Here is a quote from www.mulsannescorner.com That's the best place for the most up to date info on the American LeMans Series. This could be an interesting year for Mazda racing in the ALMS. Let's hope the rumor becomes a reality. Hopefully we'll find out in a couple of weeks.

"I sat down with John Doonan briefly to get the scoop on Mazda's plans for '06...for now there are none other than what is evident. John intimated that their fiscal year doesn't even begin until April 1, so talk of a new chassis is well premature inasmuch as they haven't any idea of what their budget will be. But it doesn't take much intuition to figure that they are doing alot of talking to various chassis builders and that one in particular is looking like, "a good fit". The Mazda guys are putting the pieces together, B-K Motorsports being the first piece, driver's Guy Cosmo and Jamie Bach the second, and the acquisition of engineer Marcus Haselgrove being the third. The fourth and fifth pieces could very well be a new chassis and new motor (4-rotor). But we'll have to wait a couple more weeks before we find out."

4-rotor, i hope that becomes REALITY!!! zoom zoom! But are they going to use a 4-rotor in LMP2? the hp on it is a little too high for use in LMP2 i think, so LMP1 is a possiblity too?
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Its about time they should the world how reliable and powerful the wankel can be, well let's hope they do finish.

Something just moved in my pants. I would love to see Mazda in the P1 class with a 4-rotor or hell even in p2 class to compete against Porsche and Lola. They seriously need more power!

ITS FOR P2, the real rpoblem is that a 4 rotor will at wehig and it still to be determine what restrictions ACO its going to place for this engine, but to be competitive thay need to add power, as it is, the car is almost 9 seconds of pace in sebring, the only way 4 rotors can get it there is almost unristricted.

I heard lola 4 rotor for july?

another thin the rumor before sebring was that they dint have a good engine, some one said they where using a practice engine for the race, I find this hard to belive since this its one of the most important races of the season, any one heard anithyng?

RG, what do you think of the new paint job?

They did change out an engine just before the race
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Heres something from the news section of the ALMS website
http://www.americanlemans.com/news/Article.aspx?ID=1893

COSMO SOLID BEFORE COURAGE-MAZDA RETIREMENT AT SEBRING

Despite logging two flawless driving stints in the No. 8 B-K Motorsports Mazda-Courage C65, Guy Cosmo will have to wait for his first 12 Hours of Sebring win. After advancing the car and his team to as high as third in class during the American Le Mans Series' Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring, the usually reliable Mazda-powered Courage C65 began to falter under the grueling conditions dealt out by the legendary Sebring circuit.

"The car was working very well," said Cosmo. "I really felt we were executing our plan perfectly. We didn't come here planning to be the fastest, but we were very confident in the Mazda's reliability."

The team started at the back of the grid after changing engines and receiving a variance from IMSA due to not meeting nighttime driver assignments in Friday evening's practice.

Cosmo did a fuel-only stop at the 40-minute mark, then he and Jamie Bach made the first driver change with Jamie getting in the car at about one and one half hours into the race.

"I had worked through a lot of the GT2 and GT1 traffic in my first stint," continued Cosmo. "I was very happy with the car's handling and it felt great. Our pit stops went very well and our driver changes were flawless. All three of us (co-drivers, Jamie Bach and Raphael Matos) were very happy with the car."

Bach did a scheduled two hours in the car with Matos doing his first stint at 03:34 into the race.

At the 05:41 mark in the race, Cosmo took over the driving duties and continued to advance the Mazda-Courage through the field. The car was running third in class and ninth overall. Guy would run the car into twilight and relinquish the driving duties to Bach at eight hours in.

"I was very pleased with everything," said Cosmo. "We were moving along and clicking off good solid times. Next thing I knew, Jamie reported difficulty with the gearbox linkage. The crew did a great job of getting him back on track, but we did lose precious time."

Matos got back in the car 10:13 into the race. Ten minutes into his stint he came into the pits reporting an overheating problem. At 9:41PM, with less than one hour remaining in the event, the car was officially retired from the race citing the reason as overheating.

"It's always disappointing not to finish an endurance event," commented Cosmo. "But, by the same token, the team has a lot to be proud of. We made an outstanding showing and displayed great teamwork. We'll continue to work with the car, prepare for Houston, and implement both long and short-term objectives. We're all very positive about our program. I'm very proud of what we accomplished this week."

Guy Cosmo's extensive background with open-wheel formula cars and sports prototypes has earned him a reputation as one of the most successful and versatile young racing drivers in North America. The 2005 American Le Mans Series Rookie of the Year ranks among the top-level road racers in the world.
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RG, what do you think of the new paint job?
I like the yellow and light blue colors better. They just stand out more. I like the blue and yellow better than the orange and green of the 787B also.

For anyone interested, here are the rules for the 2006 season. In them you can find the engine displacement and restrictor plate rules among other things. Actually it's all the rules. You'll just have to sort them out. The restrictor plate would actually have to be smaller for a 4 rotor than for a 3 rotor. This would mean that it would really be limited to a lower redline for obvious airflow reasons and that they'd have to play with gearing.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/2006LMP12.pdf

So you're saying that by going to a 4-rotor they'd get more torque and not much horsepower? Since the restrictor plates would get smaller as well...

