Anyone see the movie Contact with Jodie Foster?

In Contact, Occam's Razor is discussed and is a recurring theme of the theme of the movie. A Google search under the term will yield more data, but in a nutshell, Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation for a phenomena is often the correct one. For a little more and a visual, see

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/occams_razor.html

Using Occam's Razor on the RX-8, with the tests from Japan and the dyno numbers as evidence, it would seem that the Hi-Power Renesis just doesn't produce the advertised horsepower. That's all. Simple, Logical. And unfortunate. :(

After all the rampant conjecture on here, I thought the principle was relevant and may give everyone a new slant on things.

Sorry but I do not accept an argument for ignorance as a 'new slant'. If everybody were to take the simplest explanation, sure there would be less speculation and conjecture in the world but the entire reason for boards like these are speculation and conjecture sometimes...and not without merit either.

Actually, the simplest, most logical viewpoint is that the published acceleration numbers make total sense for a 247hp peaky powerband in a 3000lb car.

If it really only had 180rwhp, it wouldn't be able to hit 14's in the quarter or go to 60 in under 6 seconds.

Occam's Razor is scientific philosophical BS... there is never ever one single reason any one thing happens in real life. you can say that "this body in void moved away from this other body because it hit it", but the real world isn't a void, a laboratory, or under any sort of control (no matter how hard we try).

i'm not bashin' on you Don, but yes the low HP is evident, and probably is from one definable thing (ie: Mazda has weird programming on the ECU), but for most other things that silly idea so held-on-high by that silly movie (it really was awful) is just baloney.

I have yet to see a production version with straight-line performance that would support the 5.9 0-60 and sub-15 1/4 mile. We all know about the best motoring video, as well as reports from Japan's CAR magazine, and that British pub, too.

I mentioned the movie, but it is true, in real life the simplest explanation is often the simplest one. Why would Mazda do all that crazy ECU mapping right before release? None of the explanations- attacking the testing method, theories about dyno'ing a rotary, 25 hp will free up after break-in, etc... really make any sense. It's almost painful to watch them get posted here.

Everyone seems to love the car anyway- and for me, it was the handling I did not like. The engine was wonderful no matter how many HP it made. The RX-8 may be more like the Miata than originally thought- not really a performance machine compared to its contemporaries, but a car that is greater then the sum its parts that is wonderful fun to drive.

Originally posted by DonG35Miata
Why would Mazda do all that crazy ECU mapping right before release? None of the explanations- attacking the testing method, theories about dyno'ing a rotary, 25 hp will free up after break-in, etc... really make any sense.

I might be tempted to agree, but on one of the other threads, someone posted a picture of a section of the RX-7's mechanic's manual. That section specifically referred to the mapping of the ECU changing after some specified mileage (I forget the number). So, I think we can, at the least, hope that's the solution and not something as dastardly as selling the car with a HP rating at odds with the advertising and promotion.:confused:

Originally posted by DonG35Miata
I have yet to see a production version with straight-line performance that would support the 5.9 0-60 and sub-15 1/4 mile. We all know about the best motoring video, as well as reports from Japan's CAR magazine, and that British pub, too.


ok
a) Please, someone, show me a quote from someone at mazda talking about this "emissions remapping"...
b) if the ECU was reprogrammed for emissions, they would NOT make it run rich (as seen in the one dyno thread), this would lead to more unburnt HC's... (from my understanding, correct me if i'm wrong)
c)Your Occam's razor conjecture has nothing to do with these discussions... yes, the HP is not showing up on the dyno, i don't think anyone disputes that, the question is: WHY is the HP not showing up?? Just saying that it's "missing" doesn't mean anything... people are trying to figure out possible causes, reasons, instead of throwing their hands up in the air and saying "Woe is me, this car is broken!!!"

This was in another post in the Tech forum.

That is WAY rich, I own a second gen and ive seen them pick up 10+ HP from leaning out the factory maps. A map that rich will most likley pick up 20+ from leaning out. Here is an image out of a S4 NA rx7's factory service manuel confirming the mileage switch. If the 8 is the same, dont try dynoing it until 20,000 miles. I'd expect gas mileage to pick up after that too a bit.

86rx7 has attached this image:


The image didn't copy?? It's on page 3 of "Dyno Reults", by 86rx7.

Originally posted by DonG35Miata
...but it is true, in real life the simplest explanation is often the simplest one...

Huh? Oh, ok

None of the explanations.... really make any sense...

You've got to be kidding.

It's almost painful to watch them get posted here..."

Speaking of painful, I DID see Contact.

