Ok, I'm going to montreal on the 30th of August. I called up Talon Tire and will be heading there on a Saturday (when they are closed to the public) and they are going to see if they can get a 16" wheel on the car. He said they would try a 15" but I really don't think that is going to happen!

Anyway, they are VERY helpfull there and they have EXCELLENT prices. Shipping from Montreal to Ottawa for an entire 4 wheel set he said was $35 and you don't have to pay the provincial sales tax! Big $$$$ SAVINGS!


Once I find out more info I'll post it. He said he can discount for more packages of course.

Hopefully this pans out.

I sent f1michel a message since he is in Montreal as well.

i'm working that saturday but it all depends at what time you figure you'll be there. i'mat the office up until 2
pm or so and could be there by 2:3o max

i'd love to be there as well. any idea of the cost for the rims and tires?

Be very careful. Do not order any tires until you
have a rim that fits.

My dealership could not fit 16" rims onto the RX8.

They will be getting me a package that includes 17 "
steel rims and 225 50 winter tires. I'm thinking of
going with a Michelin product.

Danny

So you are saying 16" WON'T fit the car? And how much would be the 17" rims? any idea about the tires $$ ?

This is why we want to TEST this. This tire shop is top notch. Basically he needed to know the centre bore. He said heck if you have the right dimensions it should be no problem.


I originally was looking at 17" rims, apparently there are NO 17" STEEL rims what will fit the 8 either! They don't make 17's with that correct dimensions and bolt pattern!

17's should be 215/55/R17, if you go 225 I would still go 55 because your are loosing too much height.

If we can get 16's to fit 215/60/16 would be the tire and there are TONS of options at that size and some good pricing :)

Here are the rims I was looking at originally and they should fit.
http:\\www.tiretrends.com/wheel_catalog.php3?wheelID=209

heck they even look like the RX8 stock rims :)

What Michelins are you looking at?

I've have got some recommendations from a few tire shops and they have all been either get the Dunlop M2's or M3's or get the Yokohama AVS901's or the Toyo G02.

Not one mentioned Michelin, I think it has something to do with price / performance I find Michelin way overpriced.

I'm game. Please keep me in the loop.

I also asked my service guy at the dealership to check out his tire contact and see what is available. He also says his tire guy is pretty good at this. Will be interesting to see what the final fit looks like with respect to tire and rims.

Originally posted by Wing

Here are the rims I was looking at originally and they should fit.
http:\\www.tiretrends.com/wheel_catalog.php3?wheelID=209


Why would you buy rims that look identical to the original rims???

Come on be adventerous, like here's a few ideas if your intested

http://www.renesis.ca/gallery/evolv/ (http://renesis.ca/gallery/evolv/)

Evolv, because they are the cheapest possible rims available. If I wanted new rims I would have to look at 18" rims that are in the 900 each range!

I really want steelies. Alloys are just going to get pitted anyways.

I would welcome posts from anyone who can put together a 'Steely/Good-Snows' package that I can just order & bolt on....

Yes, I am lazy, and yes, I am interested!
.
.
.
doc

Doctorr... how north are you? :-)

dammit, away from the forum for two days, you miss big stuff...

sorry guys, group buys have to be OK'd by the powers that be.

...temporarily put on pause.

*PAUSED*

ok, so Wing, 'cause this is your idea, talk to BOOSTD7 or Jason (or Sputnik/Toadman if neither can be reached) about this whole this, and i'll open 'er back up when the air is cleared.

sticky so that people know what's up.

*STICKY*

*PLAY*

ok boyos, we've got the seal of approval.

proceed. :cool:

Ok thanks!

Now I'm just waiting for f1michel to let me know his plans to visit Talon Tire or not.


Anyone else in Montreal willing to spare 30 min to an hour at Talon tire for a wheel fitting?

If I get no takers I'll be heading to Montreal on the 30th and will do it then. I was told they would try 16's as they would have to order 17's.

let me know guys! If 16's don't fit they will have to order some 17's for a fitting, I'm not sure if I can head back or not. It would start to make no sense for me as driving to montreal on premium is not cheap ;)

I'll do it on the 30th if you give me the address & phone No. of Talon Tire and if my car comes in by then. Mazda is replacing a bumper that cracked during off-loading from the ship in Vancouver, so I hope to get it on Aug. 22 or 25. Otherwise, perhaps one of the other Montrealers (who would like to have an answer to this winter tire/rim question) can help out.

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8913

Is it the brakes that are too big to take the 16" rims' I thought there was another thread in the General Discussion Forum where it was said to be OK.

I measured the current rims and the brakes are 1" from the rim.

It really depends on the rim, some are smaller on the inside than others.

It doesn't have to be on the 30th. I will be heading to montreal on the 30th, so they said they could accomodate me.

If you will do it FOR SURE, then it doesn't matter if it's the 30th or if it's sometime in September or whatever.

It's just that I'll be in Montreal on the 30th and they agreed to help me out. If you're in montreal you could do it any M-F :)

go to www.talontire.com they are just off of henry bourassa, I believe I was speaking to John, he was VERY helpfull.

Let me know if you'll do it. I guess you'll know if you'll have your car soon!

I'll let everybody know as soon as I do. In case the guys at Talon ask, do you have an idea how many folks are interested in the Quebec/Ontario group buy (taken a poll?)

I think there was at least 3 or 4 so far interested. I'm sure more will chime in once we actually get an option package.

For the time being I don't think the Talon guys care, they said certainly they would love to put a "package" together though even for 1 person.

But here's what I have.

Me: FOR SURE
Canada: I am guessing yes
f1michel: seems interested
doctorr: Said he was game.
mac: Not sure but he may be when he gets his car
Bulldog6670: says he's game
Ogilthorpe: is in

edit: up to 7ish

count me in !

If the package is nice, then I will be in too. You have to have winter tires...

They will probably be 16" steelies (if possible) or inexpensive 17" alloys.

md, I thought you wanted 18" winters on alloys?

I will probably be in even though i'm thinking a 2nd car for the winter. I'm sorry Wing if i haven't answered you faster or called Talon yet. i'm in a very tight schedule these days with kids, studying for work stuff and the GF as well... ;-)

Originally posted by Wing
I measured the current rims and the brakes are 1" from the rim.


That is mainly due to the fact that the wheel spokes curve outward to clear the calipers.
If you put a straight edge on this ( I did) the clearance would only be 1/4" ( 6mm)

Up here in Canada we are maybe a bit more interested in winter tires. Something about driving half the year on ice and snow has that effect! <grin>

I think it is useful to mention a couple of things about wheels and tires I have observed:

1) If we use narrower wheels and tires ( 7" wheel width and 205/50/17 tires) we have more clearance.

2) A lot of snow and winter and "all weather" tires have been mentioned in a few threads here.

3)We do not have a lot of wheel well clearance, so it may be useful to consider the fact that under some conditions ice and snow will pack in the wheel wells, so a small outside diameter is useful but makes the speedo reading less accurate.

4)"All season tires" generall mean they have decent wet characteristics, and a bit of ice capability.
However they usually get hard in cold conditions, and are not useful for ice as a result.

5)Winter tires fall into two groups:
Good for cold and ice
Good for snow.
These are two quite differing requirements.
There is no such thing as an ideal snow result and an ideal ice result in the same tire.

6)Winter tires wear a lot more quickly than most summer tires.
A winter tire needs to stay soft and pliable in very cold weather. If you drive in warmer conditions they are usually quite soft.

7)Snow tires have tread swedges that extend over the sides of the tires a bit. The biggest problem on ice and snow is lateral grip.

8)Winter tires make a lot more noise than summer tires, expecially snow tires.

9)We are driving cars with high speed capability. As many will still want to go fast if road conditions are good, it is probably best to buy a winter tire with at least an "H" speed rating.
See:
http://www.tiresafety.com/size_class/size_nav2a.htm

An H rated tire is good for 130mph (210kmh)
Tires with ratings of V, W, Y, and the older (deprecated) "Z" rating are higher yet.

10)We also need to pay attention to load ratings.
If the RX-8 is 3000 lbs ( 1364kg) and we carry four passnegers, luggage, etc., we need to allow for about 4,000 lbs. (1820kg)

That means the tires must be rated for at least 1,000 lbs. (455kg) each. That is a load rating of 81 or higher.
http://www.tiresafety.com/size_class/size_nav2.htm



I hope this is helpful to someone.

I have talked to a couple of online tire and wheel sellers.
In general they say that there is little margin in wheels, and a bit more in tires.
They mostly are volunteering little discounts on wheels, and about 5% on tires.

Shipping is also a fairly large cost factor.
A set of 4 wheels, with tires mounted, weighs about 200 lbs.

Expect to pay around $50 to $75 for freight in Canada.

We should also try and buy from out of our province for the majority, from a dealer with no presence in our province.
That way we avoid provincial sales tax. Of course for Alberta that is a moot point.

I`ll certainly have an interest if the deal is good. I have yet to get my car but it is expected in a few weeks.

Originally posted by Wing
They will probably be 16" steelies (if possible) or inexpensive 17" alloys.

md, I thought you wanted 18" winters on alloys?

That is my preference, but it is worth pricing out different options. 17" P215/55R17 Pirelli P210's would be ok, just not as nice performing on dry winter days as the 18" Blizzak LM-22's

I'm intrested also.

Wow we are up to 10 interested parties.

Looking good.

I'm not sure how much shipping will be.

Talon Tire is in Montreal only so no provincial tax if you are out of Montreal. I was told $35 to ship to Ottawa. Other places might be more expensive.

Check out their website www.talontire.com

There may not be much room to move on Rims, but tires there is for sure! Heck we have a discount at work that offers 45% off tires from a local store.

But Talon Tires prices are lower than 45% off MSRP to start with!

Also a good deal can be had at www.tiretrends.com, if Talon can't accomodate we can also go with the 17" package from tiretrends i'm sure they can discount on volume as well.

f1michel any update?

I compared the Tiretrends and Talon sites.
Talon is slightly cheaper on Bridgestone, and slightly higher on Dunlop, Pirelli, etc.
So, freight is likely an important deciding factor.

Can someone call them and ask what they charge for freight, for say, Ontario, Quebec, Alberta, and Vancouver?
I am talking price for frieght on tires, premounted on wheels.
Say 17" x 7" rims, and 205/50/R17 tires..

It is discussed on another thread, but to be sure i just checked with Mazda Canada.
We do not have the tire pressure sensors. USA is the only place with them.

canzoomer, you are correct we do not have pressue sensors, you could have just asked ;)

Tiretrends charges $12 a rim and $12 a tire to Ontario. So that's $24 a tire!

We'll find out about Talon as soon as we have a package put together.

Talon recommended Toyo G02's or Yokohama AVS901's. We can probably get a few different choices going.

Let's be patient. We have yet to even see if they have rims to fit us.

Originally posted by Wing
canzoomer, you are correct we do not have pressue sensors, you could have just asked ;)

Tiretrends charges $12 a rim and $12 a tire to Ontario. So that's $24 a tire!

We'll find out about Talon as soon as we have a package put together.

Talon recommended Toyo G02's or Yokohama AVS901's. We can probably get a few different choices going.

Let's be patient. We have yet to even see if they have rims to fit us.