There are still a couple things they can do to the current 3-rotor I think... Ceramic coat it and make it a 3 spark plugs per rotor just like the old R26B, and probably more things I dont know about.

But what they need the most now I think is a new chassis. Seems like they still havent solved the overheating problem from last year, this chassis is really hindering their performance.
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The variable length intake manifold is only legal on a rotary in ALMS yet they still haven't gone to it. There really isn't a whole lot of room to do it in this car. That would help average power but wouldn't affect peak power. Average power is what makes you faster though.

A 4 rotor running in the same P2 class would have to use a smaller restrictor plate by about a millimeter. We are only talking about a 2" hole to feed the entire engine. Since the restritor plate is holding back power in a 3 rotor, it definitely wouldn't make any more power on a 4 rotor. At least not much. It would have to rely on the wider powerband and added low end power. Since a 4 rotor flows more air than a 3 rotor, you'd max out the intake velocity at a much lower rpm which would limit your redline to a lower number. You'd be relying on a lower rpm range but far more average power and torque. This would definitely take some different gearing. If they stay in P2 this could still be an advantage over what they have now assuming of course they could shave the weight off of other parts of the car to compensate. If they could find a way to keep the weight the same but get average power up and have gearing to match, they'd still be faster in spite of the restrictor. The restrictor is designed to limit total max horsepower but it's the average where you get creative and try to get the advantage.

If they moved up into P1 I truly believe they'd get their butt's handed to them. The Audi R10 TDI diesels are just nasty powerful. 600+ hp but over 800 ft lbs of torque. The torque means they make a ton more average power. They are geared to compensate for the 5000 rpm redline. By comparison a completely unrestricted 4 rotor can do nearly 700 hp but only a little over 400 ft lbs of torque. Remember they are using restrictor plates now so remove at least 100 or more hp from the top depending on whether or not they are P1 or P2. They redline at 9000 but the powerband is from 6000-9000. This will be much higher fuel consumption than the diesels which will mean more stops. That was one of Audi's strategies in that they make less stops for fuel so they get farther faster.

In my eyes I only see Mazda staying in P2 and then relying on all the tricks to get power to where it needs to be. Sadly enough the only way I see them being competitive in P1 would be to develop a very nice turbo (dare I say it!!!) piston engine.

They definitely need a new chassis that will help their cooling problems as well as give them room to do the variable intake. I can almost guarantee that it will still be an open cockpit as all closed cockpit cars are now forced to run a/c.

We'll all know for sure in a couple of weeks.

another thing, if they are having trouble with cooling on this chasis with the 3 rotor imagine the nigthmare with a 4 rotor. I did not know thw variable legth intake was legal, this is what they need since it would improve the cars low end as well as average power.

they have made a lot of progres, last year I belive it was in pettit lemas they had trouble pasing gt2 cars and did similar times as gt2, in sebring this year they were doing better times that the gt1.

Im with you 100% on the paint job.

check this out second in the second practice seccion:

http://w3.grandamerican.com/Events/SessionResults.asp?SessionID=638

sorry to hijack the thread RG

For the technically oriented people who want to know how restrictors work on these cars, know that they aren't just restrictor plates like on NASCAR which realy hurt airflow. The restrictor is merely the total area that the intake is limited to flow through. They do this to try to keep power down and equal among different types of engines. However the inlets and outlets can be shaped in the form of a venturi to help aid in flow. This has an absolutely huge effect on flow. I'll need to go look up what the rules are regarding the shape of the venturi. I think they are just limited by minimum angles.

A perfect venturi has an inlet angle of 16* and an outlet angle of 7* before and after the vena contracta (smallest part of the venturi which also serves as the restrictor size). The 3 rotor is limited to a 53.5mm restrictor (vena contracta) which is also 2.11". This has an area of 3.49 cu in. The perfect venturi has an inlet and outlet diameter of approx 4 times the area of the vena contracta which in this case would make them both 4". Look at the pictures really closely and you can see they most certainly did this! A perfect venturi will flow appro 137.7 cfm (25" of H2O as a reference pressure) per cu. in area. This means that 3.49 X 137.7 = 480.57 cfm through the restrictor. The Courage intake should be very close to this. A 4 rotor would require a smaller restrictor by at least a millimeter. That doesn't sound like much but go plug in the numbers based on what I've given you to figure out the total cfm ability at that pressure. The 4 rotor has more flow so the only way to counter this is to run a lower rpm. At least now you can see how this works and why. If you really want to have some fun, find out how much air you need per horsepower and plug in the numbers for the restrictor plate and it should get you pretty close to the actual power output of that engine. Oh the fun you can have with simple math!

FWIW: Without the venturi shape, only using a restrictor plate will cost you over 100 hp of airflow!!! Shape is very important to flow even through the same size. The Courage is somewhere at or near 400 fwhp. Don't know exactly. Someone run the numbers and see what you get. Richard probably has the airfow numbers a rotary needs to make a certain amount of power. Let's see if they match.

Ya.. haha I was thinking if they want to get more competitive, they'd need to use a piston engine! Sad fact tho.. Also how about turbocharging the 3-rotor? But that'd make the engine bay even hotter!!...

What do you mean by "We'll know in a couple of weeks"?

