actually harnessing that power, because it's very difficult to multithread games. Games are very frame dependant, and the timing of threads needs to be synced so that things happen in a certain order. If your thread algorithm is off, you'll get the physics running a frame behind the graphics, which will cause visible glitches and can affect things like collision detection in a very bad way. You can also end up with a thread wait lock, which means if the graphics need the physics for something (IE, where to draw a projectile) and the physics hasn't finished yet, then the graphics will have to pause and wait for the physics to catch up. This can cause frame hitches and otherwise bad framerate.

I'm pissed! A lot of press are pissed! A lot of folks I've talked to agree that it's a pretty cheap move. Thats a pretty small percentage. ;)

Just like with the current gen, developers will generate one set of assets and develop for both platforms at once (or do one and port later), making minor to moderate optimizations for the different platforms. Assuming both 360 and PS3 are at least modestly successfully, this will happen in almost every case where a title isn't platform exclusive. I wonder how the Wii will fare. Obviously Madden will be on Wii, but will publishers want to cough up cash to modify smaller titles to support Wii? Will these games even be any good if the Wii control is tacked on? Depends on how well that platform sells I guess. Wii has a regular controller that looks alot like the old super nintendo one. If the Wii garners any kind of market demand, devs will port titles to it as well. The Wii is essentially just an overclocked gamecube, so porting shouldn't be a huge issue.

I agree that it's invalid to say Sony is the 800lb gorilla and thus can't fail. Just look at Nintendo. They went from king of the hill with the SNES and two generations later, they've got the system that isn't really talked about. If anything, Nintendo went from being the 10-ton King Kong of the gaming industry to the 15lb monkey. I don't think so. Sony has the largest marketshare and marketshare doesn't change overnight. Publishers and developers look at installed base and choose which platforms to support based on that. It takes time for people to move to another system. So it will take time to dismantle sony's dominance. If anything, it would happen on the next-next generation of consoles, the one after wii/ps3/360. Which is exactly what you said in your post, that it took two generations for Nintendo to be toppled as the giant.

Also, Nintendo's never really been "out of it". Their handheld line has easily kept them above water for quite some time now and will continue to do so until someone can release a solid competitor for the DS. The psp just doesn't have the games right now to compete. They might in a year.

IMHO I'm leaning towards Wii winning this round. I know that sounds absurd, but the DS has proven that people want fun and innovative games - not the same rehashed but better looking crap year after year. I think the Wii is going to bring the DS charm, innovation, and fun to the home console, and the market will just eat it up.

And again, everything I've posted is of my own opinion and does not reflect that of my employer or any affiliate.

So who has pic's of this new monster?

I don't think so. Sony has the largest marketshare and marketshare doesn't change overnight. Publishers and developers look at installed base and choose which platforms to support based on that. It takes time for people to move to another system. So it will take time to dismantle sony's dominance. If anything, it would happen on the next-next generation of consoles, the one after wii/ps3/360. Which is exactly what you said in your post, that it took two generations for Nintendo to be toppled as the giant.

Also, Nintendo's never really been "out of it". Their handheld line has easily kept them above water for quite some time now and will continue to do so until someone can release a solid competitor for the DS. The psp just doesn't have the games right now to compete. They might in a year.

IMHO I'm leaning towards Wii winning this round. I know that sounds absurd, but the DS has proven that people want fun and innovative games - not the same rehashed but better looking crap year after year. I think the Wii is going to bring the DS charm, innovation, and fun to the home console, and the market will just eat it up.

And again, everything I've posted is of my own opinion and does not reflect that of my employer or any affiliate.

I'm not saying that it happens overnight either, but if they don't watch it, they're going to hurt in the next gen. It's kind of a snowball effect that could be seen with the N64. N64 lost a bunch of the 3rd party interest and thus the Cube ended up struggling solely because of its limited library. The games were great, but lots of people avoided it because it didn't get a lot of the big titles that the other two systems received. To say that just one bad showing won't topple the mighty is kind of hard to believe - one bad showing won't put them out of business, but it'll knock them way down and once a company loses support from devs, it's a long, hard road to recovery.