Don, I've noticed that many of your posts contain two primary elements. The first is negative conclusions you've jumped to about this car you say you ordered and then changed your mind on because it didn't handle well (?!) The second is a backhanded bit of praise about the car itself like "...not really a performance machine compared to its contemporaries, but a car that is greater then the sum its parts..." say huh?

If you don't like the miriad of logical and reasonable theories for why the few dyno results we have don't measure up to our own self-proclaimed expectations that's fine. Then to you the most logical explanation is that the hp is missing and Mazda screwed up, you've stated this opinion often.

Frankly using the flawed and simplistic Occam's theory will probably result in each one of us reaching a different 'simplest' conclusion depending on our frame of reference.

Don, you seem to be knocking on the same door over and over again. I think everybody has heard your viewpoint you have reiterated on multiple threads, can't you cool out for a few weeks and talk about something else. It does start to grate on the nerves. The issue will not get solved tomorrow, time while bear out the issue.

If any assumptions/observations used to explain a phenomenon could be excluded, leaving the those remaining sufficient, - those excluded most likely are irrelevant.

E.g. the color of RX-8's being dynoed would fall under Occam's Razor, but not fuel remapping or many of the other suggested explainations.

Don't learn philosophy from Hollywood;)

/Elak

Are you nervous? :cool:

Originally posted by brothervoodoo
Don, you seem to be knocking on the same door over and over again. I think everybody has heard your viewpoint you have reiterated on multiple threads, can't you cool out for a few weeks and talk about something else. It does start to grate on the nerves. The issue will not get solved tomorrow, time while bear out the issue.

Say what you want about Occam's Razor; I learned about it from the movie, but it seems to be given plenty of play on the web on websites that discuss science.

I guess my viewpoint as an RX-8 outsider is a little different, and you are right, I should forget about the HP issue and discuss other things on these threads. But I am going to say my prediction is that the ultimate resolution of this matter (if Mazda does not avoid it entirely- a possibility) will be an official announcement that the RX-8, in delivered form, does not make 247 hp, just like the situation with the Miata a few years back. I just don't see any other outcome, for a lot of reasons. And with the performance numbers I am seeing, no, I don't consider it a performance machine as I might an S2000, WRX or 350Z. Acceleration and autocross perfromance do count for something. I love my Miata, it is definitely a sports car that is a ball to drive, but not a high performance machine. Putting the RX-8 in the same category is a compliment in my book. And as I said, I plan on driving another sample to make sure my first impression was not an anomaly.

If I am wrong about the missing HP, I will post an "I was wrong" topic and take all the barbs and insults you guys want to throw at me... :)

No not nervous. I've already stated my point in the earlier threads. I'm neither harping on the issue or defending the car. The car handles great but if I didn't get what "was advertised", I expect some form of compensation. In the meantime I'm enjoying what I have. :)

Originally posted by TybeeRX-8
This was in another post in the Tech forum.



The image didn't copy?? It's on page 3 of "Dyno Reults", by 86rx7.

Ok, here's your image :D

Originally posted by DonG35Miata
I have yet to see a production version with straight-line performance that would support the 5.9 0-60 and sub-15 1/4 mile.

don look in the aussie section. a new article/review there has a production car running the 1/4 mile in 14.9secs.

if you don't like your car sale it . go buy a 350z i give you 10,000 for it it only has 210 anyway . j/k was the big deal you can only go 65 mph anyway .

Originally posted by zoom44


don look in the aussie section. a new article/review there has a production car running the 1/4 mile in 14.9secs.

Thanks! Will check the media section.

Don, I do you really think we needed another half-thoughtout thread bashing then backhandedly complimenting the RX-8? How many more ways are you going to find to do the same thing? I don't know whether to be impressed with the number of ways you insult/compliment or whether I should just be bored at this point. I'm sorry for sounding like an ***, but I'm just really getting tired of this incessant whining.

Anyway, the conclusion you draw is not necessarily correct. First of all, saying that -
Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation for a phenomena is often the correct one.
is correct to a point, but without a good definition of "simplest", you can't get a good feeling for what Occam's razor really means. I realize that you were trying to simplify it, but in doing so you went so far as to miss important aspects of it. Phrased another way without mentioning simplicity, Occam's razor says that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html) This gets at the same idea, but it's a bit better defined than the way you phrased it. I've read many articles on Occam's razor, and an article is really what it takes because there is a lot to it. Often the simplest ideas (there's that word again) can be complicated to implement.