I DID ask! Thanks!
Tiretrends quoted me $70 per set of 4, anywahere in Canada by Purolator ground.
1010 uses UPS at a 45% discount.
All we do not know is Talon now..

Hey Wing,

I'm in with the right package. I want something for ice/slush since Ottawa doesn't get too many days with deep snow compared to icy roads :(

I'm interested, but it depends on the details. I definitely want "real" snow tires, with the mountain/snowflake logo on them. Also, I don't want to pay too much for wheels - steel or cheap(-ish) alloy.

Thanks for organizing this, Wing.

No prob, it will be for sure "real" snow's and possibly a few choices to choose from.


But like Mac said, here in Ottawa it's silly to get "snow" tires. "Winter" tires for sure with the mountain/flake logo but ones that are best on dry / slushy / icy conditions would be more benificial that ones that work great on snow.

Most of the roads are saltled :eek: by the time I'm out of the house at 7:30am.

I was just using the term "snow tires" as a synonym for "winter tires". I guess it's because when I learned to talk there was no difference between the two. Back then, the cool new word was "radial". :p

Oh I'll put that on the list, make sure they are radials "check" :D

I'm definately interested in getting something to put together for winter driving as well but, as you can see from my location, I'm not in Canada so the group-buy probably won't work for me.

I'm going to need to figure out what to do about pressure sensors too. I'd be satisfied if there were a fuse that could be pulled that would turn off the warning light when I had my set of winter tires on and then put it back when spring comes so that I didn't have to worry about getting the sensor to work. According to what Mr. Yaw has found out as he's in the process of designing wheels, the sensors are not a trivial thing to deal with as far as balancing and sealing goes.

Your preferences all sound great to me as far as steely's go and as far as cost / tire size goes. Even if I can't participate in the group-buy I'd love to know what configuration you guys come up with.

I'm also interested in what you guys come up with... being in the USA it looks like I'm screwed on the pressure monitors though

Why not simply replace the original tires by winter/snow tires in 225/45R18 ?

Ben I'm not sure if they use salt where you are, but here they use salt. It terribly pits your alloys and they look like garbage at the end of the winter. Best to save them.

Originally posted by [Ben]
Why not simply replace the original tires by winter/snow tires in 225/45R18 ?

1) contact patch is too big on a tire that big.
2) wheel well clearance is too tight. Snow will pack in the wells, "locking" the wheels in position. This is DANGEROUS.
3) Many of us do not wnat to expose our good wheels to winter damage. Do you know what those wheels COST?
4) It is almost impossible to get snow tires in this size.

Originally posted by canzoomer


1) contact patch is too big on a tire that big.
2) wheel well clearance is too tight. Snow will pack in the wells, "locking" the wheels in position. This is DANGEROUS.
3) Many of us do not wnat to expose our good wheels to winter damage. Do you know what those wheels COST?
4) It is almost impossible to get snow tires in this size.

1) I used 225/55R16's P210 SnowSports on my BMW540 for a few years without any problems (I do live in the city).
2) How much clearance do you need? Are you recommending wheels/tires with a smaller overall diameter?
3) The only tires I know of are Blizzak LM-22's. A friend has them and says they are OK on the snow, but excellent on dry winter roads. That definitely makes them a compromise.

I am leaning towards trying the LM-22's on a second set of wheels, but it will be expensive, and not the best snow performance. The price and content of the group buy will be interesting.

I still have my winter alloy rims for the BMW, and they don't show any pitting from the salt.

Originally posted by mdmaclean


I still have my winter alloy rims for the BMW, and they don't show any pitting from the salt.

I think it depends on the quality of the rim and the amount you wash them. My tiburon's rims looked like a war zone after 1 winter! You should have saw them after 3 years, HORRIBLE!

Blizzaks aren't the be-all of winter tires. There are plenty of other choices - this thread seems to have ignored several previous discussions of winter tires that have already taken place in RX-8forum!

Check out the discussions in this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6613) from the Tires and Wheels section and this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6676) from the Canada section.

FWIW, I'm leaning towards 17" lightweight Konig alloys with the Toyo Garit HT 215/55-17 for my winter setup.

Regards,
Gordon

Nothing has been ignored. I'm waiting about rims. If I can get 16" steel rims it would be MUCH cheaper than the 17" alloys.

If the 16" rims fit then we can discuss the tire options. If it's 17" then we discuss that.

I'm leaning away from Blizzak.

I'm personally looking at Dunlop/Toyo/Yokohama.

But we'll see when we get wheel fittings.

Sorry, it just seemed that many people focus on "Blizzak" whenever winter tires are discussed!

I agree that wheel fitment will be crucial. I'm leaning towards 16" alloys if they fit, then 17" alloys. I don't like the unsprung weight compromises that steel wheels will bring - I'd sooner live with a bit of corrosion on alloy wheels (and I don't believe it's that bad - I've run alloy wheels all winter for many years, and it takes quite a few years (and a lack of attention to the occasional wash) for a good alloy wheel to show the effects of salt. The ride could actually be better with winter tires on 16 or 17 inch alloys than with the factory 18" wheels! Steel wheels would degrade ride and handling (such as it is with winter tires and conditions - it's more correct to say unsprung weight is bad - same reason I would never switch to 19" for appearance sake!)

Different models of wheels will have different caliper clearances - all 16" wheels are not created equal! I was told by a Mazda NAO (Irvine) insider that the OEM 16" wheels (base US model) would clear the big brakes on the Sport suspension (18" OEM wheel models), but he couldn't confirm that someone had actually tried it. If you do try alloys, try models from different manufacturers. I'm partial to some of the Konig models like Helium and Holes, because they have proven to be very strong yet lightweight for cast wheels, and they aren't expensive (check TireTrends site).

With interest,
Gordon

Originally posted by Wing
Nothing has been ignored. I'm waiting about rims. If I can get 16" steel rims it would be MUCH cheaper than the 17" alloys.

If the 16" rims fit then we can discuss the tire options. If it's 17" then we discuss that.


One of the dealers in wheel was nice enough to measure the dimensions on a bunch of 16" wheels for me, and none of them would clear the brakes.
Also, we have to find a wheel with a lot of room to clear the calipers as well.

I am leaning towards 17" x 7" with 205/55/17 tires.
It is also a good idea to be careful of load rating and speed rating.
If you want tires with the required load/speed/size in 17" I have so far found (prices in Canadian $$):
All in 205/50/R17"
Dunlop Sport M2 - $201
Falken Ziex 2E-512 $173

Tires that are snow approved by Canada Transport:
Blizzak LM22 - $244
Pirelli Winter 210A - $212
Toyo Snowprox S950 - $220
Nokian NRW - $262
Dunlop Graspic DS-1 - $228
Michelin Pilot Alpin - $250

205/45/R17:
Pirelli Ice Assymetrico - $233

Hey Wing, i don't think i'll be able to go to Talon anytime soon. ( it sounds funny but i'm so tied up in stuff i cannot even go to Mtl anymore as i live so very close by in Laval )

If you can go the 30th that's great if not i'm sure we will be able to try on some wheels later on this fall.

Ok cool, I'll make an appointement for the 30th.

EDIT: Guess you never read your PM's :) We have the same car :)

Ok guys, guess we'll find out if 16" wheels fit this weekend!

Originally posted by canzoomer

I am leaning towards 17" x 7" with 205/55/17 tires.
All in 205/50/R17"
205/45/R17:


I want narrower tires, but not shorter tires - no point in reducing the already marginal ground clearance and throwing off the speedometer! The equivalent diameter to OEM in a 17" size is 215/55-17. A 205/55-17 is too short, and the 50 and 45 series are even shorter.

There are quite a few other winter rated tires that aren't on your list, too.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG


I want narrower tires, but not shorter tires - no point in reducing the already marginal ground clearance and throwing off the speedometer! The equivalent diameter to OEM in a 17" size is 215/55-17. A 205/55-17 is too short, and the 50 and 45 series are even shorter.

There are quite a few other winter rated tires that aren't on your list, too.

Regards,
Gordon
Narrower tires would be 195 instead of 205
In picking 205, this is narrower than 225 (the stock width)
205 is the width of the tire, in mm
55 is the sidewall height, expressed as a percentage of the width.

See:
http://www.gmtips.com/3rd-degree/dox/tips/tires/tires.htm

If we use a 17" wheel, we lower the car, but by selecting a 205/55/17 we end up with a tire diameter very close to the stock 225/45/R18

Like this:
18" wheel, converted to mm is 457.2
225 times 45% times two is 202.5
457.2 + 202.5 = 659.7

17" wheel, converted to mm is 431.8
205 times 55% times two is 225.5
431.8 + 225.5 = 657.3

The car would sit 2.4mm lower than with the 18" stock setup.

If you wanted more wheelwell tire clearnace select either a 205/45/17 tire: 616.3 ( 43mm lower than stock)
195/55/17 tire: 646.3 ( 13mm lower than stock)

Bear in mind that the more you deviate from the 659.7 figure the more your speedo is off, assuming it is right in stock trim.

That would throw your speedo off a bit though.
For examle, with the 195/55/17 setup:
pi x d is the formula, so:
Stock:
225/45.18: 3.1415 x 659.7 = 2072.4
205/45/17: 3.1415 x 616.3 = 1936.11
1936.11/2072.4 = 93.4% of the original, so at 100km/h original speedo reading you would actually be going 93.4km/h

canzoomer:
215/55/17 is closer than 205/55/17 93% is A LOT off!

If you use 215/55/17 the difference is 1% above, so when showing 100Km/h your going 101Km/h that's closer.


Anyone jack their car up yet?

I did this weekend, WHOLLY CRAP!

There is about 1 foot of spring stretch before your wheel comes off the ground! :eek:

I took off my tire and heck you could have a party in that wheel well!

Originally posted by Wing
canzoomer:
215/55/17 is closer than 205/55/17 93% is A LOT off!

If you use 215/55/17 the difference is 1% above, so when showing 100Km/h your going 101Km/h that's closer.


Math time:
Stock tire: 225/45/18
.45 x 225 = 101.25
2 x 101.25 = 202.5
Stock wheel: 18"
18 x 25.4 = 457.2
457.2 + 202.5 = 659.7

215/55/17:
.55 x 215 = 118.25
2 x 118.25 = 236.5
17" wheel:
17 x 25.4 = 431.8
431.8 + 236.5 =668.3

668.3 / 659.7 = 1.013

Now let's do that with 205/55/17:
.55 x 205 = 112.75
2 x 112.75 = 225.5
17" wheel:
17 x 25.4 = 431.8
431.8 + 225.5 =657.3

657.3 / 659.7 = .996

Even closer to stock diameter ( less than half a percent), smaller contact patch, lower cost tires, more readily available size, more wheel well clearance by using a narrower tire.

I rest my case.

Who cares about wheelwell to tire clearance? :confused: (PS - save the math, I fully understand all the parameters in the size designations. If you really want to do math, look up the actual tread width and diameter numbers from the manufacturer's websites for comparisons instead of using the nominal values - there can be significant differences between tires of the same nominal size but from different manufacturers.) If you run a shorter diameter tire, you will lower the ground clearance of the car - the car will sit closer to the ground by the difference in radius. Why run a shorter tire in winter that will lower your car closer to the snow/slush? It's a great idea for Solo competition, but otherwise... ;)

Regards,
Gordon

Canzoomer I was going by YOUR numbers on the tires. I just noticed you actually put in 205/45/17 that's why!

Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, I have an appointement for saturday to try out some steelies.

If they don't fit they will be doing measurements for the perfect fit 17" alloy.

Well know all the important numbers than.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Who cares about wheelwell to tire clearance? :confused: If you run a shorter diameter tire, you will lower the ground clearance of the car - the car will sit closer to the ground by the difference in radius. Why run a shorter tire in winter that will lower your car closer to the snow/slush? It's a great idea for Solo competition, but otherwise... ;)

Regards,
Gordon

2 reasons:
More wheel well clearance, so that if snow packs in there is less chance of your wheels.
The RX-8 has lots of ground clearnace to start with, so a few mm is not going to matter much..

Originally posted by canzoomer
The RX-8 has lots of ground clearnace to start with, so a few mm is not going to matter much..

I guess you and I define "lots of ground clearance" differently!

From Mazda Canada web site, RX-8 (laden) ground clearance is 120 mm, or 4.7".

Other vehicles of note:
Infiniti G35C: 6.3"
Acura RSX-S: 5.9"
Celica GT-S: 5.5"
Subaru WRX STi: 5.7"

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG


I guess you and I define "lots of ground clearance" differently!

From Mazda Canada web site, RX-8 (laden) ground clearance is 120 mm, or 4.7".

Other vehicles of note:
Infiniti G35C: 6.3"
Acura RSX-S: 5.9"
Celica GT-S: 5.5"
Subaru WRX STi: 5.7"

Regards,
Gordon
I have a big curb on my driveway.
I clear it (just).
I have a friend with a G35C and he does NOT clear it.

I just measured it on my driveway and I get 5.5" which is at the catalytic converter in the middle of the car.
The rest of the low points are all cross members, and they are about 6.25" from the ground.
There IS a rubber lip hanging down in front of the front wheels, and it measures about 5", but it is very flexiblem, and just bends back at a slight touch.

Hey Guys....
I've been outta touch lately (super busy with work and stuff) ...but definitely interested in winter tires as well ...look forward to hearing more about your findings/recommendations and a group buy....

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Sorry, it just seemed that many people focus on "Blizzak" whenever winter tires are discussed!


Gord,

If my post was the one you were referring to, the Blizzak LM-22 (a diferent tire than many Blizzak's), is the only winter tire that I am aware of which is available in a size which matches the stock tire size.

I don't think that the LM-22's are that great in snow, but apparently handle quite well. FYI, my current winter tires from the BMW were Pirelli P210 Snowsports.

Originally posted by mdmaclean
If my post was the one you were referring to

Nope, not yours, it just seems that any time a winter tire discussion comes up people almost automatically start talking "Blizzak"! (here, and on the Miataforum, and elsewhere) You're right, the LM-22 is a better choice for an RX-8, but in a -1 size (17", slightly narrower) they don't have a proper size (215/55-17). I wouldn't put a WS-50 on any car I owned, so that leaves only a few alternatives.

How did you like the Pirelli 210s? I've a little bit of experience with them on a Miata, and they seemed to do OK.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Wing

Anyway, I have an appointement for saturday to try out some steelies.

If they don't fit they will be doing measurements for the perfect fit 17" alloy.

Well know all the important numbers than.

Thanks Wing!

I look forward to hearing how it worked out.
Wether through group buy, or on my own I DO need to deal with this pretty soon, as here in Edmonton we could easily see snow quite soon..

BTW, regarding group buys, do any of the Alberta and B.C. owners want to get together and work on one with a couple of the vendors online?
I will gladly help organize this.

Ta!

Wing,
I just got my RX-8 today. It is a blast (automatic and all)! But now that I have it, I can go to the Talon Tire for you on Saturday, to try the varios rims, if you don't want to drive all the way here to Montreal. I am extremely busy during the week at work for the forseeable future, so I definitely have to make it a Saturday. Since you've already convinced them to be open for you this Saturday, I could sub for you if you want. Just let me know.

Check your private messages Canada!
Or your e-mail.

I'm there!

Did you call them to confirm? Yes you did :)


Ok guys, I talked to John at Talon Tire.

He had good news and bad news.

Good / Bad news:

Mac pac (HUGE wheel company in Montreal) sent him a 16" and 17" steel wheel, that they THINK will fit. He seemed a little skeptical because of the centre bore. He told me he will try them on Canada's car anyways, because MacPac wanted to know if they fit. He thought, sure they might fit, but he feels they would create vibrations and such because of them being the wrong centre bore.

He said, most shops will sell anything, but if the measurements are off he said he won't sell them as they would cause wear on the drivetrain, even if they fit over the breaks.


He also ordered in a 16" steel HE thinks will fit, and a 15", although we all doubt a 15" will fit.

Last resort:

If these wheels do not fit, we will have to go with an alloy. He will be taking ALL the required measurements from the stock alloy make sure we have a perfect fit in 17" alloy.

Canada, keep us posted! If Canada disappears (driving into the sunset) I'll call them again Tuesday.

Have a fun long weekend guys! Drive safe!

Hey guys, fwiw from a large amount of feedback we get in our club the Toyo G02's are probably top 3 winter performance tires. Talon Tire is an affiliate of our club and John is a great guy to deal with and always available to help out.
Not sure if the Nokian Hakkapellita are available in your size but those tires are also top 3 imho.
http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/homeF.cfm

Yeah John is awesome, he recommended the Toyo's as well and said they were fairly inexpensive, actually on the cheaper end of the scale!

He also (as well as another shop) recommended the Yokohama AVS901's and the Dunlop M2's or M3's

Originally posted by Wing
He will be taking ALL the required measurements from the stock alloy make sure we have a perfect fit in 17" alloy.


Please make SURE he tries a few different 16" alloys as well - they're more likely to fit than 16" steelies, and give us more and cheaper winter tire options than 17"...

Regards,
Gordon

Here is what I am going for:
I Think these are the best bet for me at least here in Edmonton, where we get a lot of ice, not much really deep snow..

Nokian WR in 225/45/17 H rated for speed.
KAL Tire is selling them for $254 each.
Anybody know o fother sources?

References:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/hl/nokian.htm

http://www.nokiantyres.com/nokian_wr_en.html

Their dealer locater is at:
http://www.nokiantires.com/html/map.htm

Ta!

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have decided that i think the best best are the Nokian WR tires.

I dropped by the local Nokian dealer today (KAL Tire) and they trial fitted some 17" alloy winter wheels they are selling.
They are 17" x 7" with 38mm offset, and are fairly clean, so should not hold a lot of dirt.

For those worried about clearance inside and out, no problem. I can put my fist between the wheel and the struts, and between it and the fender.

KAL Tire have offered a group buy discount, so, if the moderator does not mind, i would like to post the offer..

Originally posted by Gord96BRG


Nope, not yours, it just seems that any time a winter tire discussion comes up people almost automatically start talking "Blizzak"! (here, and on the Miataforum, and elsewhere) You're right, the LM-22 is a better choice for an RX-8, but in a -1 size (17", slightly narrower) they don't have a proper size (215/55-17). I wouldn't put a WS-50 on any car I owned, so that leaves only a few alternatives.

How did you like the Pirelli 210s? I've a little bit of experience with them on a Miata, and they seemed to do OK.

Regards,
Gordon

The P210's were fine in the snow, and I never got stuck anytime. What I did not like was the BIG change in handling between the 235/45R17 Pirelli P6000's in the summer and the P210's (225/55R16) in the winter. On dry winter/spring roads, the grip was not there. All in all, I am hoping to do something sharper handling, but I could end up with them again.

Now that I am buying winter tires for the RX-8, I am debating maximum snow traction compared to better handling. I also expect that the LM-22 route will be a lot more expensive, both up front and for replacement tires later.

canzoomer, the offset on the stock wheels is 50mm, 38mm will create load on your bearings!

I wouldn't put anything lower than 42mm or even 45mm on.

What was the "standard" price of the rims, and the tire seperatly?

Originally posted by Wing
canzoomer, the offset on the stock wheels is 50mm, 38mm will create load on your bearings!

I wouldn't put anything lower than 42mm or even 45mm on.

What was the "standard" price of the rims, and the tire seperatly?
With a 38mm instead of 50mm, the wheel hub inside is 12mm closer to the centre of the car.
That would create LESS load on the bearings, as it sticks out less distance..

With the stock width wheel this would bring it closer to the inside of the wheel well, but as these are narrower wheels it works out to put the centre of the tire in the same place, so the combintion of the offset and wheel width work out to the same wheel centreline within a couple of mm..

They quoted the wheels to me at $156, the tires at $254.33

If we do a group buy the tires drop to $220 and the wheels to $130

Install/balance is $12 per wheel, and stems are $2.95 per wheel.
Torque wrench install, no air.
KAL tires have branches all over the west, and as far east as Thunder Bay.
I hve to tell my salesman the names and cities to register people on the group buy, and he simply enters the info on his computer so that others can find the quote reference.

Total installed group buy price is $1,459.80
Add local taxes to suit.

I will take a few pics of the wheels today and post later.
They weigh 20 lbs. per wheel.

See:
http://www.kaltire.com/locations/locations.php?page=locations

This morning John at Talon Tire tried several rims on my RX-8, which I submitted as the guinea pig.

Unfortunately nothing fit - yet. Some 16-inch rims didn't clear the front brake caliper, which is larger than the rear one, and the 17" rim cleared it but was not "hub-centric", meaning the central hole of the rim was not sitting flush againt the hub. Some shops, according to John, will sell and mount rims that fit in this manner but he does not adhere to this practice, which he considers substandard. Ring adapters were out of the question but I didin't quite catch the reason, something about a required bevel missing from an inside edge of the rim.

Now that he knows exactly what to look for, John will contact his mag wheel suppliers on Tuesday to discuss the specifications (16 or 17 inch rims, 7 or 7.5 inch width, proper caliper clearance) and get more rims in - then I'll be happy to go back in for more test fittings. Also, John agreed to join this forum and post the details of todays "experiments" and his future determinations directly into this thread. Please look for his postings here in the coming days. Since I'm not an expert in this area, it is best to reserve for him any technical questions I'm sure you will have, after he makes his first posting.

I did let John know how much we appreciated his opening on Saturday of Labor Day Weekend for us. By coincidence, his shop is only about 2 minutes away from my work and so I'll be able to pop by for fittings during or close to normal working hours.

Don't worry, a solution will be found.

Canada,

Please have John also consider which 18" rims will fit. Depending upon cost, I might go for the LM-22's.

Thanks for your efforts, Canada. FWIW, hub-centricity is a nice-to-have, as it makes it easier to get the lugs properly centred when tightening, but otherwise is not essential and the importance of it has been greatly overblown. As far as I'm concerned, forget hub-centricity - if it's got a bolt pattern of 5x114.3, offset between 42 and 50 (38 puts more stress on the bearings than 50 - canzoomer, I think you have your planes of reference confused), and 16" that clears the front brakes (and is relatively lightweight), I'd buy them.

Were there any 16s that cleared the front calipers? What 17s cleared, but weren't hubcentric? Specs and details, please, if possible!

Regards,
Gordon

I'll remind John to compile his summary with answers to your questions, and to post it ASAP.

