US RX-8 sales (not good) [Archive]

New Yorker

03-02-2006, 06:58 AM

It seems to me you have to have a special place in your heart for the Rotary, to purchase one. John Q. Public does not know the Rotary engine…

I suspect the rotary is the biggest problem; it limits the appeal of the car to "car enthusiast's only." Think about it—an ordinary non-car enthusiast shopper notices the RX-8 on the showroom floor or in a parking lot and is initially attracted and intrigued—"wow, I can even fit the kids back there"—but as soon as they learn that there's some strange engine in it that's different from all the other engines in all the other cars, they're wary. "Okay, this rotary, what's the advantage? Well, it's smaller and lighter so it can be placed low and further back in the car." "So what's the advantage of that?""Well it handles great and "feels" great." "Uh… okay, is that it?" "Well, it's also very smooth and simpler, with less moving parts. "Huh??"

If the 8 had a "regular" engine these same people might think "hmm, it's cool, what the heck, I'll get one." As it stands, the idea of buying a car with a strange engine, poor fuel economy and not a whole lot of push-you-back-in-the-seat acceleration makes the idea of purchasing an RX-8 seem illogical and irrational. For the casual car buyer, the rotary engine offers not one clear advantage over traditional engines. It's unusual, and for most people, unusual = bad, unless the unusual offers a clear, obvious advantage.

I love the idea of the rotary—its simplicity, its sound, its smoothness. And I'm aware of, and perfectly happy to accept, the Faustian bargain the RX-8 offers: trade fuel economy for superb feel and handling. Sure, some ordinary John Q. types might accept mediocre mileage if they got great acceleration in return, but trade fuel economy for "feel" and "handling"!?! Are you nuts??"

Of course, the fact that I appreciate innovative design, engineering, and "feel & handling" over straight-line acceleration will always put me in a tiny minority—even amongsts car nuts.
So be it.

Tirminyl

03-02-2006, 06:58 AM

Well, lets see. 03-04 the car was NEW and just came out. Sales would be good (normally) for a new car to the market. 05, sales slump, no good advertising and fire in plant causing halt in production. 06 JUST FREAKING STARTED, not many 05's on the lot or there may be tons of 05's on the lot but NO 06's. I have a feeling a few are waiting news on any changes between 05 and 06 models. The car is in need of a face lift and a push for a Mazdaspeed version to bring old and new customers back into their doors.

RX8_GT

03-02-2006, 07:20 AM

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 07:45 AM

Love the rotary engine as you can see by my sig. But it will in North America always be a niche car - and Mazda's flagship engine of choice - but 3 and 6's will pay the bills. In places like Japan and Australia - the rotary is more mainstream.

As long as the numbers will support a small viable US market - great. Let's hope 2006 ends up - since the 'o6s are just getting here.

Models like the MX-5 .... and perhaps the Kabura - wll help keep Mazda in the sportsy car mix.

Like the Vette is for Chevy, the rx8 is the halo car of Mazda. It's a good car and I doubt it matters in sales,if they are flying off the shelf. Mazda will keep producing them and improving them as years go by. The overall Mazda sales will carry the 8. The rx8 draws attention to the whole mazda lineup and helps put Mazda in the forefront. The 8 is good PR for the linup and makes Mazda look good.

bascho

03-02-2006, 07:51 AM

The rx8 draws attention to the whole mazda lineup and helps put Mazda in the forefront. The 8 is good PR for the linup and makes Mazda look good.

I have to disagree with this statement. In my experience, very few people know what I drive......even when I tell them 'RX8' they have no idea what that means. IMO the Mazda6 draws attention to the Mazda line-up. The Mazda6 is the car Mazda heavily advertises and the car your average citizen identifies with Mazda. The Mazda3 has a similar rep since it's début. I've still yet to see a commercial for the RX8......and that's ok with me. I like unique autos that only true enthusiasts know about. If the RX8 wasn't rare and unique, I would not have even considered it.

snizzle

03-02-2006, 07:53 AM

Welp, I guess the RX8 is dead. Webmaster/Mods... it's time to shut down the forum.

Tirminyl

03-02-2006, 07:54 AM

And the RX8 is not dead!

bascho

03-02-2006, 08:01 AM

And the RX8 is not dead!

It IS if Mazda remains complacent in 2007 with regards to the RX8.

Glyphon

03-02-2006, 08:04 AM

possible reason for slow 06 sales....people are waiting for the 06 models, which just now starting to arrive in stock.

that has the absolute newest for those who want that, and it also means that leftover 05s will start being sold with significant incentives to move them to make room for the 06s. the public knows that previous year models will become cheaper when the new MY cars arrive (which for most cars is the fall, so the rx8 was behind schedule to what the public is used to).

rx8wannahave

03-02-2006, 08:06 AM

If the RX8 wasn't rare and unique, I would not have even considered it.

Really? But you want the GT500 which won't be neither...Bascho...I don't understand??? I'm not trying to be harsh buddy...I just don't get that statement from you???

I understand the rare quality of the engine and car we drive but I'd trade the "uniqueness" of our cars for progression of the rotary engine and RX brand.

I'm sorry, but more sales = more development and as long as we hold on to this "unique/rare" mentality the rotary will forever be held back from competing with the piston engine.

Personally, I'd rather see more sales so Mazda would be more motivated to give us a 3-rotor or more powerful 2-rotor....or start putting a rotary in other cars so more people could have the options of experiencing a rotary engine.

Honestly, I agree that alot of people won't buy the RX8 because of the rotary. Maybe they should build a SX8 or something...lol.

djseto

03-02-2006, 08:09 AM

If it goes away, our cars will hold a very good resale value. I am fine with having a car that they dont make any more. Its a rotary powered, Car and Driver 3 Year Running Top 10 sports car, not a Geo Metro, so its sure to hold its own if it suffers a slow death. I hope it doesnt but I wont cry if it does. I personally like the Rotary where it is. It will never compete with a piston an engine and i dont want it to. The wankel has always been unique and it will continue to be. I see it as Windows vs. Mac. Macs are more popular now, but they will never dominate the market. Apple knows this...they will never break into the mainstream business market like Windows has. They can R&D all they want on the rotary, but from a business standpoint, why dump millions into something that we all know will never compete hard with a piston engine for the common driver? It doesnt mean R&D wont happen, but not to the extent it does for pistons

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 08:11 AM

I have to disagree with this statement. In my experience, very few people know what I drive......even when I tell them 'RX8' they have no idea what that means. IMO the Mazda6 draws attention to the Mazda line-up. The Mazda6 is the car Mazda heavily advertises and the car your average citizen identifies with Mazda. The Mazda3 has a similar rep since it's début. I've still yet to see a commercial for the RX8......and that's ok with me. I like unique autos that only true enthusiasts know about. If the RX8 wasn't rare and unique, I would not have even considered it.

The rx8 get's lots of free press and has been articled in every car magazine including popular science. It's been on top gear and raved about thru out the auto industry. It does not really need to be advertised. Anyone interested in cars knows there's an rx8 rotary model in the lineup. The car itself is great advertizement for the mazda product. People see it and want to know more about it. It's the halo product of mazda and shows what the company can do. It's their flagship car. The car will continue to be developed. It will promote sales for other mazda models just by existing.

bascho

03-02-2006, 08:19 AM

Really? But you want the GT500 which won't be neither...Bascho...I don't understand??? I'm not trying to be harsh buddy...I just don't get that statement from you???

The GT500 is going to be very rare and unique......not Mustangs in general, but the GT500 will be. The SVT products are limited production items and they are numbered vehicles. Last year 14,000 RX8's were sold......the GT500 will be limited to 5,000 per year.

rx8wannahave

03-02-2006, 08:20 AM

bascho

03-02-2006, 08:24 AM

The rx8 get's lots of free press and has been articled in every car magazine including popular science. It's been on top gear and raved about thru out the auto industry. It does not really need to be advertised. Anyone interested in cars knows there's an rx8 rotary model in the lineup. The car itself is great advertizement for the mazda product. People see it and want to know more about it. It's the halo product of mazda and shows what the company can do. It's their flagship car. The car will continue to be developed. It will promote sales for other mazda models just by existing.

I agree that the RX8 is Mazda's halo/flagship car. I agree that the RX8 get's lots of press and how respected this car is. But, Joe Q Citizen doesn't read automotive press and probably never heard of a rotary engine. Not everyone that buys a Mazda product even knows or cares about the RX8. I hope what you say about the RX8 being a vehicle that 'shows what Mazda can do' was a joke. If this is all that Mazda can do then Mazda is in trouble. I do hope that continued development is the plan for the RX8......because it is falling behind the competition IMO.

RX-Aight

03-02-2006, 08:26 AM

I was one of the 2005 Nov 884 !

nranly

03-02-2006, 08:34 AM

Doesn't anyone remember the RX-8 commercial when the guy hugs the car and it hugs him back?

nycgps

03-02-2006, 08:38 AM

Do you always make stuff up? where did 90% come from?

Come on, Look at the cars running around on the streets.

U should know better. Since when did Civic (Stock) has FI ? Camry ? Focus ? Corolla? etc.

I dont need to make anything up. U can see it urself.

599 GTB has No FI, Corvette Z06 has no FI.

Ford GT has SuperCharger, yep, one out of how many ?

List goes on. Maybe you can list all the car that has FI (stock) out so we can do a list and see if its over 90%

khtm

03-02-2006, 08:46 AM

Do you always make stuff up? where did 90% come from?
That dude was bragging earlier about having been a high school dropout or something...so I'm just going out on a limb here and guessing that he's never taken a statistics course ;)

nycgps

03-02-2006, 08:56 AM

That dude was bragging earlier about having been a high school dropout or something...so I'm just going out on a limb here and guessing that he's never taken a statistics course ;)

Im not sure if its really 90%, the number should be closer to 95% if u ask me.

Out of all the cars on the market. Seriously, how many of them comes/came with FI ?

Its not like they cant, its just that support cost gonna be a big issue.

Go ahead and name all the ones u know that has FI pre-installed. then u can talk.

bascho

03-02-2006, 08:59 AM

^ when you say 95%......do you mean in the history of automobiles? I just want to get an idea of where to start my list.

nycgps

03-02-2006, 09:03 AM

Maybe I should start it first, Take 05/06 for example, and I will stick to Cars for now.

Toyota :
Corolla - No FI
Matrix - No FI
Camry - No FI
Solora - No FI
Prius - No FI
IS - No FI
ES - No FI
GS - No FI
LS - No FI
(Lexus is part of Toyota, so I just put it together)

Honda :
Accord Coupe/Sedan/Hybrid Sedan - No FI
Civic Coupe/GX NGV/Hybrid Sedan/Sedan/Si Coupe No-FI
RL/TL/RSX/RSX/NSX - No FI

Want me to go for more ?

nranly

03-02-2006, 09:04 AM

The exact number of FI engines, based on North American 2005 engine production is 6.71%. Not including trucks, the number drops to 3.23%.

nycgps

03-02-2006, 09:04 AM

^ when you say 95%......do you mean in the history of automobiles? I just want to get an idea of where to start my list.

Keep it simple, stay at 05/06 for now.

but its still going to be over 90

nranly

03-02-2006, 09:06 AM

Want me to go for more ?

Want a full list?

Oh another thing I found interesting is that only 11.7% of Subaru's come with a turbo. HMMM.

nycgps

03-02-2006, 09:09 AM

Support is always the biggest issue that push OEM away from FI. They can do it. but yeah, sure. they have to raise the price to cover the support cost. and support cost alot (you guys should know how lousy those dealer service department are, most of them are crappy)

This is just the same with every industry. If you are going to give your customer some sort of warranty, you have to put part of the support cost into the price tag of them item that you're going to sell. Yes you can take the risk of selling it at lower price and just pray that the customer will not have any issues. but hey, whos willing to take that risk ?

Ok this is going a little off topic. Maybe we should start another Thread ?

Raptor75

03-02-2006, 09:17 AM

While the competitors have been getting small increases in HP over the years the RX-8 has been going down. Originally 250 then 238 no 232. Instead of screwing the car up in attempts to lengthen the life of the catalytic converter Mazda should redesign the thing to take the heat and retune the engine for more HP and MPG. The RX has a rap of being underpowered and Mazda has done nothing to counter this.

The MPG of the RX is a death sentence for this car in these times, the fact that there are people out there that get 10 to 13 mpg and the dealers have said there is nothing that can be done is the is corporate suicide. Mazda should be put a lot of effort into finding out why there is such a large discrepancy between different RX's MPG instead of sticking their head in the sand.

Marketing is puzzling, I have seen 350z ad running the other day but have not seen a RX-8 for years. Do they just not want to put money into a car they have written off?

If you look at these three points do you really have to wonder why sales are sliding? I love the car but I wish Mazda did also.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 09:20 AM

I agree that the RX8 is Mazda's halo/flagship car. I agree that the RX8 get's lots of press and how respected this car is. But, Joe Q Citizen doesn't read automotive press and probably never heard of a rotary engine. Not everyone that buys a Mazda product even knows or cares about the RX8. I hope what you say about the RX8 being a vehicle that 'shows what Mazda can do' was a joke. If this is all that Mazda can do then Mazda is in trouble. I do hope that continued development is the plan for the RX8......because it is falling behind the competition IMO.

The renesis is an engineering marvel. Those who know cars know The rx8 is an advanced sportcar on todays market. It's certainly no joke. Mazda is going to use the rotary in future hightech models. Mazda is developing other sportcar models that use rotary hybrid, solar technology in a luxury package for adult shoppers. They will achieve good fuel economy in high horsepower luxury pkgs. The rotary has only scraped the tip of the ice berg. There will be other exciting rotary models to come. The rotary will continue to be used in high end mazda sportscars. Anything goes when you combine hybrid technology with the rotary. You are limited by your negative attitude towards a great car. The rotary will play a roll in future Mazda models and further boost sales. Search the web it's all there in concept cars.

rx8wannahave

03-02-2006, 09:28 AM

I love the car but I wish Mazda did also.