Did you even read what I wrote? The ps3 is more powerful and a large lot of it's power stems from it's ability to handle an exorbitant amount of threads at the same time due to the cell chips. The problem is actually harnessing that power, because it's very difficult to multithread games. Games are very frame dependant, and the timing of threads needs to be synced so that things happen in a certain order. If your thread algorithm is off, you'll get the physics running a frame behind the graphics, which will cause visible glitches and can affect things like collision detection in a very bad way. You can also end up with a thread wait lock, which means if the graphics need the physics for something (IE, where to draw a projectile) and the physics hasn't finished yet, then the graphics will have to pause and wait for the physics to catch up. This can cause frame hitches and otherwise bad framerate.

In a sense these are shades of the SEGA Saturn! I have heard/read it said that the Saturn was more powerful than the PSX (PS1 or whatever you want to call it). Unfortunately for Sega not many of the other developers outside of their own inhouse developers could make the games look nearly as good as they (SEGA) could (purely on the polygon based side, it was a piece of cake for them to make better looking sprite based games on the Saturn). So by the difficulty of the design (which I will admit was different due to SEGA throwing the extra processor in there at the last minute) the Saturn very, very rarely could outperform the PSX! That generation of consoles can also back up the notion that being a more established gaming company means nothing when a new competitior arises with a worthwhile product, regardless of the stumbling that SEGA had towards the end of the Genesis' life cycle SEGA still had established themselves enough to be difficult to knock off if they had a better price point (it was the first console out of that generation so Sony would not have really been as much of a threat).

I'm not saying that it happens overnight either, but if they don't watch it, they're going to hurt in the next gen. It's kind of a snowball effect that could be seen with the N64. N64 lost a bunch of the 3rd party interest and thus the Cube ended up struggling solely because of its limited library. The games were great, but lots of people avoided it because it didn't get a lot of the big titles that the other two systems received. To say that just one bad showing won't topple the mighty is kind of hard to believe - one bad showing won't put them out of business, but it'll knock them way down and once a company loses support from devs, it's a long, hard road to recovery. Yup, we're saying the same thing. The last sentence you wrote is especially true.

So who has pic's of this new monster?
http://djcostello.free.fr/e3/PS3/ps3-funny2.jpg

http://djcostello.free.fr/e3/PS3/ps3-funny2.jpg
Makes me want one even more now. Makes me hunger too lol

http://djcostello.free.fr/e3/PS3/ps3-funny2.jpg

Dude, I just spit water I was drinking through my nose when I saw that! :mdrmed:

Chr1s, I do work in the industry, and I did read your post(s) thoroughly, but I'm not an engineer, so I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of coding for multithread capable hardware. Awesome! Small world to find another worker in the industry on these boards. Sorry if I came across as a bit pretentious, but all too often I see people who post about the industry when they have no idea what they're talking about.

I was trying to poke a bit of fun at you in that regard, but I sense from you that this issue is perhaps too serious for a Spinal Tap joke. The 360 does multithreading as well, does it not? 6 threads vs 9 on the PS3? Do the extra 3 threads on the PS3 require programmers of uncanny skill and wisdom? I don't know the exact numbers. Is it 3 processors with 2 threads per processor on the 360? I thought it was less. It is a problem though, because of the reasons I stated above. Games are difficult to multithread well and it's not just something you can throw in later to gain some performance. We're doing it on our game, but we only have 2 or 3 threads running IIRC. The game loop and the physics loop and possibly the rendering loop. That hardly pushes the 7 or 9 or whatever it is on the PS3 that you can have simultaneously running.

Here's a real world example in regards to multithreading:

I'm working on the AI, and I've had a few bugs because of multithreading that are difficult to track down. Our physics loop runs at 120Hz while our AI loop runs at 30Hz. So the AI is running 4 frames behind the physics. The designers wanted the ability to "pause" the AI individually without actually stopping the game world. Getting the pause to work was easy, but when the AI would unpause, it would be ever so slightly off, we're talking like factors of the hundreth decimal place. This causes all sorts of problems in replays and whatnot. The bug was when I saved off all the positions, vectors, and velocities of the AI, I was using the AI's snapshot of where it thought it was in space - not where the physics thought it was. Remember that the AI is 4 frames behind, so when I was stopping the AI, I was saving stale data. When the unpause would occur, the AI gets placed at the last saved position, but the physics thinks it's starting at the position 4 frames ahead, or it's current frame. The solution was to grab the current physics snapshot for the AI, the place it at that position when unpaused.

This is only a small issue, and not even a difficult one at that. Think about the issues when you start adding more and more threads to the equation, especially if things are time dependant like I stated in my previous post.