Thanks Canada! Oh and thanks to John!

canzoomer, the rim pricing you specified is great! $130 a rim is $30 cheaper than what I have been quoted so far. But the tire pricing is $40 higher than compariable tires from bridgstone, Dunlop, Toyo and Yokohama.

And there are no dealers in my area, canzoomers deal might be great for westerners! Although I'm not sure about the offset thing.

Guess we'll wait and see what transpires over the next few days.

P.S. Montreal roads are SOOOO DAMN ROUGH! I swear every park of my car rattled while driving through montreal. As soon as I high Ontario, NO MORE RATTLES! Crazy!

P.S.S. Saw a yellow RX8 on service road in Dorion 10am yesterday.

Thanks Canada & Johnfor what you've done so far, and for the work you will contnue to do to get us proper wheels and tires.

Winter is still months away, but like everything else, time has a way of creeping up on you rather quickly.

I take it by the responses that there is nobody on this topic thread interested in a group buy in the west?

If not I will not bother with posting any more info on this.

Thanks!

Wing... our roads are the worst in the universe !! I love driving to Vt or ontario just to experience the smoothness of a normally made road.

The 20 to Québec city is fine though and the 40 is pretty good as well.

Originally posted by canzoomer
I take it by the responses that there is nobody on this topic thread interested in a group buy in the west?

Sorry, I hadn't responded specifically to this - I'm interested in winter wheels and tires, and am interested in any details and group buys / deals! I'd sooner buy locally than from a national provider if the price is better. But, it seems you and I have different thoughts on the appropriate winter solution, so I'm not sure that what works for you will suit me as well... If they're a bit flexible on what wheels or tire sizes to use, then count me in!

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG


But, it seems you and I have different thoughts on the appropriate winter solution, so I'm not sure that what works for you will suit me as well...

Gord,

I'm no expert in winter tires and rims, especially for the RX-8. Posting different thoughts on this thread will better help me in deciding what's best here in the GTA. Please continue providing your input. It is appreciated.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG


Sorry, I hadn't responded specifically to this - I'm interested in winter wheels and tires, and am interested in any details and group buys / deals! I'd sooner buy locally than from a national provider if the price is better. But, it seems you and I have different thoughts on the appropriate winter solution, so I'm not sure that what works for you will suit me as well... If they're a bit flexible on what wheels or tire sizes to use, then count me in!

Regards,
Gordon

The offer was not limited to just those tires/wheels.
I went to them as they are retty well the sole dealers for Nokian, and those have a very good rep for winter tires.

Let me know what you want and i can ask them..

Originally posted by canzoomer
Let me know what you want and i can ask them..

OK, here goes:

16" alloy wheel - 5x114.3 pattern, 42 to 50mm offset, under 16 lbs weight, must clear front brake caliper.

If it clears front calipers, is under 16 lbs, and around 45mm offset, then tire choices:

1st 16" size choice: 215/60-16,

Acceptable tire choices in that size:
Goodyear Eagle UltraGrip GW3
Michelin Pilot Alpin Next Generation
Pirelli Winter210 SnowSport

2nd 16" size choice: 205/60-16,

Acceptable tire choices in that size:
Goodyear Eagle UltraGrip GW3
Michelin Pilot Alpin Next Generation
Pirelli Winter210 SnowSport

3rd 16" size choice: 225/55-16

Acceptable tire choices in that size:
Blizzak LM-22
Goodyear Eagle UltraGrip GW3
Michelin Pilot Alpin Next Generation
Pirelli Winter210 SnowSport
Toyo Garit HT
Toyo Snowprox S950
Yokohama AVS Winter V901

If a light 16" alloy rim can't be found that clears the front brakes, then

2nd wheel choice: 17x7" alloy 5x114.3, 42 to 50mm offset, under 17 lbs, must clear front brake caliper.

Acceptable 17" tire size: 215/55-17

Acceptable 17" winter tire choices in that size:

Michelin Pilot Alpin Next Generation
Pirelli Winter210 SnowSport

The Goodyear GW3, Michelin Pilot Alpin NG, and Yoko AVS Winter V901, are all new to the Canadian market this year. The GW3 came out tops in German winter tire tests last year, and the other two are very promising.

Thanks!

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG


OK, here goes:

16" alloy wheel - 5x114.3 pattern, 42 to 50mm offset, under 16 lbs weight, must clear front brake caliper.


I doubt you will find 16's to fit.
Best bet is to drop by a KAL Tire and ask them, they are very friendly about test fitting i found..
If you want 16" wheels under 16 lbs, you pretty well have to buy forged wheels. Pretty expensive for winter wheels.



Thanks!

Regards,
Gordon

I think it is best you simply drop by one of their stores..

I did not find any 45mm offset wheels, low cost, that fit.
I tried some with 38 offset in 17" x 7" and they cleared with ample room. I could stick my fist between them and the shock towers.

Regarding tires, they sell at least:
Bridgestone, Firestone, Michelin, Nokian, Kumho, and Yokohama.
In the store i also saw Federal, and Falken.

Originally posted by canzoomer
I doubt you will find 16's to fit.
Best bet is to drop by a KAL Tire and ask them, they are very friendly about test fitting i found..
If you want 16" wheels under 16 lbs, you pretty well have to buy forged wheels. Pretty expensive for winter wheels.

I'm sceptical too about finding 16s that fit, but I know clearances vary significantly from wheel to wheel, and a contact with Mazda North America Operations told me back in July that the OEM RX-8 16" wheels would clear the big brakes on the OEM 18" wheel cars, so I do hold out some faint hope!

There's actually quite a few 16" wheels that are under 16 lbs and are reasonably priced, cast alloy wheels. For example, at www.tiretrends.com the Konig Holes in 16x7 is $220 per wheel and is under 15 lbs. A search there or at www.1010tires.com (both Canadian) shows 16 different wheels in 16x7, correct offset (between 42 and 50), and under $300 ea. The shop www.machiii.net sells Rota wheels for great prices out of the US, and there are several models of Rotas in 16" at 15 lbs ea for $500US/set. Both Konig and Rota have developed very good reputations for building strong yet light wheels that are affordable (not all models are light, but quite a few are).

What we need are some test fits of different 16" alloy wheels to prove or eliminate that option!!!

Regards,
Gordon

Hey, what's going on with Talon Canada?

I might call them today. Interested in finding out what's up!

It's getting COLD fast!

I dropped by the Talon Tire shop at lunch hour today and asked John to post his progress here. He promised to do so by Friday night!

I am not going to be buying winter wheels that cost over $200 each.

However others may want to. Just not in my budget..

If you really want 16" I am sure there are some that are available that might fit, but worrying about weight being around 16 lbs strikes me as odd, considering the stock 18" weight about 20 lbs each.

Anyway, I am sticking with 17's and the Nokian WS in 225/45/17.
One benefit I see is that this size is 5% smaller diameter than the stock wheel/tires, so the speedo calibration will be more accurate, and this effectively reduces the final gear ratio by about 5% too, which will help performance a bit at lower speeds.

I think that the 45 sidewalls will also look better than higher ones.

Originally posted by canzoomer
worrying about weight being around 16 lbs strikes me as odd, considering the stock 18" weight about 20 lbs each

IMHO, the stock wheels are too heavy - Mazda made a mistake (concession to popular style) by using 18s on the RX-8. There's no such thing as too little unsprung weight. I'm betting that lighter wheels and tires will improve the ride and responsiveness. Since those winter wheels and tires will be on the car for 5 or 6 months of every year, I'd rather invest a few dollars more for good wheels that are light, strong, and attractive, enhance rather than detract from the characteristics of the car, and not have to avoid looking at black steelies for half the year!

Originally posted by canzoomer

One benefit I see is that this size is 5% smaller diameter than the stock wheel/tires, so the speedo calibration will be more accurate

Actually, that will throw it further out (less accurate). I had my GPS mounted for the entire time of my road trip, and the speedo always showed about 1.5 mph faster than the true speed (about 2 to 3 km/h faster). Mounting smaller diameter tires will make the speedo show even more over the true speed, causing a larger error.

Regards,
Gordon

Gord, that's good news, so when I'm going 110 I'm really going 107, PERFECT :)

You should be able to get 17" Alloys with 50mm offset for under $200. tiretrends.com has a set for $169. A local shop quoted me $175.

I'm hoping John can do better :) that's why I called them to begin with.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG


IMHO, the stock wheels are too heavy - Mazda made a mistake (concession to popular style) by using 18s on the RX-8.


Agreed, but I would want to sell those and get others if I wanted to do something about it, rather than jump way down to 16's instead.

I guess it is a matter of timing mostly. Right now I am concerned about winter wheels and tires, and the rest can wait.
Others may choose a different order.
In either case it is becoming a moot point.
Yesterday it was pointed out that we did not get block heaters.
Further investigation is leading me to believe that ther is no way to install a block heater.
There is another thread on this already, so enough said.
Buyback looking better all the time.


Actually, that will throw it further out (less accurate). I had my GPS mounted for the entire time of my road trip, and the speedo always showed about 1.5 mph faster than the true speed (about 2 to 3 km/h faster). Mounting smaller diameter tires will make the speedo show even more over the true speed, causing a larger error.

Regards,
Gordon

I too used a GPS to test the speedo accuracy.
Results:
Speedo Actual
60 57
80 76
100 95
120 114

Yes, you are right, smaller wheels will result in a bigger difference.
My brain was not engaged when I thought it would improve it.
Crappy..

Sweet, that is 2 that confirm basically the same thing with a GPS.

Which means if a cop is pacing me and I'm going 110, they are LOOSERS because I'm really going like 105 and well nobody gets stopped for that on a 100Km/h highway!

OK, so basically our speedo overestimates our spead ALL the time?? So i'll cruis at 120 and be well withing the SAFETY zone.. (under 120)

There's some sort of federal requirement (in most countries, I'd guess) that a speedometeer can not indicate less than the actual speed of a vehicle. To allow for normal tolerances and variations, EVERY manufacturer builds their vehicles so that the speedo reads slightly higher than the actual speed. My actual speed was closer to indicated than canzoomers, which illustrates the normal production variations possible. So I wouldn't say WELL within the safety zone - if you're indicating 120, you're doing between 116 and 118...

Regards,
Gordon

That's good enough, i went through a radar trap at 119 this pm and was checking my rearview mirror .... he didn't move !! Thanks guys , i learn a few new things everyday on the forum.

Hi Guys here are the resultd as promised. BTW some of this info might have already been placed as I took the time to read all 7 pages of posts.

15" Steel - Will not fit brakes are too big.

16" Steel - Fits on the hubs but touches brake calipers front and rear. (It touches the outside face of the caliper not the top. ) I was using a stock Mazda rim with a 45mm offset. I may want to try another if I can source another Mazda rim with a different offset.

Proper 16" tire sizing would be 215/60-16 overall diameter = 26.2"

17" Steel - This wheel was supplied by one of my suppliers as I was advised by wing that they had it in stock to try. This wheel did fit the car and cleared perfectly, but was not Hubcentric and had an offset of 38mm. Talon Tire will not consider this wheel as an option as from our past experiences we have found that non-hubcentric wheels do tend to cause vibrations when used on vehicles and can damage suspension components after long term use.