That's how I feel also...but I still really like Mazda and hope they have something up their sleave.

RotoRocket

03-02-2006, 09:46 AM

Want a full list?

Oh another thing I found interesting is that only 11.7% of Subaru's come with a turbo. HMMM.

Did anyone see the GARGANTUAN turbo lag that accompanies an STI when Jeremy Clarkston was racing a mundane Fiat from a 30mph start?

It was sad.

bascho

03-02-2006, 09:53 AM

The renesis is an engineering marvel. Those who know cars know The rx8 is an advanced sportcar on todays market. It's certainly no joke. Mazda is going to use the rotary in future hightech models. Mazda is developing other sportcar models that use rotary hybrid, solar technology in a luxury package for adult shoppers. They will achieve good fuel economy in high horsepower luxury pkgs. The rotary has only scraped the tip of the ice berg. There will be other exciting rotary models to come. The rotary will continue to be used in high end mazda sportscars. Anything goes when you combine hybrid technology with the rotary. You are limited by your negative attitude towards a great car. The rotary will play a roll in future Mazda models and further boost sales. Search the web it's all there in concept cars.

You could say that every engine design is an engineering marvel. That statement makes no sense. I do know cars and understand the RX8 was an advanced sports car......in 2004. Times are rapidly changing and the RX8 is not. The changes for 2006 are a joke. Where is the hands-free mobile capability? Where is the portible MP3 player interface capabilty? (and I'm not talking about buying Mazda's vehicle mounted MP3 player). Where is the one-touch control for both front door windows and moonroof? Where is the voice activated Navigation? Where is the dual zone auto temp control? Where is the 250hp that Mazda originally claimed the RX8 had? You would think that after a few years Mazda would want to make good on that original claim.

The rotary engine and the RX8 are not 'one in the same'. My comments about the future of the RX8 are based on Mazda's neglect in many areas of THIS CAR. I know that Mazda will continue to develop the rotary engine and continue to use it in it's flagship nameplates......but that does not necessarily have anything to do with the RX8. Mazda has been complacent with the RX8 and has yet to develop this car to match it's status as Mazda's halo/flagship car.

Tirminyl

03-02-2006, 09:54 AM

Did anyone see the GARGANTUAN turbo lag that accompanies an STI when Jeremy Clarkston was racing a mundane Fiat from a 30mph start?

It was sad.
What gear was he in?

nranly

03-02-2006, 09:55 AM

Did anyone see the GARGANTUAN turbo lag that accompanies an STI when Jeremy Clarkston was racing a mundane Fiat from a 30mph start?

It was sad.

It was an Evo.

ucfracerx8

03-02-2006, 09:57 AM

I think Mazda does love the 8, but they are having trouble deciding what path they want to take with it. Sure it has had some problems since it's debut here, but all of that has been put behind it. Sure gas mileage is not that great, but lately mine has been improving now that the car has more mileage, and I have not changed my driving style. It is time to face facts, Mazda does not make a lot of money on the 8, they probably cut back on the advertising to address the issues that cropped up. Even with its low torque, I have no problem keeping up with traffic and real grunt cars like GTO's and Mustangs. Mazda will continue the 8 and it will get better, just you wait and see. They have sold more 8's than they ever did for the last version of the FD.

:soapbox:

nycgps

03-02-2006, 10:07 AM

I think Mazda still love the 8, but right now they put full attention to sales.

Meaning they will put money into whatever that's selling well. and in this case, the 3 and 6.

They still care about the 8, thats why they put a new Exhaust for it. If they dont care about it anymore I dont think they will even bother.

BunnyGirl

03-02-2006, 10:10 AM

When I was talking to MNAO about special ordering the person on the phone was telling me they considered it more of a "niche" car and that they never expected huge sales out of it anyway. Their goal essentially was 1000-1500 a month in the US market and if they could meet or exceed that, it was great.

I kind of like that people have no idea what it is. :)

The only person I have encountered that actually knew what it was when I told them what kind of car I was getting, or at least didn't pretend they knew, was the insurange agent. She said her sister had one and loved it. Otherwise most people have no clue.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 10:20 AM

here, check out the future of Mazda the Senku is on the way.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=2006AutoShow

V_for_velocity

03-02-2006, 10:30 AM

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 10:31 AM

You could say that every engine design is an engineering marvel. That statement makes no sense. I do know cars and understand the RX8 was an advanced sports car......in 2004. Times are rapidly changing and the RX8 is not. The changes for 2006 are a joke. Where is the hands-free mobile capability? Where is the portible MP3 player interface capabilty? (and I'm not talking about buying Mazda's vehicle mounted MP3 player). Where is the one-touch control for both front door windows and moonroof? Where is the voice activated Navigation? Where is the dual zone auto temp control? Where is the 250hp that Mazda originally claimed the RX8 had? You would think that after a few years Mazda would want to make good on that original claim.

The rotary engine and the RX8 are not 'one in the same'. My comments about the future of the RX8 are based on Mazda's neglect in many areas of THIS CAR. I know that Mazda will continue to develop the rotary engine and continue to use it in it's flagship nameplates......but that does not necessarily have anything to do with the RX8. Mazda has been complacent with the RX8 and has yet to develop this car to match it's status as Mazda's halo/flagship car.

Do you want an afforable sportscar or an highpriced thourghbred? The Senko is comming.

bascho

03-02-2006, 10:35 AM

here, check out the future of Mazda the Senku is on the way.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=2006AutoShow

The Senku is FUGLY AS HELL!!! However, the Kabura has potential.

brillo

03-02-2006, 10:36 AM

Ok, a little reality check here everyone.

First off, the RX8 is making money for Mazda, they have said that since the begining and just recently in an interview. They aren't going to produce a car that doesn't turn a profit...period.

Second, The RX8 is more than a car, its a platform. The miata borrowed heavily from the RX8 R&D and design, this is good, because it spreads the costs over several cars. Look at the Nissan FM platform, they use it for everything, and Nissan is highly profitable....conicidence? The Kabura/RX3/RX7 will also be built on this platform, further extending its usefulness.

Third, Mazda was aiming for 30,000 US sales a year as their top goal. Obviously, they have come in a little short on that. Does that mean the car is a failure? Hell no, how many of us now would consider or have bought another Mazda? The RX8 is more than just a car, its a halo product that Mazda uses for all kinds of PR purposes.

So why the below goal sales? Gas mileage? Power? Nope.

Its the transmission. Most Americans don't drive stick, even sportscars. Look at the sales of the 350Z and G35 in terms of transmission. Hell, look at the Corvette and Miata sales too. People here even buy Porsche's with autos.

The 350Z/G35 is quite quick, even with a slushbox. The RX8 with the auto is not exactly exiciting. Honda has the same sales problem with the S2000, but they didn't even bother with the auto. I guarantee you mazda will have some form of DSG tranny for the next version to eliminate this issue. With the 6spd, the RX8 is quite peppy and hangs with its competition as far as acceleration.

I hope the 6spd auto will make up some ground for the car. I look forward to driving it and seeing the difference.

bascho

03-02-2006, 10:38 AM

Do you want an afforable sportscar or an highpriced thourghbred? The Senko is comming.

The amenities don't have to be standard. If I want to spend $40K loading up my RX8 with every creature comfort technology affords us....then I should be able to through 'options'. Not having the option to include this content in 'Mazda's Flagship Car' is suprising. You can get some of this content in Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Nissan's entry-level nameplates.

bascho

03-02-2006, 10:45 AM

Third, Mazda was aiming for 30,000 US sales a year as their top goal. Obviously, they have come in a little short on that. Does that mean the car is a failure? Hell no, how many of us now would consider or have bought another Mazda? The RX8 is more than just a car, its a halo product that Mazda uses for all kinds of PR purposes.

Mazda sold a little over 14,000 RX8's in 2005.....to me, selling 50% of your expected volume is a failure.

So why the below goal sales? Gas mileage? Power? Nope.

Its the transmission. Most Americans don't drive stick, even sportscars. Look at the sales of the 350Z and G35 in terms of transmission. Hell, look at the Corvette and Miata sales too. People here even buy Porsche's with autos.

Can't argue with you here.....it is very true. And that trend is effecting every auto companies future offering. Data is everything to large manufacturing companies. If the data says that a certain market doesn't buy manual transmissions.....guess what, no need to develop one. It sucks for those of us that prefer to do the gear shifting......right Japan8 ;)

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 10:46 AM

here's some text of future Mazdas http://media.ford.com/mazda/article_display.cfm?article_id=21807&make_id=227

bascho

03-02-2006, 10:48 AM

Quotes:
Where is the hands-free mobile capability? (It's a sports car. Besides, yakking while driving is bad for you.)
Where is the portible MP3 player interface capabilty? (It's a sports car. Listen to the engine)
Where is the one-touch control for both front door windows and moonroof? (It's a sports car, not an Escalade.)
Where is the voice activated Navigation? (It's a sports car, not an Escalade.)
Where is the dual zone auto temp control? (It's a sports car, not an Escalade.)
Where is the 250hp that Mazda originally claimed the RX8 had? (Now that's a good question.)

I know that many wouldn't pay for all of these features.....but some would. Why not make these features options? By the way, talking hands-free is a whole lot safer than holding the phone to your ear. You'll never be able to stop people from talking on their phones in the car......but you can make that impulse safer.

Dinhx8

03-02-2006, 10:52 AM

Where is the hands-free mobile capability? Where is the portible MP3 player interface capabilty? (and I'm not talking about buying Mazda's vehicle mounted MP3 player). Where is the one-touch control for both front door windows and moonroof? Where is the voice activated Navigation? Where is the dual zone auto temp control?

The rotary engine and the RX8 are not 'one in the same'. My comments about the future of the RX8 are based on Mazda's neglect in many areas of THIS CAR. I know that Mazda will continue to develop the rotary engine and continue to use it in it's flagship nameplates......but that does not necessarily have anything to do with the RX8. Mazda has been complacent with the RX8 and has yet to develop this car to match it's status as Mazda's halo/flagship car.

with all do respect, if you want all those features, buy a TL or a luxury car. This is a sports car with gran touring themes, but not a full blowl luxury car. I could care less if this has voice activated nav or bluetooth. I see what you're saying, and I would think its cool if it did have that- but im not losing sleep or angry about it.

Its the third year of production for the car. Hate to say it but none of us can really say whats ahead. Most top tier cars get significant changes in their 4th year, lately that trend has changed, but not enough for me to be giving up after the third year of production just began. some of the above features would also most likely increase the car's price, which I wouldn't want.

Take the TL for example, that car hasn't changed one bit in its 3 years. Would you say that its doomed? Granted it sells more, but thats because its a more 'everyday' car in a more popular class. (Sedan).

RotoRocket

03-02-2006, 10:56 AM

It was an Evo.

You are correct, sir. T'was, indeed, an EVO.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 10:59 AM

The amenities don't have to be standard. If I want to spend $40K loading up my RX8 with every creature comfort technology affords us....then I should be able to through 'options'. Not having the option to include this content in 'Mazda's Flagship Car' is suprising. You can get some of this content in Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Nissan's entry-level nameplates.

No, The rx8 competes with the 350Z and mostly the s2000. It's in it's league as far as amenities go and operating within Mazda's zoom zoom ideology. I don't think the rx8 will keep the flagship title for long. Mazda is building a whole new legacy of cars. The rx8 is early in that legacy. I think it will retain the halo car title of Mazda regardless of the upcomming luxury models.

bascho

03-02-2006, 11:05 AM

with all do respect, if you want all those features, buy a TL or a luxury car. This is a sports car with gran touring themes, but not a full blowl luxury car. I could care less if this has voice activated nav or bluetooth. I see what you're saying, and I would think its cool if it did have that- but im not losing sleep or angry about it.

Its the third year of production for the car. Hate to say it but none of us can really say whats ahead. Most top tier cars get significant changes in their 4th year, lately that trend has changed, but not enough for me to be giving up after the third year of production just began.

Take the TL for example, that car hasn't changed one bit in its 3 years. Would you say that its doomed? Granted it sells more, but thats because its a more 'everyday' car in a more popular class. (Sedan).

I agree that the RX8 car is a sports car......but it's also Mazda's flagship. They could offer a no-frills versions for sports car purists......and then build on that.

Remeber, Mazda already started putting in luxury car options.....they just didn't finish. They already offer navigation and Bose and heated leather and DSC and TPMS and satelite radio. They should have gone further in 2006 to match competitive offerings. Kia and Hyundai now offer more content in their vehicles then Mazda does with their FLAGSHIP CAR!!!......what does that say about Mazda? If Mazda does not do something drastic in 2007 with the RX8, Kia and Hyundai owners will start to look down their nose at Mazda......and those two companies are the bottom of the spectrum!!!!

Dinhx8

03-02-2006, 11:09 AM

I agree that the RX8 car is a sports car......but it's also Mazda's flagship. They could offer a no-frills versions for sports car purists......and then build on that.

Remeber, Mazda already started putting in luxury car options.....they just didn't finish. They already offer navigation and Bose and heated leather and DSC and TPMS and satelite radio. They should have gone further in 2006 to match competitive offerings. Kia and Hyundai now offer more content in their vehicles then Mazda does with their FLAGSHIP CAR!!!......what does that say about Mazda? If Mazda does not do something drastic in 2007 with the RX8, Kia and Hyundai owners will start to look down their nose at Mazda......and those two companies are the bottom of the spectrum!!!!

I hear ya, but i think part of it is being happy with whats there- I mean, everytime my brother (has an 04 s2000) sits in the 8, he always gawks at all the "luxury features". the s2000 is as bare as bare is in terms of amenties. But I don't frown on Honda. Cause the s2000 is a sweet ride and good performer.