Maybe they should grab the 787B in Japan, ship it here and race it :)
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Ya.. haha I was thinking if they want to get more competitive, they'd need to use a piston engine! Sad fact tho.. Also how about turbocharging the 3-rotor? But that'd make the engine bay even hotter!!...

What do you mean by "We'll know in a couple of weeks"?

Maybe they should grab the 787B in Japan, ship it here and race it :)
Their budget is unkown and their fiscal year doesn't begin until April. So once they see what their budget is, we will find out if they get a new chassis and go 4-rotor and anything else :naughty:

Bump~
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its pass abril firts anyone got any news?

no one?

The fiscal year only just started. Their plans don't get finalized on the first day. They are working on it right now though and we should have an update relatively soon. If worse comes to worse, I'll see John Doonan personally the weekend of May 10th at the Houston Grand Prix but we should have an update well before that.

thaks RG

well mazda its going to have to make a large efort it looks like thing are only going to get more competitive with acura next year.

any one have any info on what's happeing to speedsource and the GT program, they have not enter VIR or laguna seca?

Speedsource GT drivers are driving for the GS class RX-8 @ VIR
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yes the GT is not going to be there, but it will be at laguna.

they are going to be in the ST not the GS class.

Here's the latest news. For the time being Mazda is going to stick with the current car/engine combo. However for the future, Mazda is looking to bring in a different chassis with a 4 rotor engine! I don't think we'll see it this year but maybe next.

http://rotarynews.com/node/view/788

check it out

Sweet news.

OK here's the official word through mulsanne's corner. Mike always interviews John Doonan at Mazda directly so this is always the most accurate source. The restrictor plate size has gotten larger again (more power) and the cooling system is upgraded and redesigned. Awesome news.

I get to see this car in a week and a half here in Houston!!! Yay!

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/news.html

Carlos Lopez is a really nice guy, hope they can solved the problem of over heating.

wish I could make it to Houston, that new track looks intresting

Here's an interesting tidbit. I'll ask John Doonan about it this weekend. Zoom44 will like this.

http://rotarynews.com/node/view/791

it be really intresting to see this happeng, but its going to take a very big invesment from mazda to do it

About that hydrogen possibility for next year's LeMans car. Forget it. It's bogus. It's nothing more than wishful thinking by a Mazda exec. It has no graps on reality. I had the chance to hang out in the Mazda paddock area for a while today at the Houston Grand Prix qualifying and I brought this topic up. They got a good laugh out of it. The article says that they may use the Hydrogen technology from the RX-8 hydrogen engine and apply it to the Courage. First of all, the rules say nothing about allowing hydrogen. That's already a big problem. The next issue is that even with a turbocharger, the hydrogen RX-8 doesn't get near the horsepower of the standard gasoline Renesis that has no turbo. Why the heck would they use Hydrogen when the rules don't allow it and it makes far less power? On top of that, a turbo on their engine would require a smaller inlet restrictor. Then the problem of fitting the necessarily large fuel tank becomes an issue in a car that's already tight on space. Compound that with the fact that it takes FAR longer to refuel and this just doesn't make sense for a race car.

Carlos Lopez is here. I chatted with him for a while about many things. Cool guy.

well, thats what i thoug of the hydrogen thing, I remember the hydrogen rx-8 made something like 150 hp.

http://rotarynews.com/node/view/792

I watched them run yesterday during practice and qualifying. They are about 5 seconds off the pace on only a 1.7 mile track. Qualified 4th in their class out of only 5 cars. It is the loudest car out there. The champ cars are quiet compared to the ALMS cars.

I tried to ask Carlos about the engine but sadly enough some things are classified! Even he thinks it's dumb to keep details classified as there are no other rotary race cars out there stealing secrets but he has to abide by the rules if he wants to play. I asked if it used Renesis rotors or 13B rotors but he couldn't tell me. He knows. He just couldn't tell me. I do know that it runs "unusually lean" which has led to several cooling issues. I do know that Carlos is the pioneer of negative timing split on rotary engines. This is a technique that lets you run a rotary "unusually lean" and still gets you great power and improved throttle response. I have no idea if it is running negative split or not as that's not information that I am privy to so that is just pure speculation on my part. My best guess would be "sometimes but not always".

As far as the intake goes, last year we saw the snorkel intake on the right side of the car appear later in the season. This allowed straight intake runners and a more direct shot into the engine. It was a big ugly piece that added alot of weight. It didn't give anything in the way of added power though. That's why they've gone back to the intake on the roll over hoop. It's lighter, just as powerful, and more asthetically pleasing.

I got to see them run a compression check on the engine. They've got some cool computer equipment! They get a printout from a computer (nothing more than a laptop plugged into a printer) that shows them their compression ratio over the full rotation of the engine as "seen" from the spark plug holes. It's not just numbers for each chamber. Not quite sure how it does that but it's really neat. I only caught a glimpse of it but it looked like something out of a hospital. Cool stuff.

I heard they are on a very conservative setup for this race because they want to finih in good shape.

they used to be rx-8 rotors, now I heard that they are special mazda rotors very light and better compresion but I cant confirm this, as you said they are keeping some secrets.

hey RG i keep hearing this rumors about mazda retooling to make 3 rotor create engines for racers, have you heard anything?