We understand many garages will supply these wheels as a cheap alternative but we will not. Every single car sold from any dealer in the world comes equipted with hubcentric wheels! Why would they if it wasn't?

Steel wheels can't be centered using hub rings.

As for 17" mags my suppliers have confirmed a 17" mag with as offset between 40-50 will fit the car. Anyone interested in pricing should PM me as I would not want to upset the forum moderators.

Proper 17" tire sizing would be 215/55-17 overall diameter would be = 26.3"

You could also run 225/45-18 overall diameter = 26"
In citites(Like Montreal) where they use a lot of salt you would be advised to wash the wheels as often as possible.


Hubcenter Bore should be = 67.1
Bolt Pattern is = 5x114.3

I can also mention shipping to Ottawa & Toronto will be from $35 - $38

I can also mention shipping to Winnipeg & Manitoba will be from $50 - $60

I can also mention shipping to Vancouver will be from $55 - $65

I would also suggest using a unidirectional tire on rear wheel drive cars for best winter traction.

I'll post more info when it becomes available.

Thanks, Talon Tire, for that extensive info.

But (sorry!), what about 16" alloy wheels? Cheaper than 17s, better selection of less expensive 16" winter tires. We really need to find out about these before committing to 17" alloys! Please? ;)

Thanks,
Gordon

Thanks for the great info!

Now like Gord mentioned, what about 16" alloy, that would be the next best, than 17" alloy.

As far as pricing, let's figure out if we can get 16" alloys first. If we can't then, maybe we can work a package out.

Seems like there are a few people interested.

I'll PM you, as I'm interested to know the price :)

Thanks for the work Talon Tires.

I've PM'ed you for prices. I'm definitely driving in the winter. I'm game for the 17" wheels and tires or even going to an 18" tire. I'd prefer the 17" option though.

Thanks a lot for the info Talon Tire! I have a couple of questions about the 16" steel wheels. You said:
16" Steel - Fits on the hubs but touches brake calipers front and rear. (It touches the outside face of the caliper not the top. ) I was using a stock Mazda rim with a 45mm offset. I may want to try another if I can source another Mazda rim with a different offset.
1) What direction were you thinking of going with the offset to help clear the outside face of the calipers (more negative or less negative)?
2) Since you didn't mention the issue of hub centicity with the 16's does that mean they were ok?
3) You were going to try to source them from Mazda - should we start bugging Mazda to make sure that they deal with sourcing us (or you ;))a reasonable winter driving option?

I really appreciate your time - Thanks!

I'm interested in buying. Has anyone decided on coordinating?
e-mail: gordonjamesboyd@yahoo.ca
pick-up location: Toronto
Tel. No. 519-797-3436

I'll monitor for what next steps are.

Thanks,
Gord Boyd

Gord, yes I started the thread and initially contacted John at Talon Tire.

"Canada" the user not the country, so graciously took time out of his schedule to attempt fittings at Talon Tire.

We intially had about 10 people interested in this group buy. Hopefully something comes to fruition and we get a killer deal from John ;)

I am still in, but I don't see a proposal yet -

16"?
17"?
What do the proposed rims look like?
What are our tire choices?

and of course, $$?
.
.
.
doc

Hi Guys,

I'm in as well... pickup from a Toronto Location (I live in Pickering). Please PM me once details are confirmed...

-Ron

Talon is a local shop in Montreal, so it would be a direct shipment from montreal (no pst to out of province purchasers!)

I'm going to call John again today to get more information.

We are still working on this, more details should follow shortly!

Ok I called John, I have a few answers to some of the questions.

1. Was the 16" Steel Hubcentric?

Yes it was, it was a Mazda wheel, as John previously mentioned he is trying to find 1 wheel to try that he thinks might fit. He is trying to find it for a fitting.

2. Will a 16" alloy fit?

According to John's suppliers, unfortunately no. This is because 16" high offset alloys are harder to find. It is possible if a higher offset (50-55) is found that one would fit. But again this is a "can we find one to test it" Obviously he can't be ordering wheels in that he will never sell if they don't fit!

3. How MUCH?
Well we really don't want to speculate at this point, we would like to try this last steel if we can. This would be the best and I'm sure many would by VERY happy with the results. If we go alloy we will be probably looking at $170 a rim.

BUT John mentioned this all depends on how many people are looking to purchase. More people = less money :) and remember if you are not in QC you don't have to pay PST so this could be a very large savings on tires and rims.

I have a question though, if we do get steel, what about hub caps? I know I don't want to be staring at black steelies for 6 months, I'd love some nice hubs to at least hide the uglyness :D

Also John said that his internet was on the Fritz and he actually had to go to a friends house to post the originaly message. So let's bear with him while his internet is under repair and he looks for this last wheel to fit.

We should still be about 2 months from snow, usually doesn't snow till Oct 30th :)

I was in, and I'm still in. I'd prefer alloy so the car looks GREAT year round, but I'll go with what the group decides is best for us. My pick-up would be in Toronto similar to Ron Jeremy's.

I'm still interested!

I spoke with Bob at www.tiretrends.com yesterday (in Vancouver) - he's hoping to take a couple of 16" alloys to a Mazda dealer and test fit on an RX-8 if possible this week. If that doesn't work out, then I have asked to test fit a 16" wheel (the 16" Konig Holes, 5x114.3, 42mm offset). I'd cover shipping costs, and Bob would send it to me, then I'd send it back and either get 3 more plus tires mounted, or get the 17" version.

Of the wheels TireTrends offers, I'm a fan of some of the Konigs - the Holes and Heliums are lightweight, yet proven strong, and aren't expensive - the Holes in 16" are $220, the 17" are $255. For a proven strong, light wheel, those are great prices.

Regards,
Gordon

Wing - I'm in on the group buy, assuming we come up with a steel solution. Will need shipping cost info to St. John's, NF as well.

canzoomer - seems like a Western buy won't happen here? The one-size-fits-all pricing for shipping within Canada was interesting from your guy.

Wel,this did not start, as 2 others responded, so go for it on your own, I guess.

I for one will not be needing them now, as I will not have an RX-8 soon ( I hope).

People seem to be ignoring the Nokians, which have a very good reputation.

If you guys are looking for group buy participants, I'm in also, but will not know for sure until after Oct 1. I've been down in New York a lot this month and have a dealer down there looking for a snow tire solution and neither he nor Mazda USA has come up with anything yet. Having done a lot of RWD winter driving my preference is for steel and skinny.

Am I the only one that thinks Mazda has not done their homework on this car? Between less HP, lousy mileage (our Suburban gets better mileage towing a big boat), and this snow tire problem the buyout is beginning to look appealing despite the fact that after 1 month we really, really like the car.

And why is it that you guys have to do all this running around for wheels and tires. The dealer or Mazda Canada should have a snow tire package available or at least a suggestion. And when I asked about a block heater all I got was a blank stare. It all makes me wonder which genius at Mazda was responsible for marketing to cold weather countries.

Anyway thanks for the vent, please keep me in the loop with your plans for the snows.

You are right. This is so silly.
Selling cars in Canada and the northern USA with no forethought about wheels, tires and block heaters is a bit short sighted.

The base RX-8 in Japan comes with 16" alloy wheels that fit properly, and would be an easy choice for people to use for their snow tires.

Of course, being Genuine Mazda Parts they would probably be ridiculously expensive, but still..

I suggested this to my dealer and Mazda Canada and they did not know anything about this.

I guess the blame is to Mazda head office for not letting them know. Still, i I were in the business of selling htis car, I would make a bit more effort to be aware..

That is just the whole car industry attitude over here, I suppose..

canzoomer:

we all appreciate that you are upset. let it go. Please complain in the lounge and please do not interrupt a thread that is trying to accomplish something.

I'm sure we all appreciate hearing from you, and hope you are feeling better having made your decision, but could you please keep it to the lounge. Or write a doucment that expresses your concerns, post it for us, and send it off to Mazda. I'm sure they will appreciate your input if you present it in a constructive manner.

So I can't wait to see your complait letter. I'm drafting one now. I will be mentioning many of the issues you raised (and I understand the envelope thing was a metaphor).

Hey, Maurice, take it easy, buddy.
Sleep is important too. And quit smoking!!!
We appreciate your input on ideas for winter rims and tires.
I mailed off my accept offer letter today. I am not giving up my 8! Enjoy it while you still get to drive it!!!


other thread contributors: sorry just had to say that. Great info so far guys....its just getting rims that fits..it seems. Is the technical info posted so far enough to determine whether rims fit?? (ie is the break clearance issue covered in the numbers) or does one have to maunally attempt to fit the rim individually.

I'm looking at a sweet pair of "17" x 7.5 alloys for not too bad a price, that I think i might use with some nice winter tires. I'm thinking about online ordering, and don't want to have to worry about them arriving and not fitting. Nobody seems to have fitment information.

I will post the link to the products if anyone is interested.

Don't really have much more to say...I've learned a lot so far. Thanks!!

aside: Here I agree with maurice that someone through mazda should be assisting us with a "winter package" (including hooking us up with rims tires, hell even the ski bag) or at least be able to provide us with numerical specifications that allow us to buy rims elsewhere that we know can fit.

Oh lay off it, for Gods sake.

I suggested that if you want genuine Mazda wheels, that you KNOW fit your car properly, ASK THE DEALER!

Mazda have them. It is the base wheel.
The 18" are the option!

You can buy non functional spoilers, side strakes, chrome gas filler caps, leather gee gaws, NAV systems with no maps for most of the country, but not winter wheels and tires in Canada???

All I was doing was agreeing with the other fellow in the point that car makers should think of these things.

All car makers.
Yes, I said I am getting an Audi. A car from Germany, wher ethey have winter. And yet it came with stupid summer semi-racing tires.
Mazda I could almost forgive. They are a company in Japan.
But they DID pick items and options they thought would sell in Canada. Do you realize what a big opportunity they have missed here? If half the owners buy wheel and tires that is $750 or more per car they sell on average. That's a 2%add on to gross sales.
And at really good markups.
If the dealers sold this stuff there probably would even be a reason for this thread.

If you are going to buy a car up here it is a really good chance that you might want to buy winter tires and a block heater.

It would also be a brilliant idea if they offered all season tires, instead of just putting summer gumballs on cars, with a wear rating of 160, that do not last too long.

Nissan, Mazda, Toyota, Honda, and so on. They ALL DO IT!

Maybe you want those kind of tires.
But at 0C ( 32 F for the Yanks) these tires are not only impractical, they are dangerous. When cold these tires have the grip properties of a pair of roller skates. On ice they might as well be made of iron.

They offer you the choice of leather or cloth, Bose or cassette players, and so on, but can not seem to get the idea that a basic functional and safety item like tires might be best offered in some useful choices.

They put ABS, traction control, 8 air bags, side pillars, collapsing bodywork, huge front and rear bumpers, seat belts, all to meet the goal of safety. Then they put on a set of tires that are unsafe in at least half theyear on these cars.

Look at us, new cars, and we are immediately out spending at least $1,500 so we can use our cars for 3/4 of the year.

Does not this strike you as odd???

Don't rant on my ass becasue I pointed out something that is bloody obvious.
Go to your damned dealer and ask them to do your job in making your car useful for where you live and where they sell it.

So, flame the guy that brought it up, or get off my ass.