It's definitely possible, and no, you don't need to be some god of engineering, but it is something that takes careful planning and organization.

Interesting. I always wondered how replays worked in video games after I had one glitch out in a way that seems to fit your explanation. I held up the replay right as it began and continued it shortly afterwards. All the cars took the first turn on a decent line, only they turned way too early and were driving through the grass. Eventually all the cars ended up jammed into a wall going through the motions of the replay lap. That only happened that one time, but I found it super interesting.

Interesting. I always wondered how replays worked in video games after I had one glitch out in a way that seems to fit your explanation. I held up the replay right as it began and continued it shortly afterwards. All the cars took the first turn on a decent line, only they turned way too early and were driving through the grass. Eventually all the cars ended up jammed into a wall going through the motions of the replay lap. That only happened that one time, but I found it super interesting. That's a determinism bug. I'm surprised they didn't have error checking present to stop the replay when something goes off-course. Replays typically work by just saving all the positions of the objects in the world and then the inputs of the player(s). When a replay is started, it's playing the game all over again by mimicing your inputs. If everything is deterministic, it should "replay" your game exactly.

The position file comes in to find determinism bugs, like the one in your case. The game will check the current positions during the replay with the positions it has saved in the file. If this is a released game, after so many errors you'd typically throw up a box that says "Corrupt Replay File" and end the replay.

I always loved it in like a racing game where I would make the corner and win the race then in the replay I wouldn't make the corner and then my car would proceed to bounce around the walls and my wheels would spin. Good times.

That's a determinism bug. I'm surprised they didn't have error checking present to stop the replay when something goes off-course. Replays typically work by just saving all the positions of the objects in the world and then the inputs of the player(s). When a replay is started, it's playing the game all over again by mimicing your inputs. If everything is deterministic, it should "replay" your game exactly.

The position file comes in to find determinism bugs, like the one in your case. The game will check the current positions during the replay with the positions it has saved in the file. If this is a released game, after so many errors you'd typically throw up a box that says "Corrupt Replay File" and end the replay.

That's weird. This was with Gran Turismo 3, too, so it's a pretty bug-free game. Like I said, it's the only time that ever happened, but it's strange it didn't catch itself.

The PS3 is clearly aimed at the serious gamer; it's not a "kid's" game console anymore. Serious gamers spend $600 without batting an eye on their PC; high-end video cards can cost that much by themselves.

It's all about the gaming experience; if the PS3 graphics are motion-picture quality; the movement is smooth without glitches; and the games are entertaining; Sony won't be able to make enough of them.

When the PS2 came out the price was also bashed as being "ridiculous" because it was being compared to the PS1 which was available for under $100. I heard the same "no way am I going to pay that much..." comments back then, but the PS2 was a runaway hit and Sony could not make enough of them. The PS3 is deja-vu all over again. Wait 'till you see the next Gran Turismo, Ace Combat, Silent Hill on the PS3....in Dolby Surround Sound on a wide-screen hi-def tv....it'll be "$600?? I can always make another $600....who has them in stock?"




So you have actuallty seen ther games? good trick, since no one has. The E# demos were prerendered or very rough. Truth is, no game is gonna stress the 360 or the ps3 for a few years. Graphiclly they are equal....in fact, the 360, with the on die memory, may be more powerful. What ticks me off about soney is the cocky 'tude they pull. Oh, and how they rip off other co's tech. And how they lie about the systems powwer. Remember the BS about how PS2 was a super computer? LOL. then when MS launches the 360 sony brags about how the PS3 will put out duel HD signals...guess what? Nope. look at the specs, the $600 system can not do it. Only one HD output.

Sony is not amining this at the "hard core" gamer..not enough to make a profit.

I wonder why people like to bash MS, but forgive sony for all the crap they pull (like, well, ROOT KITS!!!?!?!)

The fact is, I want all three systemes to do well. BUT I think sony is getting spanked this round..they plan on losing more the a billion(not a misprint) on this system for the first year. MS has deeper pockets. and GTA is coming out on the 360 fi5rst I hear. That has always been sonys ace in the hole. Now they are left with GT3, and MS has some pretty solid games of thier own in the racing department.

And you gotta love nientendo. The WII just might be something....graphics are far behind the other two, but the games are the thing.

Actually, the ps3 is alot more powerful than the 360. Is it easy to utilize that power? No. Which is why you're not seeing much of an improvement ATM over the 360 stuff.