So what is negative split?

I watched them run yesterday during practice and qualifying. They are about 5 seconds off the pace on only a 1.7 mile track. Qualified 4th in their class out of only 5 cars. It is the loudest car out there. The champ cars are quiet compared to the ALMS cars.

I tried to ask Carlos about the engine but sadly enough some things are classified! Even he thinks it's dumb to keep details classified as there are no other rotary race cars out there stealing secrets but he has to abide by the rules if he wants to play. I asked if it used Renesis rotors or 13B rotors but he couldn't tell me. He knows. He just couldn't tell me. I do know that it runs "unusually lean" which has led to several cooling issues. I do know that Carlos is the pioneer of negative timing split on rotary engines. This is a technique that lets you run a rotary "unusually lean" and still gets you great power and improved throttle response. I have no idea if it is running negative split or not as that's not information that I am privy to so that is just pure speculation on my part. My best guess would be "sometimes but not always".

As far as the intake goes, last year we saw the snorkel intake on the right side of the car appear later in the season. This allowed straight intake runners and a more direct shot into the engine. It was a big ugly piece that added alot of weight. It didn't give anything in the way of added power though. That's why they've gone back to the intake on the roll over hoop. It's lighter, just as powerful, and more asthetically pleasing.

I got to see them run a compression check on the engine. They've got some cool computer equipment! They get a printout from a computer (nothing more than a laptop plugged into a printer) that shows them their compression ratio over the full rotation of the engine as "seen" from the spark plug holes. It's not just numbers for each chamber. Not quite sure how it does that but it's really neat. I only caught a glimpse of it but it looked like something out of a hospital. Cool stuff.

yeesh, hanging out with race car drivers and stuff, you are one lucky bastard! :bigok:

So what is negative split?
Firing the trailing plugs before the leadings. The RX-8 already uses negative split but only at idle. Even then it's only 5 degrees negative. Above about 1000 rpm, the split is positive with the leadings firing before the trailings. The split will be anywhere from about 5 degrees to 15 degrees depending on load or rpm. Negative split has far more potential throughout th rest of the rpm range. Just don't use it with forced induction.

hey RG i keep hearing this rumors about mazda retooling to make 3 rotor create engines for racers, have you heard anything?
You've always been able to buy Mazda 3 rotor race engines directly from them. They have about a $30K+ price tag though.

Mazda qualified 4th in their class out of only 5 cars. They qualified 14th overall out of 23. The 2 Porsche cars are very fast. Mazda was pulling off about 1:15 lap times while the Porsches were hitting 1:08's or so. They were lapped several times. The total race length is 2 hours and 45 minutes. It's a night race that starts at 8 pm and ends at 10:45. At 10:30, Mazda was 4th in their class when BOTH Porsche's blow up!! They were 1st and 2nd. Several minutes later and the Courage had made up and passed the Porsche's lap lead. Remember the Porsches dropped out with only 15 minutes until the end of the race. This left Mazda in 2nd in their class. Then the lead car started to fall off!!! Guy Cosmo was making up 20 seconds per lap on the leader. They were 7 laps down though. It was a good fight but time was just too short. Cosmo made up 4 laps and finished in 2nd in their class, down by 2 laps when only 15 minutes earlier they were 8 or so laps down in 4th place. My how quickly things can change. If the race had been just 10 minutes longer, they'd have won. It was a good finish and definitely shows the rotary's strongpoint which is reliability. The Porsches were much faster. They could have been in LMP1 based solely on their speed. It wasn't even close. They just can't finish. The Porsches have only been in a few races and the same thing has happened each time. They are fast and dominate most of the race only to fail before the end. They should probably back down power abit and first worry about finishing. You can't win if you can't finish.

After the race I went back to the Porsche paddock area. Both cars were being worked on. The mood over there was definitely not on the happy side. They had the engine cover off and I could plainly see the intake manifold and air inlet. They had always had tarps over them so no one could see them. I figured I should take a picture of it since it wasn't easy to see. The second the flash went off, a mechanic immediately threw a cover over the intake. I still got the picture though. I don't see what the big deal is. I didn't see anything that looked top secret or special. Oh well.

I love the ALMS. It's currently my favorite series followed by F1.

Tomorrow is the Champ Cars. That'll be fun. It's a great weekend. Too bad parking is $15.

Well I am completly jealous. I would love to attend an event like that and then to even talk to the teams, etc. I too believe it is stupid to hide EVERY single think under the hood. Wow an airbox, don't let the comp see that. Oh, well. Hope you have a great time! Post pics!!

Post pics!!Let's play Find The Rotary...

Bottom right. You guys suck because you were there.

Bottom right. You guys suck because you were there.To paraphrase the great John Paul Jones...

We have not yet begun to suck!

( Do not click this link -
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=89678&page=2&pp=25 (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=89678&page=2&pp=25) )

^^I did not click the link, and I did not really enjoy it and call you a bastard.

You've always been able to buy Mazda 3 rotor race engines directly from them. They have about a $30K+ price tag though.

reman or complety new?

Hey!!!!! it was a great race! It confirms the info I got, the car was setup to finish not to go as fast as it can, and it almost won.

New. There are only a handful of them in the world. It would be pretty hard to find a reman. It's not hard to build a 3 rotor peripheral port engine comparable to it from other sources for cheaper.