The same in a way applies to our 8. Sure some other cheaper cars have more "features". But that doestn' make me question the 8 or think less of it, because its so much more than those features ever can make it, just like the s2000.

zoom44

03-02-2006, 11:17 AM

2003 Jul 1342

mine is one of those:D:

bascho

03-02-2006, 11:18 AM

I hear ya, but i think part of it is being happy with whats there- I mean, everytime my brother (has an 04 s2000) sits in the 8, he always gawks at all the "luxury features". the s2000 is as bare as bare is in terms of amenties. But I don't frown on Honda. Cause the s2000 is a sweet ride and good performer.

The same in a way applies to our 8. Sure some other cheaper cars have more "features". But that doestn' make me question the 8 or think less of it, because its so much more than those features ever can make it, just like the s2000.

But the S2000 is hardly Honda's flagship car. I guess my biggest complaint is that I have Mazda's most expensive car and it really only compares to other companies mid-level cars. I guess I have a higher opinion of Mazda and the RX8 then I should. I need to just think of it as a 'nice' sports car.

zoom44

03-02-2006, 11:20 AM

Does anyone have any info on how many 350zs have been sold in the US as comparison?

more than the amount of rx-8s made.

murix

03-02-2006, 11:21 AM

Based on that logic, the RX-8 is doing fine. High end flagship cars tend to be more for generating showroom traffic than for making large sales numbers. They also are a showcase of what can be done.

The NSX, Viper, etc are proof of that. Corvettes sell in the same numbers as the 8 and the Z is not really selling that much more either.

As long as Mazda is making money and has an image as a sporty company, the 8 is fine.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 11:26 AM

I hear ya, but i think part of it is being happy with whats there- I mean, everytime my brother (has an 04 s2000) sits in the 8, he always gawks at all the "luxury features". the s2000 is as bare as bare is in terms of amenties. But I don't frown on Honda. Cause the s2000 is a sweet ride and good performer.

The same in a way applies to our 8. Sure some other cheaper cars have more "features". But that doestn' make me question the 8 or think less of it, because its so much more than those features ever can make it, just like the s2000.

Yes, Gm offered extensive luxury features in their cars of the 80's. That was the only way they could compete with the spartan luxury imports that offered a much more competent car across the board. Hyundai and kia are doing the same thing.
They can offer all that junk at a more competetive price because their cars are not as good as the leading jap imports. True korean cars have come a long way but still trail jap cars in overall quality.

saturn

03-02-2006, 11:38 AM

Wow, so much I don't agree with in this thread.

In reference to the Evo vs. Fiat in top gear test -- this is a ridiculous test. If the top gear of the Evo is extremely tall to support really high speeds then this is totally acceptable and expected. Cars have different gears for a reason -- you downshift to get in the power band you need to give you the acceleration you want. People on an RX-8 forum of all places should know this well.

In reference to the lack of updates for 2006 -- the options you suggested aren't for sports cars and wouldn't further sales. People don't want one touch controls for their moonroof and windows. And integration with portable audio devices is impossible since there's no standard yet. We've seen how awesome the Pioneer and Alpine integration devices have been -- so slow they're useless. This feature will come in time and that time isn't right now. The only thing the RX-8 needs is more power. Everything else is spot on.

In reference to the low power of the automatic being the reason for the lack of sales -- that just makes no sense. Magazines that review this car don't talk about it being the best thing ever except for the AT. They say that the car is underpowered. People spending $30k on a "sports car" want more power, especially in America. Saying that the reason the 350Z/G35 is doing well because of its usable AT is baseless. Do you have any stats to back up the percentage of 8's sold that were AT vs. the percentage of 350Z's that were AT? If not, how can you make this claim?

captain mercury

03-02-2006, 11:38 AM

i think the rotary engine itself is more the flagship for mazda than the rx-8. the 8 just happens to be the current vessel.
we'll see

SoFL_RX8

03-02-2006, 11:41 AM

The 8 is one of the least advertised cars Ive ever encountered. I can recall seeing more seperate commercials for the Toyota Echo (HAHAHAHA) than all of the RX8 commercials Ive ever seen put together.
If Mazda wants to sell this car, they might start by informing the GENERAL PUBLIC (not R&T reading enthusiasts) of its very existance.
Half of the people I talk about my car with think I have an RX7 and im just confused when I call it an 8.
You wanna know what I think? I think MAZDA is trying to make up for their weak sales on the 8 by charging UNGODLY ammounts of money for MS parts. Why else would a spoiler cost $860? Or a B pillar with the MS logo for $140? If you ask me Mazda is desperatly trying to make up for sh**ty sales in the aftermarket, and its cruel and unfair to us tuners :P heh.

captain mercury

03-02-2006, 11:43 AM

Oh, all that and F**king G.W.Bush and gas prices dont help either!

George Bush? what does he have to do with it? :confused:

Design1stCode2nd

03-02-2006, 11:54 AM

I think the marketing for the 8 is very poor. At least 1 commercial a year should be made. I think I saw 2 in 03 but that was it. You can also get a base model for under 30k so cost isn't the issue. I have seen commercials lately for the 350z and the 8 is much more practical with the demi doors so it should sell higher than a less practical 2 seater.

The fact that the rotary provides lower gas mileage, requires some additional maintenance (not much granted but still additional) and has the possibility of flooding will forever keep it a niche car.

Average owners don't want to think about shutdown procedures if you are just moving it out of the garage they just want it to work. I'm sure this scares away some potential customers. Also average Americans want a huge surge or torque which the 8 doesn't give.

For the Evo and STi they are already niche vehicles with fairly low productions, at least the Evo (only about 5k in the us/year). I think a good marketing campaign bringing awareness of their superb performance for the $$ would go a long way to increasing sales of those two cars. Alot of people just don't know they exist. Read any auto magazine or web site and ask what is the best performance car for under 35k and it's always the Evo and STi. I didn't say best looking performance car. :)

SoFL_RX8

03-02-2006, 11:56 AM

MOD EDIT- NO POLITICS! zoom44

Dinhx8

03-02-2006, 12:00 PM

unless he can redisgn the rotary and make it not consume gas, it will always consume gas more than other cars, even if gas is 10 cents.

so , no, he doestn' have anythign to do with it.

saturn

03-02-2006, 12:09 PM

Also average Americans want a huge surge or torque which the 8 doesn't give.

I think if the 8 had a similar power curve to the 350Z (more low-end torque basically) I think it would really sell. It doesn't need to have a HUGE surge beyond that because the 8 doesn't have to (or can't) compete with Evo's and STi's. I think the main competetors of the 8 are the 350Z and S2000. With more torque, 4 seats, and demi doors I think the 8 starts to become the best option even with the gas mileage and other minor pitfalls.

saturn

03-02-2006, 12:11 PM

If anything here should have never started in the first place, it's you and your political comments. Read the rules, grouch. Get a job grouch!

SoFL_RX8

03-02-2006, 12:15 PM

mod edit- no politics. zoom44

rx8wannahave

03-02-2006, 12:17 PM

It sucks for those of us that prefer to do the gear shifting......right Japan8

Me too...if you force me into an automatic, you lost a customer. I don't know about DSG...but automatics don't float my boat that's for sure.

Raevik

03-02-2006, 12:18 PM

Jesus christ, shut up with the politics. Nobody cares. Stop talking.

Dinhx8

03-02-2006, 12:22 PM

read the rules buddy, and secondly, its all relative. if gas is a penny, youll still spend more pennines on the 8 so get over it.

ZoomZoomH

03-02-2006, 12:23 PM

Ibtl

SoFL_RX8

03-02-2006, 12:27 PM

Gas prices directly effect what kind of cars the public are interested in. This is the reason for the current trend towards Hybrids, and away from gas guzzlers.
Internation affairs directly effect gas prices.

Thats is all Im saying folks. Consider me "SHUT UP"

captain mercury

03-02-2006, 12:32 PM

Get a job grouch!
sweet!
get it together, grouch!

missinmahseven

03-02-2006, 12:33 PM

That's how I feel also...but I still really like Mazda and hope they have something up their sleave.

I think the fact we even HAVE the 8 is proof that Mazda dearly loves the rotary, and its rotary cars. They had to fight an uphill battle for years to get the 8 OKd by Ford.

From everything I've read over the years, yes... Mazda really loves the rotary, warts and all. It defines them as a car company.

nranly

03-02-2006, 12:47 PM

I think its better if Mazda advertises the RX8 in an automobile magazine rather than on TV.
1. They get an infinite amount of ad time (depending on how long the reader looks at the ad) and can say so much more on paper.
2. I would have to say that most people who are looking to buy a car in RX8's class would subscribe to an auto magazine.
3. The reader will find that most auto magazines love the RX8.

The point I am trying to make, is just because it's not on TV, doesn't mean it's not there.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 12:48 PM

I think the fact we even HAVE the 8 is proof that Mazda dearly loves the rotary, and its rotary cars. They had to fight an uphill battle for years to get the 8 OKd by Ford.

From everything I've read over the years, yes... Mazda really loves the rotary, warts and all. It defines them as a car company.

I totally agree, Ford is giving Mazda more and more slack to do their own thing. Were gonna see some remarkable versions of the rotary in future mazda platforms.

SoFL_RX8

03-02-2006, 12:50 PM

BTW telling me to get a job was baseless. You're sitting at a computer right now too, should I assume YOU dont have a job?
C'Mon now, that really wasn't necessary... and FYI, I have a damn good job, which is why I take offense to that.

Back to topic, I agree, the rotary engine is sort of Mazdas beloved bastard child. Im very happy to see the effort they made with the Renesis in order to keep the RX line rotary powered, but still competitive with todays market. You can def. tell by this alone that the 8 was a labor of love for Mazda. But if they do love the rotary so much, why dont they advertise it a bit more. I think the reason people are so afrade to own a rotary powerd car is because most people dont even know how a rotary differs from a Vblock. The problem seems to be the public is very little informed of the 8. The solution then? Inform them. Dont get me wrong, I love driving around for 3 hours and never seeing another 8 on the road, but I almost feel guilty, like not enough people are enjoying such a great car.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 12:52 PM

Krankor

03-02-2006, 12:54 PM

2. I would have to say that most people who are looking to buy a car in RX8's class would subscribe to an auto magazine.

I couldn't agree less.

It all depends on how you define its class. If you limit its class (and therefore its sales) to "car for sportscar enthousiasts", then you cater to a limited market, many of them of the "I only care about hp and stats" crowd, with which the 8 doesn't do particularly well. The key thing about the 8 is that it's not JUST a sports car, its more practical than that. I contend that there are people who don't go looking for a sports car because they have practical considerations, who might buy an 8 if they knew how well a car could do both. THOSE people don't read car magazines.

People like, oh, me, for instance.

SoFL_RX8

03-02-2006, 12:56 PM

Good point nranly... but this still makes the 8 very much an enthusiasts car. If we are talking about gross numbers, something needs to be done to reach the people outside of the R&T magazine world.
I do completely agree with the points you make though, and Ive never really relaized (even though is stupidly obvious) that paper ads essential have infinate ad time. Interesting observation.

SoFL_RX8

03-02-2006, 12:58 PM

I think the 8 really stands out as a "Family Mans Sports Car". That to me is its strongest possition of attack on the market.

LawFitz

03-02-2006, 01:02 PM

As an economist, I'll tell you that the declining sales reflect several factors including a natural sales reduction over the life cycle of a new car (especially one that was as initally exotic looking and niche oriented as the 8), and a bad rap about the stated power for the car vs the reality of the dyno tests.

But most important has been the dramatically higher current prices of fuel and even more dramatically increased fears about the possibility of future fuel prices combined with many reports of 8s getting 10-13 MPG and Mazda saying FU/deal with it to those poor owners.

You see folks, the cost of MPG is NOT LINEAR. As you get closer to 0 MPG, each mile per gallon lost is more expensive. This dynamic accelerates very rapidly below 20 MPG.

Here's a mathematical illustration: the cost difference between 60 and 30 MPG is the same as 30 MPG and 20 MPG and the same as 20/15 and 15/12 and 12/10. In other words the dollar cost difference per mile driven between 20 MPG and 60 MPG is the same as the cost difference between 15 MPG and 10 MPG.

Why is this? It is because when you are considering cost you should think about it in gallons per mile, rather than miles per gallon, since you are paying for gallons not miles. By flipping the fraction (taking the inverse), you'll see that the difference between 1/10 to 1/12 to 1/15 to 1/20 to 1/30 to 1/60 is exactly the same.

So what does this mean for the 8? Assuming gas at $3/gal (probably a conservative number given the new consensus fears about future prices over the last two years), each one of these break points represents $50 per 1000 miles driven or $5000 per 100K miles.

So if someone fears that the 8 will get 12 MPG instead of 15 or 20 it's a difference of $5000-10000 per 100K miles. And if some gets 10 MPG, add another $5K to that cost. Suddenly it makes sense that the cars are selling at such deep discounts to the original pricing for the car. These discounts would make up for the differences in expectations for fuel consumption costs since the actual MPG seems to be dramatically less than stated by the EPA and Mazda.

All of this assumes that gas will not rise dramatically above $3/gal. If so, and Mazda does not do something to reinstill confidence that the 8 can achieve 20 MPG consistently, you can expect valuations of all 8's, new and used to fall.

20-30 MPG seems to be the sweet spot. Below 20, costs accelerate very rapidly, above 30, they decelerate very slowly. What does that mean? Be wary of any car that gets below 15 MPG (like it or not the 8 has a bad rap for this) and don't pay up for a hybrid that gets 45 MPG instead of it's much cheaper equivalent that gets 35 MPG.

For the sake of the 8 and the rotary, I hope Mazda finds a way to address this issue before it's too late!

bascho

03-02-2006, 01:03 PM

captain mercury

03-02-2006, 01:07 PM

Dinhx8

03-02-2006, 01:13 PM

Magazine advertising is advertising......and Mazda doesn't do it for the RX8. I personally get Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Hotrod mags at home. I have yet to see an ad from Mazda for the RX8. I also get Maxim and Playboy and have never seen an RX8 ad in then either. Where is Mazda advertising the RX8?

id rather see boobies than an rx8 if i got playboy. :)

for the record, ive seen rx8 2 pages spreads in C and D before...usually in the early pages.

bascho

03-02-2006, 01:17 PM

id rather see boobies than an rx8 if i got playboy. :)

for the record, ive seen rx8 2 pages spreads in C and D before...usually in the early pages.