Cool. I just discovered the ignore list. I'll have to use that more often.

Originally posted by canzoomer
Go to your damned dealer and ask them to do your job in making your car useful for where you live and where they sell it.


I did go to my dealer, and he has offered me several winter tire packages, including 17" and 18" options.

What he does do is use aftermarket wheels and not Mazda wheels, but the dealer is trying to keep me on the road in the winter.

My dealer is Performance Mazda in Ottawa.

I am looking for what the group buy can offer as a price improvement. Then I can bargan with Performance Mazda or take the group price.

Sounds like you have a dealer who is on the ball!

mdmclean,

I'm in for whatever you might be doing with performance.
How has the service been so far?

Originally posted by funksoulbrother
mdmclean,

I'm in for whatever you might be doing with performance.
How has the service been so far?

Except for asking about snow tires, I have not had the car in for service. I have about 1400km on it now.

Enough guesswork! TireTrends (in Vancouver, www.tiretrends.com ) has made arrangements with a local Mazda dealer to take 2 16" alloys and 2 17" alloys over to test fit them on an RX-8. This is booked for Tuesday, so we'll have definite answers about a couple of 16" options or non-options then.

Sorry Eastern guys that want to buy local, but Talon Tire seems to be missing in the 16" alloy questions, and Tire Trends has a great reputation for internet service for Canadians and is making the effort to answer our questions! (I had asked them about shipping me a wheel or two at my expense to test-fit, and they offered to take the time to test fit locally. That's customer service!)

Here's the wheels they're trying (look them up on their web site to see what they look like):I have 4 prospective wheels to test on the RX8 for winter fit rims. I am going to be testing a 16x7 ET42 Konig Holes, A 16x7 ET45 FRD6, A 17x7 ET48 FRD30, and a 17x7 ET45 FRD 2, 6, and 8 (these three are all the same fit). I have made a deal with the local Mazda dealer to test the fit on a new RX8 on Tuesday and will let you all know the results...

Regards,
Gordon

Any news on this?

It seems they were too busy to get to the Mazda dealer yesterday - they've promised to try again today (Wednesday). (Their shipping guy is sick or something, so everyone else is helping out to get current orders out the door).

Regards,
Gordon

Apparently Talon Tire is also about to try a Steel 16"!

Just trying to get ahold of "Canada" from montreal to go test fit it.

Ok it seems like no 16" alloy will fit either :(

But we have some 17" alloys that will fit for sure, tiretrends has been great going down to a dealer and trying them.

I'm going to call talon tomorrow and see what they have to say as well.

Kal Tire also has 17" x 7" and 7.5" that fit. I tried them on my car, no issues.

They are offering $130 a wheel if you mention the "RX-8 Group Buy"

I just ordered my winter setup from Bob at www.tiretrends.com.

Wheels are Konig Holes (http://www.tiretrends.com/wheel_catalog.php3?wheelID=262 ) , 17x7, bolt pattern 5x114.3, offset 45mm, weight 16.1 lbs. They're pricier than others offered at $255, but cheaper wheels like the FRD30 are 21 lbs each or more. My Mazda $500 is going towards the lighter wheels! Since the car will be wearing these for 5 months + every year, I figured I shouldn't shortchange it - I'll appreciate the lighter wheels every winter every year!

For tires, I chose the Pirelli Winter210 SnowSport (http://www.tiretrends.com/catalog2.php3?tireID=344 ), size 215/55-17. They are very slightly taller than OEM, but one width narrower, so should bite better in snow.

I should have them within a week!

Regards,
Gordon

Gord; thanks for this info. I'll order mine same way
I think. Is there a penalty for Toronto destination?
Can anyone recommend a Toronto address/individual to
coordinate deliveries?
gb

I spoke with Bob at tire trends a few minutes ago. They ship via Purolator. If you purchase tires with the wheels, they will mount, balance and ship to us in the GTA. He quoted me $1810.10 for 17" FRD 6 wheels and the same tires Gord bought. Wheels are $169 right now, but heavier than what Gord bought. Tires are $236.40. That price includes everything to the door here in the GTA.

Just wondering if you need someone to coordinate as they will ship directly to your door.

Next question. Where's Talon Tire in this?

Guys, Talon is suppose to post something TONIGHT!

They are trying the last resort steel wheel. John said he would check group pricing for the alloys, but he said he doesn't sell that many of that type so his price is not as good as tiretrends.

Hopefully he will post tonight and we will know for sure!

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
I should have them within a week!

Well... it turns out that TireTrends didn't have the 17" Holes in stock, so while they test fit the 16" version and other 17" wheels this week, they're not 100% certain that the spokes on the 17" Konig Holes clears the side of the brake caliper! So they'll get the wheels in Mon or Tues, and if they can arrange for another test fit they will, otherwise they'll send me 1 wheel to test.

As for the tires - Pirelli had previously told them the W210 in this size were in stock, but when TireTrends went to order them this afternoon Pirelli said that they were supposed to be in, but hadn't arrived yet. So my order isn't quite as firm as I'd have liked yet!

Regards,
Gordon

I hope you find that those 17" rims actually clear the calipers. Yesterday I went to Talon Tire where we tried another 16" steel rim from the US. Although it did fit great on the rear, hub-centric and all, it wouldn't fit on the front because of the brake calipers.

We will press on, relentlessly (sigh), with more rims as Talon Tire gets them in to test out.

Ok, well I'm convinced that we will have to go with 17" alloys.

Now we'll see if Talon Tire can get us a good price on wheels. He told me that his price might not be so good on the alloys :(

I guess he will look into them now.

I posted another thread "Talon Tire Group Buy"

Talon was able to beat Tiretrends wheel pricing, which is great! And they are still looking into a 16" alloy.

Also the group buy is not a 1 item purchase, you can pick and choose, as long as well ALL buy he's game for a discount!

I'd be interested, but I really want a lighter wheel than the 21-lb 17" FRD30. Talon's website doesn't even show wheels or weights - how are we to know what they offer or can get?

Regards,
Gordon

I think they can get anything, you can search 1010tire or tiretrends, his pricing would be similar. He beat tiretrends pricing for the FRD30.

He can order whatever, if your interested I can call or you can call and find out what his price is.

Let's roll it back a couple of months to the great winter tire size debate ...

Gord purchased 215/55/17
canzoomer seemed pretty commited to 205/55/17

My math agrees with canzoomer, the 205 is closer to the stock diameter. Gord's logic that smaller contact patch is better for winter (I agree with that) seems to point at the 205 as the superior option. Obviously tire selection in the different sizes will influence things heavily.

Good luck finding 205/55/17 THAT'S the problem!

Originally posted by Wing
Good luck finding 205/55/17 THAT'S the problem!
You are right. They are almost all 50, not 55.. Apparently 205/55/17 is not a standard size.
You CAN go to a 215 instead and preserve teh 55% ratio, or live with 50.
Still 50 is OK as it falls within our speedometer error range in most cases.

1010 tires offered me a couple of good choices in that, and KAL tire has Nokian in that too.
But i opted for the Nokian WS (all season) in 225/45/R17.
It is a better choice for us who are not in heavy snow zones, but who have to do a lot of driving on ice, light snow, and in wet conditions. It is a tire that does all seasons well except summer, but that is what we have our original tires and wheels for.

Anyway, some choices:
Michelin Pilot Alpin Next Generation in 215/55/17
http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?tirebrand=Michelin&tiremodel=Pilot%AEAlpin%AE+Next+Generation

Bridgestone Blizzak LM22 205/50/17
http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?tirebrand=Bridgestone&tiremodel=Blizzak+LM%2D22tirebrand=Bridgestone&tiremodel=Blizzak+LM%2D22

Pirelli Winter 240 Snowsport 205/50/17
http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?tirebrand=Pirelli&tiremodel=Winter+240+Snowsport

It's kind of funny that you guys revived this thread right after I ordered my winter tires from Tire Rack. I went with the narrowest size that I could find (205/50r17) and figured that the small amount of speedometer error was an acceptable trade-off for the increased snow traction.

After listening to Gord96BRG push the Pirelli Winter SnowSports I decided to go with:

Pirelli Winter 240 SnowSport 205/50VR17
Kazera KZ-V 17x7

What did everyone else purchase?

I've been dealing with www.tiretrends.com , and they've gone through the tire availability of the different models with me. They can not get any of the Pirelli Winter210 215/55-17s from Pirelli yet, so now I'm getting the Toyo Garit HT in 215/55-17. Their contacts at Michelin now tell them that they will not be bringing the Pilot Alpin NG to Canada this year in the 215/55-17 size, even though 1010Tires shows it. It's pretty hard to sort out the truth when all the online vendors are showing different variations on available sizes and models! :mad:

My concern with the shorter diameter tires wasn't so much the speedo error but simply the slight reduction in ground clearance. It's only fractions of inches, so it shouldn't really be a problem. I found it interesting that Tire Rack recommends the 225/50-17 size for the RX-8 since TR normally pushes narrower tires for winter use, so I went to the Bridgestone web site and a few other manufacturers' web sites, and found from the spec sheets that even though their winter sizes are nominally 225 (say 225/50-17), the actual tread width runs about 1/2" narrower than a 225 nominal width on a summer tire. The WS-50 vs. RE-040 OEM size is a good example of this. So even a 225 winter tire is slightly narrower than the OEM tire.

PS - the 17x7 Konig Holes wheel just barely clears the outside of the brake caliper - clearance is about 3 or 4 mm! There's a possibility that the valve stem wouldn't clear the caliper - I have to get a valve stem fitted to my test wheel and check again. Based on the tight clearance on this wheel, I can't imagine that any 16" alloy could clear those giant front brakes, despite 2 assurances now that Mazda's RX-8 OEM 16" wheels do clear the GT/Sport/CDN front brakes.

Regards,
Gordon

Gordon,
Thanks for the detailed response. I'll make sure that I test fit the wheels as soon as I receive them just to make sure that I will not have any clearance problems.

Originally posted by Speed Racer
I'll make sure that I test fit the wheels as soon as I receive them just to make sure that I will not have any clearance problems.

I think Tire Rack is pretty good about test-fitting before they recommend wheels. Those Kazera wheels look pretty good - 17 lbs for the 17" size, and the price is great even after shipping/duty/exchange. I've been tempted on several occasions in the past month to forget about the Konig wheels and just order from Tire Rack!

Regards,
Gordon

I got my wheels and tires installed today.

17" wheels, and Nokian Hakka WR All Season 225/45/R17's

Cost me $130 each for the wheels, $231.21 each for the tires.
With install balance, chrome valve stems and caps, GST, etc. I paid a total of $1,627.09 to KAL Tire here in Edmonton.

Nice clearance, and they feel quite good on dry pavement.

I will post pics tomorrow.

I received my winter tires (17x7 Kazera KZ-V w/ Pirelli Winter SnowSport) today and installed one to make sure they would fit. I had about 5mm of clearance between the caliper and the inside of the rim so it looks like it is all good! :)

P.S. There is extra space in the wheel well because I had just softly lowered the car from the jack.

Stock 18" vs. Kazera KZ-V 17"

Looks good!