When I get a chance, I'll try to post some pictures of the engine bay. Looking back on it, I wish I'd have taken some different views of it. There are some things in the pictures which I have had a hard time figuring out.

I don't know what angles you wanted, but I'll go ahead and post a couple more...

What day did you take those pictures? The rotor housings on that one say 13B and Mazda. The one in my pictures say R20B and Mazda. Granted they are just plaques that are stuck on so they could have removed them for some reason.

The timetags on those particular engine pix read 8:48am on Friday the 12th. I was under their tent several times on Friday and again on Saturday so I got to see a lot of work getting done.

Been looking thru some engine bay pictures of vaiours ALMS cars... the Mazda engine bay is too busy... its like enclosed with no way of venting the heat... No wonder they had overheating problems...

Its like a car put together to barely run... That chassis is outdated, C60 rear end right? The new Lolas I've seen are much better around the engine bay area.. design, radiator placement, brake duct, cooling are superior.
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Look, even a two rotar gives you all the revs you could ever need - so could the problem be in the transmission? There is a lot of heat there which means energy is being lost instead of rolling wheels around... Need better more direct conversion from high revs to torque ... Could it be they still trying to use Ford technology when some re-engineering is needed? Then again, I'm just a little old Granny lady, so what could I know?
I just want to see them win! At my age I need all the cheap thrills I can get!

That car has lots of louvers to let heat out. They just got done reworking the ducting from the previous setup and it's really helped out with cooling ability. That chassis has always been an issue when trying to get enough air in to cool it down. They needed to use the C60 rear end as the rotary would not bolt up to the C65. This does make it overweight. Fortunately it is all but confirmed that a brand new Lola chassis is being built for them which we may see before season's end. They aren't confirming it but they aren't denying it either. Other sources from inside the ALMS say it is going to happen. I guess we'll see if it's true or not.

The new chassis will help this car greatly, with better cooling, maybe they can extract more power outta the 3 rotor with better tuning that couldn't be achieved before with the heat issue. What would be the weight saving be going from the current setup to a new lola? last i heard they were overweight by quite a lot.
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They are somewhere between 150-200 lbs overweight and underpowered by about 50 hp or so.

I'm sorry to say that if they take the same approach to cooling on the new car as the current one, they'll always have overheating issues. It won't matter how much airflow they have. They are neglecting a very important cooling factor of the rotary engine.

what are they neglecting? oil?

Bingo!!! In a HUGE way! They added a second radiator to try to cool the car down. Their oil cooler is BEHIND it!!!! It gets fed hot air. Almost half of the engine's heat is expelled out of the oil system since that's the only thing that cools the rotors. With their setup, they could add 10 more radiators and place them in an Alaskan blizzard. They still aren't going to cool down the oil properly. I can't believe they haven't figured this out. They burned a hole through the rotor housings of 2 different engines at Sebring!!!

LOL, oh man RG you need to walk up to them and TELL them that!
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They burned up the rotor housings right at the leading spark plug location. Their setup for Houston had a new radiator added. It has new coolant lines coming out of the engine right under the plugs which get fed via their own electric water pump into the 2nd radiator. It is an attempt at cooling the engine down right there. The big problem is they are misreading their issues. Typical piston engines don't need nearly the cooling that a rotary engine does. A 200 hp rotary has more oil cooling needs than an 800 hp piston engine. It's that extreme.

They are using piston engine logic to solve their issue. If we are overheating, we must need a better cooling system. Good logic. It just doesn't work that way on rotaries. They should be able to stick with only 1 radiator and instead of a 2nd radiator, they need to use an oil cooler that is equally as large as the primary radiator. It needs to get fed all of the air on that side of the car. Their temps will go down. On a rotary, when your oil system fails, your coolant temps go up. When your coolant system fails, your oil temps go up. The heat needs to get out somewhere.

Remember the only thing cooling the rotors is oil. That's it. If the oil system isn't getting rid of heat, it goes back into the combustion chamber. Added heat at combustion makes ignition much more difficult, hurts power, and sends more heat back into the cooling system. Their oil cooler is decently large. It isn't what I personally would use on a 3 rotor race engine though. I'd go equally as large as the radiator. If they are too large, you can always block off some air going to them. Simple enough. Take a look at a Kudzu that was built by Rick Engman. Overkill all the way. Large oil coolers. His engines also went 100 race hours between rebuilds. See a trend?

Alot of their problems have been with keeping mufflers alive from extreme exhaust heat. They don't run one if they don't have to. They have had problems with overheating and burning through housings. Power is down as a result. They have to tune it lower in power to keep heat down. You can see now how all of their problems are tied into one thing, oil cooling.

Mazda and many others have been racing high powered rotaries for years at higher power levels than this and have kept them from overheating. Admittedly that car doesn't have tons of good cooling area compared to other rotary race cars of the past. At only 400 hp, it also isn't making the power of many of the other cars of the past. They are thinking too hard and centering too much attention on the cooling system when they need to work on the oil system. In a rotary, it is the other cooling system and it is just as important.

There's no point in me telling them this. They wouldn't listen to me. What do I know? I don't work for a race team or a shop and never have. I'm just your average Joe Hobbyist. Maybe their problems are a little more in depth than this but it would be the best place to start and definitely the first thing to address towards solving their issues.