If we apply Occam's razor to the missing horsepower issue, we have to assume that Mazda did not correctly dyno the engine in the years they spent developing it, or they did know it was low on HP and yet they still released the car with the wrong numbers. The first would be pure idiocy, and the second is corporate suicide. Yes, it happened with the Miata, but that makes it far less likely that they would make the same mistake again. Both of those things are incredibly unlikely, and take a long chain of not at all simple events to happen. If we give an "Occam's razor score" to the idea that all of those things have happened and that the horsepower is really gone, we get a pretty bad score. In addition, one should look at how well the theory we're judging addresses all of the facts in the case, as opposed to how it answers just a few. The idea that the RENESIS simply will not make any more power does not address the issue of the engine running rich exactly where it's low on power! It's a very well known fact among people who work on rotary (and piston) engines that when you run an engine too rich, it doesn't make full power. It does offer benefits during breakin. So, your theory does pretty poorly against both Occam's razor and it fails to address other known facts.


On the other hand, we could take a look at the "Occam's razor score" of another possibility. Namely, let's see how the idea that the ECU remains in a safe mode during a breakin period stacks up to ol' Occam. First, this fits more facts than the "Mazda screwed up" theory, since it addresses the issue of the engine running rich. This is exactly what we would expect to see if the ECU will remap at some point. It also is far more simple than the other theory, since it's already documented that previous rotary engines have had this exact thing done to their ECUs! In other words, this exact situation has been seen before, making it a very "simple" theory in terms of Occam's razor. We don't need to assume anything about Mazda forgetting to dyno the RENESIS, we don't need to assume anything about Mazda lying to the customer, and we don't need to assume anything extra to account for the engine running rich. The only things we need to assume are that Mazda has done the exact same thing they have done with previous rotary engines, and that they have not announced it yet. I believe that explination is clearly and obviously far more simple, and therefore is the leading candidate from the perspective of Occam's razor.

That doesn't make it right, but it does make it more likely than the idea that Mazda simply screwed up again.

Despite the fact that I allowed myself to be dragged into this again, I will ask again that we please give Mazda a little bit of time to address this! We don't have any new information from Mazda, and until we do this is simply going to degenerate into my speculation against your speculation. Why do that when simple patience will deliver the answer?

No not nervous. I've already stated my point in the earlier threads. I'm neither harping on the issue or defending the car. The car handles great but if I didn't get what "was advertised", I expect some form of compensation. In the meantime I'm enjoying what I have.

This is exactly how I am approaching this situation.

I have read every line of every post of every thread regarding this HP loss, with this being my very first post regarding the matter.

I doubt there can exist any more conclusions to something we don't know the answer to. Rich's conclusion makes the most sense, but we keep harping on this like it will help us: the owners; or those who have ordered, or the prospective buyer, or even Mazda. I believe your participation in these threads are doing more long-term harm than short-term good.

Fact is, I am enjoying the hell out of my RX-8, as is.

I am getting sick and tired of the complete lack of intellect that many posters developed suddenly after this dyno issue was 'discovered.'

The Renesis has been in development for over 10 years. It's not something that Mazda cooked up overnight, for Pete's sake! We already know that the motor DOES make the requisite power, because pre-production models performed up to spec, the Star Mazda series motors perform up to spec, etc, etc etc . If there is a deficiency with production models, it has to be an ECU mapping issue. If the doubters would pull their heads out from their asses and look at the A/F ratios, they would see that the Renesis gets richer and richer as the revs rise, which hurts top end power.

Do you really think that Mazda would shoot itself in the foot over the car that embodies the company? For years, Mazda has been just another small car company, struggling to make it's mark and be destinctive, because they haven't had the rotary. Mazda is the rotary, and the engineers love that motor. We're only here today arguing about this nonsense because Mazda engineers worked in their spare time, and against orders from Ford management, developing the side-port Wankel. Without the rotary, Mazda is little more than Ford Japan, and they know that. The RX-8 must succeed if we're going to see Mazda succeed as an independant company. The Miata issue was an administrative foul-up, but what many people are suggesting about the RX-8 is deliberate deception on the part of Mazda. That is, quite simply put, bullshit. It doesn't make any sense for Mazda to be anything but 100 percent sure of the RX-8 and it's capabilities. Anything less, and Mazda risks losing it's identity and what little autonomy it has left.

It's not rocket science folks! We really only have two possibilities, either Mazda deliberately made a change to the fuel maps in the ECU to protect the motor during break-in, or there was a mapping mistake. If it was a mistake, it is not the end of the world, nor the end of the rotary. It's a simple procedure for Mazda dealers to re map the ECU, and bingo, your beloved 247 hp will appear.