I went with Core Rcing wheels in 7"x17" and Nokian Hakka WR all season/winter tires in 225/45/17 H

Cost of the wheels are a real deal at $130 each (Canadian, about $100 US) Tires were $231 Canadian each ( about $170 US)

Clearances are good.
Went with a 38mm offset.
Going from 50mm offset and 8" wheels you need to reduce offset by about 12mm to maintain the same wheel centre offset.
So 38mm is the correct offset for a 7" wide wheel.
Lots of room behind the wheels and to the brake calipers.

Picture 1:

Picture 2:

Picture 3:

Picture 4 (last one):

:cool: Those are nice looking wheels, canzoomer!

(Yours too, Speed Racer)

Nice wheels Canzoomer. Which retailer did you go with? If I can get those wheels for $130 each I'll order them too no question. Thanks. S.

KAL Tire.

Product code is S216770138H5BH

Regular price $155, RX-8 group buy price $130

http://www.kaltire.com/

Thanks canzoomer. I'll try to get the same deal from them. I didn't find any retailers in Toronto but I assume they'll deliver here.

I guess they will ship..

Want me to check for you?

I talked with the guy i dealt with at the local KAL Tire in Edmonton.
The regular price of these wheels, (Core Racing S216) is $159

They will honour a group buy price of $130 if I organize it and we make one purchase.

Other stores may or may not honour that, depending on how they feel about it.

They will ship in Canada.

One can contact the Edmonton, store at 780-451-5417 and speak to Orest

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the info canzoomer. I went to their web site and emailed them asking if I could get the same deal shipped to me. The answer was, and I quote: "Our business is all conducted out of our retail locations. Nearest to you is Thunder Bay. I'm afraid that we are too far from you to satisfy your purchasing needs."

I guess the concept of shipping is foreign to them! My search continues. I'll probably go with Talon Tire but damn I like those Core Racing wheels you've got!

I talked to the Edmonton store and they said they have no problems with shipping.
Each store is independantly managed I would guess..

780-451-5417
Ask for Orest

My winter wheels and tires have arrived! 17" Konig Holes (graphite w/polished rim), and Toyo Garit HT 215/55-17. Picture 1:

Set courtesy www.tiretrends.com - ask for Bob, mention Gord from Calgary sent you!

Picture 2:

Bonus result: the 17" Holes/Garit HT combo weighs 35.2 lbs - the OEM 18"/RE-040 combo weighs 41.2 lbs! These are 6 lbs lighter per corner.

Picture 3 - clearance is tight at front caliper, but it does clear!:

Gord,
Nice job with the Konig Holes. I think that they look great on your car. :)

Gord,

The wheels look great! Have you noticed any difference in handling with the lighter wheels? How is the road noise and cornering grip on those tires? I'm about to order the same tires so wondering if you're impressed with them so far. Thx. S.

Originally posted by Sharky
Have you noticed any difference in handling with the lighter wheels? How is the road noise and cornering grip on those tires?

The ride with the lighter wheels/tires does seem smoother. It's too early to tell how the cornering will be - they're still slick with the mould release compound (need to be broken in a few hundred km). Right now they feel pretty squirrely! Noise is pretty low - slightly noisier than the summer tires perhaps, but no howl like some winter tires!

Regards,
Gordon

Is there any further comment on the 38mm vs 45mm offset?

Remember tomorrow Oct. 31 is the last day to order & get the group discount on the FRD06 or FRD30 winter weels from Talon Tire. For details see my post of Oct 13 in the Talon Tire thread:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?threadid=11413&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Gord, Gord,......fantastic wheels, but you gotta do SOMETHING with those butt-ugly calipers!

Contrasting them with that deep dark wheel trim just makes them look......egregious. Sorry, storng words, but it had to be said!

Come on Gord, silver, grey, even a coat of heat-radiant matt black?

Come to the 'rice' side, Luke.....


S

Originally posted by Literatii
Is there any further comment on the 38mm vs 45mm offset?
One thing to consider:
If you are going from an 8" wide summer wheel to a 7" wide winter wheel, then the wheel width is 25mm smaller.

Therefore the centre of the tire is 12mm different.

This means that with a 7" wide winter wheel you need a 38mm offset instead of a 50.

Originally posted by StealthTL
Gord, Gord,......fantastic wheels, but you gotta do SOMETHING with those butt-ugly calipers!

:p I know, I know, I was seriously considering doing them up in gloss black when I mounted the winter wheels.

But - I don't have clearance between the caliper and winter wheels for a coat of paint! :eek: Seriously! On the left side wheels, they mounted some stick-on weights at exactly the point of minimum clearance, and the weights rubbed ever so slightly against the caliper. I wore off a mm or two from one-third the width of the stick-on weights in the first 10 km drive or so. I'll have to get the weights moved inboard an inch or so to get clearance for the coat of paint. Maybe next summer. :D

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by canzoomer
One thing to consider:
If you are going from an 8" wide summer wheel to a 7" wide winter wheel, then the wheel width is 25mm smaller.

Therefore the centre of the tire is 12mm different.

This means that with a 7" wide winter wheel you need a 38mm offset instead of a 50.

Sorry, canzoomer, I must disagree with your calculation here. The plane of reference for offset calculation is from the hub mounting surface to the centreline of the wheel, so width doesn't matter. A 1" narrower wheel of the same 50 mm offset simply has 0.5" less width on each of the inside and outside half of the wheel. My reference source for calculating offset this way is the Tire Rack Tech Center's offset info page (http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/offset.htm) .

The 38mm offset with the 1" narrower wheel will maintain the vehicle track the same as the OEM 50mm wheel (ie width between the outside vertical planes of the wheels), whereas a 1" narrower 50mm wheels will decrease the track by 1".

Tire Rack's article does say If the offset of the wheel is not correct for the car, the handling can be adversely affected. When the width of the wheel changes, the offset also changes numerically. If the offset were to stay the same while you added width, the additional width would be split evenly between the inside and outside. For most cars, this won't work correctly. This is very confusing - while they say that additional width for the same offset would be split evenly between the inside and outside, they don't follow on to explain why they say for most cars this won't work correctly! To my understanding, changing the offset will change the scrub radius (calculated through the centre of the contact patch), whereas just changing the width while keeping the same offset will keep the originally designed scrub radius for the suspension/wheel design.

In any case, I think anywhere from 38 to 50 mm would work satisfactorily on the RX-8.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by StealthTL
Come to the 'rice' side, Luke.....

:p Forgot to address this comment! Rice is in the eye of the beholder... or at least that's my hypocritical excuse. ;)

Have you ever seen pics of the wheels and calipers I did on my BRG Miata? I'm a Lotus fan, so my car's colour scheme is sort of a homage to the 60s vintage Lotus racing colours. You know, the BRG cars with yellow wheels? Here's a pic...

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Sorry, canzoomer, I must disagree with your calculation here. The plane of reference for offset calculation is from the hub mounting surface to the centreline of the wheel, so width doesn't matter. A 1" narrower wheel of the same 50 mm offset simply has 0.5" less width on each of the inside and outside half of the wheel.
Regards,
Gordon

And I disagree with YOU, Gordon!! {smile}

See:
http://toy4two.home.mindspring.com/offset.html

Enter, on the top row 8 and 50
Enter, on the next row 7 and 38

You will see that the outside of the wheel will move inwards 1mm (insignificant).

Now consider how rear suspension works on an RX-8.

The wheels move up and down, on an arc, with the centre of that arc on the pivot point of the suspension arms.

When the wheel travels downwards, the traction point moves towards the outside edge of the tire, away from the centre.

If you change the distance from the outside edge to the pivot point, then the total length of this assembly changes.
This means the leverage on the suspension changes too, as we have changed the length of a lever.
We ALWAYS want to keep the lever the same length, or the spring rates and damping rates will no longer be right.

What we want to do is to preserve the distance from the outside edge to the pivot point.

See:

Here is a good pictorial description of offset:
http://www.rx7turboturbo.com/robrobinette/wheel_offset.htm

As the caption about offset says:
Offset - Distance from the wheel center-line (CL) to the wheel mating surface - greater positive offset moves the tires inward (narrower track)

Therefore:
LESSER positive offset moves the tires OUTWARD (WIDER track)

If the wheels are 1" narrower, we need to compensate by moving the wheels outwards by 1/2" (12mm)
This is achived by REDUCING the positive offset by 12mm
So we need a wheel that has 12mm LESS offset than the stock wheels.

So, 50-12 = 38mm positive offset is required for a wheel that is 25mm (1") narrower than the originals.

Thanks for the pics canzoomer. I think I get it :o

knowing that my car will be here in the winter months. I asked dealer install the winter tires on the stock wheels before I pick it up. I do not know what brand winter tire dealer will use.

I am confused now ....

A) stock 18" wheels or 17" wheels for the winter?
should I order a set of the 17"wheels now and install the 17" winter. Leave the OEM wheels/tires for the summer.

B) Is it 18" winter/stock wheels just as good vs 17" for winter? Given 18" winter tire is already ordered. The 17" wheels/tire package is an alternatives (cost/choice). Then keep the 18" winter tire on stock wheel and buy a set new 18" wheels for summer OEM tires.

TY

17" wheels allow for tire with higher sidewall, makes choice of snow tires easier.
17" tires are less costly
17" wheels and tires allows for more wheel well clearance, so less issues with snow packing around tires and preventing steering
17" tires may have smaller contact patch allowing better snow traction.

17" wheels that clear the front brake calipers are a bit hard to find

17" x 7" is ( in my opinion) the best bet.

Narrower wheels offset is different than what you use for 18".
Use 38mm instead of 50mm offset for 17" x 7" wheels.

Originally posted by TY_888
I am confused now ....

A) stock 18" wheels or 17" wheels for the winter?
should I order a set of the 17"wheels now and install the 17" winter. Leave the OEM wheels/tires for the summer.

B) Is it 18" winter/stock wheels just as good vs 17" for winter? Given 18" winter tire is already ordered. The 17" wheels/tire package is an alternatives (cost/choice). Then keep the 18" winter tire on stock wheel and buy a set new 18" wheels for summer OEM tires.

I agree with Canzoomer on most of his points (I still don't agree about the offset - the wheel movement diagram only applies to a straight old-fashioned swing-arm rear suspension, a la early Beetles, Corvairs, etc. On a multi-link or unequal-length a-arm suspension, the camber curves (and camber curves with chassis roll) for suspension compression and droop will look entirely different. Rear suspension aside, I think the scrub radius of the front suspension with it's steering implications is of greater significance, and changing the offset will change the scrub radius. But, again, I think anywhere from 38 to 50 offset is fine, my 17" wheels are 45mm, so the offset issue is more theoretical than practical).

In another thread, I posted some figures comparing swapping 18" winter tires vs. buying a separate set of 17" winter wheels and tires, it went like this:
Just to play devil's advocate - how much will it cost each time you change over the tires for mounting/balancing - min $15/corner, say $60 per changeover? Twice/year, that's $120/year. Also, those 18" LM-22s cost $45 each more than the 17" LM-22 from Tire Rack.

If you bought the Tire Rack 17" Kazera wheels and LM-22s, it would cost you $1267. The tires will last 4 winters, at a guess. Then you just change them out yourself twice per year, at your convenience, at no extra cost.