.

I have to disagree (respectfully, of course). The fact is, we do not know what it can really do. Remember, the 360 is also multicore.

Just because Sony says the ps3 is powerful does not make it so. I remember all the BS they shoveled over the ps2. Turns out it was all crap. Hell I remeber when the power pc core was supposed to own intel....Nope. That did not happen.

And I do think sony tried the 600 console before. I think it was called the psx and it tanked in a big way.

Fact is, from what I am reading, sony screwed the pooch with E3 in a big way.

I don't know the exact numbers. Is it 3 processors with 2 threads per processor on the 360? .

Yes, this is correct.

Now, my understanding is that even the new games like oblivion are still using only one core really. But you guys would know better then me I figure..

There has been the phrase bought up here occasionally; console for the serious gamer.

Must wonder if this is truly a correct move for companies to direct their consoles towards. I play games religious, hell I play at work for most the night. However the truth be told when I'm looking for a serious game with the best graphics, best sound I never look at a console and instead look at the computer. If Sony and MS continue in this way with a gaming console that does so much more, they may find Nintendo coming back up their ass.

I have multiple DVD players; don't really need my console to do that to. But there is still something unique about playing console vs playing a computer game. MS had a special where they said they want the next console and the 360 to be the center piece of a family’s entertainment system. The problem is people already have DVD players, home theaters; there is little reason for them to look at the 360 to replace all that.
That and given the price that the "serious" game consoles are going for its probably not a good move to continue down. Both the 360 and PS3 are decent buys for their price but there isn't anything there that a computer can't do, better, more, and cheaper in the long run.

PLEASE someone bring back the ole days of a game console that did nothing but play games. They could knock the prices down, maybe actually make money of it and more kids could beg their parents to buy one.

I have to disagree (respectfully, of course). The fact is, we do not know what it can really do. Remember, the 360 is also multicore. We were briefed a few months ago regarding the ps3 pipeline. It is more powerful than the 360.

With that said, the xbox is more powerful than the ps2, and sony was clearly the victor in that generation.

It's games that matter, not horsepower.

We were briefed a few months ago regarding the ps3 pipeline. It is more powerful than the 360.

With that said, the xbox is more powerful than the ps2, and sony was clearly the victor in that generation.

It's games that matter, not horsepower.


In addition in the Japanese market sony is more loved than Microsoft. Sell chit with the Sony name stamped on it and it will probably out sell gold if it had MS on it.

Wii pwns PS3 in the twisties.

We were briefed a few months ago regarding the ps3 pipeline. It is more powerful than the 360.

With that said, the xbox is more powerful than the ps2, and sony was clearly the victor in that generation.

It's games that matter, not horsepower.

No argument from me about the games. But the ps2 was sold in a vacume for what, 1 year or so?

Now, what we have seen from the past from sony is that there are the specs they say they have, and the real ability the system has. That is my big issue with sony, they fib a lot.

The first games you'll see using more than one core are all based off of the Unreal 3 engine which is completely multithreaded. So Gears of War will be multithreaded and multicore and should show the power of the 360 pretty well.

I'd really like to see the architecture for the cell and the xenon processors. They're both totally customed but I'd still like to see it.

EDIT: and as far as horsepower goes, I'd be willing to bet that the cell processor is not as powerful as everyone thinks on an individual basis. It's not designed for that. It's designed for grid style computing.

I just started doing research on this to find out if the architecture was anywhere.
Wikipedia had the best writeup.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28microprocessor%29#Synergistic_Processing_E lements_.28SPE.29

You basically have a single 3.2ghz scheduler that schedules jobs to 7 3.2ghz processors in the cell. These processors are optimized to execute individual threads. If you simply add up all of the computing power, cache and whatnot, it looks like an unbelievably powerful single core processor, but that's not what it is. This processor is optimized for multithreaded applications.
Your first run of games are not multithreaded, nor are they 7 threaded which is what you'd need to take full advantage of the PS3 (6 threads on the X360 as each processor core is capable of two instructions per clock through full SMT capability).

So in the end it really will come down to the games in order to show the raw processing power of the systems.

This is a huge shift in programming style for developers. Coding for multiple threads is a totally different beast and won't happen overnight.

Even in the PC arena, dual core does little or nothing at the moment except give a "smoother" feel running multiple applications. There aren't many consumer apps that take advantage of SMP and it's been around for years.