Boobies are nice.....but I actually enjoy the articles too.

When was the RX8 advertised in C&D? not recently that's for sure. I've only been a subscriber for about 13 months......so if Mazda advertised in C&D back in 2004 I wouldn't know. If you can, please provide the issue #......I'd like to check out what the ad looked like.

Dinhx8

03-02-2006, 01:17 PM

missinmahseven

03-02-2006, 01:18 PM

After reading this thread, I just wanna roll my eyes.

The 8 is a car for the 'particular' customer, not Joe Sixpack. Why? Try these factors:

1. Bold styling. Scares the types who like boring, invisible 'me-too' cars. Believe it or not, that's what the market wants... boring, me-too cars. Eye-poppers are an exception.

2. Rotary Engine. Scares people who are allready scared and ignorant about pistons.. let alone rotors.

3. Gas. This one's known since the mid-70's. No way around it, live with it.

4. Despite the four doors and four seats, it's a sports car. Most people don't want sports cars -- they want safe, cheap, reliable, BORING transportation.

This car will never sell high numbers. It's not meant to. It never was. It took 10 years for the Miata to hit 700,000 copies, and that's the best selling roadster *in history*. The corvette took about 15-20 years to hit 1 million cars.

Of course, none of this matters, because it seems people here think this car should sell 500,000 units per year... it'll never happen. Car's too different, strange, abnormal for that kinda sales.

So, to pay the bills and rake in huge profits, Mazda makes the 2, 3, 6, MPV and others. The 3 in particular is a hot item, it IS selling 200,000 units per year or better (worldwide.)

And lest ye all forget, the original SA/FB Rx-7 (1979-85) sold slowly as well. So did the FC, and of course we all know the FD was a dismal sales failure (and at 46,000 dollars BASE, no wonder...)

Dinhx8

03-02-2006, 01:19 PM

Boobies are nice.....but I actually enjoy the articles too.

When was the RX8 advertised in C&D? not recently that's for sure. I've only been a subscriber for about 13 months......so if Mazda advertised in C&D back in 2004 I wouldn't know. If you can, please provide the issue #......I'd like to check out what the ad looked like.

its a 2 page ad with all the doors open and the usual "a car like no other" type stuff....

i have subscribed for countless years, so i'll try to find it, but if you haven't seen it, probably late 04 early 2005 issue. Ive seen it since i've owned the car a few times and I bought mine summer 04.

bascho

03-02-2006, 01:22 PM

^ so what your saying is the Mazda can do no better in fuel economy of the rotary nor sales of their RX car than the 70's ??? Wow, no wonder they don't advertise!!!

"The new Mazda RX8.....the same damn car since the 70's"

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 01:22 PM

I think the 8 really stands out as a "Family Mans Sports Car". That to me is its strongest possition of attack on the market.

No, that would put it back into a niche car. Lot's of singles and non-family types drive them too, like me. I don't have kids.

bascho

03-02-2006, 01:25 PM

its a 2 page ad with all the doors open and the usual "a car like no other" type stuff....

i have subscribed for countless years, so i'll try to find it, but if you haven't seen it, probably late 04 early 2005 issue. Ive seen it since i've owned the car a few times and I bought mine summer 04.

I really want to see it now!!! I am going to go back through the issues that I have........I don't remember seeing an RX8 ad......but I may have over-looked it. I definitely haven't seen one since I got my 8 in Aug '05.

bascho

03-02-2006, 01:28 PM

No, that would put it back into a niche car. Lot's of singles and non-family types drive them too, like me. I don't have kids.

I have kids....but they're not allowd in the 8 :wiggle:

What?.....I have the Shinka.....I don't need them puttng their feet on the back of my Light Parchment leather seats. Let them do that in my wifes car :D:

LawFitz

03-02-2006, 01:28 PM

gas prices affect all cars though.
Even if prices fall, the 8 will still suffer from 'the fear of worse mileage' and "cost more to maintain".

I'd blame sales drops on a bunch of factors, many of which Zoom listed (new cars, factory burning, etc), and hp wars of course and it being niche car before i even thought about gas prices.

I too acknowledged that other factors are contributing to the sales decline.

But my point is that the 8 and all cars with sub-20 MPG (especially those w/sub 15 MPG) will suffer the most if fears of explosive gas costs continue. See SUV sales. This will make this car even more of a luxury item, applicable to those who are still willing to own the car at a higher cost.

And very few owners experience 20+ MPG on this car on a consistent basis from what I've read on this forum. Me personally, I get 15 city and 20 hwy. Too bad 80-100% of my driving is in the city.

Plus with such a wide reported variance, a normal economic buyer will consider the worst case and discount the car's value to reflect 15 MPG even if some are able to get 20 MPG. It doesn't help when consumer reports showed their road test at 13.8 MPG.

Exegeses

03-02-2006, 01:35 PM

Where is the hands-free mobile capability? (It's a sports car. Besides, yakking while driving is bad for you.)
Where is the portible MP3 player interface capabilty? (It's a sports car. Listen to the engine)
Where is the one-touch control for both front door windows and moonroof? (It's a sports car, not an Escalade.)
Where is the voice activated Navigation? (It's a sports car, not an Escalade.)
Where is the dual zone auto temp control? (It's a sports car, not an Escalade.)
Where is the 250hp that Mazda originally claimed the RX8 had? (Now that's a good question.)

Bascho.... I think you need to sell your 8 and get an Acura TL...

Also... As a doctor, studies have shown that the hand-free link does not decrease car accidents... (although it may increase the car's coolness factor)...

zoom44

03-02-2006, 01:35 PM

I think the 8 really stands out as a "Family Mans Sports Car". That to me is its strongest possition of attack on the market.

totally agree- just like the '65 stang. they should do more marketing in this direction.

nycgps

03-02-2006, 01:36 PM

I get over 20 no matter how I drive. ~24 if I'm all highway.

They addressed and fixed the 'problem'

Now I really would like to know how you "drive" and when you say "No matter how I drive" to you mean to driver below 2K rpm at all times ?

I really really would like to know.

saturn

03-02-2006, 01:38 PM

BTW telling me to get a job was baseless. You're sitting at a computer right now too, should I assume YOU dont have a job?
C'Mon now, that really wasn't necessary... and FYI, I have a damn good job, which is why I take offense to that.

Yeah, it was just a joke. Haha, what a great standup routine that was. Bully for you and your awesome job. My job is to sit around and look important and then post on the RX-8 forum when no one is looking. I'm getting pretty good at it.

I'll bet you 5 e-dollars that more SUVs and other various "gas guzzlers" were sold last year than hybrids -- by a factor of 10 probably. We're Americans. Sure we care about the cost of gas, but we mostly care about blaming everything on someone else. It's what we do. It's how we get out of bed in the morning -- sheer rage and discontentment. People hear a 10 second sound byte, believe it, and then will fight to the death to defend it. We never enter any discussion like we have something to learn -- only something to prove.

If you were right, everyone would buy Civics or hybrids. But people buy gigantic SUVs and don't give a crap about the environment or who they may kill while telling Sally in the backseat to keep her hands off her brother. People who are paying $30k on a car do not care about gas mileage (relatively speaking). They care about performance in all it's facets. Cost is an issue, but I think people are generally more concerned with maintenance costs than gas prices.

Everything I've read and heard from the media and random people I've talked to has lead me to believe that if the RX-8 had more power, it would sell better. This isn't 1994 and this isn't the RX-7. This is right smack in the middle of a horsepower war. Mazda may have bigger fish to fry than just selling a few thousand more units of a particular car, but I still think it's true.

BTW, hiiiiiiiiii biiiiiiiiird....got any smaaaack biiird? i need it!

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 01:40 PM

I too acknowledged that other factors are contributing to the sales decline.

But my point is that the 8 and all cars with sub-20 MPG (especially those w/sub 15 MPG) will suffer the most if fears of explosive gas costs continue. See SUV sales. This will make this car even more of a luxury item, applicable to those who are still willing to own the car at a higher cost.

And very few owners experience 20+ MPG on this car on a consistent basis from what I've read on this forum. Me personally, I get 15 city and 20 hwy. Too bad 80-100% of my driving is in the city.

Plus with such a wide reported variance, a normal economic buyer will consider the worst case and discount the car's value to reflect 15 MPG even if some are able to get 20 MPG. It doesn't help when consumer reports showed their road test at 13.8 MPG.

I would think gas mileage would be the last concern of buying a sportscar as much fun to drive as the 8. Most sportscar owners have other cars they use for excessive driving. Lot's of us store our 8's for the winter and only drive them on Sundays to church. My point is I drive my 8 less then my other more economical car. The 8 is for fun. I can always drive it less and my bike more if gas prices climb too high. It's not an issue with me.

nycgps

03-02-2006, 01:46 PM

8 is my daily car. Got it Last June and right now I have like 10700 miles on it (yep, just hit that number last night)

and Gas cost ... sigh. I dont really cared about it anymore. consider the fact that I have to fill it up every 2-3 days. Highest I've ever paid for gas was like a very nice $3.90 per gallon.

Now Im paying around 2.6 , all premium of course.

I just spent so much that I dont really give a crap about gas anymore. now what worries me is that how reliable it really is. I do my oil change every 2-3 K miles and clean my filters every 5K. I even changed my gear and rear diff oil at 5K .... so ...

Maybe its time for another Gear and Rear Diff oil flush .... :O

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 01:48 PM

If you were right, everyone would buy Civics or hybrids. But people buy gigantic SUVs and don't give a crap about the environment or who they may kill while telling Sally in the backseat to keep her hands off her brother. People who are paying $30k on a car do not care about gas mileage (relatively speaking). They care about performance in all it's facets. Cost is an issue, but I think people are generally more concerned with maintenance costs than gas prices<<<<<<<<

Consumer reports says the rx8 is the most economical to own in it's class.

<<<<<<<<<Everything I've read and heard from the media and random people I've talked to has lead me to believe that if the RX-8 had more power, it would sell better. This isn't 1994 and this isn't the RX-7. This is right smack in the middle of a horsepower war. Mazda may have bigger fish to fry than just selling a few thousand more units of a particular car, but I still think it's true.

BTW, hiiiiiiiiii biiiiiiiiird....got any smaaaack biiird? i need it!

I think you mean more torque is desired by most. I personally like the flat torque curve and high rev engine. It does it so well. Like a sportbike. The 8 also has a good ballance of power and drivability. I don't need whiplash everytime I step on it. It's a fine ride the way it is.

saturn

03-02-2006, 01:57 PM

I think you mean more torque is desired by most. I personally like the flat torque curve and high rev engine. It does it so well. Like a sportbike. The 8 also has a good ballance of power and drivability. I don't need whiplash everytime I step on it. It's a fine ride the way it is.

Yeah, I don't mean to bash the 8 or put words in everyone's mouth. I'm just saying that with more torque the car would have a broader range of appeal. Right now you see a few minor complaints (tires, flooding, gas mileage, rattling, etc) and one major complaint. If you fix all the minor complaints (not easy to do I'd say), I don't see it making a huge change in sales. You change the one major one, the minor problems will become even less important. It's got the looks and the moves. Now it just needs the get up and go.

I know that more torque is everyone's cup of tea, but I think it would appeal to the masses. Again, not saying this is a good or bad thing, just something I see that is true IMO.

lov2bugu

03-02-2006, 02:26 PM

i must say that what made me buy the 350z befor the rx8 was the z movie. i mean i remember it was a reguler day at the movie theater waiting for it to play. and then all of the sudden all what i read on the big screen is that " this video is made with no sound effects and the streets were closed" and all what i c is orange 350z flying through france for good five minutes. truely i was impressed :Eyecrazy:

one week later, i sold the wrx and got a 350z with the same color. mannnn i would never forget that video. but anyways now i have a rx8 and its wonder ful i love it ALOT. but you do need commercials, something that will make poepe know that it has an engine that is only found in future air planes.

djseto

03-02-2006, 02:57 PM

While the competitors have been getting small increases in HP over the years the RX-8 has been going down. Originally 250 then 238 no 232.

For the millionth time, the move from 238 to 232 is not a loss of HP. It was manufacturers moving to the SAE standard for how to calculate it. If you drive a 6sp right now, it has 232 not 238. A lot of other cars "lost" HP to this new standard. The 250 to 238 was an actual loss due to emissions restrictions

bascho

03-02-2006, 03:10 PM

Bascho.... I think you need to sell your 8 and get an Acura TL...

Also... As a doctor, studies have shown that the hand-free link does not decrease car accidents... (although it may increase the car's coolness factor)...

I hate Honda!!! and the 8 is nicer than a TL (my wife's friend has one and she always makes comments about how much nicer my Shinka is) The RL is waaay nicer than the 8.....but again, I would never own a Honda.

I don't hate the 8.....just the one I am leasing :) but that is because of all the problems I've had. I am not putting down the 8 as a car.....I am angry with Mazda for not doing more with the 8 in 2006. Besides, if you're a regular around here, you'll know that once my lease is up I am getting a Shelby GT500.

bascho

03-02-2006, 03:17 PM

For the millionth time, the move from 238 to 232 is not a loss of HP. It was manufacturers moving to the SAE standard for how to calculate it. If you drive a 6sp right now, it has 232 not 238. A lot of other cars "lost" HP to this new standard. The 250 to 238 was an actual loss due to emissions restrictions

Perception of lost power is what hurts sales. People are not concerned with the details....only headlines. Perception is a bitch.....just ask Ford, GM and DCX. Ford is considered a greedy American carmaker obsessed with only selling gas guzzling SUV's ..........HA!!! Toyota has just as many SUV nameplates....they just don't sell as well.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 03:35 PM

For the millionth time, the move from 238 to 232 is not a loss of HP. It was manufacturers moving to the SAE standard for how to calculate it. If you drive a 6sp right now, it has 232 not 238. A lot of other cars "lost" HP to this new standard. The 250 to 238 was an actual loss due to emissions restrictions

I was looking at the sticker on a 2006 S2000 and noticed the rated HP is now 237. I think it was 250 last year. It lost 13 hp just like that with the new SAE standard.

bascho

03-02-2006, 03:40 PM

I was looking at the sticker on a 2006 S2000 and noticed the rated HP is now 237. I think it was 250 last year. It lost 13 hp just like that with the new SAE standard.