In the meantime you all are looking rather foolish right now, running around like Chicken Little, warning that the sky is on the way down. It should be enough that qualified tuners like Paul Yaw have no concerns, but of course, this is the Internet, where ignorance reigns supreme. Give it a rest.

somebody pleeeeeeease cut off dons threads,it seems to me he is the one that could not buy one for what ever reasons (mini cooper is better crap)so all he can do is sit on here and bash the car and bash mazda and his last 5 or 6 threads have been a pile of non educated crap whining about low hp #S of a car he doesnt even own.this really is a non issue in my opnion,last night we rodded a s2k just to make sure one last time and then went and drove the 8 shifting at 5000 rpms.the 8 is one fast car,and im on my way to sign the papers in a few minutes(wooooo f*** hooooo)for everyone else,just venting and used to like dons contributions to this board but enough is enough!!

***Moderator Edit***

This is just Block911 again. Don't pay him no nevermind.

Smolten, Don't ever change. I for one find it impressive that a someone with an intellect suited for small woodland creatures can still find the time to ignorantly post inaccurate drivel via a keyboard while having his head securely up his own ass...how do you see?

Nice picture by the way, is that your Mommy?

Since I know sight is a problem from your vantage point, the numbers from C & D and most other magazines were 5.9sec to 60 and 14.5 in the QM...not that such complexities matter...

Originally posted by akrx8
somebody pleeeeeeease cut off dons threads,it seems to me he is the one that could not buy one for what ever reasons (mini cooper is better crap)so all he can do is sit on here and bash the car and bash mazda and his last 5 or 6 threads have been a pile of non educated crap whining about low hp #S of a car he doesnt even own.this really is a non issue in my opnion,last night we rodded a s2k just to make sure one last time and then went and drove the 8 shifting at 5000 rpms.the 8 is one fast car,and im on my way to sign the papers in a few minutes(wooooo f*** hooooo)for everyone else,just venting and used to like dons contributions to this board but enough is enough!!

No need to cut me off, I am leaving on my own... I have come to accept that I find the RX-8 to be a big disappointment. Mazda tried to be too many things to too many people, and in doing so, messed up big time. This was my impression initially, and my test drive and the latest performance tests in print and in video are starting to prove this out. The car is softly sprung, has poor real-world performance (7.5 sec 5-60, based on a preproduction car with all the ponies- production model may be slower- the Best Motoring video shows it can't keep up with its contemporaries), produces a lot of heat in the passenger compartment (poor design and insulation- how did this get past pre-production testing?), does not really carry four adults comfortably (try sitting back there), and gets SUV-like fuel economy. When you add the dyno results on top of all this, I do not think the RX-8 is going to make it and is going to be the last rotary engine automobile produced.

I was and am a rotary lover. When I see what Mazda has actually delivered, I am supremely disappointed. They should have made it a real sports car, or a real sports sedan. About the best thing you can say about the car is it delivers a good subjective feel. In a $20,000 Miata, it is enough. In a $30,000 flagship car, it is not.

Mazda is going after the mainstream with this car. Car and Driver just tested an Accord V6 coupe with a manual transmission. It had a 5-60 time of 6.3 seconds, is more roomy than the RX-8 in the back, is a few thousand less, and got an observed 23MPG compared to the
RX-8's 15mpg. When John Q. Public goes shopping, what is he going to think?

1. Honda sure felt faster!
2. Honda is proven, Mazda has weird engine
3. Honda has more room
4. I hear those rotaries use a lot of gas
5. Honda is FWD, good for the winter
6. No spare tire? No run-flats? WTF?
7. Small trunk with difficult access.

Some of these points apply to the G35 and some other competitors as well. Don't think the Honda salespeople (or Infiniti salespeople) aren't going to drive these points home, where applicable. When people search on the web, they will find a lot of what they say is true, and buy G35s and Accord V6s.

Sure, enthusiasts would not necessarily compare the RX-8 with an Accord Coupe. Enthusiasts know the benefit of RWD, high-revving engines, etc... but a lot of these enthusiasts will steer away from the RX-8 for a less compromised performance machine. Many here compare the car with the S2000. What do S2000 drivers thing of the RX-8? Check out the results here.

S2000 drivers speak: RX-8 or G35? (http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141109)

From drivers of a car with a high-revving engine that has been compared in character to the RX-8, this is a disturbing trend.

As for the Mini Cooper S being better, I have said it was more fun to drive. It definitely is more nimble and corners flatter than the RX-8, and is much more responsive at low speeds. I have also said that I thought any Mazda would be more reliable and would not buy a Mini Cooper of any stripe unless I had two reliable Japanese cars in my driveway, which I do.
I think it is a good toy but a lousy car, almost in the same sense of an exotic, though the running costs are way less.