That is also my understanding..a whole differnet way of looking at programing. I just read a pretty good article with john carmack about the differance in DEV kits for sony and MS.

just an fyi, most of the MS driven games for xbox360 are actually multithreaded. Project Gotham Racing is multithreaded already. I was surprised when I found that out.

As far as threading idealogy goes, yep, it's a new way of thinking and it'll take time to get into the mass market, but it's actually not a difficult method of programming. Every application we've written in the past year has been multithreaded. It takes more time to perfect but the end result is almost always a faster application (unless the application is poorly designed and does too many thread context switches).

This processor is optimized for multithreaded applications.
Your first run of games are not multithreaded, nor are they 7 threaded which is what you'd need to take full advantage of the PS3 (6 threads on the X360 as each processor core is capable of two instructions per clock through full SMT capability).

So in the end it really will come down to the games in order to show the raw processing power of the systems.[/quote[ Isn't this basically what I've been saying for the past 12 pages? ;)

[quote]but it's actually not a difficult method of programming. Every application we've written in the past year has been multithreaded. It takes more time to perfect but the end result is almost always a faster application (unless the application is poorly designed and does too many thread context switches). Multithreaded to what degree though? and what kind of program? Games are difficult to multithread and having 7 simultaneous threads running at the same time that all have to sync up just makes my head hurt. :o:

Unreal 3 engine > *. I'm still amazed at the things you can do with the unreal tournament engine. Gotta hand it to epic, they've created a very high quality, flexible, well supported (and expensive) product. You get what you pay for though. They have a few undocumented side effects of functions that drive me insane though. Hopefully they fixed that in u3.

just an fyi, most of the MS driven games for xbox360 are actually multithreaded. Project Gotham Racing is multithreaded already. I was surprised when I found that out. Well, our game is multithreaded too, but it's not utilizing 100% of the thread capability of the 360. I doubt any game is at this point, even gears of war.

I like where this thread is going. Can someone leak me an engine? :D:

Isn't there a free one at garagegames.com? I heard it was pretty decent.

I was just wondering what everyone thinks the launch situation will be with the PS3. Do you think they will run out? I think they will...

When are places like BestBuy and Ebgames.com going to take pre-orders? I really want to get one when it is available and I don't want to wait till the second ship date like the 360 people did. Any ideas on how to get a hold of one without waiting past november 17th?

ah you can never tell with these things. I'd say if they're doing a staggered release, then hopefully not, but if they want to do a worldwide or even simultaneous release, then definitely yes.

Sony Executive Recommends Wii as Compliment to PS3 (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=2332)

Why is everyone sucking on Nintendo's Wii? Seriously, this is getting uncomfortably wiird...

MS HAET SONY
SONY HAET MS
SONY+MS LOEV NINTENDO
NINTENDO ROCK OUT WITH WII OUT

I guess it's not the size of the Wii that counts (or how expensive it costs to use it). It's HOW you use your Wii.

I'm going to get a DS Lite when it comes out in a few wiiks. Gotta get my Ouendan going.

I really think Big N has a chance to sweep the market back up with this thing judging from the E3 response. There were rumors that the wait was artificially generated by Nintendo with weird line setup and waiting rooms, but the fact remains that a lot of people were willing to wait 4 hours in line to check it out. It's a real underdog right now and it's awesome.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=10436&type=wmv&pl=game

Gran Turismo HD trailer in case nobody has seen it yet :)

yea, i'd rather Sony try to 'keep up' rather than not include any innovation in the new system.

btw, in regards to the whole pitch and yaw movement controller: can a controller now be held and used as an 'air steering wheel'? i have not kept up with console news, so im betting this has already been discussed.
Ok, I don't feel like reading 13 pages of stuff so I'll answer this question even though it may have been answered already.

Yes, it can be. In fact Sony had a demo of that at E3. I couldn't play it since people were waiting for it but I did take a video of someone playing it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=c8qLzkz3SdQp (http://youtube.com/watch?v=c8qLzkz3SdQ)

Warhawk right? That's like the only game it works for. I had heard most of the developers didn't actually learn of the tilt functionality until after the E3 press conference.

Why is everyone sucking on Nintendo's Wii? Seriously, this is getting uncomfortably wiird...