I truly want this team to succeed and do well and I hope they get this issue solved. If they never do and they never get truly competitive, it'll just be fuel for the fire that other people constantly burn about how the rotary isn't a reliable or competitive engine. It is. You just have to do it properly. The engine is only as good as the people working on it. Hopefully they'll figure this oil cooling issue out soon and get it up to the level that it should be at.

I ask myself the same question when I could not see their oil cooler, I cant belive they are over looking something like this, and with so many expirience people working in that team.

dont forget to check the practice times today at 1:25 :rock:
http://www.imsaracing.net/2003/lt/ltc.html

Look at the 2nd picture above that was posted by HIX8. You can see the oil cooler on the left. If you look closely you can see another line going to the 2nd radiator in front of it. Terrible setup. That oil cooler looks nice and large but if they positioned it to get all the airflow and then made it twice as large (or as large as can fit in there), they'd stay cool with only 1 radiator.

This comes from Mulsannes corner.

"Mazda - it looks likely the Mazda are going to run a Hydrogen fueled Rotary engine next year in a Lola, this will be the works team and is likely to be at Le Mans. (Many skeptics on this side of the pond about this project. Technical problems are apparently many, but not limited to, fueling issues, power [lack thereof], and regulations. A good PR project for sure given the state of petro-politics, but certainly the fundamentals need to be addressed first?) "

I wonder what he means by "the works" team? If this means that Mazda is going to build a car (since they will be at LeMans this year?), it may mean that BK isn't going to be a part of it. Remember they are having budget issues. How can they get a new Hydrogen powered car if they are having budget issues? Hmmm.... If Mazda will be running a new car next year, this may explain why I was told by BK that there wasn't going to be a Hydrogen powered car. They just might not be the one's getting it. I wonder what the whole story is here? I argued a little bit with Bernie over at rotarynews.com about this topic. He claimed they were goig to run a Hydrogen car next year but BK told me directly they weren't. Maybe we are both right?

this is really intresting, but I think the best way to win is to make a more conventional aproach

I would certainly like to see how this turns out.

So long as they field a car that can win, I don't care if its powered by hamsters, bay seals, small children etc....

The issue is, assuming the storage can be worked out, how to you make enough power? I'm not aware of a hydrogen conbustion engine that is as powerful as a equiv. gasoline engine due to the energy content of gasoline vs. hydrogen.

Maybe they are both right RG, maybe we'll see two rotary Lolas next year?, one hydrogen and one gasoline? Is there a way to make up the difference in energy content by injecting more fuel? raising the rpm? and also increasing the displacement.

Also, all of us here know the disadvantages (storage, power, refueling) for running hydrogen, but are there any advantages at all in using this in a race car? Does it burn very cool? weight savings from eliminating supporting components to a gasoline engine? but then the storage tank will be pretty heavy lol. This is really an unknown field for all of us here.
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the only avantage I can yhink of is PR, this will be in the front page of a lot of news papers

maybe theres going to be 2 cars after all
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=1396919#post1396919

and if you go there please leave a coment!

Well I got clarification as to what "the works team" means. It is simply a term for the team running the car. It wasn't meant to imply Mazda Japan or anyone specifically. It may very well be BK Motorsports. I may have just single handedly started the rumor that Mazda themselves are returning. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't.

Although Mazda hasn't stated officially that they are getting a new Lola chassis, my source in the ALMS called it, "the worst kept secret in racing". It's being built as we speak. Mazda will not be at LeMans this year. They are hoping to make a return to the 24 hours next year.

I am apparently not the only person who thinks that Hydrogen is a bad route to pursue when the current car can't get all of it's issues resolved. Maybe that is due solely to poor cooling ability of the current chassis but I see other issues as well. It is thought by many to be a public relations stunt from Mazda and nothing more as it doesn't seem likely that they will get the power they need to be competitive. They can't even do that now! Bernie at Rotarynews is adamant that this will happen and maybe it will but we'll see how far they get.

Here's my take on the subject from a rules perspective. They are maxed out in the displacement department in LMP2 already. They also can not use any forced induction with where they are. The only thing that I see happening is that they move up to LMP1. That means they need to be making 600-650 HP to be competitive. That's about 50% more than they make now. LMP1 regulations will allow them to run a 4 rotor with displacement to spare. They'll need it. LMP1 also allows forced induction. If they Hydrogen RX-8 is any indication of power, they'll need it. This may all sound fine and dandy but remember the tiny restrictor plates that they are forced to use.

The 787B's naturally aspirated 4 rotor engine was unrestricted and could make about 700 HP on gasoline. Who really knows how much that engine would make breathing through a 2" hole but it will certainly be MUCH lower. The only way I see it happening is with forced induction and a turbo. That damn restrictor plate will kill it though. I don't see how they will do it and remain competitive. I understand the logic that finishing the race consistently is better than leading for a while and then blowing up but you can really only get so far on others misfortune.