That's because some Japanese automakers have been lying asshats trying to make it look like they make more hp then everyone else. You'll notice that many of the American brands saw hp improvements with the new system. The ZO6 went from 500 to 505 and the Shelby GT500 went from 450 to 475.

bascho

03-02-2006, 03:41 PM

The weird thing is that nobody really reported on the HP changes.

For one, Toyota with their old 3.0 in the Camry lost a TON of power. From like 220 down to 182 or something. That means they were overstating their power by about 30.

The Japanese automakers pay the press to keep that shit on the DL. Just like when Toyota/Honda have a recall......3rd page into the paper in small print. Ford has a recall and it's front page in BOLD PRINT.

Umbra

03-02-2006, 03:50 PM

Can't say that I agree with much said in this thread.

1. Gas milage. A few people that obviously have issues with their car complain that they are getting 12mpg and now the 8 has bad gas milage? I get around 22 on average with mine, it goes down a little if I flog the heck out of the car but not a lot. Besides people don't look much at mpg when they buy a sports car! I also think a significant portion of us in the north store the car a third of the year anyway. I mean who is dumb enough to buy a rear wheel car with summer tires and try to drive it in the snow? It takes on an extra $400-700 right away for tires if you do that and people are worried about gas milage? $400-$700 is a lot of tanks of gas.

2. Rotary Engine. Well this one is obvious. If your an enthusiast then it's a plus, otherwise it's a BIG BIG BIG negative. The average person would have to be foolish to buy a rotary over a piston engine. You have regular maintenance issues, repair cost issues, finding anyone who can actually repair it or knows anything about it, and on and on.

3. Looks. The 8 is definately a look at me car, almost as much as an STI and an EVO. Most people are not bold enough to buy it in the first place. It isn't girly cute car, it's not a bug, it's not a mini, it's not a PT Loser, it's aggressive.

4. Design/Sports Car Issues. The trunk is small, the back seats are small, the tires are expensive, the ride is harder, it doesn't seat 7, it doesn't sip gas, it doesn't yell out "PRACTICAL". Most people are scared to have fun driving, they consider it a stressful chore.

5. Mazda. Mazda as a brand isn't that impressive to begin with. When people talk relaible cars it's honda/toyota, when people talk inexpensive it hyundai and kia, when people talk muscle it's all american, when people talk rice it's honda, mitsu, nissan, toyota, when they talk luxury it lexas, cadallac, infiniti, BMW, when they talk sports cars it's porche, ferrari, aston, corvette, viper. All mazda has that is notable is the miata and the rotary and the rotary is generally considered a negative by most people and the solstace and sky are better looking than the plain jane miata.

6. Torque? Americans have to have more!! Yah right, how much torque does a honda civic or a toyota prius have? Not much and they sell great in america.

7. Auto tranny. If you buy an auto tranny you should be slapped and your license taken away unless your handicap.

What does that leave you with? A niche car by a small manufacturer that sells about 1000 units a month. I wouldn't be suprised if the 8 was killed next year, I wouldn't be suprised if it was had some styling refreshes done. It would be foolish to take it back into the factory FI domain. It's not a halo car, it's not a flagship car. It's a mid-level sport coupe who's history is one of engines with poor reliability mostly in moderately performing sports cars.

In summary it's a tech geek with kid's sports car. That's a niche car if there ever was one but it fits the niche perfectly.

As far as Shinka goes the kids are not allowed to wear shoes in the car or eat in the car or eat before going in the car or bring crayons in the car or markers or..... They will sit nice straight and proper or else they wont get any more rides where they can yell "go faster dad, almost hit the tree again dad, make mom sick again dad, can I see 100 again dad?..." ;)

Uh oh there goes my warantee... :icon_bs:

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 03:57 PM

daisuke

03-02-2006, 04:11 PM

you have to give it to mazda for sticking with the rotary engine, just because sales slump it doesn't mean that they're going to abandon it, most of their concepts feature a rotary in some form, and over 30 years after their first rotary car they still keep making them and perfecting the engine after everyone else gae up on it. That basically proves that they're not going to kill that line of cars just like that.

I see RX-8s at least once a day if not more, and the mazda dealer in my town doesn't have too much trouble selling them. I don't see them killing off the RX-8 because of lower sales, it's not like it's the third gen. RX-7 with it's reliability issues for the standard driver.

But I do think that the main reason it doesn't sell well is the engine, I mean I don't even know where I'd find someone who would know how to fix the engine. because any other way you look at it the RX-8 is an absolute deal: cheap, completely gorgeous and a lot more practical than most sports cars out there.

On another point, they're even selling the RX-8 in south america now (chile) where they never offered any of the RX-7s or any other rotary powered car for that matter, and people are buying them in equal numbers as the 350Z (Z cars have always been high selling in chile) even though there are probably ZERO mechanics that know how to fix them, so they'll depend on the dealer for all their services (bad idea)

I don't think we'll see the RX-8 die anytime soon, I just hope that that RX-9 concept never gets made because I'll have to hate mazda then... god it's hideous!

DrKillJoY

03-02-2006, 04:15 PM

Total RX-8s sold in the US as of Feb 28, 2006: > 52,044 <

This is kinda irrelevent (and might have laready been posted) but the 3rd generation RX-7 sold less than 14,000 units in the US. (13,989 more specifically).

Dinhx8

03-02-2006, 04:17 PM

I was looking at the sticker on a 2006 S2000 and noticed the rated HP is now 237. I think it was 250 last year. It lost 13 hp just like that with the new SAE standard.

242hp in 04.

sae is now 237.

ucfracerx8

03-02-2006, 04:21 PM

I blame the media for the gas price craze. Too many people are too easily influenced by what the media says on a daily basis to really think for themselves. Do our cars get great gas mileage, no, are they better than most of these SUV's out there, YES.

I think the main problem is the day of the enthusiast car buyer are so far in the past that just about everyone has forgotten them. Look at cars like the Camaro, Firebird, GTO, etc. Gone, gone, almost gone. The Mustang is around partly due to the fact that Ford spends huge amounts of money advertising it, and always has. The fact that rental fleets eat up the base 6's and verts doesn't hurt either.

Too many buyers have no passion, they just buy the mainstream Honda's, Acura's, and Toyota's. It is pretty sad when Toyota has probably the most bland line-up of vehicles (mainstream, whatever you want to call it) and they sell the most vehicles. SAD, just SAD. I for one choose the 8 because of its uniqueness, partly because I am an enthusiast and I think there are others on this forum that fall into that category as well. I wish I had the money to be like Leno and have a collection of all the cars I am passionate about. I would still have the 8 and I would still drive it a lot. It begs to be driven and I for one thank Mazda for having the cajones to build it.

Go48

03-02-2006, 04:43 PM

I guess your entitled to your lousy opinion. I disagree with alot of it. :boring:
Yup, just as you are entitled to your opinion. I happen to agree with most of what he said.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 06:02 PM

Yup, just as you are entitled to your opinion. I happen to agree with most of what he said.

So are you a tech geek with kids? who thinks the rx8 looks almost as good as sti(yeck,spit)? do you really think it will be killed next year? ha,ha, funny. And that Mazda has nothing on the board other than the rotary and miata? You obviously don't own a Mazda or are on some kind of drug medication interfering with your common sense.

Krankor

03-02-2006, 06:11 PM

id rather see boobies than an rx8
Ask and you shall receive!

:boobies: :boobies: :boobies:

BunnyGirl

03-02-2006, 06:22 PM

more than the amount of rx-8s made.

I think it is around twice as many.

stickman

03-02-2006, 06:34 PM

I had a 2004 rx8 which I loved but the air conditioning could not be made to run cool enough. Gas milieage was never better than 17 around town but that was okay for the fun I had. Finally, sold it (got tired of sweating in North Carolina summer) and bought 2005 TL. Great sedan, absolutely perfect, comfortable, quiet, fast, decent handling great gas mileage. One problem, it didn't make me want to drive. Tested a few new rx8's and see that air conditioning seems to have been fixed. Sold the TL and now have another rx8. Not smart financially but I can afford it and now I want to drive again. A car either does it for you or it doesn't; not much else matters.

BunnyGirl

03-02-2006, 06:47 PM

I get over 20 no matter how I drive. ~24 if I'm all highway.

They addressed and fixed the 'problem'

I think the problem with people "getting" really low MPG is the fact that they are stupid and haven't the slightest clue how to calculate it, as evidenced by the numerous threads on here about MPG and how they arrived at their numbers. I think that, more than anything is the problem. User error. Pure and simple STUPIDITY.

jisoo26

03-02-2006, 06:49 PM

BunnyGirl

03-02-2006, 06:50 PM

Boobies are nice.....but I actually enjoy the articles too.

When was the RX8 advertised in C&D? not recently that's for sure. I've only been a subscriber for about 13 months......so if Mazda advertised in C&D back in 2004 I wouldn't know. If you can, please provide the issue #......I'd like to check out what the ad looked like.

I thought you were a butt man. :)

Anyways, I saw three different adds for them in Automobile at my mom's dentist's office. I also saw some in a different car magazine than that at a different doctor's office.

Gee, maybe they only advertise them in medical professional's waiting room magazines. :)

BunnyGirl

03-02-2006, 06:54 PM

"The new Mazda RX8.....the same damn car since the 70's"[/I]

That might grab that "retro" market with all that nostalgia. :)

stickman

03-02-2006, 06:56 PM

Actually, you may be right about a lot of people not knowing how to calculate gas mileage, but I do. The early rx8's did have lower fuel economy. Of course it varied greatly depending upon how the car was driven. The good news is that on the new one I just bought my very first tank got 18mpg as compared to the first tank on my early 2004 which got 13 mpg. I fully expect to get into the 20's with this one as it breaks in.

RotoRocket

03-02-2006, 07:05 PM

Lowest mileage I've gotten in 268 on a tank. Best has been 308 miles. I'm averaging about 285 miles.

I could get an extra 100 miles with a Mazda 3, but I'd miss so much fun.

LawFitz

03-02-2006, 07:05 PM

I think the problem with people "getting" really low MPG is the fact that they are stupid and haven't the slightest clue how to calculate it, as evidenced by the numerous threads on here about MPG and how they arrived at their numbers. I think that, more than anything is the problem. User error. Pure and simple STUPIDITY.

Whatever, I know exactly how to calculate MPG and I get 14-15 in the city. I don't drive her hard, but not easy either.

Consumer reports and Autoweek's long-term tests of the car yielded 13.8 and 13 MPG. You think they don't know how to calculate it either?

Fact is that the 8 gets sh*tty gas mileage. You either live with it or not, but I'm tellin you for consumers who get 15 MPG, when they're expecting 20, they're paying an extra $5K per 100K miles. For those getting 12 MPG, they're paying an extra $10K and for the truly unlucky getting 10 MPG, they're paying an extra $15K. And if gas averages more than $3/gal over those 100K miles, then these numbers go up.

Now I don't know about you, but when I bot this car, I considered it a long-term keeper. I thought I'd put 200K miles on her and let her die on me in 10-15 years. I don't think I'll be doing that now. Not selling tomorrow, but I don't see keeping her past 50K miles.

Roaddemon

03-02-2006, 07:10 PM

zoom44

03-02-2006, 07:21 PM

why would they expect 20?

BunnyGirl

03-02-2006, 07:29 PM

Lowest mileage I've gotten in 268 on a tank. Best has been 308 miles. I'm averaging about 285 miles.

I could get an extra 100 miles with a Mazda 3, but I'd miss so much fun.

AAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!

We do MPG, not MPT!!!!! Number of miles driven divided by number of gallons purchased on fill-up. Not number per tank or number of miles driven divided by total gallon volume in tank!!!!! :wallbash:

Raptor2k

03-02-2006, 07:33 PM

You have driven the Bunny insane

Animals have feelings too, people

And wow: this thread just exploded, lemme catch up

Japan8

03-02-2006, 07:43 PM

Mazda sold a little over 14,000 RX8's in 2005.....to me, selling 50% of your expected volume is a failure.

I don't think he meant they expected to sell 100,000 cars. They probably expected to sell 70,000 cars. 100,000 cars was their "high" number... the most number of cars their thought they could feasibly sell, but not necessarily will sell.

Can't argue with you here.....it is very true. And that trend is effecting every auto companies future offering. Data is everything to large manufacturing companies. If the data says that a certain market doesn't buy manual transmissions.....guess what, no need to develop one. It sucks for those of us that prefer to do the gear shifting......right Japan8 ;)

No joke. I said it once and I'll keep saying until they get it. Years ago they offered the auto tranny as an option which cost more. Now that much of the market has taken to autos, why no just swap the situation... make manuals an option that costs more? The transmission is actually cheaper to make so they can make up R&D or whatever costs by charging extra for it. And those of us who want one will pay, because we absolutely won't drive automatics. Simple and should make the bean counters happy. So why haven't these idiots figured it out yet? :rant:

BunnyGirl

03-02-2006, 07:47 PM

Stupidity.

captain mercury

03-02-2006, 07:50 PM

BunnyGirl

03-02-2006, 07:59 PM

Well, since the majority posting on here in the last month or two keep saying "I get x miles per tank" it's a pretty safe bet to assume stupidity if they can't even calculate it out before complaining about the "rotten" mileage they get.

I do expect to get 20 or better considering whichever new job I take, it is country roads and then freeway, so I would have 95% highway driving the majority of the time.