MS HAET SONY
SONY HAET MS
SONY+MS LOEV NINTENDO
NINTENDO ROCK OUT WITH WII OUT

Plagiarizationstation 3 right?

MS likes Nintendo... Then uh.. Yeah we.. liked it yesterday before it was cool.. Yeah..

What's next? will the PS3 also play 360 games? Or does it come with it's own yes man?

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=10436&type=wmv&pl=game

Gran Turismo HD trailer in case nobody has seen it yet :)

I really wish they had whipped some small demo up to show off what they thought the next GT could look like instead of just putting GT4 in super high res. I'm sure it'll be gold, but I want a little sample of that gold now!

Does Sony have anything original anymore?

Phase 1: Steal Rumble.
Phase 2: Steal Tilt.
Phase 3: Steal Spiderman font.
Phase 4: Steal one competitor's opinion about other competitor.
Phase 5: ???
Phase 6: Profit.

You can't really blame Sony for ripping things off. Some ideas are just good ones. Though if you think about it Sony should've scrapped the motion sensing in the controller and thought more about incorporating the EyeToy idea into the PS3. I remember there were talks of having the EyeToy register your instinctive dodging movements...

If I were Sony, I would definitely steal that idea from Nintendo (if I didn't go with the EyeToy idea in the first place). Just because they need something to distinguish themselves from the XBox. Right now I don't see much difference between the XBox and the PS3. Both have HD graphics. Sure the PS3 is more powerful (or is supposed to be), but I don't think it's really that noticeable. With the motion sensing Sony has a bit of an edge because it provides Microsoft graphics, and small part of the Nintendo experience.

Otherwise people are just going to buy the Xbox and the Wii (sadly enough you can almost buy both systems for the price of an upgraded PS3). Sony really needs this to be a success to get BluRay to stick.

I read that this game was actually running on a PC instead of PS3 at E3...
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=31681

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=10436&type=wmv&pl=game

Gran Turismo HD trailer in case nobody has seen it yet :)

As much as I would like to believe that, the Inquirer is the most horrible source for video game news ever.

They do this all the time. Almost never are these early tech demos running on final spec equipment.

So did anyone reserve one today? I did... I was 4th in line.

The store was getting 8 units so I'm 4/8 which i'm pretty sure will guarantee that I get a unit on Nov 17th.

(sorry for bringing this thread back from the dead, but I didnt want to start a new one)

Wow thought it was delayed till next year

Wow thought it was delayed till next year

rumor...

well, in the US it will be released Nov 17. Europe has to wait until March and Japan gets it 6 days before the US.

I'm not a gamer in any way. I never buy systems or games... but I am definately getting this one!

The launch line up sucks. There's next to nothing that I want for it right now. But, I need a PS2 so I can play Disgaea 2, so I'll probably be able to wait a while on it. I may try for a launch console to reverse it onto e-bay.

wii60 baby!

how much is the ps3 going to cost

how much is the ps3 going to cost

its in the first post and now this one $499 for the base model and $599 for the fully loaded. Both of which are completly ridiculous prices but I might buy 2 or 3 and sell them on ebay for ridiculous profit.

599 !!!! holy sh@t this think better give me some good BJ at night

its in the first post and now this one $499 for the base model and $599 for the fully loaded. Both of which are completly ridiculous prices but I might buy 2 or 3 and sell them on ebay for ridiculous profit.
might be hard. from what i hear the gamestops across the country are sold out already. rumor has it they sold out with in ours of their announcing preorders. i don't think sony's shipping that many units.

might be hard. from what i hear the gamestops across the country are sold out already. rumor has it they sold out with in ours of their announcing preorders. i don't think sony's shipping that many units.

They aren't and I work at a Gamestop part time.

Anyone else thinking about camping out at your local walmart/bestbuy/etc? The profit potential is very tempting...

I'm considering it. Gotta weigh the effort vs. reward though. I might have to duck out of work in order to wait on line to get it. And, with the way the weather has been lately, I might end up getting sick by waiting outside.

Allready have one preordered going for 1400 on ebay.....decided to take the day off and im gonna camp out for an extra one as well

Allready have one preordered going for 1400 on ebay.....decided to take the day off and im gonna camp out for an extra one as well

same here.... #4 in line at eb games so i'm pretty sure i'll get one which I'll keep for myself.

planning on camping out for an extra to give to my lil bro for xmas. I'm in San Antonio as well, where are you planning on camping out and at what time? (for how long)