Will they try it? Probably. Will they find it to be fast enough to compete? That is another story altogether. They may ery well find that they can't get the power they need and revert back to the traditional setup. It does sound like more of a PR stunt than anything to get attention to a hydrogen rotary engine. That should at least foreshadow something. With Audi running a diesel now as well as a couple of other teams, a team running ethanol, and even Honda coming into the game with a gasoline/electric hybrid, it's easy to see why Mazda wants in on the game. It's all about attention. Personally I'd rather see a diesel rotary! Yes it has been done successfully. One thing is good if they do step up into LMP1 though. They are already overweight in LMP2 and P1 has higher weight requirements. Maybe the offset can be enough to make it work.

Please keep in mind that the LMP1 move is my speculation. We may very well just see a 3 rotor runing hydrogen in LMP2 in a Lola. I don't know what they are going to do but I know what makes the most sense based on the rules.

ok this is what I think:

hydrogen if it happengs its coing to be really expensive to develop all of this components for racing and at lease try to be competitive we are talking millions $, I thing they are just creating spectations thats all.

What I see hapening is a move to LMP1 with a 4 rotor lola chassis, the way the rules are right now LMP2 are as fast as lmp1 and with 3 rotor they are going to have a hard time caching the porches and acura's, the only way I see a competitive rotary LMP2 it's with a 13b FI , and the reliability is not going to be as good as the 20b


I really love to see a rx-8 in gt2 with FI or a 20b :ylsuper: since Im dreaming maybe a rx-8 4 rotor in gt1 :mdrmed:

If the rotary is top priority for Mazda, we might see them return to 24hr Lemans with a factory race car. It also looks like the Lola is coming, (99% true from wat ur saying), hope see the new car by the end of this season.

And as for hydrogen, if Mazda can make this work, yes they'd be on the newspaper everywhere, if they win? wow we can only imagine. I think Mazda is making a good move in pursueing hydrogen as a fuel now, rotary engines have a huge advantage over pistons in this field. Its better to start now then later, when the other car companies solve the problems with running hydrogen in piston engines, or when it becomes less expensive to do so, it'll be too late. Mazda is already at the front of the pack for research for internal combustion hydrogen engines now... I wouldnt be suprised if they are infront either (probably not tho, as BMW has a lot of research on this too).

Just like Audi diesel, using racing to experiment with new technology will advance the engine technology as well as gain PR. If Mazda succeeds at this, they might be the 1st to run hydrogen on the street! If(big if) the world goes with hydrogen as the main fuel in the future, it'll be the true "Renesis", rotary genesis, rotary reborn....

Also could they run the hydrogen rotary as an eletric powerplant? and power the car with electric motors? That way we wont need crapload of heavy batteries either..... I am thinking ahead too much am i....

One big question here, just how the hydrogen behaves as a fuel for Internal combustion engine??? does it burn cooler/hotter?, compression? turbocharged hydrogen? also everyone here saying hydrogen has less energy, but i saw on internet somewhere that it has more energy than gasoline.. in liquid form or sth... i dont know...
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A big problem with hydrogen is that is doesn't really like high compression ratios. It burns extrememly fast and is prone to detonate much easier than gasoline. You need to be more careful with it.

the hydrogen rx-8 with a turbo only makes like 180 hp so.....

Here's my take on the subject from a rules perspective. They are maxed out in the displacement department in LMP2 already. They also can not use any forced induction with where they are. The only thing that I see happening is that they move up to LMP1. That means they need to be making 600-650 HP (#) to be competitive. That's about 50% more than they make now. LMP1 regulations will allow them to run a 4 rotor with displacement to spare. They'll need it. LMP1 also allows forced induction. If they Hydrogen RX-8 is any indication of power, they'll need it. This may all sound fine and dandy but remember the tiny restrictor plates that they are forced to use.
That's not true Fred. They can run 4-rotor or forced induction in LMP2. The idea of a supercharged 3-rotor was put in front of Mazda and denied - Mazda wants a 4-rotor in the car. Unfortunately there's only a closet full of 4 rotor parts left in the world, and Dennis Spencer now owns almost all off it! And they have no intention of trying turbo's due to heat and likely overheating.

Saying they need 600-650hp is on the high side, they'd be right there if 2 things happen.

- 4 rotor or supercharged 3 rotor, either one will put them close to 600hp
- Shave that extra 300 pounds off the car that they can, and still be in the rules

One or both of those things will happen this year, and they'll still be in LMP2.

I've looked at the LMP1 and 2 rules regarding displacement. What are they considering the rotary as in terms of displacement? Are they actually calling a 3 rotor a 2 liter? If so then they could go larger. If they are considering it a 4 liter as most others would then they couldn't.

I think ACO considers the rotary using the same convertion as the japanesse do in JGTC the 20b is seen as a 3 liter, the 13b is senn as a 2 litter.

I like'd the idea of a low boost supercharger :mad:

That's even stranger yet. I've been going under the assumption that they consider the 13B a 2.6, the 20B a 3.9, and a 26B a 5.2. Mazda calls them 1.3, 2, and 2.6L. The Japanese JGTC place them in the middle. This is just odd.

That's not true Fred. They can run 4-rotor or forced induction in LMP2. The idea of a supercharged 3-rotor was put in front of Mazda and denied - Mazda wants a 4-rotor in the car. Unfortunately there's only a closet full of 4 rotor parts left in the world, and Dennis Spencer now owns almost all off it! And they have no intention of trying turbo's due to heat and likely overheating.