The people I know well that have RX-8's get over 20. One has an 04 auto and averages 20. One has an 04 manual and gets 22-23. I am not particularly worried. If I get 18 or better I am meeting the estimated mileage and can't complain.

captain mercury

03-02-2006, 08:14 PM

well anyway, i'm pretty sure you noticed gas mileage is ALWAYS listed as a 'con' for the rx-8, which would make it a common problem for a lot of owners...not just the stupid ones.

don't get too arrogant before you get a few tanks under your belt.

i'm not trying to start a fight, i promise, but some of us get bad mileage even with a decent brain in our skulls.

Ike

03-02-2006, 08:15 PM

I'm going to laugh my ass off when Bunny is one of those people that get 15mpg or less no matter how they drive.

captain mercury

03-02-2006, 08:17 PM

I'm going to laugh my ass off when Bunny is one of those people that get 15mpg or less no matter how they drive.

me too... :yesnod:
but i wouldnt wish that on anyone.
:grouphug:

nranly

03-02-2006, 08:49 PM

Car and Driver- December 2003, June 2004, March 2005, June 2005, August 2005, September 2005 (Twice, no actual ad but still good press), etc.

And its kinda cool that none of the ads were the same in each of those issues.

Edit: oops, May 2005 has a repeat ad. :dunno:

swerver

03-02-2006, 08:59 PM

just my two cents. I checked via the internet at all the Mazda dealerships in my relatively local area. There are a grand total of three '05's left out there AND all three are the really ridiculous add-everything $34,000 ones..............

Exegeses

03-02-2006, 09:10 PM

Why does every thread turn into the same old mileage debate...

Some things will never changes...

Taxes...

Death...

RX8 Mileage Threads...

Anyway, mine is getting 19.5 MPG on mostly highway :wiggle:

Miker

03-02-2006, 09:24 PM

It's a halo car, albeit a halo car that sells at a seriously lower price point than halo cars like the NSX or Viper. Mazda is about to overtake Honda in Canada with the 3...which has a huge buzz now in the younger Civic demo. They'll let it disappear and come out with the FI version for the quarter mile crowd. And we'll have nice reminders of what marketing will do...I hope everybody locked in their residual lease values!

6speed8

03-02-2006, 09:58 PM

saturn

03-02-2006, 10:49 PM

This is what the RX-8 needs to have (IMO):

300 hp (Honest figure)
20 mpg city 28 mpg hwy (Honest figures)
one touch buttons (both windows and roof)
free spark plug replacement up to 100,000 miles

Options
Voice navigation
Blue tooth capability
iPod (or similar) hookup
Better stereo
More color choices
Power rear side windows

I'm with you on the hp. The gas mileage seems impossible, but would certainly be nice.

Everything else I just don't understand. No one looks at this car and says, I demand one touch buttons for my moonroof. It just doesn't matter that much. It's not a selling point in this kind of car. The spark plug thing isn't even worth acknowledging.

Your options are not things you find on $30k cars. Or sports cars at all. I just don't understand why anyone would expect these things to be something Mazda should bother offering. But, to each his own I suppose.

khtm

03-02-2006, 10:58 PM

SoFL_RX8

03-02-2006, 11:21 PM

I average 14-16 mpg if I drive and enjoy it. I get 15-18 if I watch myself and never really enjoy driving much. Guess how Ive decided to drive all the time?

Pay the extra coin for the fun, it part of owning the car... thats how I justify it. I sleep alright. :P

6speed8

03-03-2006, 12:23 AM

I'm with you on the hp. The gas mileage seems impossible, but would certainly be nice.

Everything else I just don't understand. No one looks at this car and says, I demand one touch buttons for my moonroof. It just doesn't matter that much. It's not a selling point in this kind of car. The spark plug thing isn't even worth acknowledging.

Your options are not things you find on $30k cars. Or sports cars at all. I just don't understand why anyone would expect these things to be something Mazda should bother offering. But, to each his own I suppose.

Plenty of cars under 30k Give one touch down/up - open/close buttons.
Most cars will go 100k miles without needing spark plugs (the RX-8 goes 37k).
The Bose stereo (which is the premium one) is kinda lame, less expensive cars come with much better ones.
It would be nice if we could open/close the rear side windows from the driver seat

These things are part of the reason WHY sales are slowing down. If the RX-8 sales do not meet expectations we can forget about any future RX-7 type resurrection.

BunnyGirl

03-03-2006, 12:43 AM

Yeah I've gotten as low as 13 mpg more than once...and if I calculated it wrong I guess I should go tear up my engineering degree.

I'm not saying EVERYONE is doing it wrong, but a lot of people are. It was obvious when they were explaining how they did it, or just refer to it in terms of tanks and how many miles they got out of the tank, like they drove it until it was bone dry and dead and then filled up again. People like that either have no idea how to calculate their mileage properly or are too lazy to actually figure it out and then complain that their mileage is terrible based on these abstract numbers they are guestimating in their head. A lot of people would "have" much better mileage if they actually calculated right, so it makes me wonder how many of these "terrible mileage" people are doing it wrong or if their numbers are legitimately that low, like the person who seems to consistently have somewhere around 9 MPG. That's just ridiculous. It is beyond me how it can be rated by Mazda to get 18-24 on average and the EPA says that reflects a true range of 15-28 and numerous people don't seem to get the bottom end and a majority on here are just over the very bottom end. If it was that widespread the numbers would have to be changed on the ratings or it is flat out fraud.

Ike

03-03-2006, 01:12 AM

It's no secret that EPA ratings are a joke.

Tirminyl

03-03-2006, 07:59 AM

How the hell did this turn into another mpg thread?

saturn

03-03-2006, 08:28 AM

Plenty of cars under 30k Give one touch down/up - open/close buttons.
Most cars will go 100k miles without needing spark plugs (the RX-8 goes 37k).
The Bose stereo (which is the premium one) is kinda lame, less expensive cars come with much better ones.
It would be nice if we could open/close the rear side windows from the driver seat

These things are part of the reason WHY sales are slowing down. If the RX-8 sales do not meet expectations we can forget about any future RX-7 type resurrection.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I have never heard of anyone mention anything about any of those issues in any magazine or anywhere else on this forum before. To me it's clear that the isues with sales involve power, gas mileage, and oil consumption. That and the lack of a helper monkey being included for free are the real problems.

khtm

03-03-2006, 08:31 AM

I'm not saying EVERYONE is doing it wrong, but a lot of people are. It was obvious when they were explaining how they did it, or just refer to it in terms of tanks and how many miles they got out of the tank, like they drove it until it was bone dry and dead and then filled up again. People like that either have no idea how to calculate their mileage properly or are too lazy to actually figure it out and then complain that their mileage is terrible based on these abstract numbers they are guestimating in their head. A lot of people would "have" much better mileage if they actually calculated right, so it makes me wonder how many of these "terrible mileage" people are doing it wrong or if their numbers are legitimately that low, like the person who seems to consistently have somewhere around 9 MPG. That's just ridiculous. It is beyond me how it can be rated by Mazda to get 18-24 on average and the EPA says that reflects a true range of 15-28 and numerous people don't seem to get the bottom end and a majority on here are just over the very bottom end. If it was that widespread the numbers would have to be changed on the ratings or it is flat out fraud.
Maybe there's other factors like:

- the Renesis sucks gas like crazy when idling (did Mazda idle at all while testing out the mileage ratings?)...moreso than any other car I've driven...I can't remember how many times the gas light has came on while I was warming her up.

- in cold weather does the rotary engine perform worse than a piston engine?

- does elevation affect a rotary engine more than a piston engine in terms of lack of power?

I dunno...just throwing it out there. It seems like too many people have had terrible gas mileage for it to be entirely blamed on them being idiots. There seems to be some pretty smart people on this forum, compared to lots of other forums, save for the young kids whose parents bought the car for them.

Raptor2k

03-03-2006, 09:03 AM

Raptor75

03-03-2006, 09:54 AM

Raptor75

03-03-2006, 10:02 AM

The RX-8 doesn't get shitty mileage. Yours does maybe.

Mine does fine, it's better than my FD, FCs and nearly matches my old VW Passat 1.8t

Look at all the threads on MPG it is the most talked about issue on this board. The RX-8 dose get poor gas mileage but the real problem is that some RXs get horrible gas mileage that Mazda can't not/will not fix. You are a lucky one, there are many others who are not.

Raptor75

03-03-2006, 10:06 AM

Roaddemon

03-03-2006, 10:13 AM

Sales trends for all cars(accept economy cars) are down right now. Sportscars are always hit the hardest when the economy slows down and gas prices are up. Just means we can get better deals on the cars we really want.

BunnyGirl

03-03-2006, 10:15 AM

Okay. :)

I think it's kind of funny. All the cars my family has purchased (we'll go back to my mom's 87 323 she bought in 88 since before that I have no clue about gas mileage; learned how to do it when she bought that car, I was 7) have exceeded the estimated MPG consistently usually by 2 MPG or more. This is why it seems so hard to believe that so many people get under Mazda's listed MPG of 18-24 and even the EPA range of 15-28, especially when they say "no matter how I drive it." Of course a lot of those people calculated wrong that were saying that.

ZoomZoomH

03-03-2006, 10:18 AM

RotoRocket

03-03-2006, 11:16 AM

Even though I've gotten a pretty consistent 18mpg in mixed driving, idling the 8 does burn gas faster than in a conventional motor.

I can't disagree with that observation.

rotary crazy

03-03-2006, 11:20 AM

I get 7-9 mpg in my rx-7 :rock:

LawFitz

03-03-2006, 11:47 AM

I get 7-9 mpg in my rx-7 :rock:

If you're serious that is ridiculous.

Remember those break points I was telling you about 10 MPG, 12, 15, 20, 30, 60?

Well the next one is 8.57 and the next one below that is 7.5 MPG.

That means that for every 1000 miles, at 7.5 MPG, you are paying $250 more in gas than a supposedly 20 MPG 8. Over a 100K mi, that's $25,000!!!

I hope you luv your 7.

rotary crazy

03-03-2006, 12:32 PM

the real cuestion is if a rx-8 can keep up with my 7, my 7 its now at 387 rwhp :naughty:

and I love the dam thing :naughty:

LawFitz

03-03-2006, 12:37 PM

my 7 its now at 387 rwhp :naughty:

Okay now I understand.

But getting back to the original point of this thread, when consumers expect to get 5-10 MPG less than Mazda claims, they will discount the car accordingly.

It's very logical and easily explains why new ones are discounted $5-8K from MSRP to clear the lots and why used ones have lost 30-35% of their original MSRP values in their first year.

The additional gas costs are offset by these large valuation discounts on what otherwise seems to be a very sweet car.

TALAN7

03-03-2006, 01:11 PM

Sales of the RX8 will continue to plumet. The Renesis, while gernering any awards for Mazda is hurting the sales of the RX8 in America. The low hp, total lack of torque, and terrible gas mileage all have helped hurt its image. There's a hp war going on and America is at the forefront, because while American cars have bad reps, one thing America car manufacturers can do well is big power. The reality is that the Renesis isn't practical. I doesn't make a whole lot of power and it makes hardly any torque. Truth be told, t should probably have a gas guzzler tax with the mileage it's geting. It's still a great car though.

Roaddemon

03-03-2006, 01:35 PM

Has anyone done a comparo to other sportscars in this class? Is the 2006 rx8 really doing any worse than them, percentage wise , to last years sales?

zoom44

03-03-2006, 01:51 PM

It would be nice if we could open/close the rear side windows from the driver seat

i can reach both.

LawFitz

03-03-2006, 01:53 PM

Truth be told, t should probably have a gas guzzler tax with the mileage it's geting. It's still a great car though.

I noticed the other day that the 15 MPG Audi S4 gets hit with a $1700 gas guzzler tax. So we're not far off.

Of course that car also has 340 HP. Well at least sticker HP. Don't know about dyno'd whp.

Ericok

03-03-2006, 02:17 PM

Why is mileage such an issue? The following is a list of EPA numbers: RX8 18/24 (238 hp), EVO 20/31 (300hp), Mustang V8 17/25 (300hp), Mustang V6 19/28 (210 hp), 350Z 19/25 (300hp), Porsche Boxster Stick 20/29 (217hp), Porsche Boxster Auto 18/26 (217hp). So the RX8 numbers are in the ballpark with the others. Even the HP numbers beat out the Porsche (MSRP $45,000) and Mustang V6.

stickman

03-03-2006, 07:35 PM

Sorry guys, I think you can blame me for this becoming a mpg thread. All I did was say I sold my 04 rx8 because of weak air conditioning that couldn't be corrected. I got a TL which is a great car but not as much fun and now just got another rx8. I also mentioned I got 18mpg on my first tank in my 05 rx8 compared to around 13 or so in my 04 first tank.
In any event, mileage will vary to some degree between different cars, these things are machines and are not 100% identical. Some engines run a little better than others. The way it is driven will have the most to do with mpg. As far as I'm concerned, anything 18 and over is great for me with a car of this type. I didn't buy it for economy.

VashCloud

03-03-2006, 08:47 PM

Dear Richard,

Thanks for contacting Mazda.

I assure you, Richard, we have NO PLANS announced regarding the
possibility of discontinuing the RX-8 nor rotary engine use. For
example, we will be releasing the 2006 RX-8 in the coming months and
continuing to sell and market them appropriately.

Thanks for the encouraging enthusiasm that you and many other rotary
fans continue to express. We have no expectation that you'll be let
down.

Again, thank you for contacting Mazda. It has been my pleasure to
reply. Please take a moment to give us your opinion about our e-mail
service. Click or paste the link below to complete a brief, online
survey.

http://www.zoomerang.com/survey.zgi?p=WEB2248YQG39VE

Regards,

William Z.
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business

I WROTE MAZDA, SO DONT WORRY GUYS THE RX-8 IS HERE TO STAY!