Time will tell how this pans out. Will the horsepower be found? I think the answer is simple and don't go for all the conspiracy theories floating around. I hope I am wrong. The bad publicity would really hurt the possibility of future rotaries. If Mazda had put the engine, even with 220hp, in a 2,700 lb two-passenger two-door coupe shell for $25,000 well equipped, they would not have been able to keep up with demand. Instead, we get compromises for both the average buyer and the performance-oriented enthusiast. I loved the look of the RX-8 in and out- if I loved driving it, I was ready to say "WTF" and take the plunge. But it just didn't happen.

Sorry if I took a negative turn the past few weeks, but my disappointment in the car and in Mazda is real. I suspect duplicity on Mazda's part about the hp issue, and this has compounded my disappointment. Time will tell, but 25hp does not grow on trees. The UK cars are well under 250hp, and the cars sat at port a long time, and something about port work was mentioned. Something stinks here. Time will tell.

Enjoy your cars everyone! I'm outta here. (Now you can post your snide comments about being glad I am gone.)

wow done...thats a lot of hate to dish out, and i for one am hurtin man...

i really dont see how you could possibly say you dont like the way it drives, it makes me even wonder if you drove it to be honest, but i guesse im an idiot cause i beleive what people say.

as for the fuel economy, the peopel getting low mpg are driving way to hard, it doesnt matter if your shifting at 3k revs and are going the speed limit, if you mash the gass, you burn a lot of excess fuel, ive got 165 miles on mine (HOORAY!) and still have a nearly full tank (~3/4 a tank, maybe a little less) so thats nearly some pretty good mileage there, and people are getting 24mpg and usually around 20 so "SUV like" mpg isnt exactly true

and if you try to get to 60 from 5 in 6th gear then your obviously an idiot that cant drive a manual...however, im going to assume (since you said you can...) that you CAN drive a manual and would have the sense to drop a cog or two

you also said the cooper was practicle (blahhAhAhAHahahA) cause it had good trunk space (5cub correct? blahAhAHa) which makes me wonder...true, you get some good space if you fold down the seats, but thats like using a backseat as a spare trunk so whats the point?

anyway, have fun with whatever you buy...sure some of us cant understand your comments (like the handling thing...) but everyones different, chances are youll be very upset when everyone starts praising the car (even more so than now, as its won every comparison) and you dont have one, but hopefully youll be happy with whatever you end up getting

on another note, whats that thing?

ciao
________
THE CIGAR BOSS (http://thecigarboss.com/)

Shoot, that's frustrating. That's the second time in just a few days that after starting a thread and having his points decimated, he hasn't responded. Oh well.

Originally posted by Rich
Shoot, that's frustrating. That's the second time in just a few days that after starting a thread and having his points decimated, he hasn't responded. Oh well.

I am with you on the "oh, well." Don seems like a smart guy, but damn, I have never heard so much whining. At first I listened to what he had to say, but after a while it got old. I think his problem with the 8, has nothing to do with the 8 at all. He would find fault with anything. (except the g35 sedan;) of course ). I mean...give him a choice between Carmen Electra, or Pam Anderson, and the dude would still debate on their "imperfections", while all of us would be struggling to get our pants off as fast as possible. Oh well, whatever.

Well said Billdo, you seem to have hit the nail on the head. When you look back through Don's posts it's obvious that he's the kind of guy that would complain about the heft of the bills in his wallet should he win the lottery.

I'm seriously thinking of emailing the olympic committee in his honor though. The sport of Conclusion Jumping should be added to the schedule.

blahaHAHAHaHahAhahaha

personally id run from either of them though...

anyway, guys, i think thats enough, poor guy, true he whined a whole lot, but still lol
________
Toys Bondage (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/1088/bondage/videos/1)

Originally posted by DonG35Miata


No need to cut me off, I am leaving on my own... I have come to accept that I find the RX-8 to be a big disappointment. Mazda tried to be too many things to too many people, and in doing so, messed up big time. This was my impression initially, and my test drive and the latest performance tests in print and in video are starting to prove this out. The car is softly sprung, has poor real-world performance (7.5 sec 5-60, based on a preproduction car with all the ponies- production model may be slower- the Best Motoring video shows it can't keep up with its contemporaries), produces a lot of heat in the passenger compartment (poor design and insulation- how did this get past pre-production testing?), does not really carry four adults comfortably (try sitting back there), and gets SUV-like fuel economy. When you add the dyno results on top of all this, I do not think the RX-8 is going to make it and is going to be the last rotary engine automobile produced.

I was and am a rotary lover. When I see what Mazda has actually delivered, I am supremely disappointed. They should have made it a real sports car, or a real sports sedan. About the best thing you can say about the car is it delivers a good subjective feel. In a $20,000 Miata, it is enough. In a $30,000 flagship car, it is not.

Mazda is going after the mainstream with this car. Car and Driver just tested an Accord V6 coupe with a manual transmission. It had a 5-60 time of 6.3 seconds, is more roomy than the RX-8 in the back, is a few thousand less, and got an observed 23MPG compared to the
RX-8's 15mpg. When John Q. Public goes shopping, what is he going to think?

1. Honda sure felt faster!
2. Honda is proven, Mazda has weird engine
3. Honda has more room
4. I hear those rotaries use a lot of gas
5. Honda is FWD, good for the winter
6. No spare tire? No run-flats? WTF?
7. Small trunk with difficult access.

Some of these points apply to the G35 and some other competitors as well. Don't think the Honda salespeople (or Infiniti salespeople) aren't going to drive these points home, where applicable. When people search on the web, they will find a lot of what they say is true, and buy G35s and Accord V6s.

Sure, enthusiasts would not necessarily compare the RX-8 with an Accord Coupe. Enthusiasts know the benefit of RWD, high-revving engines, etc... but a lot of these enthusiasts will steer away from the RX-8 for a less compromised performance machine. Many here compare the car with the S2000. What do S2000 drivers thing of the RX-8? Check out the results here.

S2000 drivers speak: RX-8 or G35? (http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141109)

From drivers of a car with a high-revving engine that has been compared in character to the RX-8, this is a disturbing trend.

As for the Mini Cooper S being better, I have said it was more fun to drive. It definitely is more nimble and corners flatter than the RX-8, and is much more responsive at low speeds. I have also said that I thought any Mazda would be more reliable and would not buy a Mini Cooper of any stripe unless I had two reliable Japanese cars in my driveway, which I do.
I think it is a good toy but a lousy car, almost in the same sense of an exotic, though the running costs are way less.

Time will tell how this pans out. Will the horsepower be found? I think the answer is simple and don't go for all the conspiracy theories floating around. I hope I am wrong. The bad publicity would really hurt the possibility of future rotaries. If Mazda had put the engine, even with 220hp, in a 2,700 lb two-passenger two-door coupe shell for $25,000 well equipped, they would not have been able to keep up with demand. Instead, we get compromises for both the average buyer and the performance-oriented enthusiast. I loved the look of the RX-8 in and out- if I loved driving it, I was ready to say "WTF" and take the plunge. But it just didn't happen.

Sorry if I took a negative turn the past few weeks, but my disappointment in the car and in Mazda is real. I suspect duplicity on Mazda's part about the hp issue, and this has compounded my disappointment. Time will tell, but 25hp does not grow on trees. The UK cars are well under 250hp, and the cars sat at port a long time, and something about port work was mentioned. Something stinks here. Time will tell.

Enjoy your cars everyone! I'm outta here. (Now you can post your snide comments about being glad I am gone.)


I hope you don't go as you have been one of the long-time dissenters on this board giving honest and valid criticisms in an intelligent manner. Of course, sometimes they are dramatical enough to win an oscar.:p

Anyhow, I am in agreement with you on many of the points you made relating to the RX8s compromises and it being a dissapointment. I waited over 2 years for the RX8 (putting off a new car purchase) and expected more. Those who have been on the board may rememeber some of the expectations below:

1) Superior performance (many felt the RX8 would outperform the S2000)

2) Vastly improved fuel economy (owner reports are showing little if any improvement over the RX7 and worse MPG than the STI and EVO) - however, I think this may completely go away if the Air-Fuel Ratio issue is solved.

3) Curb Weight - Many expected 2,900 lbs. or less, but it was about 100 or so lbs higher in a car without a spare tire and tools.

4) Handling - many qualitative criticisms of the soft-tuning of the suspension (i.e understeer, body-roll, etc.) and mediocre skidpad slalom test results.

5) Continuing quality control issues (i.e stuck ports, air conditioning, missing HP, etc.) on a car that has taken for what seems forever to be brought to market.

I want to stress that I have not test-driven this car yet and many of these impressions may change. However, I have found that if you research a car enough, the test-drive is not that much of a surprise. Stii, I am witholding final judgement until i do test-drive it.

With all this being said, I still believe that the RX8 matches up very well against the entry-level luxury sports sedans (i.e. BMW 3 Series, Lexus IS300, Infiniti G35, etc.) and if I was cross-shopping these cars, I'd pick the RX8.

However, since Mazda is marketing this as a "Sports Car Like No Other", it will be compared to more purposeful-built machines. Unfortunately, Mazda seems to exaggerate too much in its marketing (i.e. Mazda 6 - "Sports Sedan", RX8 - "Clean"- though its smog polluting rating did look excellent, but a car that gets SUV mileage should not make the "Clean" assertion IMHO). Considering the huge amount of advertizing Mazda has already done (and will do), they are going to be (and should be) challenged on these claims.

I will agree that the RX8 is trying to be so many things to so many people that its sports car character is a bit too diluted. Its shape (i.e. suicide doors, extended roofline/short rear window) and performance has been compromised. People cross-shopping this car with more focused sports cars need to focus on what this car really is - a unique, sporty entry-level sports sedan.

The RX8 has a superior base platform, but its tuning leaves much to be desired for the harder core sports-car customer. The RX8 reminds me of the athlete who has so much talent, but was lazy and never trained. While cars like the Mazdaspeed Protege, EVO, etc. have less ability, they have more motivation to realize their talent. I know which one i'd want on my team. I understand some of the flaws in the RX8 can be partially compensated through the aftermarket, but its very tough to tweak the suspension without making it feel like a "tuner car". In addition, IMHO opinion a $30-35K "Sports Car Like No Other" should not have to be vastly adjusted to make it handle like a sports car.

I also agree with you in that a car more like an RX7 should have initially been built. Everyone knows the rotary is best-suited for a lightweight 2 seater or 2X2. I think with a lower production volume (say 10,000-15,000 in the United States) it would have sold very well as their base (enthusiasts) would have gobbled them up. Then as people recognized Mazda's (and the Renesis's) superior performance, the RX8 (being marketed as a very sporty sports sedan) would do better, but that's just my opinion.

Overall, I think Mazda has a great car line-up. The Protege (do we really need to replace it with the 3?) and Mazdaspeed variant are the best/most fun in the economy and FWD sport compact segments, respectively. The Miata is an excellent entry-level roadster (though I prefer the MR2). The 6 is the most fun in the family sedan market while the RX8 is the most sporty in the entry-level luxury sports-sedan, but is not a good match in the ~ 30K sports car segment (i.e. Mazda needs an RX7).

BTW Don, if you are considering the Mini, I would take a look at the sport-compact market as its quite competitive and has a lot to offer. Specifically, the Mazdaspeed Protege, Celica, and RSX. Granted, many of them have boy-racer looks, but they are quite fun and have high quality and pretty cheap to run.

revhappy -

Great example of a way to present a dissenting opinion in a very reasonable and non-inflamatory way. Thumbs up!

Originally posted by Rich
revhappy -

Great example of a way to present a dissenting opinion in a very reasonable and non-inflamatory way. Thumbs up!


Thanks, Rich. A lot of times we get passionate on here and express ourselves in an inflammatory manner. However, I think a lot of the dissenters (outside of the obvious trolls) really like the car, but want it to be perfect in regards to our individual taste. The frustration over those imperfections sometimes overshadows our underlying appreiation of the car.

Originally posted by revhappy

3) Curb Weight - Many expected 2,900 lbs. or less, but it was about 100 or so lbs higher in a car without a spare tire and tools.

4) Handling - many qualitative criticisms of the soft-tuning of the suspension (i.e understeer, body-roll, etc.) and mediocre skidpad slalom test results.

There's a thread around where an owner took his RX-8 to the scales, 2908 lbs. I believe the 3029 lbs spec by Mazda is with every option available, maybe even includig app package.

0.91g lateral acceleration and one of the fastest emergency lane change speeds ever is considered mediocre?

Originally posted by neit_jnf


There's a thread around where an owner took his RX-8 to the scales, 2908 lbs. I believe the 3029 lbs spec by Mazda is with every option available, maybe even includig app package.

0.91g lateral acceleration and one of the fastest emergency lane change speeds ever is considered mediocre?

I beleive that he didn't have his gas tank full (the appropriate way to measure curb weight) and the consensus was that the Sport model was 2,983 lbs. Figuring there is no spare tire and toola (~ 40 lbs.), even the lighter"Sport" model is over 3,000 lbs. Last fall, most people were anticpating significantly lower curb weights.

As for the emergency lane-change test, sometimes a good score is also a bad thing as it indicates the car is too stable. This was actually the comment from Car and Driver TV when they showed the STI getting a higher speed than the EVO (the auto magazine consensus better handler).

In regards to the Skidpad, i think I have seen from the mid .8s to the low .9s, which is good, but not class (sports car) leading. Still, I think the slalom test is a better metric as it measures transient handling. Of course, no test is perfect (i.e. the gearing and oversteer has a big effect on the slalom test and tires have a big impact on the skidpad exam) and must be used in conjunction with the qualitative comments.

Originally posted by revhappy

...As for the emergency lane-change test, sometimes a good score is also a bad thing as it indicates the car is too stable....

In regards to the Skidpad, i think I have seen from the mid .8s to the low .9s, which is good, but not class (sports car) leading.

With regards to the lane change comment, I can see your point, but I have yet to see any magazine note that the RX-8 seems too planted, quite the opposite actually. Any car that can slalom almost 3mph faster than a new Miata is doing just fine. After my drives in the RX-8 I can say it would stay with my Miata R on just about any road.

When it comes to skidpad, I've seen .88g - .91g also which I think is class leading when compared with it's contemporaries... Per 4/03 R & T:

350Z Track = .88g
Porsche Boxter = .89g
Porsche Carrera = .91g
Lotus Esprit V8 = .90g
Lamborghini Murcielago = .90g
S2000 = .90g
Corvette Anniversary = .89g
Caterham Super Seven = .88g (that one surprised me)
Acura NSX = .91g

Pretty serious sports car territory really.

(I can't help mentioning because it blows my mind that it beats every one of these cars by a healthy margin when braking from 60 or 80 also. (The Porsches come close though) I can't wait to take one of these to a track day at PIR)

Originally posted by Shamus


With regards to the lane change comment, I can see your point, but I have yet to see any magazine note that the RX-8 seems too planted, quite the opposite actually. Any car that can slalom almost 3mph faster than a new Miata is doing just fine. After my drives in the RX-8 I can say it would stay with my Miata R on just about any road.

When it comes to skidpad, I've seen .88g - .91g also which I think is class leading when compared with it's contemporaries... Per 4/03 R & T:

350Z Track = .88g
Porsche Boxter = .89g
Porsche Carrera = .91g
Lotus Esprit V8 = .90g
Lamborghini Murcielago = .90g
S2000 = .90g
Corvette Anniversary = .89g
Caterham Super Seven = .88g (that one surprised me)
Acura NSX = .91g

Pretty serious sports car territory really.

(I can't help mentioning because it blows my mind that it beats every one of these cars by a healthy margin when braking from 60 or 80 also. (The Porsches come close though) I can't wait to take one of these to a track day at PIR)


I'm not saying the RX8 is a bad handling car, but when you look at the qualitative comments many reviewers have stated the car is tuned relatively softly. Road and Track said "and some very un- RX7 roll softness".

As for Road and Track it got .88 on the skidpad in that issue. Its competitive for sure, but not the superior handling (that it needs since it lacks the power of the others) that as hoped for. Anyhow, I'm more concerned with the qualitative comments. I have no doubt about the potential in the platform, its just too tuned too soft IMHO.

I've been very impressed with the breaking, and it is near the top of the class.

the chassis and shocks are so well designed that you dont feel much/any roll unless you REALLY try to and push real hard

i was in some twisties with my brother (highly trained driver) and he wanted me to let him "show me what it can do" and beleive me, i was STUNNED "at what it can do" the braking, handling, in all honesty, i didnt feel any roll (mighta been cause i was freakin out from excitement) and i was really being pushed into the sides of the seat.

thank god he didnt push the engine that hard though (never a shift above 7, mostly around 5.5-6)

the breaks also showed themselves to be incredibly powerful, much more powerful than id previously thought

anyway, i really didnt notice much, if any body roll to compare of, sure if you going all out on a track, it might come up, but thrashing around the twisties you probably wont notice it, at least i didnt, although i might have if i was more used to the car and wanst so excited, though he didnt comment (doubt he could think taking the size of the smile on his face into account) he might have noticed something, but i doubt it, although im not going to say its not there, i am going to say you probably wont notice it

hopefully i can go out for another "tutorial" tomorow or monday
________
White widow seeds (http://marijuanaseeds.org/)

POOMan, when people mentioned the handling, rolly soft suspension and power, we usually mean it in a comparative manner. I am sure the RX-8 is more fun to drive, faster, and has firmer suspension than most cars out there, but compare to other SPORT sedan/coupe/roasters in this price segment, I do feel Don's post is quite accurate. One thing Mazda did right was the agile handling of the RX-8.

Occam's Razor, I guess that theory is quite on taget. ;) All these weeks of speculation and finally an answer from Mazda. Quite amusing to go back to old threads and read the discussions involved now.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
Occam's Razor, I guess that theory is quite on taget. ;)

Yup! LOL- vindicated

As an S2000 owner, I read this thread with much interest, but from somewhat detached perspective. It was quite fascinating to observe how one's love for a particular car can cloud sound judgement.

Good job, Don:)