Saying they need 600-650hp is on the high side, they'd be right there if 2 things happen.

- 4 rotor or supercharged 3 rotor, either one will put them close to 600hp
- Shave that extra 300 pounds off the car that they can, and still be in the rules

One or both of those things will happen this year, and they'll still be in LMP2.

they dont need the parts that mr. spencer has, they only need to take a trip down under :mdrmed:

Any idea what dennis is going to do with the 4 rotors?

That's even stranger yet. I've been going under the assumption that they consider the 13B a 2.6, the 20B a 3.9, and a 26B a 5.2. Mazda calls them 1.3, 2, and 2.6L. The Japanese JGTC place them in the middle. This is just odd.

not only that but the japanasse put the rx-8 as a sub 2 litter car for street use, in japan theres a higer tax to pay if the car is over 2,000cc

If you were using hydrogen as fuel, would you want a tank of oxygen along for extra pop or would you get enough action by just burning it with ordinary air?

if you make a hydrogen engine NA it would not make enought hp you need a turbo, an oxigen tank ats a lot of weight and you would have to refill it.

they dont need the parts that mr. spencer has, they only need to take a trip down under :mdrmed:

Any idea what dennis is going to do with the 4 rotors?
Those one off 4 rotor creations will NOT work in a 9000 rpm endurance car.

Dennis has been loosely associated with the team since inception, although even with all that he has there's not near enough parts there to field a 4 rotor car for more than a few races.

Those one off 4 rotor creations will NOT work in a 9000 rpm endurance car.

Dennis has been loosely associated with the team since inception, although even with all that he has there's not near enough parts there to field a 4 rotor car for more than a few races.

Very accurate statements as usual Ryan.

Very accurate statements as usual Ryan.
Thanks, good that you concur.

I always keep a few nuggets of information tucked away in my back pocket as well. Even though people don't always say "don't tell anyone", I know when they're thinking it :D

thanks for the info Ryan, if they cant use the KIWI 4 rotor kit what does mazda have up its sleeve? :mdrmed:

this is getting intresting

The only way they're going to field a car with a 4-rotor is if Mazda Japan decides to start producing the parts again. Will that happen? I can't say ... but it is being talked about. To this point the BK team has been Mazda USA, Japan has had no involvement. Japan getting involved would be very good for rotaries in motorsports around the world, not just the BK team.

Based on the output of the hydrogen RX-8, I still don't see a hydrogen rotary being competitive. Not even a 4 rotor. Even if they could get 400 HP with it, they'll still be too slow. They are near that now. A weight savings will help too but if they went with a 4 rotor, they'd be adding it. I don't see how this is going to work. Let's face it, they are having issues cooling and keeping a gasoline 3 rotor reliable. They need to work that out before they move on to different fuels. Let's hope they don't try to run the 3 rotor off of hydrogen.

I think Mazda Japan should get back in the game. That would be damn cool. We've seen that in the past when they want something to happen, it does. I'm not trying to insult BK, but I feel that the only way Mazda can make a hydrogen rotary work in racing is if they do it themselves. That would at least be their best hope for success.

I heard some rumors about mazda producing 3 rotors and 4 rotors engines for racing, it looks like its beeng considered, I hope they do , maybe we can even see some more private teams.

sorry to hijack but whats up with speedsource an the GT car? they are not on the entry list of the emco gears classic at mid ohio

budget probably? they are fielding less and less RX-8s in the ST class as well, down to 2 now... or they are focusing more on the #68 and #70 car which still have a chance to get to top 3 overall. Remember last yr they got a triple crown champ. They've yet to place a finish in top 3 this year.
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I don't think it's budget. I haven't talked with Sylvain in awhile, but have been told they're just too busy building cars for customers, and themselves. You know the cars they campaign are all new too. So they've been cranking out cars.

Check out my last batch of pictures from Mid-Ohio ... some good stuff if I say so myself :D

http://www.rxphotos.com/g/midohio_2006

Hmm could be the time, you're probably right given the information you come across, I am just guessing from the very limited information circulating this site.

I am just gonna wait for these few months to pass, dont have TBS sports as i live up here in Canada, hope to see a Lola 3 rotor when ALMS returns to Speed!
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Check out my last batch of pictures from Mid-Ohio ... some good stuff if I say so myself :D

http://www.rxphotos.com/g/midohio_2006
noiceee... sorry to go off topic but... ryan can you make posters of stock FC's and FD's? like these pics here? the FD with MSP rims and jspec signals...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/anotherqx4/57_Mazda_2405.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/anotherqx4/56_Mazda_2405.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/anotherqx4/5_RX7_2405.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/anotherqx4/22_RX7_2405.jpg



i know you like this one.. MmMmm...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/anotherqx4/787Bmotor.jpg



i got a lot more pics but i dont wanna totally hi-jack this thread (i think i already have...)...

Total hijakced.. I am brining this back to life, any updates guys?
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Nothing new. We'll probably have to wait until later in the season before we hear anything. If anyone is at any of the upcoming races, take pictures if youo can get up close to the engine bay. At least that way I can tell what has changed.

any updates, rumors, or anything on the future, 4 rotor? lola? whats going on?

A few postings in here- http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=93978