Ike

03-03-2006, 08:53 PM

I WROTE MAZDA, SO DONT WORRY GUYS THE RX-8 IS HERE TO STAY!

Yeah, because if Mazda was considering discontunuing the RX-8 I'm sure you and William would be the first to know.

bascho

03-04-2006, 06:50 AM

I thought you were a butt man. :)

Oh....I AM. But Playboy is really weak on nice ass shots.....I really do get it for the articles and interviews. Plus.....man cannot live on ass alone :D:

bascho

03-04-2006, 06:59 AM

One of the problems is several long term tests of the RX-8 resulted in the testers complaining of poor MPG and having to ADD oil. That scares the average car buyer.

Another issue is the actual HP. HP numbers help sell sports cars. 232 hp not only seems LOW, but it is a terrible number. 232 hp to push 3000 lbs!

The recalls haven't helped either.

This is what the RX-8 needs to have (IMO):

300 hp (Honest figure)
20 mpg city 28 mpg hwy (Honest figures)
one touch buttons (both windows and roof)
free spark plug replacement up to 100,000 miles

Options
Voice navigation
Blue tooth capability
iPod (or similar) hookup
Better stereo
More color choices
Power rear side windows

I agree 100% with everything you listed. I know some here have disagreed with offering this content on a $30K sports car......but it doesn't have to be standard equipment.....just optional. Those who want to pay the premium can and those who do not don't have to. If you don't intend on paying for the added content....why are some of you so against offering it at all. And by the way, plenty of $30K cars offer 1-touch controls for windows, blue tooth wireless capabilites, iPod connectivity, etc.

bascho

03-04-2006, 07:02 AM

i can reach both.

go go gadget arms :D:

Spin9k

03-04-2006, 07:21 AM

Sales of the RX8 will continue to plumet. The .... total lack of torque, ..... and it makes hardly any torque. .... It's still a great car though.Sheeeze TALAN7! Get your story straight.... 1st it has NO torque, then just a little.... make up you mind!

I think you should settle on "hardly any torque", otherwise it wouldn't even be a car, but more like an "Automotive Statue" lol, cause it would just sit there :rolleyes: !

StewC625

03-04-2006, 08:20 AM

Personally, I think this is going to be the death of our resale value, especially if Mazda kills the car after a 3 or 4 year run over flagging sales.

Thank God mine's a lease!

bascho

03-04-2006, 08:58 AM

I'm sure the RX8 will be around a few more years......but it will look like the Senku. Mazda is not going to have both available in the market....so if you wanna see what the next 8 will look like, take a gander at the Senku.

saturn

03-04-2006, 12:08 PM

I agree 100% with everything you listed. I know some here have disagreed with offering this content on a $30K sports car......but it doesn't have to be standard equipment.....just optional. Those who want to pay the premium can and those who do not don't have to. If you don't intend on paying for the added content....why are some of you so against offering it at all. And by the way, plenty of $30K cars offer 1-touch controls for windows, blue tooth wireless capabilites, iPod connectivity, etc.

Could you inform me of one sports car that does offer these things? I'm not saying there aren't -- I just want to know. I don't know of any car that offers iPod connectivity other than like the crap BMW gives which isn't good (it's the same thing as the iceLink). Even the aftermarket products (Alpine, Pioneer, Clarion) are all terrible because they are so slow. I've never heard of a sports car with blue tooth wireless -- only Mercedes and maybe Acura.

I don't think the point was to never offer these. But he said that if Mazda did that it would change sales dramatically. I mean, these are such arbitrary options. Why not have electrochromatic glass in the rear view mirror. Or maybe climate controlled glove compartments. Sure, it's all nice. But it's not going to solve the problems because no one is complaining about the lack of options on this car.

bascho

03-04-2006, 12:23 PM

Could you inform me of one sports car that does offer these things? I'm not saying there aren't -- I just want to know. I don't know of any car that offers iPod connectivity other than like the crap BMW gives which isn't good (it's the same thing as the iceLink). Even the aftermarket products (Alpine, Pioneer, Clarion) are all terrible because they are so slow. I've never heard of a sports car with blue tooth wireless -- only Mercedes and maybe Acura.

I don't think the point was to never offer these. But he said that if Mazda did that it would change sales dramatically. I mean, these are such arbitrary options. Why not have electrochromatic glass in the rear view mirror. Or maybe climate controlled glove compartments. Sure, it's all nice. But it's not going to solve the problems because no one is complaining about the lack of options on this car.

I am not bashing on the RX8's content for the 2004/5 model years.....I'm talking about the 2006 RX8 which is just now hitting the market a mere 3 months before the rest of the world unveils their 2007 line-up. I am not going to check out every car for 2007, but I can tell you that every Ford, Mercury and Lincoln is going to have iPod connectivity for the 2007 model year. Also, Ford has offered blue tooth hands-free mobility for two years now on almost all their nameplates.

BTW, the RX8 already has electrochromatic glass in the rear view mirror. I was not stating that people are complaining about contect either.....I am merely pointing out that other companies are offering a lot more tech savvy content for their 2007's which happen to be competing against Mazda's 2006.

And the RX8 is not Mazda's sports car in my mind, the MX5 is. I would classify the RX8 as a entry-level Grand Touring car. I would never advise Mazda to add a bunch of content to the MX5......because that is a 'sports car'. When Mazda added those rear doors they made this car something more.......and thus it should be trying to match 'optional' content to the likes of Acura and Infinity.

RichardK

03-04-2006, 12:41 PM

Sheeeze TALAN7! Get your story straight.... 1st it has NO torque, then just a little.... make up you mind!

I think you should settle on "hardly any torque", otherwise it wouldn't even be a car, but more like an "Automotive Statue" lol, cause it would just sit there :rolleyes: !

And it's all relative anyway. Compared to the cars I could have instead of the RX8, for the money, the car has better torque, lower weight and more power.

Things are different in the US, but people really need to stop using absolutes.

saturn

03-04-2006, 12:45 PM

And the RX8 is not Mazda's sports car in my mind, the MX5 is. I would classify the RX8 as a entry-level Grand Touring car. I would never advise Mazda to add a bunch of content to the MX5......because that is a 'sports car'. When Mazda added those rear doors they made this car something more.......and thus it should be trying to match 'optional' content to the likes of Acura and Infinity.

That's fine. But I think they need to give people what they're asking for. People who are looking at the RX-8 seem to also be looking at the 350Z, S2K, Evo, STi, GTI and probably a few others. That's a pretty wide range of car types. The RX-8 only needs to compete with cars that people stack up against it.

I definitely think the iPod thing is going to become big soon, but all these car brands you are talking about aren't getting this awesome new interface. They're basically getting a factory built iceLink so that people can control it through their steering wheel control. Some Mazda dealers actually offer the iceLink as an option you can buy and have installed.

I just don't see the major criticism of the 8 being appointment options. Not even close.

RichardK

03-04-2006, 01:15 PM

BTW, the RX8 already has electrochromatic glass in the rear view mirror.

Mine doesn't. It's got a flicky 'dip' lever like my old Chevette had ;)

bascho

03-04-2006, 01:19 PM

I just don't see the major criticism of the 8 being appointment options. Not even close.

I agree with that. Mostly because the gas mileage, hp rating and flooding issues are very BIG problems and that is what gets attention.

Listen, if you are happy with your 8 and think that it never has to change....that's great. I'm sure you'll be happy to be one of the 10,000 people in the US that will buy a 2006 RX8. Lots of optional content is not for everybody......my grand mother doesn't need blue tooth either. I guess Mazda can market the car to you and my grand ma :D:

bascho

03-04-2006, 01:20 PM

Mine doesn't. It's got a flicky 'dip' lever like my old Chevette had ;)

Oh, I thought the electrochromatic was standard. No biggie, it was still an option for the RX8.

RichardK

03-04-2006, 01:37 PM

Oh, I thought the electrochromatic was standard. No biggie, it was still an option for the RX8.

If I find one, I will fit it. One of the most useful things I've ever had in a modern car, aside from the rain-sensing wipers in my Beetle.

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 01:47 PM

Grand touring package has that feature, I know.

Raptor75

03-04-2006, 01:52 PM

6speed8

03-04-2006, 01:55 PM

It's possible sales are down and might continue that way because the RX-8 has reached a saturation point. We who bought one are a different breed of car owner. We don't mind checking the oil fairly regularly, or starting the car up to move it and taking it for a spin, or sit there till it warms up. Believe it or not, the majority of people find those things to be a hassle, and alot of those people are looking for more bells and whistles than we are content to live with.

The RX-8 needs to appeal to a broader base and in some respects it already does. The S2000 does not come with and automatic transmission or a navigation system. That car is designed for a SELECT group of people. The RX-8 has amenities that appeal to a wider mass than the S2000, but I think with a few more OPTIONS, it could appeal to an even greater audience, and improve its sales.

Krankor

03-04-2006, 02:03 PM

Things are different in the US, but people really need to stop using absolutes.
That was an absolute.

IndeRotor

03-04-2006, 02:09 PM

I'd have to tottaly disagree, in 91 Mazda proved a rotary is far superior to a piston engine. And then they were banned from the lemans. I do agree that if it dies so be it, I now have a nice car that will hold it's value. But I also agree that most everyone I talk to would love to own an rx-8 but can afford it. I think they should start putting the rotary in other vehicles and improve the performance of the rx series. Something is coming for the rotary, Mazda dumped alot of money into the hydrogen rx8. I think we have way more coming but it's not time yet.

Roaddemon

03-04-2006, 02:15 PM

The difference is the level that the RX misses the EPA estimates far worse then the other cars you mentioned.

It does'nt really miss it. I just got 20mpg, with10% ethanol regular gas, mixed 40% city and 60% highway. I admit cold winter starts and stops, not warming the car up can drop it to 12mpg. Also speeding and reaching high rpm often. Your talking worse case scenarios. It's true of all cars.

Roaddemon

03-04-2006, 02:31 PM

saturn

03-04-2006, 02:46 PM

I agree with that. Mostly because the gas mileage, hp rating and flooding issues are very BIG problems and that is what gets attention.

Listen, if you are happy with your 8 and think that it never has to change....that's great. I'm sure you'll be happy to be one of the 10,000 people in the US that will buy a 2006 RX8. Lots of optional content is not for everybody......my grand mother doesn't need blue tooth either. I guess Mazda can market the car to you and my grand ma :D:

I don't even own an 8 so don't listen to anything I say anyways. Having every option imaginable probably wouldn't hurt anything, but that's not the point. When you're Mazda you have to decide where to spend your money and time. If I thought the car was perfect I'd say bring on the options. But you have to pick your battles.

I would LOVE to see bluetooth capability. You could have your iPod using this (with an adapter) and your cell phone. I also love the new keyless entry and start system on the 2006's (very few cars have these right now). I'm not opposed to options. I would just like to see Mazda continue to concentrate on the more important issues.

BTW, you think you can hook me up with your grandma?

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 02:51 PM

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 02:54 PM

That's so right, They also have a electric hybrid solar rotary that will rival the hybrid accord in HP and fuel economy. It will be comming in upscale sport models. I hope it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to buy.

I would love to have solar power on my car. My ex had high-efficiency solar panels on his 3200 square foot house and they did a wonderful job, even while heating in the Midwest winters. I think that would be great if they could put something like that on a car and have it perform at a high level.

saturn

03-04-2006, 02:56 PM

don't get me started on mileage calculations again

I think I have to fill up every 6-7 days on average. Am I getting good mileage?

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 02:57 PM

Depends on how far and how often you drive. :)

Roaddemon

03-04-2006, 03:10 PM

Talking about mileage, I noticed my 8 takes 2-3 times longer to warm up than my Mazda 626 in winter. I drive the 8 short distances so it never warms up. Now that's gotta hurt gas mileage. It's not the best car for cold climates but works for me. The upside is I get 2-3 weeks/tank because I drive it much less in the winter. I keep it in winter semi- storage with snow tires on just in case.

Roaddemon

03-04-2006, 03:52 PM

Here is the 2006 consumers report on the 2005 rx8 reliability rating. Notice everything is best rating including fuel. YAHOOO,VICTORY.

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 03:59 PM

I had noticed that, too, when I was looking at that particular issue. Perhaps it is people with 04 models mainly that have issues, as with all the other categories?

Roaddemon

03-04-2006, 04:06 PM

I have and early model o4. All the issues were taken care of at the dealer by recalls or TSBs. I now have a 2004 that is as complete as a 2005. It was all covered under warranty. I'm happy.

Ericok

03-04-2006, 05:18 PM

The difference is the level that the RX misses the EPA estimates far worse then the other cars you mentioned.
(Commenting about my claim that the RX8 gas mileage is no worse than a lot of other sporty cars in its class) You can drive any car under the EPA estimates. RX-8 drivers push the car because its so easy to do and pay the price in gas mileage. If you visit the HUMMER forums, a big complaint is: mileage ("JD Power stated the #1 complaint of Hummer owners was bad gas mileage") Go figure. Here's a quote from the 350Z forum "Unfortunately, our heavy right foot and long stints in L.A. gridlock resulted in a pathetic 15.4 mpg over 9,300 miles. A quick check of forums shows that this is a common complaint among G35 owners." How about this from the Mustang (2004) forum "Cons: Gas mileage, and very small back seats". How about the EVO: "Cons: bad gas mileage, questionable tranny, cheap interior, rust on door panels". The only drivers that were happy about fuel consumption were Porsche Boxster owners but that engine puts out less HP than the RX-8.

Ike

03-04-2006, 05:38 PM

<shrugs> I drive my car hard and go wot several times a day, have nearly 300whp, drive in alot of stop and go as well as city driving. I've gotten 20-24 mpg per tank my last 5 fill ups.

Sapphonica

03-04-2006, 05:43 PM

I don't think it misses the mileage so much like people claim (don't get me started on mileage calculations again), especially since my paper on my 2006 says my fuel economy rated by Mazda is 18-24 which means there is an EPA-rated range of 15-28. Technically anything 15 and higher is meeting fuel economy.