If you buy the 18" LM-22s, it costs you 4x215 + 4x15 mounting/balancing, so $920 up front. Next year, it's $60 in spring, so $980 for one winter's use. After the next winter, the fall and spring changeover costs another $120, so 2 winters use is $1100. After the 3rd winter, it's $1220. Hmm, getting close to the cost of buying those separate 17" wheels and 17' tires! 4th winter, you've now spent $1340 for 4 winter's use of the 18" LM-22s, and your OEM 18" wheels are scratched all to hell from having tires remounted 8 times already. If you'd bought the separate wheels/tires up front, you'd have saved $70 by the 4th winter compared to having the bigger winter tires remounted twice/year.

BUT - now, 4 winters on, it's time to replace your winter tires with a new set. If you had the 17" LM-22s, that costs $676 plus mounting/balancing. If you're buying 18s again, that costs $860 plus mounting/balancing (current prices in both cases). Now, the 17" choice has saved you $70 plus another $180, so $250, and will then save you $120/yr for the next 4 years.

So, if you plan to drive your RX-8 for 4 winters or more - it's actually cheaper to buy the separate 17" wheels with winter tires!

Regards,
Gordon

I mainly agree with Gord.

One other factor to consider for winter tires is "how much snow vs how much ice vs how much clean roads?"

In general, we need to install some form of winter tire if we live in an area where we will drive on roads in conditions where driving temperatures will drop to below 38F (3C).

Summer tires, especially high performance tires like the Bridgestone Potenzas that come with the RX=8 are good for warm roads.

When the temperatures drop they then have characterisitics of a piece of rock. Traction rapidly becomes squirrelly, the tires have no flex, and on ANY amount of ice or snow they are like wearing roller blades on an ice rink. Totally dangerous.

When you are going to buy tires for winter, you have to look at the prevailing winter conditions in your area.

In some regions, it gets cold, but rarely snows, and you are usually driving on relatively dry roads.

For this condition the tire makers sell what are called "all season tires".
The problem with most of these is that the definition of "all season" varies quite a bit. In some cases it means wet, in others lower temperatures. In general, however, most of these are a really poor compromise.

There are some exceptions. For example the Nokian Hakka WR is an all-season that really means "Winter, with spring and summer, great on ice and light snow"

If you live in a region that gets fairly cold, with light and infrequent snowfalls, and lots of black ice and dry pavement, then this is good for you. Generally this means prairie regions in dry areas. Also good for areas further south that get infrequent snow or frost.

If you are in a region where you frequently get snow, especially wet snow, your requirement is qiute different. In this case you need a tire that can dig through the snow to get traction, with a fairly small contact patch to allow the weight to push the patch through the snow. You also need pretty large cuts between tire blocks to allow it tio "paddle" through snow without plugging up.
This is for regions with large amounts of precipitation. Mountain regions, coastal cold areas, and inland lake regions.
Once the snow season ends, get them off soon. Snow tires generally handle poorly on paecment, and wear quickly.

In the last case, where you are driving in mainly cold conditions, where the roads rarely thaw, but not much snow, you need an ice tire.
Generally these have similar treads to an "all season" but of a softer compound when cold, with lots of fine cuts, called "snipes" in the treads. Usually the tire compound has a high silicone content.
Good for US northern inland dry states, and the Canadian prairie provinces.

The last category is studded tires. Frankly, if the road conditions are so bad that you need these, you would be better off parking an RX-8 and taking out a 4 wheel drive, or riding public transport.

An other matter to consider, apart from tires is salt:

Lots of areas use salt to melt the ice.

It is a really good idea to frequently take the car to an indoor car wash, and clean off the ice and snow, so the salt is not in contact with metal parts of your car for long. Pay special attention to the wheel wells, the passages that exit the bottom of doors and fenders.
Do NOT USE SOAP, as it strips off wax.

Luke warm or cold water, and lots of it, is the best solution. Avoid wiping the body work to avoid scratching. Pressure washing first is the best way.

Wash the underside as well as you can, to avoid corrosion of exhaust and suspension components.

Rinse lots with clean water, and let it drain and chamois wipe it before going back out into freezing conditions.
If the car wash has compressed air, blow out any water from the door locks, window seals, and around the door weather seals. Make sure to get any water out from around the mirrors, especially if they are powered and heated. Heated outside mirror can break if the area around the mirror is packed with snow or ice.

If you park in a garage, avoid heating the garage above freezing temperatures. Taking a car into a heated garage with salty snow on it ensures that the parts will soak in salt water every time you park it. That will eat a steel body in little time.
Frankly , on salted roads, you are better off leaving it outside, in the shade, and best with a car cover.

Remember to wax (or better Zaino) your car with at least 2 coats before the onset of winter, and do not wash the car during winter with detergents.
Plain lukewarm or cool water is better, as it does not strip the wax.

Pick up a bottle of silicone spray, and wipe your door and window seals with it occasionally and they will not freeze stuck and will not tear weather seals.
This is good for windshiel washer baldes if used sparingly. Do not use much and do not get it on the glass. It smears.

Pick up a bottle of alcohol. Fill a spray bottle with it.
Keep it in the pocket of your winter coat, or somewhere handy for morning starts. Put the key in part way and dribble some on the key blade when opening the door and stuck locks melt clear.

If you are looking for an ice scraper, plastic ones are crappy. Try and find one with a blade made of brass. They cut the toughest ice, do not nick easily, and do not scratch glass.
Best is to use your credit cards. When you have broken them all you will find that you save a lot of money..

NEVER scrape a dirty windshield. The grit will scratch it.
If you have to thaw it in a hurry spray some alcohol on it.
Try to keep the alcohol off the paint. It strips wax.

Lastly, if you are new at winter driving, avoid using brakes. One should be able to drive with the least amount of braking, and this reduces chances of skidding. Allow lots of room in front of you for other cars, stop lights and signs.

If somebody takes the space in front of you, don't get angry. These idiots will pay the price soon enough, when they rear-end a bus or something..

For those who drive regularly in winter, and know all of this, please pardon my long response.

For those who are new to this, I live in Edmonton, where it freezes every night from early October to late April.

No accidents or rust in 30 years so far..

And wear sunscreen..

This might seem like a dumb question... but did any of you guys talk to your dealership before swapping tires? Is it possible to affect the warranty by putting on a "wrong" wheel?

Just chiming in for a sec -

I've been reading this thread since it started in whatever month that was, and I just wanted to say that the level of expertise that Gordon and Canzoomer have achieved is fairly impressive. I took their advice and purchased a set of 17 x 7 wheels with a harder compound winter tire for use here in Pennsylvania. Tested them on the car, and all was great. They drive nicely too!

I must admit that the whole offset thing was too much for me so I left it up to the guy at the Tirerack where I bought the tires, but at least I knew enough to ask the question, and to understand the answer.

I just wanted to say thanks because you guys really walked me through something that was pretty stressful for me, and you didn't even know that you were being helpful. :)

Just for my $.02 I did not contact my dealership about any warranty issues that might be involved, but my feeling is that it would not invalidate the warranty, even defeating the tire pressure sensor. The only thing is that if the wheel were to specifically damage the car, like the front calipers, that specific damage would not be under warrranty. That's my guess. Just a guess.

Thanks again - H

Originally posted by Haze
Just chiming in for a sec -

Thanks again - H

Can you elaborate on what you bought?

I still haven't decided what wheels/tires I'm going with... and anything I can add to the "it works" list would be helpful.

Thanks.

Hey there -

I got the 17 X 7 Sport Edition Fox 2 in Lt grey.

I wanted something that wasn't silver, and they looked slick to me.


For tires I got the Blizzak LM 50's in 225/50QR-17. They were cheaper than alot of the other tires for snows, but they are not speed rated for the Mazda. However I doubt if I will be racing around in the winter so this was OK for me.


I tried the package on my car and drove around a bit. The wheel cleared the caliper by at least an inch which was just fine, and they drove great around the block. I took them off then, and put them away waiting for winter, but the package seems to work well.

Anyway, it was the package that worked for me.

Thanks for posting.

Confused...No more!

I agreed on all points from Canzoome,Haze and Gord.

I will let dealer install the 18" winter unless they advise and supply me the 17".

I am not good in calculation. But I do not see great advantages in winter driving by changing to 17" if it is 225/45 or 205/50, atching the height etc... etc... comes to almost the same size of the stock. It comes down to the costs for 18" winter tire vs 17".

My first car is 72 beetle then Aspen, Cutlass Calais and now 94 Aerostar. All RWD without the latest technologies on tire compound and DSC/TCS. Winter tire is very important because the cold weather, especially freezing pavement and black ice.
Past 33 Quebec winter seasons driving technic is to keep a good distance, slow down, know your limit, leave home/work early to avoid rushing yourself through traffic jam created by those idiots driving 4X4 ended upside down.

Note that if I need to buy the whole set wheels/tires. I'll take the advise from Canzoomer and Gord. Thanks Guys.

PS. Mazda Canada should provide the search on web so that I can find out the status of my car!

TY_888, your in Montreal! Talk to Talon Tire Man!

Originally posted by canzoomer
KAL Tire.

Product code is S216770138H5BH

Regular price $155, RX-8 group buy price $130

http://www.kaltire.com/

Hey I thought I'd just mention that the CR model is "216".

They LOOK like the CR374s on Kal's site, but they are not. In fact, the CR216s aren't even listed!

I had to use the product code to get the right rim. Thanks!

Originally posted by TY_888
Confused...No more!

I am not good in calculation. But I do not see great advantages in winter driving by changing to 17" if it is 225/45 or 205/50, atching the height etc... etc... comes to almost the same size of the stock. It comes down to the costs for 18" winter tire vs 17".


In Canada I didn't realize that 18" snows get snapped up so fast. I found 2 Blizz LM-22s and that was it. Where are you getting yours?

I do not have the car yet (expecting last week of Nov). My dealer suppose to have the winter tire installed when I pick up the car. Sales manager promised me a set of good performance winter tire that fits the RX8. I do not know which brand name of winter tire. I leave it up to the dealer to locate the tires.

Chaeck the previous explanations in this thread and the Talon Tire Group Buy thread. In a nut shell, there are 2 points:

1. The 7-inch width of winter wheels & tires that everybody is buying from Talon Tire (or elsewhere) will give better traction by penetrating the snow deeper compared to the 8" wide ones.

2. The higher profile of 215/55R17 tires (which require that you switch to 17" diameter rims for the winter) will further improve traction due to the greater cushion of rubber between the hard metal rim and the snow-covered or ice-covered pavement. That additional height improves pliability of the tire on those surfaces. It would be even better if 16" rims could be used but I tried on many of them at Talon Tire and they were not fitting over the mongo brakes. That's why we ended up recommending the FRD 6 or FRD 30 rims with 215/55R17 Toyo Garit HT tires. In contrast, tires having a low profile (what you get on 18" rims) will be too inflexible or "hard" to get good traction in the snow. Think skates.

I understand that Mazda has not yet decided on their choice of 17x7 or 16x7 wheels to recommend or provide to their dealers' service departments. I don't mean to be alarmist, but if your dealer is going to put snow tires on the stock 18" rims, it means IMHO that he is making a buck from you at the expense of winter performance (at best) and your safety (at worst). What he did was choose to keep your business in Mazda service dept. (that's his best interest) whereas he should have advised you to find 17x7 or 16x7 wheels elsewhere (that's your best interest).