Corvette Z06:

16-26 mpg
505 HP
470 ft lbs torque
1/4 mi: 12.4 seconds

Mazda RX8:

18-24 mpg
238 HP (as if!)
159 ft lbs torque (if that)
1/4 mi: high 14s if you're lucky

No, we don't need a car in the 12s, but if my car is going to get crummy gas mileage, it should at least be running low 13s.

The RX8 is so not going to be produced anymore after a couple more years of bad sales.

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 05:47 PM

So what exactly are you trying to say in regards to my first post? :dunno:

I mentioned likely not missing the MPG as much as people say because of the actual range.

You instead tell me about HP and MPG ratings for another car compared to the RX-8.

Sorry. No correlation. Nothing to do with meeting/not meeting fuel economy range.

Roaddemon

03-04-2006, 05:51 PM

corvette Z06

$80000

rx8

$25000

Which one is most affordable? Which one has lower monthly payments? How many other cars in the same price range and class as the rx8 get the same mileage as the vette? These are questions you can answer.

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 05:55 PM

If we want to go there, my friend's Ferrari gets 16 on average. We could buy eight RX-8s for what that car cost!!! Darn. I guess they're going to discontinue the RX-8 because Ferrari is doing so well with it's MPG and more power output!!! :rofl:

RX8_GT

03-04-2006, 05:56 PM

Corvette Z06:

16-26 mpg
505 HP
470 ft lbs torque
1/4 mi: 12.4 seconds

Mazda RX8:

18-24 mpg
238 HP (as if!)
159 ft lbs torque (if that)
1/4 mi: high 14s if you're lucky

No, we don't need a car in the 12s, but if my car is going to get crummy gas mileage, it should at least be running low 13s.

The RX8 is so not going to be produced anymore after a couple more years of bad sales.

Comparing a Z06 and Rx-8 is just not on unless you compare price. I would like to see Z06 real world mpg.

If you want low 13s - get it third party turbo'ed ---- for a lot less than the difference in price of the Z06.

PS The Z06 is a great deal for a super-car class car IMHO.

RotoRocket

03-04-2006, 06:26 PM

(Commenting about my claim that the RX8 gas mileage is no worse than a lot of other sporty cars in its class) You can drive any car under the EPA estimates. RX-8 drivers push the car because its so easy to do and pay the price in gas mileage. If you visit the HUMMER forums, a big complaint is: mileage ("JD Power stated the #1 complaint of Hummer owners was bad gas mileage") Go figure. Here's a quote from the 350Z forum "Unfortunately, our heavy right foot and long stints in L.A. gridlock resulted in a pathetic 15.4 mpg over 9,300 miles. A quick check of forums shows that this is a common complaint among G35 owners." How about this from the Mustang (2004) forum "Cons: Gas mileage, and very small back seats". How about the EVO: "Cons: bad gas mileage, questionable tranny, cheap interior, rust on door panels". The only drivers that were happy about fuel consumption were Porsche Boxster owners but that engine puts out less HP than the RX-8.

Exactly!

Hell, they complain about gas mileage in the Hyundai Sonata forums, and I've even seen a complaint or two in the...gasp!...Mazda 3 forums!

sti_eric

03-04-2006, 06:43 PM

Comparing a Z06 and Rx-8 is just not on unless you compare price. I would like to see Z06 real world mpg.

If you want low 13s - get it third party turbo'ed ---- for a lot less than the difference in price of the Z06.

PS The Z06 is a great deal for a super-car class car IMHO.

Jeez people, the point of his post is that a 7.0L 505hp engine gets better gas mileage than the 1.3L in the RX-8. He is not comparing a corvette to an RX-8. Generally speaking, the bigger an engine, the more powerful it is and the more gas it uses. The rotary drinks gas like a big V8 but doesn't give you the same performance.

My 340whp STi gets better average gas mileage than we get out of the RX-8 on the highway.

SayNoToPistons

03-04-2006, 06:54 PM

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 07:07 PM

I don't know the actual price they start at base but at the auto show they had one regular and one convertible. One cost $75K and one was around $81K. Not sure which was which and I don't know what kind of options they had either. I didn't pay that much attention since I don't particularly care for corvettes and never have.

BunnyGirl

03-04-2006, 07:10 PM

My RX-8 is loaded to the hilt with the exception of essentially the cassette player, anything "cargo" related, door edgeguards, moonroof wind deflector (ugly).

Mine has an MSRP of low $36K. If I get rid of all the options base price is $26,995 including destination charges on an 06 manual. Base price for an 06 auto is now the same as the manual.

Roaddemon

03-04-2006, 07:20 PM

The rx8 gets about the same average gas mileage as a large v6 or small v8. if the big vette engine is unique in it's mpg/hp good for it. Let's see it carry 4 people around the track, or wife and 2 kids on vacation. for a big powerful sports car it sure falls short of the simplist of tasks. What do you get for $80k? 2 less seats 500hp and a gas gussler if you drive it the way it was meant to be driven. :cwm27:

rotarygod

03-04-2006, 07:28 PM

Time for another long RG rant.

I typically average 14-15 in my RX-7 but have gotten as low as 11mpg because I push that car alot. It's a play car anyways. It is quite easily capable of much higher and I've gotten over 20 city and 29 mpg highway before in it just driving normally. That's not as much fun though. My little Civic is rated at 28/32. I drive it very conservatively and average 34/37. That's way above the rated average and the only reason I keep that car. My parents have a little Civic as a daily driver and they do get the 28 average in the city but they have different driving habits than I do. I've found that different shift points and how I decelerate can affect mileage noticably.

If you want to compare engines with efficiency, do it properly. To say that "my 340whp gets better..."yada yada yada is inaccurate. It's not displacement that counts. It's efficiency at a certain power level. Let's just use freeway cruising as an example. Let say that the RX-8 needs to make 40 hp to hold it at 60 mph. I'm making that number up but it isn't that inaccurate. Hell, lets just say that a Corvette and a WRX also both need to make 40 hp to hold that speed. That'll keep things quite simple. None of the engines is making any more power than this if that speed is being maintained. Suddenly how large the engine is and how much power it can ultimately make are irrelevant. I assure you if each engine were making it's full rated power, the one making the most would use fuel the fastest. Lets get back on track though. It's known that the Renesis makes about 8 hp per each pound of air used in a 1 minute time frame. A good piston engine makes about 10 hp per lb of air used over a minute. We can already see that the rotary is less efficient based on this alone. That is a side effect of it's "long" combustion chamber in relation to a piston engine's. We can see that based on these numbers that it will take more air to hold the same power level as a piston engine. More air needs more fuel though.

The difference between a 10:1 afr is about 33% more fuel than a 15:1 afr. So now you know how much you can account for based on that. That's a sizable number. Most cars try to cruise right around 15:1 or so. However, time is also an important player in fuel usage. Specifically time at a certain rpm. Let's say you had a little engine that needed to run at a 10:1 afr to make that 40 hp to hold cruise speed. It's going to need 33% more fuel than the car that only needs a 15:1 afr. It's not as efficient. Cam timing, exhaust, intakes etc all effect efficency. The 10hp per lb air number is a generic baseline number. Each engine is different and obviously a car such as a Civic is much more efficient at cruising. We also need to consider that an a/f ratio and how much air and fuel is used is also a function of time or in simpler terms, rpm. If it took a higher load level at a lower rpm to make the same amount of power as a lower load level at a higher rpm, that doesn't mean that each needs the exact same amount of fuel. This is because of efficiency differences due to time and the amount of air/fuel being consumed in that time. Typically the lower the rpm you can hold a speed at, the better you'll do on fuel economy. As with everything there is a limit to this so don't get too technical on details.

We know the RX-8 has far more extreme gearing than any other car on the market in terms of final drive ratio. This means the Renesis is at a higher rpm over a greater amount of time more than most engines. Even if it was running at a leaner fuel mixture at these rpms's it is still a leaner a/f ratio over a greater amount of time and this alone may cancel out a richer a/f ratio over a shorter amount of time in another engine. We can see from this alone that the Renesis will be using more fuel than the average engine based on vehicle speed. Then we also factor in how much air the engine is actually using. In this regards it is not comparable to a 1.3 liter engine. It isn't even comparable to a 2.6 liter engine. Due to it's efficiency disadvantage based on how it uses air, it is closer to a 4 liter engine in terms of it's air consumption to fuel usage. Now some may say that a big 5.7 liter LS1 can still do way better than a 4 liter. The LS1 also cruises at a much lower rpm which takes alot less fuel over time than a 4 liter turning much faster. This accounts for much of the difference. Remember that fuel consumption is not directly related to power output. It is tied to efficiencey at a certain power level.

The LS1 is a very efficient engine. Can't take anything away from it. Everyone always compares the Renesis to it in terms of fuel economy but that's not very fair considering that you can't compare most other engines to it in that regards either if your only concern is size per mileage. In that regards it shames most which makes the rotary nothing special to compare it to. It wouldn't even be fair to a WRX to compare it's engine to an LS1. It'll beat a WRX in mileage on the highway. Let me guess, the WRX engine must suck? Nope. Compare what is really going on.

Get down to the science of it. It's obvious why the Renesis gets the mileage it does. There's nothing special about it, nothing surprising about it, and nothing new about it. It's a known fact that a rotary is a less efficent combustion engine than most piston engines. Comparing it to others is worthless though. We may as well compare all piston engines to others out there as well and ask why they all can't get proportional power levels as others. I don't see anyone bashing Ford based on the fact that their engines suck in terms of power and economy compared to Honda, the LS1, etc. They do if we are judging in terms of size.

The whole point of all of this is that these comparisons are all a waste of time. Usually by those who have limited knowledge on the subject with nothing better to do but with something to prove. Comparisons of the rotary engine to piston engines is a worthless things to talk about when determining if this car will keep selling well. All of these threads on total vehicle sales are a waste of time as well. These are all based on a person's opinion that the car should be selling more because other cars out there that they personally feel it is competition with have different sales numbers. The problem is that none of these people has any knowledge of what the car's projected sales are, none of them has any clue as to the vehicles profitability at those sales levels, and none of these people can be construed in any was as an expert or even a reliable consultant on the topic. It is always pure speculation and is almost always wrong.

The known fact is that the RX-8 sales are basically at pace with the Miata. Some may say this sucks. Others may say this is good. Keep in mind that the Miata is the best selling sports car of all time. Also keep in mind that Mazda does consider this car a sports car and that the RX-8 is faster than the Miata. Too all the people out there that don't consider the RX-8 fast enough to be a sports car, what is your excuse with the best selling sports car of all time? When you put it that way, is there really any relevance in comparing it to a WRX, 350Z, etc in terms of sales? I think not. Then again I think logically so that must be it.

RX8_GT

03-04-2006, 07:29 PM

Jeez people, the point of his post is that a 7.0L 505hp engine gets better gas mileage than the 1.3L in the RX-8. He is not comparing a corvette to an RX-8. Generally speaking, the bigger an engine, the more powerful it is and the more gas it uses. The rotary drinks gas like a big V8 but doesn't give you the same performance.

My 340whp STi gets better average gas mileage than we get out of the RX-8 on the highway.

You missed my statement "I would like to see Z06 real world mpg." I simply don't believe 16 to 26 mpg for a Z06 driven in any performance way.

A rotary engine is never going to get the mpg of a piston - but the performance is there if turbo-charged - like the Corvette. And based on weight and physical size (and thus midship position) the rotary engine is unique and very high performance. Performance is not simply a straight line or a series of left turns.

Right now - I'm looking at a poster noting the six straight IMSA GTU championships of the 1st Gen RX-7 - against Porshe and BMW and others.

Mazda has produced a rotary sports car since 1978 until this day. it may have not marketed one in the USA from 1996 to 2003 - but the rest of the world had one.

Renesis_8

03-04-2006, 07:30 PM

Nothing is perfect, most of the RX-8 owners know AND accept this fact, but you dont see them complain and cry about it, because the pros make up for the cons, and not only the pros on paper, it puts silly simles on their faces, they love this car, enough said.

They bought the RX-8 because of what the Mazda RX-8 have AND not have, they bought the <232hp 1.3L Rotary, that gets 16mpg simply because they love it.

Of course there are FAR more efficient engine than the renesis, but mileage alone just wont end the sales for RX-8, it'd be a combination of other things, including or excluding mileage.

There is no way around this problem, not until Mazda comes up with revisions to the Renesis, if mileage is bothering you that much, start appreciating what the RX-8 really is, take it the the track, find some twisties. Pretty sure that would leave some smiles on your face. If your still not satisfied, mayb this is not the car for you and its no biggie, we all+always learn by trial and error

RX8_GT

03-04-2006, 07:34 PM

Rotarygod has spoken. (Very well I must say.)

Renesis_8

03-04-2006, 07:42 PM

The whole point of all of this is that these comparisons are all a waste of time. Usually by those who have limited knowledge on the subject with nothing better to do but with something to prove. Comparisons of the rotary engine to piston engines is a worthless things to talk about when determining if this car will keep selling well. All of these threads on total vehicle sales are a waste of time as well. These are all based on a person's opinion that the car should be selling more because other cars out there that they personally feel it is competition with have different sales numbers. The problem is that none of these people has any knowledge of what the car's projected sales are, none of them has any clue as to the vehicles profitability at those sales levels, and none of these people can be construed in any was as an expert or even a reliable consultant on the topic. It is always pure speculation and is almost always wrong.

The known fact is that the RX-8 sales are basically at pace with the Miata. Some may say this sucks. Others may say this is good. Keep in mind that the Miata is the best selling sports car of all time. Also keep in mind that Mazda does consider this car a sports car and that the RX-8 is faster than the Miata. Too all the people out there that don't consider the RX-8 fast enough to be a sports car, what is your excuse with the best selling sports car of all time? When you put it that way, is there really any relevance in comparing it to a WRX, 350Z, etc in terms of sales? I think not. Then again I think logically so that must be it.

:kiss: